Is the rest of the Vector Legion at least uneasy with Tarquin's rape attempts?

[Legato Endless]

Good point. I'm falling into one of two thoughts on this line:

Either forced marriage is legal and Tarquin is so puppy-kickingly villainous he tortures then into saying yes, or it's illegal and the torture (while a swell bonus for him) is actually necessary to get his way.

The latter probably. Tarquin probably doesn't recognize forced marriage. Marriage is a choice between two consenting adults. Sometimes the "consent" just needs some guidance and reinforcement. Or rather, I don't think he cares whether forces marriage is legal currently, but rather that marriage is done in a certain way. He adheres to this model...ans will help it along in a pinch. This fits with his "guidance" of his children. Prospective wife needs to say yes, because that's how these things are done.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Miron, as an arcane caster, may possibly Rival her for that. possibly.

But if he is a sorcerer, his highest stat is probably Charisma and he may have average or even low Intelligence.

[Peelee]

But if he is a sorcerer, his highest stat is probably Charisma and he may have average or even low Intelligence.

My money's on sorcerer. He just acts....sorcerery.

Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but I rather like playing high-Int sorcerers.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My money's on sorcerer. He just acts....sorcerery.

Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but I rather like playing high-Int sorcerers.

I wouldn't specifically say any class, but I have the feeling that he has a relatively lower INT score.

[St Fan]

Who knows, maybe the rest of Tarquin's party disapproves of his forced marriages silliness... because it's a whole waste of time and money.

"Sheesh, Tarquin, can't you just rape and then kill the girls, just like any villain worth his salt? Or better yet, force them into a whole harem of sex slaves?! That would be so much more efficient!"

[Darth Paul]

Vampire stats increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. Constitution becomes -, due to death.

Which, in the case of a lizardfolk vampire, translates to, "Your racial Intelligence -2 goes away, leaving you exactly as smart as if you were a human with the same base stats!" I wouldn't be surprised at all if Malack was running on an Intelligence penalty.

Malack isn't a standard lizardfolk like Gannji, he may be a serpent folk of some undefined type. We have seen that he has a prehensile body/tail that he uses to grapple Durkon, that is not a lizardfolk feature. I still wouldn't bet against his INT being in the high teens; combine that with his Cleric WIS and he is one sharp cookie.

[Peelee]

Malack isn't a standard lizardfolk like Gannji, he may be a serpent folk of some undefined type. We have seen that he has a prehensile body/tail that he uses to grapple Durkon, that is not a lizardfolk feature. I still wouldn't bet against his INT being in the high teens; combine that with his Cleric WIS and he is one sharp cookie.

I'd take that bet. Malack describes his old self as "ignorant," meaning (aside from obvious contempt for his body's previous inhabitant) he very likely did not have a high Int score. I'd be surprised if it was over 14, post-vampirization. Remember, 10-11 is average. High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

[Koo Rehtorb]

"Ignorant" can mean "poorly educated".

[Keltest]

"Ignorant" can mean "poorly educated".

Even so, one with 18 intelligence is not ignorant. Intelligence represents more than factual knowledge; its also your ability to learn, acquire and process information, things like that. A lizardfolk shaman with high teens intelligence would practically be able to use information they picked up casually and their own intuition to seem smart without ever having been properly educated.

[Vinyadan]

There also is the religious aspect. The shaman may have not worshipped Nergal; he could also have been about a totally different pantheon. High Priest Malak could see this as a sign of ignorance.

But think of how different you are from 10-20 years ago, and think of how a malevolent creature with an extremely long lifespan must judge the inexperienced, short lived being from which it came to life.

[Peelee]

There also is the religious aspect. The shaman may have not worshipped Nergal; he could also have been about a totally different pantheon. High Priest Malak could see this as a sign of ignorance.

That would make his friendship with Durkon.... interesting.

But think of how different you are from 10-20 years ago, and think of how a malevolent creature with an extremely long lifespan must judge the inexperienced, short lived being from which it came to life.

True, but if my old self was incredibly smart, I wouldn't label myself as "ignorant." I'm not saying he was particularly stupid, I just don't think he had any higher than a 14 thrown in Int. Which, again, isn't stupid. It's above average. It's smart. Just not nearly as smart as a wizard or psion, especially a high-level one.

[Darth Paul]

I'd take that bet. Malack describes his old self as "ignorant," meaning (aside from obvious contempt for his body's previous inhabitant) he very likely did not have a high Int score. I'd be surprised if it was over 14, post-vampirization. Remember, 10-11 is average. High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

The way vampirism works in OOTS may also be not exactly the way it works in D&D. The HPoH, in taking over Durkon, may not be tied directly to Durkon's mental stats, nor was Malack neccesarily tied to the INT of his body's original occupant. We would have to ask Rich about that, I guess. (Suppose he's reading?)

[Peelee]

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

The way vampirism works in OOTS may also be not exactly the way it works in D&D. The HPoH, in taking over Durkon, may not be tied directly to Durkon's mental stats, nor was Malack neccesarily tied to the INT of his body's original occupant. We would have to ask Rich about that, I guess. (Suppose he's reading?)

In my opinion, youre overestimating the numbers. Also, knowledge checks ate added bonuses to Int, not straight Int scores.

[Kish]

I totally do not see where either of you is seeing above-average (never mind genius) Intelligence in anything Malack ever said or did.

(As for, "He could be a variant creature with an Intelligence bonus instead of a penalty"--yes, and he could also be a variant vampire with an Intelligence penalty instead of a [trivial] bonus. Either pointing to Malack's race and creature type to form theories about his Intelligence is valid or it is not, and it's really a wash either way.)

[Nilehus]

The closest he came to being cunning was the whole spell backdoor thing. Other than that, he was otherwise pretty normal in intelligence.

He was wise, very much so, but not remarkably intelligent. 12, 14 tops.

[Peelee]

The closest he came to being cunning was the whole spell backdoor thing. Other than that, he was otherwise pretty normal in intelligence.

He was wise, very much so, but not remarkably intelligent. 12, 14 tops.

That is what I've been (poorly) trying to say. No way over 14, probably 10-12.

Kish, as to where I'm basing the average-to-above average intelligence, is in his tactics, discussions with Durkon, and eventual plan for the future. Wisdom on its own leaves room for general silliness, as Durkon shows occasionally; wisdom plus intelligence makes a more thoughtful-minded person, which Malack appeared to be. I'm aware personality plays a large role in this, I'll admit there's little basis for evidence, as he didn't have tons of screen time, but that's how it read to me. Not saying he couldn't have been running at average or even an Int penalty, but as there's little evidence either way, I prefer to go with my first instinct.

[CaDzilla]

High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

Couldn't resist

[Peelee]

Couldn't resist

It took me until this morning to get that, but it was worth it. Good show, sir.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It took me until this morning to get that, but it was worth it. Good show, sir.

Wow, I only just got it now too. Bravo, Cadzilla.

[Unisus]

Knowledge hasn't much to do with intelligence - high intelligence does not mean that you know everything, and you can know a lot even though you have below average intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to use that knowledge for your purposes.

[Vinyadan]

That would make his friendship with Durkon.... interesting.

Right, I didn't consider that. Although he does call him a priest of equal standing, which means that there are others of higher or lower standing to him, some of which he may consider ignorant. Which is so long-winded, which stops adressing the point

True, but if my old self was incredibly smart, I wouldn't label myself as "ignorant." I'm not saying he was particularly stupid, I just don't think he had any higher than a 14 thrown in Int. Which, again, isn't stupid. It's above average. It's smart. Just not nearly as smart as a wizard or psion, especially a high-level one.

I think that there is a linguistic problem here. To me, ignorant is someone who doesn't know something, and the world can be an acknowledgment (said by the person to which it refers) as well as an insult (like, someone who doesn't know enough), but doesn't really express much about intelligence. Shaman Malak could have been very smart, but, in comparison to High Cleric, 200 years old Malak, he must seem quite the ignorant.

I agree on the fact that we haven't seen Malak doing anything miraculously intelligent, and that there is no need for a 15-18 Int to explain his action.

Also, a little thing which may help answer the OP: Nale says that one VL protocol is "Business before pleasure". Tarquin's habit counts as pleasure. When business was done, there likely wasn't anyone to hold him off, and some even joined in (like Miron), and likely had some deranged fun out of it.

[Knaight]

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

As for harder numbers - Malack's vampire template would counter the whole lizard thing. Aging bonuses confer +3 - 10.5 isn't actually average, it's average for a young adult, the elderly are at 13.5, and Malack is clearly supposed to be analogous to someone who is more middle aged or upward.

[Aquillion]

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

I think it's just reasonable logic.

There was a thread earlier that tried to assign IQs to Intelligence values based on the assumption that everyone in the world rolls 3d6 straight down the line (and therefore, ~2.7% of the population is intelligence 18 or above); this leads to weird results, but it's one legitimate way of approaching it. If you assume that things are like that, then it's reasonable to assume that eg. a brilliant scientist is probably in that 2.7%, probably has a few levels, and possibly spent any stat gains they made from leveling up on further expanding their mind.

I think that that's a lot of 'probably', but it makes a lot more sense to me than treating Int 18 as impossible, incomprehensibly superhuman; stats are meant to model the human range, and in the original roll-3d6-straight-down method, ~2.7% of PCs will have it. (More if you use 4d6-drop-lowest, of course, let alone point buy.) PCs are exceptional, but a first-level character is not meant to be that exceptional; I don't think it makes any sense to assume that 2.7% of first-level characters have an incomprehensibly vast transhuman intellect.

Tarquin, on the other hand... may not be intelligent or wise at all. It feels like he understands genre tropes, but has almost no ability to interpret or understand situations outside them. I feel like he could actually have very mediocre mental scores, with his "brilliance" coming from maxed ranks of Knowledge (Fantasy Genre) or something along those lines. This would explain why he basically falls apart when things fail to match that expectation.

(I also think that a lot of people dramatically overestimated his intelligence because he did so well at handling Elan and the group earlier. The thing is -- he held all the cards there, and was dealing with Elan, who is both naive and his son. Those are softball things. We have no real evidence that Tarquin is at all competent under more genuinely difficult circumstances -- recent evidence suggests no -- and we don't know how much of the actual thinking and planning is done by his teammates.)

[Darth Paul]

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

Well, if 18 is meant to represent Genius intelligence, then I assume that a real-live Genius would have an 18 or above if he were a D&D character. Stephen Hawking invented a whole new branch of physics (or at least, improved our understanding of it beyond all measure), so he is perhaps a step above that. Bill Gates created the present-day computer for all intents and purposes (yes, he had help, he wasn't the only one, but nevertheless, he was right in there), so likewise, 18 or 19 INT.

Wisdom is harder to quantify, but I would have to say someone like Gandhi would be 18 WIS in D&D terms. Probably 18 CHR too. The Pope is right up there as well, whether one agrees with him or not, although no Pope recently has done more than lead an existing institution, so maybe they have more CHA than WIS these days. But I think they have to be above average INT too to manage such a massive institution, even with the College of Cardinals to do much of the work- they all started as Cardinals before becoming Pope, and that is no job for a dummie.

So it's just reading the stat charts, which say 10-11 is average, 18 is genius, and extrapolating from there.

[Koo Rehtorb]

There was a thread earlier that tried to assign IQs to Intelligence values based on the assumption that everyone in the world rolls 3d6 straight down the line (and therefore, ~2.7% of the population is intelligence 18 or above)

I think this is a flawed premise that throws calculations wildly off. I see no reason to assume that everyone in the world throws dice for stat generation.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Just a note that, among scientists, Stephen Hawking is not particularly exceptional, although he is quite famous and that has... advantages. He's a great human and very smart, but not a super-genius or anything

[CaDzilla]

Tarquin, on the other hand... may not be intelligent or wise at all. It feels like he understands genre tropes, but has almost no ability to interpret or understand situations outside them. I feel like he could actually have very mediocre mental scores, with his "brilliance" coming from maxed ranks of Knowledge (Fantasy Genre) or something along those lines. This would explain why he basically falls apart when things fail to match that expectation.

I chalk up Tarquin's perceived intellect to his arrogance. His interactions with Miron and Laurin deflated his ego, and that's why he seems less smart than before.

[Peelee]

I'm wondering if we shouldn't take this over to the CLG thread

[CaDzilla]

I'm wondering if we shouldn't take this over to the CLG thread

They have a rule against this kind of speculating

Frequently Asked Questions
Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a theory out there that real life people never get very far beyond level six? Or am I misremembering?