Europa Universalis 4 Thread 2: Comet Sighted!

[rweird]

That would have been smart. I ended up peacing out before they took anything (700 ducats is not a hard sum to pay when you have 4000 and nothing to spend it on) and then conquering my way to one of their colonies. My religion is finally fully reformed...I don't know if I can afford the massive period of instability that Westernization causes because Castille and Portugal want all my provinces, but it's not like I could fight them off even while stable. Maybe I should submit myself as a Protectorate to somebody, since that apparently falls off as soon as you Westernize.

I think being a protectorate would serve you well. It does fall off after westernizing, and the AI almost never declares on a protectorate (and protectorates aren't called in to defend the overlord).

As for the instability, if you save up some ADM, it wouldn't be too bad (it just is +5 revolt risk, and you'd have at least 5 tolerance of the true faith, if you boost stability back up to 1, it wouldn't be much of a problem).

[Flickerdart]

I think being a protectorate would serve you well. It does fall off after westernizing, and the AI almost never declares on a protectorate (and protectorates aren't called in to defend the overlord).

Well, Castille absolutely hates me now (they used to have a +80 or so after Improving Relations but now they have the "wants provinces" modifier). There's a Catholic Western Tribal Council I now border who really likes me, so I could try getting them as a protector - but if I westernize immediately, is there a point? Seems to me that the 20% discount on tech is meant for nations who need to play a little catch-up before they can even dream of westernizing.

As for the instability, if you save up some ADM, it wouldn't be too bad (it just is +5 revolt risk, and you'd have at least 5 tolerance of the true faith, if you boost stability back up to 1, it wouldn't be much of a problem).

Yeah, with the Authority mechanic, revolt risk isn't that bad - I think I have something like -13 national revolt risk. I did blunder into a Peasants' War thanks to Manpower being at 0 for pretty much the entire game. I managed to keep Stability high enough most of the time, but hit 100% overextension after capturing most of Quito and couldn't core it all in time. Fortunately, just like Europeans, peasants can be paid off!

[rweird]

Being a protectorate of someone else means you won't have to worry about Europeans attacking you while you westernize, or about Coalitions. I'd say go for it, unless trade is a massive amount of your income you couldn't live without (from what you've said, income doesn't seem to be a problem though).

Additionally, I believe protectorate breaks 1 day (possibly on the next month tick) after you finish westernizing, so if you pause quickly enough, you could tech up with western tech having a 20% discount (this is not from experience with protectorates, but from experience with transfer trade power breaking after you vassalize someone diplomatically, I figure the AI would be about the same).

[Flickerdart]

Being a protectorate of someone else means you won't have to worry about Europeans attacking you while you westernize, or about Coalitions. I'd say go for it, unless trade is a massive amount of your income you couldn't live without (from what you've said, income doesn't seem to be a problem though).

Additionally, I believe protectorate breaks 1 day (possibly on the next month tick) after you finish westernizing, so if you pause quickly enough, you could tech up with western tech having a 20% discount (this is not from experience with protectorates, but from experience with transfer trade power breaking after you vassalize someone diplomatically, I figure the AI would be about the same).

Awesome, thanks. The only worry I have about income is that I'll need to pay off the (suddenly extra-expensive) advisors, as well as potentially mercs if my manpower tanks again. Since the only Western tech power that likes me isn't very strong, I don't know how much they'll be able to actually protect me. Frankly I'm surprised they even exist - I think they're a regular local nation that Westernized and Christianized because the Spanish got to them long before they made their way around to my side of things, and somehow managed to avoid being eaten.

[rweird]

They won't really protect you, it is more a game trick.

The AI pretty much never declares on vassals or subjects (Colonial Nations being the exception for other colonial nations). If your overlord is attacked, you, as a protectorate won't be called in. If your overlord is annexed, the protectorate transfers (like vassalage) to the conquerer. The AI would have to choose to cancel the protectorate, which I've never seen them do. Them being eaten might actually be good, as then France/Spain/GB/Portugal would be your protector instead. The only disadvantage of your overlord being conquered is it cancels all your vassals and other diplomatic relations.

[Flickerdart]

The only disadvantage of your overlord being conquered is it cancels all your vassals and other diplomatic relations.

I thought a protectorate couldn't have those anyway? I made sure to eat all of mine real quick as soon as Castille showed up on my doorstep.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I thought a protectorate couldn't have those anyway? I made sure to eat all of mine real quick as soon as Castille showed up on my doorstep.

Vassal/subject nations can have their own vassal/subject nations.

[Frog Dragon]

It tends to only happen when you forcevassalize someone who also has subjects of their own though. But it can happen. Getting protectorated does not revoke your overlordship over any vassals.

[rweird]

I thought a protectorate couldn't have those anyway? I made sure to eat all of mine real quick as soon as Castille showed up on my doorstep.

Yeah, force vassalization, or releasing countries as vassals is the only way to get them. Vassalizing people you want to eat diplomatically before westernizing is good, as you couldn't afterwords.

[Flickerdart]

Alright, I ended up Westernizing, which catapulted me from backwater nobody with nothing to a country so powerful that my only eligible rivals are Castille and France. I tried to diplovassalize my neighbor who likes me, but they cap out at +186 relations even when I pull out all the stops. They're still allied to Castille, but so am I, and I think I might actually be stronger than them at this point (my army is much larger and I have the home field advantage, but they have much greater tech and the colonial nations will all join the war). Bumping off Castille's colonies (and boy, do they have plenty) is probably my only way forward at this point since they've captured all of Central America already, Brazil has gobbled up most of East South America. My other way out is starting to colonize Western Mexico, but that gets sandwiched between New Castille and Castillan California...

I suppose I could also coast-hop into Asia, but I have no idea what's going on there so that seems like a dicey proposition.

[rweird]

Alright, I ended up Westernizing, which catapulted me from backwater nobody with nothing to a country so powerful that my only eligible rivals are Castille and France. I tried to diplovassalize my neighbor who likes me, but they cap out at +186 relations even when I pull out all the stops. They're still allied to Castille, but so am I, and I think I might actually be stronger than them at this point (my army is much larger and I have the home field advantage, but they have much greater tech and the colonial nations will all join the war). Bumping off Castille's colonies (and boy, do they have plenty) is probably my only way forward at this point since they've captured all of Central America already, Brazil has gobbled up most of East South America. My other way out is starting to colonize Western Mexico, but that gets sandwiched between New Castille and Castillan California...

I suppose I could also coast-hop into Asia, but I have no idea what's going on there so that seems like a dicey proposition.

With Western Tech, you should be able to take on Asia pretty well, although the Philippines probably would be pretty colonized.

For pulling out all the stops, does that include subsidies, granting military access, and guarantee?

[Flickerdart]

For pulling out all the stops, does that include subsidies, granting military access, and guarantee?

Yes. I had:
+50 Alliance
+100 Improved Relations
+10 Military access
+10 Guaranteed
+25 gift
+15 subsidy (is this the cap? I was giving them 25 gold subsidy for 40 years)
+13 transfer trade power
-20 Heretic
-15 CB (they have Holy War CB on every pagan)
-2 Border tension

Couldn't Royal Marry them because they're a Tribal Council (and Catholics can't marry heathens anyway). Should I convert away from Inti so I can shack up with Castille?

[rweird]

Yeah, subsidies cap at +15, if they have rebels, killing them for the country gives +20 (as does answered call to arms).

I imagine that staying Inti, after all the trouble is better. You can't get cardinals unless you have a capital on the same continent as the Pope, and losing the religion probably would remove the bonuses.

Also, taking provinces from a rival of theirs, declaring war on their rival, answering their call to arms, or giving them provinces in a peace deal can give opinion bonuses

[Flickerdart]

I haven't seen them have rebels, and they're not gonna be likely to go to war with anybody - I ate all the OPMs in the area, and the only remaining powers are Castille's colonies, while Castille is their ally.

If I ever declare war on Castille, I'll bump them off for sure, but for now I think I'll just let them be unless some rebels show up. Two New World provinces aren't worth the hassle.

There are also weird things afoot now that I'm exploring more of the world - Britanny broke free and has significant colonies, much more than France, and Norway conquered Sweden and controls Vinland and part of Mexico.

[tonberrian]

The patch notes for 1.11 are out, as well as an announcement of some free flavor DLC. Looks good, comes out Sunday.

[Flickerdart]

The patch notes for 1.11 are out, as well as an announcement of some free flavor DLC. Looks good, comes out Sunday.

I love the ending - "Furthermore, Tunis must be destroyed."

[tonberrian]

So right now I'm practising modding, currently starting with a lookover of the idea groups and trying to make Economic and Administrative a little more distinct, plus a little more thematic switching.

[Leecros]

I love the ending - "Furthermore, Tunis must be destroyed."

Tunis is probably one of my favorite nations to play though....

[Flickerdart]

Tunis is probably one of my favorite nations to play though....

Oh yeah? I've never really given the Muslims a go, either in EU4 or CK2. What kind of good stuff does Tunis get that makes it fun?

[OrcusMcP]

Oh yeah? I've never really given the Muslims a go, either in EU4 or CK2. What kind of good stuff does Tunis get that makes it fun?

Tunis in CK2 is one of my favourite starts ever. If you haven't tried the Sultan of Africa in 1066, do it. Do it now.

Haven't given Tunis in EU4 a proper go yet, but I probably will soon now that North Africa is actually decent since the AoW patch. From what I've gathered, though, it's not as good a place to be as in CK2, but that's typical for most of the Muslim powers (except the Ottomans).

There are some events that fire in the early years to represent the Maghreb's fading star, so you're fighting uphill anyway. Tunis isn't a great trade hub anymore, with value only coming in from one node, and the rest pointing towards Genoa and Sevilla. If you can get control of Tlemcen and Morocco, Tunis can likely be a solid power, but the Iberians have a bunch of missions pointing them towards North Africa, so you'll be fighting them constantly. Genoa has missions pointed at you specifically, and if Naples gets their act together they may come after you as well.

Plus, you'll have the Mamluks and Ottomans on your other side. The Ottomans have some events and missions relating to you, and the Mamluks are going to be a thorn no matter what.

I have a feeling that you will have to do a lot of fighting everyone just to keep up, colonise down the sahara to take the wealth of interior Africa, try to westernize off of Spain/Portugal and then push them out. You could probably do a little Carthaginian resurgence if you manage to shatter Spain.

[tonberrian]

You could probably do a little Carthaginian resurgence if you manage to shatter Spain.

Which is exactly what the line at the end of the patch notes is talking about, so we come full circle.

[rweird]

I love the ending - "Furthermore, Tunis must be destroyed."

I was confused by that. Anyone care too explain?

Rest of the patch looks good. I wonder if this fixes the issue of rebels revolting in occupied provinces, and then you peace-ing out leaving nationalists or patriots who want to make you release a nation you don't have.

[Flickerdart]

Tunis in CK2 is one of my favourite starts ever. If you haven't tried the Sultan of Africa in 1066, do it. Do it now.

Aren't you flanked by megablobs on both sides? I try to avoid them when I can.

[AgentPaper]

Tunis in CK2 is one of my favourite starts ever. If you haven't tried the Sultan of Africa in 1066, do it. Do it now.

Haven't given Tunis in EU4 a proper go yet, but I probably will soon now that North Africa is actually decent since the AoW patch. From what I've gathered, though, it's not as good a place to be as in CK2, but that's typical for most of the Muslim powers (except the Ottomans).

There are some events that fire in the early years to represent the Maghreb's fading star, so you're fighting uphill anyway. Tunis isn't a great trade hub anymore, with value only coming in from one node, and the rest pointing towards Genoa and Sevilla. If you can get control of Tlemcen and Morocco, Tunis can likely be a solid power, but the Iberians have a bunch of missions pointing them towards North Africa, so you'll be fighting them constantly. Genoa has missions pointed at you specifically, and if Naples gets their act together they may come after you as well.

Plus, you'll have the Mamluks and Ottomans on your other side. The Ottomans have some events and missions relating to you, and the Mamluks are going to be a thorn no matter what.

I have a feeling that you will have to do a lot of fighting everyone just to keep up, colonise down the sahara to take the wealth of interior Africa, try to westernize off of Spain/Portugal and then push them out. You could probably do a little Carthaginian resurgence if you manage to shatter Spain.

Recently did a Tunis run myself, and I definitely agree that they're a lot of fun. The Ottomans are a great ally, and if you manage things right, they'll never turn against you. Specifically, for them to get the missions for Tripolitania or Tunisia, they need to control Alexandria, so as long as you hold that, you can prevent them from getting those missions, even if your alliance breaks (being allied also prevents those missions, though that's less reliable). As long as you take Alexandria before the Ottomans get the Conquer Egypt mission, they won't get a claim on it, since that mission only gives claims on Mamluk holdings in the region.

In fact, in my campaign, I went so far as to conquer the entire Egyptian region, making sure to take Sinai before the Ottomans finished taking the Levant, such that once the Ottomans were done they had no border with the Mamluks (another requirement for the mission), allowing me to finish swallowing up the Mamluks at my leisure. Holding Alexandria also prevents them from getting the mission for Hejaz, so as long as I beat them to it I'll be able to grab that up freely as well.

Aside from that, I've taken over all of northern Africa, and took Exploration both to give me an in-road into central and southern Africa, and even started up a few colonies in South America, just to mess with the Europeans (already got into one conflict with Spain, which I just managed to fend off with white peace).

[OrcusMcP]

Aren't you flanked by megablobs on both sides? I try to avoid them when I can.

Come on over to the CK2 thread and let me sell you on how awesome the start is.

[Leecros]

Oh yeah? I've never really given the Muslims a go, either in EU4 or CK2. What kind of good stuff does Tunis get that makes it fun?

Mainly, they're in a good position to do just about anything you want.If you wanted to be a major naval power, then you're right next to the Mediterranean. They also get some decent ideas in the generic Berber national ideas that help them with that. Their location in the deserter North Africa and idea that gives enemies +1 attrition mean that if you are invaded by major powers, then you can attrition them down to a more manageable size.They're in a great position to colonize with relative ease, especially if you hit Morocco...Although they might be a little slow. They can easily westernize off of Spanish cores in Morocco and all of the Berber nations around them except morocco are small enough to vassalize, so you can get around the +100% coring cost. Even Morocco has cores that you can break out of them to avoid it all together. The ottomans are usually friendly towards you, which is enough to keep the Mamluks and european powers at bay and they can colonize into central africa to take advantage of that area. They also have the Iqta government type(+100% increased heir chance, +33% vassal income, -.05 autonomy change) which is nice to have the autonomy reduction so early. Of course the Iqta government is also shared with several middle-eastern and Arabian powers, but it's still an all right government type to start out with.

At the end of the day, there's just a lot you can do with Tunis. The world is your canvas. If you want to start a colonial power, you can. Want to conquer italy? You can. Iberia? Sure. France...well,it is France, but maybe someday. Want to start a massive trade empire? why not? Your Berber traditions do help you with trade a bit with higher naval forcelimits and increased trade income and power.

Personally, i played kind of a troll Tunis, although this was before the latest expansion and i didn't want to continue it due to concerns about potential instability after the patch. I took Espionage Ideas and trolled the heck out of nations like Castile and The Mamluks when they invaded me by letting them invade my land, take lots of attrition, get lots of war exhaustion, and then support rebels on them. I also utilized privateers to get some absurdly high Power Projection(45 without any decay. 25 from sending privateers against Portugal, Castile, and The Mamluks, +15 for longtime rivals +5 from embargoes). I also made Muscovy collapse without ever having been at war with them. Just waiting for them to get into a nasty war with Lithuania/Sweden and funding rebels until they rebelled, rinse and repeat until most of them had rebelled. Of course support rebels now has like a 5 year cooldown if you get caught, so maybe not as effective. However, pre El-dorado it was quite fun. With Privateers getting a bit of a buff with treasure fleets and such, i'd imagine it hasn't changed much.

[rweird]

One thing you got wrong is how increased coring cost now increases diplo-annexation cost as well.

[Leecros]

One thing you got wrong is how increased coring cost now increases diplo-annexation cost as well.

It's still effectively half the cost since diploannexation base cost is 10/base tax and coring base cost being 20/base tax and diplo power is arguably less useful than admin power anyway.

[Grif]

Hope Paradox tweaks the AI's willingness to make peace. Not so much between human and AI, but rather between AI v AI battles. Stalemated wars that last for twenty odd years are not fun.

[Sange]

Most of the time it's because the AI can't go siege some islands and stays at 99% WS. It's really annoying, in one of my games France carpeted Portugal for 20+ years without peacing out.