OOTS #954 - The Discussion Thread

[Mike Havran]

I like Roy casually holding the rope in one hand and furious halfling in the other.

Durkula proves that he's pretty well educated in religious knowledge. Was he automatically given ranks in Knowledge (religion) when he was birthed, or is that the result of studying Durkon's memories about him reading book? Probably the former.

[Sikon]

Okay. So, exploiting the divine treaty, HPoH can put an end to Thor's storm-tantrum with a simple Control Weather.

So... what's stopping Thor from starting it up again?

RAW. The effect of Control Weather lasts for 4d12 hours.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay. So, exploiting the divine treaty, HPoH can put an end to Thor's storm-tantrum with a simple Control Weather.

So... what's stopping Thor from starting it up again?

Technically, nothing, so long as he wait a for the spell's effects to end. That would take while, and by that time the High Priest of Hel would probably have prepared Control Weather again, meaning that starting it up again doesn't accomplish much.

[dtilque]

How does this work? The HPoT teleports to the area of the Mechane and SPLASH! Strangely armored dwarfs don't swim well and do so even worse when casting 10 minute casting time spells.

Alternately he teleports onto the Mechane where he's up close an personal with an epic threat AND is about to try to counteract the spells keeping the ship from being destroyed so the crew and OotS combine to kill him dead.

This second alternative won't work, since the Mechane is Dimensionally Locked

Not that it makes any difference,. The High Priest of Thor is not going to jump in to deliver a Deus ex.

[Quild]

###

I wanted to call for the last panel, but I thought about those times Durkon actually had the right spell prepared (like previous use of control weathe and meld into stone + holy) so I didn't.

I'm really disappointed at myself.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Last time he used it he saved V's life from the Linear Guild druid.

Which, in contrast, was a bit of real world logic overcoming rules lawyering to win... now rules lawyering is overcoming real world logic.

If Thor refuses the Durkula High Priest of Hel's spell, he can simply state that he is denying a Rogue without proper Use Magical Device and no Scroll or other Magical Item from wrongfully casting a spell he should not have. Durkon earned the levels, Durkon is a Cleric of Thor, denying a thief from exploiting his Priest is not denying a Cleric, it is denying a Rogue and Durkula's ECL - Durkon's Levels is not sufficient as a Rogue nor a Cleric to cast Control Weather. Hel already has violated the treaty, Thor can take whatever action he wishes against Durkula (Durkon died during noble combat defending his friends and allies, Durkon's Soul should have immediately gone to Valhalla, do not pass Hel, do not allow Durkula to collect Knowledge and Intel. The fact that Durkon's Soul is present for this argument and for Durkula to use to get the knowledge he needs to maintain this ruse is all multiple acts of violation)

Belkar has a point. Since when has Durkon ever been prepared for an eventuality other than "someone needs more hit points?"

Which, come to think of it, he technically can't be unprepared for, as a positive-energy-channeling cleric.

Exactly, Durkon can swap any spell he has prepared for an equal or lower level Cure <Whataver>/Heal Spell... likewise, Durkula can do the same for Inflict <Whatever>/Harm spell. Durkon also places his hand on his holy symbol and whispers the spells name rapidly and repeatedly to cast Control Weather, not extend his arms out and say the spell slowly. And we have yet to see him cast the spell without a Scroll. Belkar has loads of points, the guy that looks like Durkon just cast a spell that he has never been shown to know, had it prepared when it would be of little use until this very moment, and is casting it in a manner completely different from how Durkon casts it. Durkon tends to be a one-trick pony most of the time... "Thor's Might!", maybe occasionally he'll prep something to remedy a situation after the fact "Has save a scroll, for just such an emergency" (cause, despite needing sending, he still needs a spare scroll), has a special new toy that takes him forever to get to use like Holy Word: "HOLY", and the rest of the time he prepares stuff that doesn't even matter because he'll just swap them out for Cures and Heals... he even wasted like Three TURN UNDEADS because he is paranoid.

...I thought Belkar said that because the real Durkon woudn't actually need a spell to solve the problem, a prayer to Thor would do the trick. Only reason for him to prepare Control Weather in an area where his god control the frigging weather is if he wasn't a cleric of Thor anymore.

That is partly true, though see above for so many reasons why it should be obvious Durkula is not Durkon.

Actually, Rich has repeatedly stated he generally doesn't bother reading these threads.

Actually, he just states that he generally doesn't let what is said sway what he writes and draws, it is quite apparent that he does read the threads (especially because he will comment occasionally to clarify or end arguments... and accidentally trigger other arguments)

###

I wanted to call for the last panel, but I thought about those times Durkon actually had the right spell prepared (like previous use of control weathe and meld into stone + holy) so I didn't.

I'm really disappointed at myself.

As I pointed out, he didn't have control weather prepared, he had a scroll, which is less preparation and more having lots of options, since we see he likes to buy bunches of scrolls for other times. Also as I pointed out Holy Word was his new Toy, and as for Meld Stone, that was more likely part of Roy's brilliant plan or advise on spells to have since they were headed to find the Temple, and less of Durkon choosing to prepare it with the intent to use it.

[LuPuWei]

Gooooooo Belkar!!!

[Cerlis]

I wouldn't bet all of my chips on that. Since this comic took a little while longer to get done than the others before it, I would bet Rich didn't foresee every good point brought up in the last comic's thread.

Not to mention that Durkula's counter-argument is a bit of a stretch - Millions of dwarves dying of diseases or toxins is in no way, shape or form comparable to one deity-powered thunderstorm in a little corner of the ocean, where you could have a lot less than 100 casualties. Deities do not have so poor diplomacy skills as to say: "Oh look, Thor refused to let my cleric control weather THAT ONE TIME, I guess I'm free to unleash death and suffering on millions then, it's his fault". They wouldn't get away with that.

I think it would be best to just move on with the plot and stop trying to justify the whole thing.

other than the fact that you are trying to attribute logic and reason to a bunch of immortal beings that are forced to act a certain way because they are avatars of certain domains (#Everworld)

I'm going to say you have it backwards.

If Thor is allowed to keep other clerics from altering his domain, then Hel is allowed to keep other clerics from altering her domain. She doesn't need to cause rampant disease and death. It already happens, and is prevented from getting to Real Life bubonic plague levels because there exists clerics (and even powerful wizards) who are able to magically cure it through their deity.

[Neoriceisgood]

Watch vampire Durkon be the reason Belkar dies.

[warmachine]

That theology should be considered part of the standard D&D mythology.

It's still possible Varsuvius knows theology and that a cleric of Thor shouldn't need a spell to stop a Thor controlled storm.

[Amphiox]

Thor really has lots of ways he can get around the rules here.

As the most extreme example, he can create a series of lightning bolts outside of the Control Weather's area-of-effect, and let the sound waves of the thunder travel to the Mechane, and he can time the lightning so that the sound of the thunder flat out says "THIS IS THOR SPEAKING. THE VAMPIRE IS NOT MY CLERIC."

Not that this is likely to happen, as that would be a true Deus ex Machina....

[thereaper]

Which, in contrast, was a bit of real world logic overcoming rules lawyering to win... now rules lawyering is overcoming real world logic.

If Thor refuses the Durkula High Priest of Hel's spell, he can simply state that he is denying a Rogue without proper Use Magical Device and no Scroll or other Magical Item from wrongfully casting a spell he should not have. Durkon earned the levels, Durkon is a Cleric of Thor, denying a thief from exploiting his Priest is not denying a Cleric, it is denying a Rogue and Durkula's ECL - Durkon's Levels is not sufficient as a Rogue nor a Cleric to cast Control Weather. Hel already has violated the treaty, Thor can take whatever action he wishes against Durkula (Durkon died during noble combat defending his friends and allies, Durkon's Soul should have immediately gone to Valhalla, do not pass Hel, do not allow Durkula to collect Knowledge and Intel. The fact that Durkon's Soul is present for this argument and for Durkula to use to get the knowledge he needs to maintain this ruse is all multiple acts of violation)



Exactly, Durkon can swap any spell he has prepared for an equal or lower level Cure <Whataver>/Heal Spell... likewise, Durkula can do the same for Inflict <Whatever>/Harm spell. Durkon also places his hand on his holy symbol and whispers the spells name rapidly and repeatedly to cast Control Weather, not extend his arms out and say the spell slowly. And we have yet to see him cast the spell without a Scroll. Belkar has loads of points, the guy that looks like Durkon just cast a spell that he has never been shown to know, had it prepared when it would be of little use until this very moment, and is casting it in a manner completely different from how Durkon casts it. Durkon tends to be a one-trick pony most of the time... "Thor's Might!", maybe occasionally he'll prep something to remedy a situation after the fact "Has save a scroll, for just such an emergency" (cause, despite needing sending, he still needs a spare scroll), has a special new toy that takes him forever to get to use like Holy Word: "HOLY", and the rest of the time he prepares stuff that doesn't even matter because he'll just swap them out for Cures and Heals... he even wasted like Three TURN UNDEADS because he is paranoid.




That is partly true, though see above for so many reasons why it should be obvious Durkula is not Durkon.




Actually, he just states that he generally doesn't let what is said sway what he writes and draws, it is quite apparent that he does read the threads (especially because he will comment occasionally to clarify or end arguments... and accidentally trigger other arguments)



As I pointed out, he didn't have control weather prepared, he had a scroll, which is less preparation and more having lots of options, since we see he likes to buy bunches of scrolls for other times. Also as I pointed out Holy Word was his new Toy, and as for Meld Stone, that was more likely part of Roy's brilliant plan or advise on spells to have since they were headed to find the Temple, and less of Durkon choosing to prepare it with the intent to use it.

I'm sorry, what?

The rules of vampirism are quite established now. The vampire gets Durkon's levels, because he controls Durkon now.

[Nawaki]

I guess it is hard to listen to voice of reason when it is represented by midget psychopatic bloodthirsty maniac

[Dracon1us]

Well slap me in the face and call me a crazy man, I actually have a theory here.

Spoiler

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Belkar's determined (coincidentally correct) Durkon hating will force Darkon to kill him, fulfilling Belkar's prophecy. This may or may not result in Darkon being exposed.

now that you revelead it, it won't happen



nice theory
nice strip

[Finagle]

Thor broke the rules for Durkon already, and all that happened was that Tiger chewed him out. Now, it's going to rupture the cosmic balance and cause millions of deaths?

I liked the AD&D alignment chart in the background, that's a nice touch.

Again, we're treated to rules minutiae when the author claims that he hates the rules. Kinda weird that it keeps happening.

A bit of a letdown to find that bubonic plague and smallpox exist in OOTS-world. I had hoped there would be cool-sounding fantasy world diseases.

Durkula sure is setting himself up for a fall by quoting the rules to Durkon.

[zimmerwald1915]

Thor broke the rules for Durkon already, and all that happened was that Tiger chewed him out. Now, it's going to rupture the cosmic balance and cause millions of deaths?

Er, no. Thor tried to give Durkon extra speed like he asked, but Durkon did not get his extra speed. The logical inference would be that Tiger intervened before Thor could break the rules for Durkon. His comment about "breaking the rules for a follower" was more likely referring to his actions in Cliffport rather than any completed rule-breaking in Azure City.

[Icedaemon]

I wouldn't bet all of my chips on that. Since this comic took a little while longer to get done than the others before it, I would bet Rich didn't foresee every good point brought up in the last comic's thread.

Not to mention that Durkula's counter-argument is a bit of a stretch - Millions of dwarves dying of diseases or toxins is in no way, shape or form comparable to one deity-powered thunderstorm in a little corner of the ocean, where you could have a lot less than 100 casualties. Deities do not have so poor diplomacy skills as to say: "Oh look, Thor refused to let my cleric control weather THAT ONE TIME, I guess I'm free to unleash death and suffering on millions then, it's his fault". They wouldn't get away with that.

I think it would be best to just move on with the plot and stop trying to justify the whole thing.

I believe the argument was more along the lines of "If one god revokes another's cleric(s) licence to cast spells in his domain and breaks the contract, then others may treat the contract null and void. What happens then, if the goddess of disease has sole dominion over that domain?"

[Ramien]

I almost feel bad for Lurky Corpsewhiskers. Here's why.

Spoiler

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Eventually he's going to slip up. Someone will catch on to his masquerade. When that happens, he's going to be the subject of a very unique beatdown. First, from the outside, when someone strong enough to fight him beats him, then from the inside, when Durkon starts to tear down his mental defense, capitalizing on the weaknesses revealed during that beat down. As for who will deliver the beat down, I've got four possibilities, from most satisfying to least:

• Belkar. Just to let Death's Little Helper be right for once. Immensely satisfying, but unlikely unless he scores some mental protection.
• Durkon's mom. Lady's too awesome to get just one page.
• Roy. "I can't believe I let you bite my neck!"
• O-Chul. We've seen him prove his nobility as a paladin, and his toughness, but I'd love to see him actually win a fight.

[Nenec]

I can't help but love Belkar more and more, he's always to the point. But that's nothing new.
What's new to be is Durkula's competence, I always thought there was something he ignored and Durkon would have bested him cause of that, but nay.
I'm still impatient though to see the spell effect, how many pages will the casting go on for? I like explainations and all but I'm too curious to see how that resolves.

[Domino Quartz]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, thanks.

Your link is still broken - there's no ":" in your "http//".

[Kyle Lionheart]

What I find most interesting about the last few strips is not so much Lurky's actions against Thor's storm(fairly predictable after all) , but the fact that the Storm is there, which is a strong hint that Thor is perfectly aware of the current situation. Now, if he has at least a sprinkle of intelligence and restraint,

Spoiler

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all Thor needs to do is contact his own dwarven high priest, informing him about the situation. It's been already established that this is possible, if not the norm for High Priests, in the conversation between Lurky and Hel.
The OOTS intends to ask the dwarves' permission to travel through their territory, so if the High Priest of Thor is properly instructed, he can just have a private word with Roy when the Order lands and explain how things are. Our favorite fighter might be in denial, but I doubt he would ignore the words of the recognized High Priest of a (Lawful?)Good deity. Then, the party can decide what to do, maybe even pretending to still not know for a while, and try to figure out Hel's plans.

Of course, this is too simple of a solution, so I fully expect Thor to not show the required intelligence and restraint, or perhaps the Dwarves to not respond as expected. We need drama after all

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, Thor doesn't have to tell the High Priest of Thor anything to get Durkula thrown out of the dwarven kingdom.

He's a VAMPIRE! That's reason enough for the clerics of Thor to turn him and smite him. They don't have to sit there through 'wait, I'm really Durkon!' They can simply shoot first and ask questions later. Durkula could be hit by any number of holy warhammers of disruption just for being a vampire.

As a side note, neither Durkula nor Durkon know Durkon is actually welcome in the dwarven kingdoms. The letter that was to be transported to him by Miko got eaten by MiTD. Durkula may attempt to sneak in when it is not needed, which will cause further issues.

[Kyle Lionheart]

Ya know, Thor doesn't have to tell the High Priest of Thor anything to get Durkula thrown out of the dwarven kingdom.

He's a VAMPIRE! That's reason enough for the clerics of Thor to turn him and smite him. They don't have to sit there through 'wait, I'm really Durkon!' They can simply shoot first and ask questions later. Durkula could be hit by any number of holy warhammers of disruption just for being a vampire.

As a side note, neither Durkula nor Durkon know Durkon is actually welcome in the dwarven kingdoms. The letter that was to be transported to him by Miko got eaten by MiTD. Durkula may attempt to sneak in when it is not needed, which will cause further issues.

Yes, and this is exactly the problem as just throwing out Durkula/Lurky would not accomplish much from Thor's point of view. And why some warning from him would be a good thing.

Against a mid-high level adventuring party such as the OOTS, what you suggest would probably end with a fierce fight that might actually end badly for the dwarves, or at best, with the Order escaping back on the Mechane and either going another way or trespassing by swooping past. Diplomacy and awareness of the situation, on the other hand, would work very well here. (which is exactly why I doubt it will happen, but still).

[Angelalex242]

...eh. I'm still thinking the dwarves are just gonna call of duty black ops on Durkula and attempt to smite him down with extreme prejudice. No questions asked, no quarter asked or given, just a straight up beatdown. If the Order gets in the way, most of them have lousy will saves, a few hold persons will take care of that.

...so, yeah. Durkula arrives, the priests of Thor yell MORTAL KOMBAT! and away we go.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Your link is still broken - there's no ":" in your "http//".

It looks fine to me.

[smuchmuch]

Hmm, I think Durkula might be slightly overselling Hel position here (declaring the whole of bubooning plague uncurable for a single strorm doesn't seem quite a fair trade) but I guess the genral non interference principle is sound.

[thanna93]

So basically, Durkula pointed 2 possible outcomes to the current situation:

either Control Weather works, and the OOTS remains clueless as to the existence of the HPoH, or it doesn't and death and destruction will happen in the North...

I don't know, the second scenario sounds promising

[Angelalex242]

...And THAT just reminded me of something.

Wasn't Durkon prophesied to bring death and destruction to his homeland?

Suppose Thor DOES cross the line...and help Durkon fulfill that prophecy. Because unknown to Durkula...Thor actually DOES care about Durkon that much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmm, I think Durkula might be slightly overselling Hel position here (declaring the whole of bubooning plague uncurable for a single strorm doesn't seem quite a fair trade) but I guess the genral non interference principle is sound.

The point isn't that there would be a trade-off. The point is that the treaty would be broken.

[strijder20]

Hmm, I think Durkula might be slightly overselling Hel position here (declaring the whole of bubooning plague uncurable for a single strorm doesn't seem quite a fair trade) but I guess the genral non interference principle is sound.

No, Hel wouldn't exercise an extra power by doing that to the bubonic plague, she would just deny the other gods' clerics from interfering in her domain. It's really the same thing as Thor did - the greater effect has little to do with it.