OOTS #954 - The Discussion Thread

[Canuck617]

I believe that most people, when referencing that strip, are referencing Durkon's beliefs toward storms and not what actually happens in most cases. In this case, I believe that the storm is related to the High Priest of Hel's presence on the Mechane. I also think that Control Weather is something that Durkon would do, although it can be hard to judge from.just that one strip.

Yay! I was quoted! (No, I don't get out on the internet very much.) Also, you could be right; I'm far too lazy to read that deeply into what everyone is saying, although I read a little bit, which was probably why I may be mistaken, so I'll defer to you here.

Forgive me if I am skeptical about the validity of your faith in Durkon, but I'm just not seeing any evidence which supports your conclusion.

You are forgiven, my child. :P

Durkon is unlikely to be wrong? The same Durkon who has low skill points in Knowledge: Religion? The same Durkon who has never before been right when it comes to correlating the actions of his deity with actual deific cosmology? The same Durkon who had to be reminded by the HPoH of the reason why Thor could not interfere with the Control Weather spell cast by the HPoH? The same Durkon who appeared to be nodding off in the actual past life memory sequence, which the HPoH was still able to access, where he was being taught the exact thing that the HPoH had to re-teach to him? This is the guy you feel is unlikely to be wrong about an interpretation of Thor's will with regards to storms?

My overtly overly favourable stance on Durkon aside, I think it's more a matter of Thor actually using storms to warn rather than Durkon being right about it. Much as someone alluded to Belkar's correctness about HPoH being more akin to a broken clock that's right this time of the day rather than Belkar actually being astute, I think it's something rather similar for Durkon in this case. He clearly doesn't have a firm grasp on his own religion (see spoiler below), but he just happens to be right this one very crucial time. If I were Thor, and my believer had to be right just one time, I would also make that one time absolutely vital for the survival of the world, which this very well may be. I'm not saying he's doing exactly this, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is. Oh, great, now I'm adding to the very same epileptic theory tree which I defamed before. This is why I stay off the internet.

Note: This doesn't really have to do with anything, hence the spoiler tag.

Spoiler

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I can definitely relate to Durkon not knowing that much about his own religion, but I am learning. Yeah, go ahead and laugh, internet. [Rant] You're probably the same people who were honking at me when I got a flat tire on the way home from work rather than that one guy who pulled over to see if I needed help and stopped traffic so I didn't have to drive as far to the gas station when I found out that my SPARE was also flat and needed air. Seriously, I don't mind you all laughing, but you people who were honking can go fornicate yourselves with multiple cacti. [/Rant] Also, in addition to being that guy who always played the LG cleric of Pelor, Durkon is my favourite character for the LG life he led and the LG death he died. If I'm half as LG as Durkon was, I'll be happy.

Spoiler

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No, I don't care which half, but I'll aim to live the LG life even if I'm to die the LG death.

Yay spoiler tags!

[DaggerPen]

I will be honest, I am really losing the thread of this whole coincidence argument.

From what I have gathered so far:

1. From a metanalysis perspective: this storm is very, very unlikely to be a coincidence. Blundering into a storm in Thor's territory and needing to quell it is just a thing that could happen - after all, the storm that hampered the Order's fight with Miko was shown to be just a coincidence, theories about Thor being smarter than he seems notwithstanding - but this goes beyond that. A storm suddenly formed exactly as the Order got into Thor's territory despite not having been visible from outside of it (meaning that the storm started literally as soon as they entered the area where Thor could smite them all with lightning), and a highly damaging bolt of lightning went AROUND the lightning rod as though specifically guided to do as much damage to the ship as Thor was allowed to do, exactly when one of his vampirized former clerics entered his territory. Anything's possible, but I would be amazed if this were revealed in-narrative to be a coincidence.

2. Trying to make the storm go away with a simple "Control Weather" is out of character for Durkon. It does not matter that the storm is actively impeding the ship - the storm that interfered with the Miko fight was actively hampering the Order against an opponent who, by all appearances, was trying to kill them without any grounds, but Durkon still surrendered because of what he thought Thor was trying to tell him. On a meta level, we know he was wrong, but in-narrative, Durkon - and indeed the rest of the Order - has every reason to believe that Durkon was right. As unpleasant as Miko herself may have been, it was through talking with her that the Order were led on their quest for the Gates, which Thor has a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of, rather than allowing an evil sorcerer and the cleric of an evil god to seize control of the Gates for who knows what purposes. So, not knowing that the HPOH is not Durkon, would I find this behavior suspicious coming from Durkon? Yes, absolutely. And I'm saying that as someone who was a vehement advocate of the "Durkula is still Durkon!" theory before the HPOH reveal. Were Durkon really Durkon, I would expect him to respond to a storm like this with "Thor's nuts, tha storm is tryin' ta sink us som'thin fierce! Thor must be tryin' ta tell us som'thin! Quick, land tha ship! Thar may be som'thin tha can help us below, or else thar's an enemy in front o' us who'll surprise us if'n we stay tha course!"

3. That having been said, I'm not at all surprised that the Order haven't caught on to this suspicious behavior. The ones who know Durkon well desperately want to believe that everything is okay and thus are likely to ignore any signs otherwise that can be readily handwaved, while Vaarsuvius is uninterested in Durkon's religious philosophy, Belkar just doesn't know any better, and the crew of the Mechane, in addition to knowing nothing about Durkon, are primarily used to interacting with storms as drama points to be assuaged with offerings from their resident low-level cleric/non-cleric person whose job it is to make offerings.

[Red XIV]

I wouldn't bet all of my chips on that. Since this comic took a little while longer to get done than the others before it, I would bet Rich didn't foresee every good point brought up in the last comic's thread.

Not to mention that Durkula's counter-argument is a bit of a stretch - Millions of dwarves dying of diseases or toxins is in no way, shape or form comparable to one deity-powered thunderstorm in a little corner of the ocean, where you could have a lot less than 100 casualties. Deities do not have so poor diplomacy skills as to say: "Oh look, Thor refused to let my cleric control weather THAT ONE TIME, I guess I'm free to unleash death and suffering on millions then, it's his fault". They wouldn't get away with that.

I think it would be best to just move on with the plot and stop trying to justify the whole thing.

Apparently it's a matter of, should one deity violate the Cleric rules, all other deities can do the same because the "treaty" would be nullified. At that point, Hel and the other Evil-aligned gods would have unlimited intervention among the mortals. But so would Thor, Odin, and all the other Good-aligned gods, so whether that would actually play in Hel's favor is uncertain. Especially since, as has been made clear many times, "Good" and "Evil" are not a pair of unified teams. But it would be such a catastrophe for the mortals that Thor's not going to risk it.


On the other hand, there's nothing to stop Thor from continuing to throw thunderstorms at Durkula every 4d12 hours if he wants to. Unless of course he gets distracted by something else, and this being Thor that's not unlikely.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I will be honest, I am really losing the thread of this whole coincidence argument.

From what I have gathered so far:

1. From a metanalysis perspective: this storm is very, very unlikely to be a coincidence. Blundering into a storm in Thor's territory and needing to quell it is just a thing that could happen - after all, the storm that hampered the Order's fight with Miko was shown to be just a coincidence, theories about Thor being smarter than he seems notwithstanding - but this goes beyond that. A storm suddenly formed exactly as the Order got into Thor's territory despite not having been visible from outside of it (meaning that the storm started literally as soon as they entered the area where Thor could smite them all with lightning), and a highly damaging bolt of lightning went AROUND the lightning rod as though specifically guided to do as much damage to the ship as Thor was allowed to do, exactly when one of his vampirized former clerics entered his territory. Anything's possible, but I would be amazed if this were revealed in-narrative to be a coincidence.

2. Trying to make the storm go away with a simple "Control Weather" is out of character for Durkon. It does not matter that the storm is actively impeding the ship - the storm that interfered with the Miko fight was actively hampering the Order against an opponent who, by all appearances, was trying to kill them without any grounds, but Durkon still surrendered because of what he thought Thor was trying to tell him. On a meta level, we know he was wrong, but in-narrative, Durkon - and indeed the rest of the Order - has every reason to believe that Durkon was right. As unpleasant as Miko herself may have been, it was through talking with her that the Order were led on their quest for the Gates, which Thor has a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of, rather than allowing an evil sorcerer and the cleric of an evil god to seize control of the Gates for who knows what purposes. So, not knowing that the HPOH is not Durkon, would I find this behavior suspicious coming from Durkon? Yes, absolutely. And I'm saying that as someone who was a vehement advocate of the "Durkula is still Durkon!" theory before the HPOH reveal. Were Durkon really Durkon, I would expect him to respond to a storm like this with "Thor's nuts, tha storm is tryin' ta sink us som'thin fierce! Thor must be tryin' ta tell us som'thin! Quick, land tha ship! Thar may be som'thin tha can help us below, or else thar's an enemy in front o' us who'll surprise us if'n we stay tha course!"

3. That having been said, I'm not at all surprised that the Order haven't caught on to this suspicious behavior. The ones who know Durkon well desperately want to believe that everything is okay and thus are likely to ignore any signs otherwise that can be readily handwaved, while Vaarsuvius is uninterested in Durkon's religious philosophy, Belkar just doesn't know any better, and the crew of the Mechane, in addition to knowing nothing about Durkon, are primarily used to interacting with storms as drama points to be assuaged with offerings from their resident low-level cleric/non-cleric person whose job it is to make offerings.

I think you have summed up all the debates very nicely. Only 1. is the coincidence argument, though; the others aren't part of that. Personally, I don't see using Control Weather as all that out of character for Durkon, but I agree that if it was the rest of the Order would be unlikely to notice, for various reasons.

[mouser9169]

In fact, before I read the post that started this off, I was reflecting that it was something of a masterstroke to have a Herman's Head situation going on. It lets us have BOTH Durkon and Durkula be seen and heard from, as opposed to just one or the other.

The only times I can remember Boo taking the time to talk to someone inside his head when he sucked in Vegito, breaking the fusion in the process, and they were actively trying to kill him from the inside (hmmm... this leaves open possibilities, could Belkar somehow "die", get in there, and try to free Durkon).

The other was in GT when he sucked in Hercule - but that was Hercule's idea (was some good back and forth though: the champ thinking on his feet in the midst of the crisis).


Having written this, I'm thinking Rich may go further with the "Boo" thing: Belkar gets killed in a way that gets him inside Durkula's head, and he goes and saves Durkon. Belkar may or may not be raised after that - I hope he is, the comic would be much less without him. If he does die permanently, I think that will signal the official "wrapping things up" part of the comic.


Edit: and why is everyone ignoring Roy's response?
He seems suddenly suspicious as well.

[Kish]

Edit: and why is everyone ignoring Roy's response?
He seems suddenly suspicious as well.

You're one of only two people I've seen interpret Roy's line (accompanied as it is by restraining Belkar) as "I am for some reason upset that Durkon is still casting the spell that made me smile last strip, rather than being upset that Belkar is trying to stab a party member who is also the cleric who is calming the storm."

Whatever does or does not happen to Belkar--and I will note that his death and resurrection would by no means fulfill the Oracle's prophecy--Rich has stated that there is the book which just started and one more book left in the OotS story.

[Snails]

The Giant is playing his cards close to his chest with respect to what Roy is really thinking. There is plenty of room to posit Roy is either fooled completely or not fooled at all.

Keep in mind that just because one might agree with Belkar on the moral status of Durkon as he appears before them, does not mean immediate violence would be wise. There are advantages to accepting an apparent alliance.

[DaggerPen]

I feel like the HPOH plot will be resolved by the end of this book... while I can't say that its effects won't carry into the next book in more than just character development, I feel like if it weren't going to be resolved until the next book, we'd have a bit more of a slow burn, pacing-wise. So many pages focusing on it right at the book start makes me think that the HPOH is toast by the end of this book, whatever state it'll leave Durkon in.

[Dire Llama]

Loved the shoutout to 1e chart of the alignments on the chalkboard in the third panel.

Now that's Old School.

Once again Belkar is the voice of reason. Er ...

[Vinyadan]

I just wish to know where the little creep is going now that he's walking away from Durkon And if in that Soulspace there's just enough metaphysical room for walking away for each other when winning an argument.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Giant is playing his cards close to his chest with respect to what Roy is really thinking. There is plenty of room to posit Roy is either fooled completely or not fooled at all.

Keep in mind that just because one might agree with Belkar on the moral status of Durkon as he appears before them, does not mean immediate violence would be wise. There are advantages to accepting an apparent alliance.

Yeah, I think that with comments like "our cleric is in the shop" and "I just... think it might be more complicated than that" Roy is not entirely trusting of Durkon. He is still willing to believe the best in him, but he might just be holding onto him until they find a Cleric that can cast Resurrection.

[Jay R]

Once again Belkar is the voice of reason. Er ...

People keep acting like this represents a major change in Belkar's point of view. I don't see it.

There's been some change, sure, but Belkar's plan is to kill what's in front of him, just like it's always been.

The vampire doesn't have green skin, but he does have fangs. So Belkar proposes to kill him. How different is that from panel two of this strip, ten years ago?

[Kish]

People keep acting like this represents a major change in Belkar's point of view. I don't see it.

Thank you.

I would also add that arguing consistently for "Assume the vampire should be destroyed immediately and grab whatever is happening as evidence for this, including either success or failure quelling a storm" is a far cry from being the voice of reason. Belkar is a stopped clock; he's lucky this time in that the time actually is "midnight and flashing," but he'd be far more likely to convince someone of that fact if he wasn't broadcasting so loudly, "I don't actually care about evidence, I'm just throwing everything I can find at the wall to see if something sticks."

[Flashy]

People keep acting like this represents a major change in Belkar's point of view. I don't see it.

There's been some change, sure, but Belkar's plan is to kill what's in front of him, just like it's always been.

The vampire doesn't have green skin, but he does have fangs. So Belkar proposes to kill him. How different is that from panel two of this strip, ten years ago?

The point is less that Belkar is acting differently and more that his motivations have changed. This is the first time we have ever seen Belkar act with any degree of interest in the well being of another sapient creature. The sacrifice Durkon made in saving Belkar's life is the crux of the most substantial character development we have seen Belkar undergo. Belkar isn't trying to destroy the HPOH because he's afraid of it or because he thinks it's evil (like he'd care), he's trying to destroy it because he sees it as an abomination possessing the body of the only person to ever selflessly do something really meaningful for him. It's not that the vampire is a desecration, it's that it's a desecration OF DURKON. Before the fight between Malak and Durkon at Girard's gate I can't imagine that Belkar would have been anything but deeply amused by an evil and vampiric Durkon. I mean, consider his reaction to Darth Vaarsuvius.

[Keltest]

The point is less that Belkar is acting differently and more that his motivations have changed. This is the first time we have ever seen Belkar act with any degree of interest in the well being of another sapient creature. The sacrifice Durkon made in saving Belkar's life is the crux of the most substantial character development we have seen Belkar undergo. Belkar isn't trying to destroy the HPOH because he's afraid of it or because he thinks it's evil (like he'd care), he's trying to destroy it because he sees it as an abomination possessing the body of the only person to ever selflessly do something really meaningful for him. It's not that the vampire is a desecration, it's that it's a desecration OF DURKON. Before the fight between Malak and Durkon at Girard's gate I can't imagine that Belkar would have been anything but deeply amused by an evil and vampiric Durkon. I mean, consider his reaction to Darth Vaarsuvius.

Sadly, we don't actually know that. For all we know he could just be grasping at straws to kill the guy who turned him into a juice cup.

[Peelee]

The point is less that Belkar is acting differently and more that his motivations have changed. This is the first time we have ever seen Belkar act with any degree of interest in the well being of another sapient creature. The sacrifice Durkon made in saving Belkar's life is the crux of the most substantial character development we have seen Belkar undergo. Belkar isn't trying to destroy the HPOH because he's afraid of it or because he thinks it's evil (like he'd care), he's trying to destroy it because he sees it as an abomination possessing the body of the only person to ever selflessly do something really meaningful for him. It's not that the vampire is a desecration, it's that it's a desecration OF DURKON. Before the fight between Malak and Durkon at Girard's gate I can't imagine that Belkar would have been anything but deeply amused by an evil and vampiric Durkon. I mean, consider his reaction to Darth Vaarsuvius.

He's not acting in the interest of a sapient creature so much as he is acting against the interest of a sapient creature. Remember, nobody in-universe quite knows how vampirization works, regarding the "Durkon's soul is trapped in his body." Belkar has no idea. He just really hates the vampire, and wants him dead. So really, business as usual.

[Snails]

He's not acting in the interest of a sapient creature so much as he is acting against the interest of a sapient creature. Remember, nobody in-universe quite knows how vampirization works, regarding the "Durkon's soul is trapped in his body." Belkar has no idea. He just really hates the vampire, and wants him dead. So really, business as usual.

The beauty of the scenario is it is perfectly logical for Roy to jump to the conclusion that Belkar is just being the same old bloodthirsty thug we are all used to. Note that we do not actually know Roy is thinking that way, it is just the obvious guess. Roy could well be thinking "Shut up, Belkar. I cannot explain. Do not upset this truce by making me tip my hand before the time is right." We do not know.

As for your reasoning, it is irrelevant and arguably circular. It is okay for Roy to make that guess. But we, the audience, cannot hold it against Belkar that he jumped to a conclusion that happens to be 100% on the money.

[Peelee]

Roy could well be thinking "Shut up, Belkar. I cannot explain. Do not upset this truce by making me tip my hand before the time is right." We do not know.

For the record, I do believe this exact scenario is what's going on.

As for your reasoning, it is irrelevant and arguably circular.

Can you explain how it is circular? By my reasoning, nobody in the world knows that the original soul is captured in the vampirized body => Belkar specifically does not know this => Belkar is not specifically attempting to help Durkon. It all looks quite linear to me.

It is okay for Roy to make that guess. But we, the audience, cannot hold it against Belkar that he jumped to a conclusion that happens to be 100% on the money.

Why not?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Another problem with HPoH's ruse is that it means the lightning strike makes no sense. That lightning rods are expected to function means lightning normally follows natural laws, meaning lightning rods prevent lightning strikes unless there is divine intervention.

Manifestly not true. We had it happen in town just yesterday. A lightning bolt 'missed' two lightning rods, hit the roof of a building and started a fire. Thor was not involved at all.

[Emperordaniel]

Manifestly not true. We had it happen in town just yesterday. A lightning bolt 'missed' two lightning rods, hit the roof of a building and started a fire. Thor was not involved at all.

How do you know there wasn't a Dwarven vampire cleric in there at the time?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The point is less that Belkar is acting differently and more that his motivations have changed. This is the first time we have ever seen Belkar act with any degree of interest in the well being of another sapient creature. The sacrifice Durkon made in saving Belkar's life is the crux of the most substantial character development we have seen Belkar undergo. Belkar isn't trying to destroy the HPOH because he's afraid of it or because he thinks it's evil (like he'd care), he's trying to destroy it because he sees it as an abomination possessing the body of the only person to ever selflessly do something really meaningful for him. It's not that the vampire is a desecration, it's that it's a desecration OF DURKON. Before the fight between Malak and Durkon at Girard's gate I can't imagine that Belkar would have been anything but deeply amused by an evil and vampiric Durkon. I mean, consider his reaction to Darth Vaarsuvius.

Belkar has absolutely no evidence that the changes in Durkon involve possession. Currently, he is grasping at straws to find reasons to kill Durkon.

[Aurabolt]

So, okay. The spell can be cast. That makes sense due to the treaty. However, now we have a problem with power context.

Thor is the God of Storms. Its in his portoflio, and he's the one casting the spell.

This is some (albeit powerful) Cleric of Hel who is still technically mortal and holds the usual constraints of power associated to mortals, alongside good hard work and faith.

Unless he was an Epic Level Caster-which can tend to break the laws of gods and men normally- he does not have the sheer strength or skill in his magic to break the hold over the sky compared to the ability associated to the God of Storms.

In a purely magical contest between Gods and non-epic mortal beings, the god wins because they are manifesting forces that a mortal can barely comprehend, much less control.

Honestly? At this point, I expect Durkon's body to be struck by a lighting-shaped backhanded pimp slap, and a booming voice in raucous laughter.

[Keltest]

So, okay. The spell can be cast. That makes sense due to the treaty. However, now we have a problem with power context.

Thor is the God of Storms. Its in his portoflio, and he's the one casting the spell.

This is some (albeit powerful) Cleric of Hel who is still technically mortal and holds the usual constraints of power associated to mortals, alongside good hard work and faith.

Unless he was an Epic Level Caster-which can tend to break the laws of gods and men normally- he does not have the sheer strength or skill in his magic to break the hold over the sky compared to the ability associated to the God of Storms.

In a purely magical contest between Gods and non-epic mortal beings, the god wins because they are manifesting forces that a mortal can barely comprehend, much less control.

Honestly? At this point, I expect Durkon's body to be struck by a lighting-shaped backhanded pimp slap, and a booming voice in raucous laughter.

Its not a battle. Control Weather just happens. AFAIK, the last one to cast it gets the control.

[Kish]

Casting the spell?

Since when does Thor cast spells?

[Aurabolt]

Actually had to pull out Deities and Demigods again for this. Such a fun book. ^_^

If Thor is actively casting a Divine Storm or Control Weather as a spell-like ability (at 28th level, no less, JEEZ this book is so much fun.) casting a counter control weather from a mortal cleric would not matter, unless Thor was not actively paying attention. Since he's kinda interested in the fate of the universe if the god-killing Snarl manages to get out, I get the feeling that he's interested in seeing that quest succeed, especially when he has a active hand through Durkon.

If he isn't actively paying attention, then it could be broken with a Caster Level check against something the forties. As far as we know, the Hel!Durkon isn't an epic caster.

I'm still calling for a lighting hand to pimp slap him.

[Jay R]

Can you explain how it is circular? By my reasoning, nobody in the world knows that the original soul is captured in the vampirized body => Belkar specifically does not know this => Belkar is not specifically attempting to help Durkon. It all looks quite linear to me.

That's true; Belkar doesn't know where Durkon's original soul is. But that is irrelevant. He knows that if they kill the vampire and then find somebody who can cast resurrection, they will get Durkon back.

[Keltest]

That's true; Belkar doesn't know where Durkon's original soul is. But that is irrelevant. He knows that if they kill the vampire and then find somebody who can cast resurrection, they will get Durkon back.

the thing is Belkar doesn't actually know that Lurky isn't Durkon. He may or may not suspect, or he may simply not want it to be true so that he can go all out on the vampire.

[zimmerwald1915]

the thing is Belkar doesn't actually know that Lurky isn't Durkon. He may or may not suspect, or he may simply not want it to be true so that he can go all out on the vampire.

He might not know empirically, but he believes that the vampire isn't Durkon. If he didn't, he wouldn't keep saying so.

[Kish]

Actually had to pull out Deities and Demigods again for this. Such a fun book. ^_^

If Thor is actively casting a Divine Storm or Control Weather as a spell-like ability (at 28th level, no less, JEEZ this book is so much fun.)

Wait, you're now suggesting both that Thor is casting a spell and that the Thor in OotS is from Deities and Demigods?

I think you're wrong about both.

Ironically, the people who are arguing that the High Priest of Hel should not be able to override a god are also the people who, from my perspective, are diminishing what a god is, effectively reducing Thor from "the source of all Northern weather" to "the biggest bully on the weather playground." The storm is Thor's storm because it's Northern weather. The question that occurred to the people on the Mechane was never, "Is this a natural storm which means not created by a god, or something created by a god which means not natural?"--it was, "Are we still in the West, making this storm Adad's storm like every storm in the West, or are we in the North, making this storm Thor's storm like every storm in the North?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually had to pull out Deities and Demigods again for this. Such a fun book. ^_^

If Thor is actively casting a Divine Storm or Control Weather as a spell-like ability (at 28th level, no less, JEEZ this book is so much fun.) casting a counter control weather from a mortal cleric would not matter, unless Thor was not actively paying attention. Since he's kinda interested in the fate of the universe if the god-killing Snarl manages to get out, I get the feeling that he's interested in seeing that quest succeed, especially when he has a active hand through Durkon.

If he isn't actively paying attention, then it could be broken with a Caster Level check against something the forties. As far as we know, the Hel!Durkon isn't an epic caster.

I'm still calling for a lighting hand to pimp slap him.

Personally, I don't think that Thor is casting Control Weather. He has absolute control over that domain after all, so why would he need to cast a spell to control it? I think he is influencing the weather to behave in an unnatural fashion against the Mechane. Also, the Thor from OOTS is not the Thor from Dieties and Demigods.