Tier Balance/Gestalt Proposal

[SowZ]

So I just had a thought. What if you allowed Gestalt/Tristalt according to a point buy? As in, every level up you get 4 points. Tier 1-2 classes cost 4 points. Tier 3 costs 3 points. Tier 4 costs 2 points. Tier 5 costs 1 points. I suppose you could pentastalt if it was all Tier 5 classes. How would this balance the game and make the Fighter and Monk classes reasonably relevant?

[Seppo87]

Increasing mundane numbers doesn't solve the structural imbalance.

Repel Metal disabling armies and most melee classes is structural imbalance. It can't be countered increasing numbers, because it's not based on numbers.

Divinations and teleports breaking campaign while other classes need to actually use their brain or feet. This is structural imbalance.

Celerity winning initiative no matter what, is structural. Can't be beaten with numbers.

Tweaking numbers does nothing. Tweaking numbers does not address the problem. Casters rule and mundanes follow.
This is inherent to the system and will not change tweaking numbers.

I-win buttons will keep breaking the game.

[SowZ]

Increasing mundane numbers doesn't solve the structural imbalance.

Repel Metal disabling armies and most melee classes is structural imbalance. It can't be countered increasing numbers, because it's not based on numbers.

Divinations and teleports breaking campaign while other classes need to actually use their brain or feet. This is structural imbalance.

Celerity winning initiative no matter what, is structural. Can't be beaten with numbers.

Tweaking numbers does nothing. Tweaking numbers does not address the problem. Casters rule and mundanes follow.
This is inherent to the system and will not change tweaking numbers.

I-win buttons will keep breaking the game.

Of course, but I'm assuming most people are going to combine a spellcasting class. And I don't know why you are saying this is about increasing mundane numbers? It seems fairly clear that it is about increasing options and class features for non-tier ones. A Fighter/Bard is going to be able to at least contribute. I may even make it a full five points allotted, and tier 1s cost the full five, allowing for things like the Rogue/Dread Necromancer. I win buttons and crazy combos will always break the game, but nerfing or removing these is pretty easy. Restructuring entire classes is not. This doesn't replace the need to monitor the heavy hitters but is to allow all the classes in the same play area. Power gamers or super OP spells still need to be monitored by the DM of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems like a workable approach. I can dig it. It's not going to solve the major high-op problems, but it'll help practical-to-low op a lot.

[Tvtyrant]

If I was going to play a super high level gametm I would probably have tier 1s gestalt with tier 4s, and tier 2s with tier 3s. If the range is any more than that the gestalt probably will not add enough new features to make the characters good (Barbarian+Fighter for instance.)

[Jormengand]

Tier 5 costs 5 points.

Wait, what?

[Network]

Wait, what?

Of course we all know tier 5 classes are going to unbalance the game! Better limit them, so give everyone 4 character points per level and require 5 character points for every level in a tier 5 class. Thanks SowZ, I think you just rebalanced D&D.

[SowZ]

Of course we all know tier 5 classes are going to unbalance the game! Better limit them, so give everyone 4 character points per level and require 5 character points for every level in a tier 5 class. Thanks SowZ, I think you just rebalanced D&D.

Haha, that was supposed to be 1 point. Anyway, it makes more sense to just give 5 points and the costs range from 1-5.

[toapat]

so do T6 classes cost 0 points with this? If so i see no reason for everyone to not take Warrior and commoner levels. Maybe aristocrat levels.

Definitely not samurai levels though. We still want some power from gestalt

[SowZ]

so do T6 classes cost 0 points with this? If so i see no reason for everyone to not take Warrior and commoner levels. Maybe aristocrat levels.

Definitely not samurai levels though. We still want some power from gestalt

Tier 6 would still cost 1 point, I suppose. I don't want full BAB to be a freebie. Maybe I could up the total points allotted to 6 and have it be:

6=1
5=2
4=3
3=4
2=5
1=6

[bekeleven]

Casters are still casters (remember the "are all tier 4-6 classes gestalted as powerful as a wizard" thread?), but this is a good midrange approach. Reminds me of how E6 handles Level Adjustment with point buy.

Do you have to spend all (4 or 6 or whatever) points all at once? Can I save points? Can I take 6 levels in a tier 6? Can I unbalance my tracks?

If you allow unequal numbers of tracks each level, the players will have to essentially recalculate BAB and Saves every level (or else you end up with the Wizard 20 //Fighter 1/Sorc 19 having 20 BAB problem, but a bit more complicated).

I haven't done the exact math on this, but I foresee it as favoring double tier 3s as the best approach. Something like Warblade + Factotum. Both favor the same mental stat, they have opposite chassis, and only one is active. Or Warlock+Swordsage (plus fighter for BAB). Bard + Crusader. Dread Necro+... You get the point.

A triple tier 4 would look something like:

Warlock is obviously good. It gives passive abilities, and isn't really stat dependent. It's the vanilla of gestalt. That said, its chassis brings nothing to the table save a will save.

Ranger is a chassis upgrade in every way. Covers weak saves, full BAB, modest HD upgrade. Probably make a swift hunter build, since skirmish is added to eldritch blast. That said, most of ranger is just punching people. For the third track you're looking for more active abilities and possibly higher HD. I'm actually thinking Adept.

You could fit more classes if you replaced ranger with Paladin + Aristocrat or Samurai + Rogue. Fun builds that way. Battle blessing and A-Game spring to mind.

My own model would be

Tier 6 = 1 Point
Tier 5 = 2 Points
Tier 4 = 3 Points
Tier 3 = 4 Points
Tier 2 = Banned
Tier 1 = Banned

4 Points per level.

[SowZ]

Casters are still casters (remember the "are all tier 4-6 classes gestalted as powerful as a wizard" thread?), but this is a good midrange approach. Reminds me of how E6 handles Level Adjustment with point buy.

Do you have to spend all (4 or 6 or whatever) points all at once? Can I save points? Can I take 6 levels in a tier 6? Can I unbalance my tracks?

If you allow unequal numbers of tracks each level, the players will have to essentially recalculate BAB and Saves every level (or else you end up with the Wizard 20 //Fighter 1/Cleric 19 having 20 BAB problem, but a bit more complicated).

I haven't done the exact math on this, but I foresee it as favoring double tier 3s as the best approach. Something like Warblade + Factotum. Both favor the same mental stat, they have opposite chassis, and only one is active. Or Warlock+Swordsage (plus fighter for BAB). Bard + Crusader. Dread Necro+... You get the point.

A triple tier 4 would look something like:

Warlock is obviously good. It gives passive abilities, and isn't really stat dependent. It's the vanilla of gestalt. That said, its chassis brings nothing to the table save a will save.

Ranger is a chassis upgrade in every way. Covers weak saves, full BAB, modest HD upgrade. Probably make a swift hunter build, since skirmish is added to eldritch blast. That said, most of ranger is just punching people. For the third track you're looking for more active abilities and possibly higher HD. I'm actually thinking Adept.

You could fit more classes if you replaced ranger with Paladin + Aristocrat or Samurai + Rogue. Fun builds that way. Battle blessing and A-Game spring to mind.

My own model would be

Tier 6 = 1 Point
Tier 5 = 2 Points
Tier 4 = 3 Points
Tier 3 = 4 Points
Tier 2 = Banned
Tier 1 = Banned

4 Points per level.

I dislike straight up banning classes, though I might say you can't save points but can spend them on other things. (A bonus feat? Bonus SP? HP? Help me out someone, haha.) I might max it out at tristalting and I prefer fractional saves.

[toapat]

personally id exploit this by going Battledancer 1/Paladin19//Duskblade 1/Spellthief 19 with probably +10 feats and +10 attributes from the leftover point with the 6 point version.

[SowZ]

personally id exploit this by going Battledancer 1/Paladin19//Duskblade 1/Spellthief 19 with probably +10 feats and +10 attributes from the leftover point with the 6 point version.

That's why I am trying to find a good balance for leftover points. Anyway, that would be fine with me. It'd be a good build, and could keep up with a straight wizard, but not gamebreaking. Not in the game I'd run.

[toapat]

That's why I am trying to find a good balance for leftover points. Anyway, that would be fine with me. It'd be a good build, and could keep up with a straight wizard, but not gamebreaking. Not in the game I'd run.

i think the problem is that T2 probably hits T1 power in the 6 point one.

I think a good counterbalance stipulation is that classes with 9th level non-martial slots would have to pay double points for Attribute increases. this hurts the healer and warmage but other fullcasters would be stopped from exploiting piles of free stats.

maybe we count healer and warmage as -1 tier for this then?

[SowZ]

i think the problem is that T2 probably hits T1 power in the 6 point one.

I think a good counterbalance stipulation is that classes with 9th level non-martial slots would have to pay double points for Attribute increases. this hurts the healer and warmage but other fullcasters would be stopped from exploiting piles of free stats.

maybe we count healer and warmage as -1 tier for this then?

Why not just say 'Tier 1-2 classes' in that case? They are all casters, and now we aren't hurting the lower Tier casters.

[toapat]

Why not just say 'Tier 1-2 classes' in that case? They are all casters, and now we aren't hurting the lower Tier casters.

because the T3 fullcasters would still get the disproportionate boost from the attribute

[SowZ]

because the T3 fullcasters would still get the disproportionate boost from the attribute

Then why not just give non-casters some boon as opposed to limiting full casters? Or even let leftover points be spent on attributes, since T1s aren't going to have any leftovers and T2s are probable going to want to gestalt with something that has a greater HD?

[3WhiteFox3]

Just limit how high a stat can go when you boost it with the points. Non-casters won't care, since they are already MAD, and Casters will still get a boost, but won't be able to take their casting ability into the sky.

[toapat]

does it seem wrong to anyone else that my battledancer 1/paladin19//duskblade 1/Spellthief19 gish can get 15d6 sneak attack thanks to Ascetic Knight > Ascetic Rogue? (Paladin counts as monk + monk counts as rogue = Paladin counts as rogue)

edit, also it would have to be +8 feats/+10 Charisma, duskblade + paladin =6 points, BD + ST = 6

[Network]

does it seem wrong to anyone else that my battledancer 1/paladin19//duskblade 1/Spellthief19 gish can get 15d6 sneak attack thanks to Ascetic Knight > Ascetic Rogue? (Paladin counts as monk + monk counts as rogue = Paladin counts as rogue)

edit, also it would have to be +8 feats/+10 Charisma, duskblade + paladin =6 points, BD + ST = 6

Having Ascetic Knight and Ascetic Rogue combine this way is certainly neither RAW nor RAI. Both feats explicitely mention which class features are concerned, and nowhere in Ascetic Knight is sneak attack mentioned. Plus, battledancer/duskblade would only work with the 5 points version, not the 6 points version (but I assume you'd get enough spare points from paladin/spellthief to do it anyway).

[toapat]

Having Ascetic Knight and Ascetic Rogue combine this way is certainly neither RAW nor RAI. Both feats explicitely mention which class features are concerned, and nowhere in Ascetic Knight is sneak attack mentioned. Plus, battledancer/duskblade would only work with the 5 points version, not the 6 points version (but I assume you'd get enough spare points from paladin/spellthief to do it anyway).

you have all the classfeatures involved in both monk feats, although they are not intended to stack, jumping paladin levels into rogue levels is what happens because both Ascetic feats are about boosting unarmed strike for monk

[SowZ]

does it seem wrong to anyone else that my battledancer 1/paladin19//duskblade 1/Spellthief19 gish can get 15d6 sneak attack thanks to Ascetic Knight > Ascetic Rogue? (Paladin counts as monk + monk counts as rogue = Paladin counts as rogue)

edit, also it would have to be +8 feats/+10 Charisma, duskblade + paladin =6 points, BD + ST = 6

Ehh, there's always going to be optimization tricks. I'm more concerned about general play-ability than what exploits there are.

Just limit how high a stat can go when you boost it with the points. Non-casters won't care, since they are already MAD, and Casters will still get a boost, but won't be able to take their casting ability into the sky.

That could work. Maybe it gives you 2 points to upgrade stats like Point Buy. You could save up points but couldn't bring something above 18 in this manner since it would be like Point Buy. Maybe you could also get a bonus feat instead.

[toapat]

i think beyond the sillyness that can come about from doubling-quadrupling featcounts in Gestalt or massively boosting pointbuy values on the T2+3 fullcasters, theres not really any notable problems i can find.

however, feats rapidly hit a point of diminishing returns, while only a small number of classes gain massive benefits from the combination.