[3.5] Awesome uses for Silent Image

[Gildedragon]

The biggest problem with a silent image pit is that if one can do that it obviates invisibility, as you can just make an area of the room having nothing in it (same principle as making a bit of ground with nothing in it) making anyone and anything inside of it vanish.

[Kantolin]

It's the difference between making things and taking them away. Think of Silent Image like a 3D printer. I have yet to see a 3D printer that can dig a hole.

A 3d printer makes a physical object. An image spell makes magic. Silent image won't let you replace a heart, you can't peg someone in the head with it, it makes something that totally isn't real, and isn't bound by physics. A 3d print of a dragon cannot roar, flap its wings, and then commence tap dancing.

As a comparison... if I create an illusion of a cat, it is interfering with your seeing the ground. If I make an illusion of a hole, it is interfering with your seeing the ground. Requiring a skill check could be fine if I was informed in advance that this would be the case, but an illusionist who can't make a pit seems really weird to me.

(Which isn't the end of the world, mind you - I can accept people ruling it that way - it's just not how I've ever seen it ruled unless the DM in question was highly anti-illusion in general)

Is there some game balance issue I'm not seeing here? As I can accept 'you can't do that because it would be imbalanced to do so' - but extending a ledge and reducing a ledge sound like effects of the same magnitude, and both are stopped by a walking stick that's tapped in front of you.

Edit:

The biggest problem with a silent image pit is that if one can do that it obviates invisibility, as you can just make an area of the room having nothing in it, making anyone and anything inside of it vanish.

Of the myriad of uses for invisibility, 'we are standing still and making an ambush point' is probably the weakest thereof. I mean, you could just make an illusion of a bush or table that covers your fighter friend anyway.

That's not the same as 'making a pit on the ground where there isn't one' anyway.

[dextercorvia]

The point is not to create a pit. You simply make the edge of the ravine appear to extend further out than it actually does. No one falls into an image of a pit. They can fall through an illusory ravinecliff, however.

1st level pathfinder campaign. Rather than Ghost Sound I used it in conjuction with Message. We spotted Orcs a distance away in the trees, trying to get the jump on us. 1st round I cast Message, and warned them this caravan was under My protection, without saying specifically what I was. 2nd round precombat, I cast a Silent Image of some big ugly thing in between us, and kept talking to them through the Message. They ran the other way so fast. I was a little bummed when the DM didn't give us XP for that, though.

[Gildedragon]

Of the myriad of uses for invisibility, 'we are standing still and making an ambush point' is probably the weakest thereof. I mean, you could just make an illusion of a bush or table that covers your fighter friend anyway.

You make it bigger than the rogue and let them attack invisibly and move while readying an action to move the illusion with the rogue.

[georgie_leech]

The point is not to create a pit. You simply make the edge of the ravine appear to extend further out than it actually does. No one falls into an image of a pit. They can fall through an illusory ravine, however.

This. For the record I'm not anti-illusion, I'm against giving spells more powers than I think they should have. I think it aids creativity to have to work within constraints, rather than just going all out with low level spells. At one point my players had to hide a partially burnt building from the resident authority figures. The illusionist threw up a Silent image of the building undamaged, but since it was still smoldering, to make the smoke seem normal he added a chimney. That's the kind of clever play I can appreciate. (The ravine one would also work, in the extended edge form. Unless they have extensive experience with the terrain, I wouldn't even offer a will save for the first person to fall, and if the illusionist is concentrating enough to make the "edge" crumble, neither would the next guy.)

[Kantolin]

You make it bigger than the rogue and let them attack invisibly and move while readying an action to move the illusion with the rogue.

That is much more likely to be interacted with than if you'd actually used invisibility, and if they interact with it it's going to go away. This is why rain would make a horrible illusion.

(Also why can't the rogue just hide in an illusory cabinet? Same effect - and if you have it bang open then they'll still assume it's a real cabinet once the rogue jumps out!)

And yes - nobody could fall into an illusory pit since it's not real. This is part of why I don't think an illusory pit would be terribly potent either - it might make someone go around it, but that's about it and other things can prompt that. An illusion of 'the cliff extends further to the mountain' will just mean that nobody will get to the actual end. You're better off making a real pit and then an illusion of land over it.

Edit: Also, I'm not specifically stating that people here are horrible illusion haters or anything. Just am pointing out that regardless of your opinion on whether you can or cannot make pits, there are a healthy chunk of people who rule (or house rule) that it's acceptable to do, so suggestions should involve that. Illusions do tend to be more DM-dependent than other things.

[bekeleven]

I'm amazed at how many people here are convinced Silent Image can be a first-level Invisibility Sphere. No, creating an image in 3D space does not do that. If you create an image of the background, the perspective will only work from 1 angle. If you create an image of nothing, then you've failed to cover yourself up.

[Jeff the Green]

Let's put it this way: is a pit an object, creature, or force? No, it's the absence of an object; you cannot disintegrate it, paint it, or animate it. Neither can you make an illusion of it with silent image.

Edit:
I can't believe I forgot this, but the designers obviously didn't think you could make a pit with silent image either. Why? Because there's a specific spell for that: illusory pit. It is, as I suggested was necessary, a glamer rather than a figment and quite limited: a 10' cube/level compared to silent image's 4 cubes plus 1/level, and it's a friggin sixth-level spell!

[Gildedragon]

Let's put it this way: is a pit an object, creature, or force? No, it's the absence of an object; you cannot disintegrate it, paint it, or animate it. Neither can you make an illusion of it with silent image.

Edit:
I can't believe I forgot this, but the designers obviously didn't think you could make a pit with silent image either. Why? Because there's a specific spell for that: illusory pit. It is, as I suggested was necessary, a glamer rather than a figment and quite limited: a 10' cube/level compared to silent image's 4 cubes plus 1/level, and it's a friggin sixth-level spell!

Though the 6th level one makes you think you are falling, so there's that.

I personally prefer the 4th level one from 3.0 which is virtually identical except it is a figment and just the image of a pit, and not the sensation of one as well

[Jeff the Green]

Though the 6th level one makes you think you are falling, so there's that.

I personally prefer the 4th level one from 3.0 which is virtually identical except it is a figment and just the image of a pit, and not the sensation of one as well

Yeah, I ignore that one. First because it's from Savage Species, but also because it violates the rules of illusions. Specifically, "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else." You're making a floor (or whatever) appear to be empty space, which isn't kosher.

[Kantolin]

I would like to again note that, regardless of one's opinion on whether you can or cannot make pits with an image, there are a healthy chunk of people who rule (or house rule) that it's acceptable to do, so suggestions should involve that. Illusions do tend to be more DM-dependent than other things.

The developers are not known for their infallibility, the spell does other things, and down that road lies 'you cannot yell someone awake because there's a spell that does' or other such nonsense.

Mechanically, all an illusory pit does is possibly get people to avoid it (And if they don't, the 'lack of falling' will auto disbelieve). So from a game balance perspective I'm not seeing the problem - you're much better off using a real pit and making an illusion to shield it than making an illusory pit. As really, I could accept 'for game balance purposes you can't do X', but in this case it's not even a big deal.

[nedz]

Silent Image does depend up the DM

A fake plank (or bridge) across the ravine is a simpler way of fooling someone.

Some I have done

• Being charged by cavalry: A line of Pikemen. Now the riders probably won't believe it, but horses are not so smart.
• A glowing image of a holy symbol in front of a Vampire: He failed his will save and withdrew.
• A 45^o mirror at a 90^o bend in a corridor so that it appears to be straight: plan here is to waste ranged attacks until someone charges into the wall.

[Segev]

"I make an illusion of empty space where the party is standing" is, effectively, invisibility. Silent Image is not invisibility.

This is why making illusory pits doesn't work. You want illusory obstacles, instead.

You have to make illusions of things behind which others can hide, if you want Silent Image to help hide stuff.

As for more awesome uses, this one depends on the DM: If you make an illusion of a mirror, do you have to make up what it reflects, or will it show a true reflection?

[jedipotter]

As for more awesome uses, this one depends on the DM

This is so true.

A classic is to make bait. For example, a bag of gold coins. Now most folks will stop and pick up a bag of gold coins, no matter what else they are doing. After all most people will stop and pick up a bag of money. But some DM's will just be like ''they ignore it''. It's worse when it's bandits, and they are even more likely to go for easy money on the ground then fighting for money.

I always liked 'light shows'. Using silent image to make ''the door glows with red light'' or ''blue whisps of light whirl around the table'' or even ''white lightning flashes over his head''.

I don't let silent image make pits. That would be a [glamor]. You can't cast a silent image on a creature or object.

[Threadnaught]

I don't let silent image make pits. That would be a [glamor]. You can't cast a silent image on a creature or object.

Neither do I.

I would however, allow it to "make" pits.


You like to put Silent Image on a Door, an Object, yet you don't... What? I don't even...

[jedipotter]

Neither do I.

I would however, allow it to "make" pits.


You like to put Silent Image on a Door, an Object, yet you don't... What? I don't even...

Well, you'd make a ''glowing cloud near the door'' technically. Silent Image, as a [Figment] can't alter the appearance of a person, place or thing. That is what [glamors] do. As an illusion fan, I have like 100 homebrewed illusions like 'light glow', a 1st level [glamor] illusion that makes things glow. And 'create pit' as a [phantasm].

I'm also a fan of 'role play' illusions, like where the spell ''makes his eyes glow red'', and not boring, mechancial illusion like ''this spell gives you a +2 bonus to intimidate.'' I'll take an effect that gets a player to react for real over the more cold table of ''oh, your character is scared take a -2 and try and role play''.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Bigby's Expressive Single Digit.

[TypoNinja]

Bigby's Expressive Single Digit.

I believe you mean Bigby's Insulting Hand, good sir.

And yes I've done that. I forget exactly why, its faded behind the more important information. Somebody in a large keep had annoyed me for whatever reason so as we left I conjured up a 50 foot tall hand giving the old One Fingered Salute.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I believe you mean Bigby's Insulting Hand, good sir.

...No, I mean Expressive Single Digit.

[Erik Vale]

To regain spells, you need 8 hours peace, not sleep. [someone can grab an exact quote if they wish]
Silent image is a unlimited duration concentration spell. Depending on how much exertion your DM rules that to be, you could easily sleep completely hidden from most troubles by having your party set up a camp without fire, being quite, and having your wizard maintain a silent image of a bolder or other large inanimate object over the campsight. Being inside it, you all disbelieve and see through it, so you can even keep watch through it.
Oh, and with it being reducable to something your familiar concentrates on or a swift action means that there's not much for saying no, other than it making others feel useless... Oh, and removing fatigue/exhaution.

I've yet to have the opportunity to do it, but I plan to.

[TypoNinja]

...No, I mean Expressive Single Digit.

Ahhh we're referencing different bits of nerd humor. Along with Peter Anspach's list of Rules for an Evil Overlord there was a list of 95 Spells Never Meant to be Memorized. Either my google is weak or the list has since fallen off the internet, but number three is Bigby's Insulting Hand.

Other gems include, Cure Light Winds, Dimension Doorknob, Legend Lore Extended Dance Mix, and Shocking Gasp (usually follows Tenser's Shocking Suggestion).

[VoxRationis]

That won't actually work. You'd need a glamer to create the appearance of a pit; the best a figment could do is a 2D image of the ravine over solid ground, which isn't exactly convincing.

I'm sorry; where are you getting that? The d20 srd mentions nothing about such limitations while discussing the properties of figments and glamers. The former, apparently, simply creates a "false sensation," while the latter affects the appearance of an existing object. A "false sensation" can be made in a 3D fashion, or at least one which changes depending on perspective in a fashion approximating 3D.

Anyway, one I just thought of is in creating an image of a potion superimposed on a vial of poison standing on a table or something. The victim sees a potion, reaches out, finds a glass container where he expects one to be, and seizes it. Most people wouldn't read the label as they drink it, so unless they put it in a sack of potions for a while, they'd probably end up drinking the poison.

[Segev]

A "false sensation" can be made in a 3D fashion, or at least one which changes depending on perspective in a fashion approximating 3D.

The problem is that it's hard to claim that you can create an illusion of something NOT being there with a figment. A glamor specifically changes something's appearance, which can include putting holes in it. A figment creates "a false sensation," but that doesn't override the specifics that Silent Image creates a visible illusion.

Again, if Silent Image could create a pit, it could also create an illusion of something "not being there," which is basically Invisibility.

Anyway, one I just thought of is in creating an image of a potion superimposed on a vial of poison standing on a table or something. The victim sees a potion, reaches out, finds a glass container where he expects one to be, and seizes it. Most people wouldn't read the label as they drink it, so unless they put it in a sack of potions for a while, they'd probably end up drinking the poison.[/QUOTE]

[Dalebert]

I've been inspired by this thread. My witch just got the fly hex. I'm going to tell my DM that I'm practicing using flight to appear to be walking on surfaces that aren't there. Combine an illusion of a bridge or a ledge with me running across it or just standing on it. Now it's a little more dynamic and still believable. You don't have to "fix" a bridge while no one is looking. You can "summon" a bridge, maybe make it look like a wall of stone spell, and then run across it to get away from the baddies.

Side note: Cloak of the Hedge Mage (Illusion) is not a bad item. Let's you cast ghost sound at will and silent image once a day and without verbal components in case you need some discretion, e.g. you're hiding and need to create a distraction.

[Seharvepernfan]

You can make writing appear on a wall, or change writing on a wall that is already there.

You can make a marker or signal that people can see from far away (like a tall bright red pillar).

When fleeing opponents, you can turn a corner from them and hide, then quickly cast the spell to make a closed door appear on a nearby wall, then have it "disappear" when your opponents get near, so they think you went through the door that just disappeared.

Similarly, you could make an image of yourself that disappears, either by walking into a wall or by "casting a spell" then disappearing.