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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    iirc, doesn't hovering over a country with your mouse while in the tech map overlay also show a breakdown of their tech? Easy way of seeing who's generally ahead of you and who's behind, even if the tech map overlay itself doesn't show you the specifics of each tech.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    So in my current Milan game (I have a habit of getting to around 1520 and deciding I haven't done enough and starting over), I was buddy-buddy with France, using them to help me grab bits of the Empire. Then, in the middle of a war against a huge Argonese-Austrian-Polish alliance that they started, their king dies. The new shlub was greedy, and broke our alliance.

    Needless to say, I was pissed.

    I got out of that war ASAP, and since I was a major contributor to not being swept away by the huge armies of the enemy alliance, France got swamped.

    I didn't stop there.

    After a brief war to get a foothold in England, I started gunning for France, crushing their army every time the treaty expired until the rebels broke the country, releasing nations and gobbling up territory until France was left with like 8 provinces in the northeast. I would have continued, but now I'm running afoul of nationalist rebels everywhere, and while I can handle them, my admin points and manpower reserves are low. Once that replenishes, however...
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    I've come to the realization that the Golden Horde actually might be one of the better starting positions for playing a steppe nomad nation. I was looking at them as an option for the Turning The Tide achievement, but discovered that if you could get your traction...I used to think that they were just there and they usually get crushed by just about everyone around them, but you could potentially do a lot with them.

    All of it lies within two provinces. Circassia which is on the GH border, a base tax 4 gold region. Georgia can be vassalized in a day 1 rush. The rest of their territory is rather mediocre though. Most importantly though is the beautiful, beautiful province of Samara. a Base tax 9 gold region that the Golden Horde just happens to have a Core on. However it is held by Kazan at the start of the game, Although I actually found them harder to crush than Georgia due to an inopportune alliance with the Timurids, but i managed to snatch it during a war they had with Muscovy. That region alone added like 5 ducats/month to my income. They also have a great spot to westernize if they can keep Genoa alive and well. If not, they can always war through the eastern European nations with some work.

    The thing is that if you can get an alliance with the Ottomans and Timurids...Muscovy isn't going to attack you at the start. They'll likely hit more squishy targets like Kazan and Novgorod, which will deplete their early manpower and give you an opportunity to strike at them early on. I don't usually see them ally with Lithuania, the only other real power in the immediate area. Of course if that fails, you can always just head east. Cut off Muscovy and expand east for a hundred years. The hordes are always fighting each other and the Golden Horde has probably the second or third largest army of all of them at the start of the game.

    so yeah, barring any unfortunate tragedies, I think i'm going to have fun with this game. The biggest hurdle right now is going to be finding a way to cut Muscovy down to size.
    Last edited by Leecros; 2014-06-10 at 02:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Okay, **** Paradox. Apparently trading companies spawn immediately when Europeans sit next to non-Europeans in Africa or Asia. I put down a colony next to the Portuguese colony at the Cape. It was literally the only other settled province between Kongo and Mutapa and it was in a trading company on day 1 after finishing. Which meant I couldn't westernize after all. I'd have to, I don't know, sneak in a province in Brazil or something to maybe succeed at it. And with the ridiculous penalties people beyond the Muslim tech group gets, that's basically just a huge **** you to people wanting to play East Asians or Indians.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Eh, I'm not so sure. I definitely get the frustration, but they also flattened the military progression, so the Europeans aren't roflstoming everyone east of Anatolia just cuz.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrcusMcP View Post
    Eh, I'm not so sure. I definitely get the frustration, but they also flattened the military progression, so the Europeans aren't roflstoming everyone east of Anatolia just cuz.
    Yeah, they merely get slightly better units and to be far ahead in tech at all times. The units is a move in the right direction, but I'm not sure it was worth it if they destroy reasonable options for westernizing for people west of the Arab peninsula and Persia in exchange. You still really do want to westernize to keep up. Also the whole thing is really uncomfortable since it gives the impression that they're hellbent on making sure that because Europe came to be ascendant in the world it must be so and anything that can change that is wrong and must be stopped.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Eh, I don't see that as an issue, I see it as a feature. No country in the regions you pointed out Westernized in the game period, despite having access to European Trade Company-controlled land. It restores a semblance of historical plausibility to the region. Looks to me like it worked as intended.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Yeah, they merely get slightly better units and to be far ahead in tech at all times. The units is a move in the right direction, but I'm not sure it was worth it if they destroy reasonable options for westernizing for people west of the Arab peninsula and Persia in exchange. You still really do want to westernize to keep up. Also the whole thing is really uncomfortable since it gives the impression that they're hellbent on making sure that because Europe came to be ascendant in the world it must be so and anything that can change that is wrong and must be stopped.
    I agree with this. If you're going to have "westernization" be a thing, it should be a reasonably feasible option, not completely blocked b y the trade company system.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    No, but that's mostly because westernizing is a nonsense term when applied to periods before industrialization. While Europe did become dominant in certain fields of technology, most notably shipbuilding and how to mount cannons on ships, it was a poor backwards region compared to the Middle East and East Asia at least into the 17th century. I've heard at least one expert on Indian history, Niels Brimnes from the department of history at Aarhus University, comment that when England fought Mysore in the late 18th century they almost had parity in military technology on land and English victory was a product . These countries didn't westernize because, bluntly speaking, European social organization and practical technology wasn't any better than their yet.

    Eventual European dominance was more of a product of politics than of Europeans being smarter or better at science. It was basically a product of the relative strength and stability of the modern state, which didn't really start developing until the 17th century, exploiting moments of weakness or conflict in other countries and leveraging the superior naval technology that Europe had developed to get to where stuff people wanted was. It wasn't in any way a given that things would shake out like that and making the Chinese and Indians technologically inferior to Europeans in 1444 is absolutely absurd, they weren't. European shipbuilding hadn't gone off the ground yet, while China was sending fleets of ships larger than anything Europeans would built until the 18th century all the way past Africa.

    For that matter, a number of European countries were hideously backwards in this period. Denmark, with the exception of Slesvig and Holstein, is an obvious example. Similarly, Spain, Portugal and Italy fell hideously behind the rest of Europe. On the other hand, Japan developed a more commercial economy than the Netherlands with sophisticated banking, marketing and a large spread of popular culture.

    So, yes, no countries in Asia westernized, but that's because westernizing wasn't a thing and the idea that Europe was superior to people in Asia until well into the 18th century is a product of ignorance and 19th century self-congratulatory rhetorics. And just about any historian of anywhere that isn't Europe and a lot of the ones studying Europe who deals with the period will confirm this.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    that's basically just a huge **** you to people wanting to play East Asians or Indians.
    Oh, it gets better. Did you hear a summary of how the various changes to Production basically cut the entire rest of the world's income (and also manpower and forcelimits) as compared to Europe's?

    Because that was a thing that happened in the last patch as well. They did some good things, and they made some giant mistakes.
    Last edited by Guancyto; 2014-06-10 at 05:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Oh, it gets better. Did you hear a summary of how the various changes to Production basically cut the entire rest of the world's income (and also manpower and forcelimits) as compared to Europe's?

    Because that was a thing that happened in the last patch as well. They did some good things, and they made some giant mistakes.
    No, I didn't hear the details of that. How does it work? It does explain why I could get so ridiculously rich as The Hansa compared to countries dominating the trade and production of valuable East Asian goods.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Basically they tied Goods more closely to province base tax, which is... not well-thought-out, in the world. (The most oft-cited example is Paris being 15 base tax at 1444, while Vijayanagar, then the most populated city in India, second most populated city in the world, and one that beat Paris like a red-headed stepchild for wealth, is... 2 base tax)

    It's not a direct nerf, but it made high basetax provinces (which Europe is full of, particularly France and Germany) much more valuable in both money and manpower, and low basetax provinces (which are much more common in the rest of the world, although it hurt Scandinavia substantially too) much less valuable.

    Someone ran the numbers and found that, at baseline, the entire rest of the world combined isn't that much wealthier than just Europe now. I'll see if I can't find the exact numbers, although the EU forums search function is being difficult.

    I should note, I don't think they did this on purpose (because it also disadvantaged their home country of Sweden), but it is... very eurocentric.

    Edit: Found it, or a reference to it at least.
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...her-in-basetax

    Base tax plus base goods produced:
    Pre-WON/WON/Change
    Europe: 498/453/-10%
    RotW: 995/570/-43%
    Asia: 451/296/-34%
    Africa: 174/86/-51%
    North America: 229/116/-49%
    South America: 99/54/-41%
    Oceania: 42/18/-57%

    Bear in mind this is at baseline, and is offset by buildings and value of goods, which are both dynamic so you can't really put a hard number on them. Still, it is considerable.
    Last edited by Guancyto; 2014-06-10 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    I think part of the problem is that Europa Universalis IV doesn't portray population at all. Admittedly it's only part of the problem, but i feel like that was just a terrible decision on their part.

    Population is...kind of an important part in determining the wealth of the region.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Honestly, as far as I can tell the problem is that Europeans and people in countries derived from European settlers have an overinflated sense of their historical worth and superiority. That and that a lot of plain old misinformation is floating around as facts and commonly accepted as such, along with weird teleological views of history as something that by necessity had to flow towards some natural order that tends to benefit the speaker.

    In short, I think the problem is a whole lot of unrealized, unaddressed, eurocentric superiority that has piled up over the last two centuries.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Honestly, as far as I can tell the problem is that Europeans and people in countries derived from European settlers have an overinflated sense of their historical worth and superiority. That and that a lot of plain old misinformation is floating around as facts and commonly accepted as such, along with weird teleological views of history as something that by necessity had to flow towards some natural order that tends to benefit the speaker.

    In short, I think the problem is a whole lot of unrealized, unaddressed, eurocentric superiority that has piled up over the last two centuries.
    Truth.

    Europeans got really lucky, had some very influential ideas and innovations take root and rode that to a pretty commanding position in the last couple centuries.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    And even then, the only place outside of Europe they truly dominated before the 19th century was the Americas, which not only didn't use metal, but had become a post-apocalyptic wasteland due to disease by the time the Spanish reached the mainland and where the main powers were collapsing from internal conflicts at the time. India was still mostly a patchwork of smallish British holdings, allied local rulers and vassals, not a huge country under direct British administration like it would become after The Great Mutiny. China and Japan were places for minor trade, Korea was an insular protectorate of China and the Ottomans still dominated the Middle East and North Africa. At the very least both Vietnam and Thailand were independent in Southeast Asia and Laos, inland Burma and southwest China were a wild frontier that weren't under any strong central governments. Also, China included considerable parts of what is now Russia, along with Mongolia and having Central Asia still be independent. Persia was a thing too, while Australia, New Zealand, Oceania and most of Subsaharan Africa hadn't been colonized and weren't under any central governments. The whole carving up the world thing is a 19th century thing.

    So Europe was really a whole lot less dominant than people tend to imagine. Even if you choose to count the Ottomans as European. Not just that, the Europe that was dominant abroad was Spain, England, Russia if you count formally taking control of the largely empty lands in Siberia and The US, which is still European in this regard even if it gained independence. The Dutch had some colonies in modern Indonesia and Portugal had Brazil, but that was it for major colonies not held by the three above. It's not like all of Europe dominated, Italy was a poor backwater by this time and Iberia wasn't doing much better and Scandinavia was pretty far from being the wealthy, comfortable region it's known as today.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrcusMcP View Post
    Eh, I'm not so sure. I definitely get the frustration, but they also flattened the military progression, so the Europeans aren't roflstoming everyone east of Anatolia just cuz.
    No, they're even worse. China has been partitioned between Russia and Castille in my Hansa game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    I've heard at least one expert on Indian history, Niels Brimnes from the department of history at Aarhus University, comment that when England fought Mysore in the late 18th century they almost had parity in military technology on land and English victory was a product.
    The Indians had kind of westernised in the area of military tactics, with foreigners regularly training Indian troops (European Officers were also imployed by the Ottomans, a job Napoleon considered early in his life). On the other hand the East India company had been fighting in India for decades and most of its troops were locals so it was just as much that they were developing off each other as anyone was copying the west.

    Also, England didn't fight Mysore since it hadn't existed for decades and Wellington was Irish anyway but I don't suppose that's a distinction non-British people care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Not just that, the Europe that was dominant abroad was Spain, England, Russia if you count formally taking control of the largely empty lands in Siberia and The US, which is still European in this regard even if it gained independence. The Dutch had some colonies in modern Indonesia and Portugal had Brazil, but that was it for major colonies not held by the three above.
    You missed out France. British dominance isn't until 1763, before then France had parity with Britain in India and had far more territory in America. England never dominated everything since again, it was dissolved as a country in 1707 back when it was a very minor power that had only escaped becoming a Dutch satellite state out of luck.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Only British people care about the England/The United Kingdoms of Great Britain distinction. Everybody knows what England is, but people from most of the world will look at you blankly if you say United Kingdoms, Great Britain or UK and even in places where people do know those names England is the name used. Complaining about it is like complaining about people calling the US America and its inhabitants Americans.

    And, yes, France was big in India before the Seven Years War and had massive territories in Canada, but I was talking about the end of the period. And even adding France, you're still not looking at "Europe" dominating, but countries with a big Atlantic coastline dominating. And they still didn't dominate Europe itself, France was far more invested in the continent than in the Colonies, Prussia was rising as a great power, Austro-Hungary was massive and Russia was a major power...In Europe. It hadn't established most of its Central Asian and Manchurian presence yet and Siberia was largely just as undeveloped as before Russia had taken it. The end of the 18th century was the period were the three big dogs were a France that had lost most of its colonies, Austro-Hungary and Russia, with Spain having descended into irrelevance despite its colonial empire still being largely intact. Great Britain was the only great power with a significant colonial investment at the dawn of the Napoleonic wars. France had the big, largely empty Louisiana territory and Spain was no longer a great power and Russia hadn't conquered Central Asia yet or started seriously messing around in China.

    So, really, the whole narrative of European dominance before the mid-19th century is also inaccurate in that it was limited in terms of what parts of Europe were involved, not just in that it was limited where Europe dominated. Europe was mostly focused internally on Europe until the industrialization was well under way. And with the exception of Great Britain, the most successful parts of Europe were ones more focused on Europe than the colonies, even at the height of its colonial empire France never put as much effort into it as had been put into the British colonies. And, really, this might be because Great Britain was sitting on the rim of Europe without good ways of building power in the continent, so they had to look elsewhere.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    According to wikipedia
    New France had 44,000 colonists in 1740.
    The Thirteen Colonies had 1,000,000 in 1749

    The main cause of this was probably that France banned religious minorities from the colonies while Britain did not. Instead, French Huguenots fled to eastern Germany instead. It wasn't that Britain was more focused on America, it was that it used it differently. France cared about trade with the natives and didn't need a large population there, the British government didn't have much interest in settling America but that was irrelevant due to private companies.

    The main difference in French and English colonisation efforts was that England (and the Netherlands) had much more involvement from joint stock companies. France took its medieval guilds under government control while England was doing the opposite. The economical differences between the two countries are what mainly had the effect. Parliamentary democracy allowed capitalists to have a say in foreign policy, British strategy resulted from its economic and political culture rather than intelligence. The country's nature as an island was of little importance seeing how the Dutch were doing the same thing despite not being one.

    Britain was not isolated from Europe, the personal union with Hanover from 1714 tied them deeply into European politics and they conquered Gibraltar in 1713 and tried to get a base in the baleric islands at the same time. Britain mainly entered the 7 years war because it needed Prussia as an ally to defend Hanover.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2014-06-11 at 07:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    I have a feeling that Paradox just wanted to make a game that was significantly different than Crusader Kings so they added the colonization aspect as a major feature, and then made sure the AI could use it because otherwise the Americas would be 100% player-owned.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I have a feeling that Paradox just wanted to make a game that was significantly different than Crusader Kings so they added the colonization aspect as a major feature, and then made sure the AI could use it because otherwise the Americas would be 100% player-owned.
    Er, Europa Universalis came before Crusader Kings, you know. And this is something that's been around since EU1.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    For games like this, whether it's Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Total War, Civilization, etc. where you're playing in the middle of historical periods, there's always a tension between 4 different things:

    1)Actual history
    2)Historiography
    3)Theme
    4)"Balance"

    The first two are always contentious and you will never get anything perfect or acceptable to everyone. Even trying to get things right is hard to do from a development standpoint. A game can only get so specific and granular before it becomes unwieldy, so some abstraction is necessary if only to make sure the game actually functions. Balance is a pretty tricky thing to get right in any kind of game, let alone games where it gets wrapped up in actual history and historiography.

    Thus, it's often easier to just double down on theme. Crusader Kings is less about the actual medieval period than it is about CREATING A GRAND FEUDAL DYNASTY! Victoria is less about actual Victorian era history than it is about THE SPRINGTIME OF NATIONS AND THE FIRE OF INDUSTRY! Civ 5 is about BUILDING A CIVILIZATION THAT WILL STAND THE TEST OF TIME!

    Europa's theme seems to be more along the lines of EXPLORE! INVENT! CONQUER! GLORY! I don't think they're quite at it yet, but the last 2 expansions seem to be moving in the right direction, at least.

    While it doesn't get history or even the historiography right, can we at least agree that they're trying?
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    They're trying, but I'm not sure I'm sold on their competence at it. Some elements of this latest patch was pretty bad for all points except the theme, where they enhanced it for Europeans but made it much harder for everyone else.

    Also, it seems like they rebroke France. Every game I've tried the rest of Europe cowers in fear of the big blue blob and that didn't happen to a degree like that before the most recent patch.

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    The game i had with Burgundy had France falling flat on it's face, but at the same time that was with player intervention. I took advantage of an alliance with Castille and Denmark and pushed wars against France every time they went to war with England. So ultimately the reason there wasn't a BBB was because there was a B...B...B. I didn't think that through did i? At least BBB stands for Big Burgundy Blob instead of Big Blue Blob.

    And it was laughably easy...As i mentioned in the post i made earlier about it, if i had known i'd be THAT much more powerful than everyone else, i would have been more aggressive.
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    Er, Europa Universalis came before Crusader Kings, you know. And this is something that's been around since EU1.
    I know. But "colonizing stuff" is the first thing most people think about when someone says "Europe in the Age of Sail."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    Also, it seems like they rebroke France. Every game I've tried the rest of Europe cowers in fear of the big blue blob and that didn't happen to a degree like that before the most recent patch.
    The weird thing is nobody hates France for conquering half of the HRE either. Did they break the coalition mechanics as well?

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Terraoblivion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    They work just fine against the player at least. I've had big coalitions happen on multiple occasions.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    It's size, I think. If you're a lot bigger than the other guys, they won't join coalitions against you. Because it pisses them off.
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    Coalitions are... wunky, to say the least. Nations with the Threatened attitude won't join them (which happens easily if you're huge). Also, neither will nations with the Hostile attitude, which often covers a lot of people who just want your land (which happens easily if you've a lot of land).

    But your rivals? Oh, they'll get in them and never leave.
    Last edited by Guancyto; 2014-06-11 at 09:24 PM.
    Rider avatar by Elder Tsofu

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

    This game is not available in India. Bring it in India please.

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