Legend of Korra Book 3: Bending over Backwards

[Marcelinari]

(1) That's great, except you don't see any of that, and the story doesn't tell you any of that. You're told "10,000 years ago..." and then you see... hey it looks pretty much like ATLA except painting brush lines. Which is why I said Kitten Champ's idea could introduce the Golden Age without it seeming to be a writers' oversight/ laziness (which despite your plausible explanation you know it is). While "traveling back through time" visiting her past lives, Korra could have encountered exactly the historical changes you're interpreting.

I'm reluctant to ascribe oversight or laziness to anyone without having met them. I admit that Korra's visions of the past may have been an interesting set of stories, but it's unlikely they would have all been able to relate to the ongoing plot without seeming shoehorned and contrived. As it is, Wan's vision related directly to the conflict and adversary at hand.

I'm also not sure that Wan's fireturtle culture was an 'antediluvian golden age' - the city on the turtle may have been relatively well-built, but I don't remember it being a particularly impressive city, mostly reminiscent of feudal era Japan, or maybe China. Personally, I think the architecture was more shorthand, a demonstration of the cultural heritage of the Fire Nation, which in Aang's time had strongly Imperial Japanese tones.

Demonstrating why a thing is is, in my opinion, less important than showing how said thing is important. That said, I came up with my explanation without exactly straining my creative impulses - all the information was there, either in LoK or TLA, I just kind of made logical connections from one to the next.

EDIT: Also, if you're not contesting that people from 10,000 years ago would be as evolved as people in LoK, why would you suggest that Wan should be a caveman? He lived on a turtle.

[Metahuman1]

Marcelinari: Nitpick, the fire nation of Aangs time was meant to be Ancient Chinese, not Japanese, per the creators, as far as there ascetics for buildings and weapons and armor and such went.


MLai: Right, at this point, I'm just convinced that no matter what is done or by who or for what reason, as long as the show says Legend of Korra on it or even mentions anyone ever mentioned on it even existed, your going to hate it on principle everything else be damned.

This is sort of amusing for me cause I have franchises I hate with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns that other people like, but at least if they do something totally different I'm willing to cut the totally different thing some slack and can actually enjoy it. Which means you actually hate Korra MORE then I hate those franchises, and anyone who's seen me talk about them in there dedicated threads can vouch that I HATE those franchises.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you're getting a little mono-theistic on a pantheistic setting. Still, lets look at how you read it.

Trying to dissect the "big gulf" between the ATLA "Legend" and the LOK "Origin" Avatar difference. I see a consistent reading here that you see Legend as not established as Aang's actual powers, but other people's understanding of Aang's powers based on myths (always at odds with what Aang actually displays). This is perfectly agreeable to my reading that Origin isn't really different from "Legend" as both series establish a pretty consistent take on what powers the Avatar actually possesses, and there seems to be a wide gulf in what different people expect from the Avatar (I mean in season 1 of LOK there are doubts as to whether the Avatar can even be the top pro-bender).

"Eternal Wisdom" (infallibility in all situations ever) Part of the humor in ATLA is that people expected Aang to be incredibly wise about almost everything in their lives and yet he was just a 12 year old kid doing his best. At the same time he was Incredibly wise about people in a number of very surprising ways.

Here's the thing, I only remember a few episodes in which people expect amazing wisdom from this 12 year old Aang and I can't even remember how of it is people relying on Aang or Aang trying to live up to expectations or his role as Avatar. I recall in "The Great Divide" Aang brings a group together. However, from what I recall and your mention of the "humor" of these situations, is that Aang really is a 12 year old mentally, and so the expectations are established as being inflated even as they are introduced.

Part of the point of a "Legend" reading is that after 10,000 years of word-of-mouth it should be impossible for anyone to live up to the expectation. Aang certainly didn't through most of the series, and yet he kept coming close enough that the audience (and the people of his world) could see it being possible that he would live up once he'd grown up.

Which muddies the waters a bit more. If the "Legend" is established in ATLA as being a mythical view of the Avatar, not the actual Avatar's powers, then the Legend is not contradictory with the Origin explanation at all, which is all of what I'm saying that there is one consistent reading of the Avatars powers, that the Avatar franchise is not like the Superman one (where the main characters powers grow and shrink over time in very obvious ways).

Any specific example of this is going to be nuanced and different, but the human element of these events is very slow to change and even in just talking with past lives, the Avatar has perspective and experience dealing with these matters far beyond what anyone else would. Infailable? certainly not. Wise beyond their years (even at a venerable age) certainly. At the same time, the Avatar is assumed to know more about spirits than anyone else, being able to interact with them while they remain cut-off from everyone else. As such the spiritual elements of the world are open for the Avatar to learn in ways others couldn't, and they have real power in the lives of others. As such the Avatar is expected to know which trees are sacred to the Black-and-White spirit, what the appropriate offering to the baboon of meditation is, and how to protect your nightmares from Koh.

We see that Aang doesn't innately have that mystic wisdom, but we also see him gaining it in ATLA as a 12 year old where the only other characters with any idea about that stuff are Onion-and-banana-man and Iroh.

Which sounds like ATLA establishes pretty clearly that the Avatar doesn't innately have wisdom but it does have a tendency to grow, since the Avatar has sources by which he/she can learn this wisdom. It sounds exactly like what was established in LOK season 2. The avatar is/was the bridge between worlds, with past life wisdom and an ability to interact with spirits. Expectations on the Avatar to have specific knowledge often falls short.

I think you're getting a little mono-theistic on a pantheistic setting. Still, lets look at how you read it.

Chosen one (Selected by destiny and unable to fail) This is a product of three things. 1) The avatar is born with a strong Good alignment and incredible bending power. 2) Katara's faith in the Avatar is how we come to learn who or what the Avatar is. 3) Its a children's show.[/QUOTE}

Katara simply tells us that she believe that Aang will save the world, not that she believes the ancient prophecies or in Aang's chosenness or anything remotely approaching the latter. Katara seems to be a big sister figure who believes in Aang's potential based on a well-established trend of what the Avatar does, not someone that believes in Aang the way a cult follower believes in her leader. Also there are points in the show that establishes that the Avatar is vulnerable (the Avatar cycle will be destroyed if Aang is killed in the Avatar state, Aang is nearly killed by Azula and people say Aang won't win against Ozai).

Power beyond measure This is exactly what the Avatar State is shown to be in ATLA. Kyoshi reshaped the world - literally - when she defeated Chen. Aang's bursts were on incredible scales, far beyond even Mecha-Korra power.

Not sure Aang's bursts are meant to be far beyond Mecha-Korra, which is the only place we have a possible "Superman" moment (I recall his greatest moment being at the end of Season 1). I'd have to look in more detail at these displays, though since Raava's powers become greater as Vaatu's powers decline and the two were at a point of being about equal, I surmise there is an in-universe explanation already provided.

Incredible power - Check
Virtue - Not innate
Access to several sources of great wisdom - not innate
Tendency towards establishing and maintaining the balance in the world or Alignment - Check.

All in all everything I see here suggests that the "Origin" story defines the Avatar's power as they always actually were. That the Legend never created the "wide gulf" and the expectations, easily based on actual facts about the Avatar, if somewhat inflated when placed on a 12 year old boy.

The show is ultimately a Children's Show. This means it has obligations different from those of other shows, one of which is providing moral examples. Suggesting that even in the most dire of circumstances, out-and-out violence isn't the 'real' answer is an admirable moral to present children. I wish more adults paid attention that kind of moral. Our world could use more people like Aang.

Except that Aang sparks and leads people to battle and attacks with potentially lethal force on multiple occasions. We simply never see anyone die or get really injured on camera. This is along the lines of GI Joe, and other extremely violent children shows in a long tradition of such, where miraculously no one ever gets hurt. Avatar differs in that they take the step of actually having Aang discuss killing and deciding that it would just be wrong to kill the guy about to bring about a mass atrocity onto the Earth Kingdom. Meanwhile, Aang goes on to initiate a massive battle as basically cover for his big fight where giant airships get destroyed and his friends all risk their lives while, let us note, all wielding real weapons and deadly force.

So no I don't think the world needs more Generals who are only willing to capture and not kill the enemies whose names he knows while willingly sacrificing thousands upon thousands of nameless soldiers.

[BRC]

ATLA exists in the realm of PG-13 Bloodless Combat, where concussive force and explosions are purely non-lethal and any attacks that would draw blood are destined to fail.

An interesting thing about the ending of ATLA is that, as I see it anyway, it's not neccessarily saying that Aang's pacifism is the only correct path. The past Avatars, as well as Aangs friends, all of whom are consistently portrayed as moral voices, all call for Ozai to die.

This is my interpretation, but I don't even see Aang as being conflicted about whether killing Ozai would be the Right thing to do. Aang agrees that Ozai must be stopped.
The issue is that Aang's personal beliefs call for pacifism ,or at least not going into something with the intent of killing somebody, even a genocidal madman.

I see the pacifism as similar to the vegetarianism. Aang is a vegetarian, but he doesn't believe that nobody should eat meat. He personally does not eat meat. Aang agrees that there are some cases where killing is justified, but he personally does not kill. Aang's struggle in the end is to find some way to match his personal beliefs to the reality of the situation. Ozai must be stopped. Aang is the best way to stop him (because if Iroh beat Ozai, it would just be seen as another coup within the Fire Nation, rather than a wake up call to change Fire Nation culture).
I certainly don't remember Aang scolding Kiyoshi for killing the Conqueror. And if Iroh, or somebody else killed Ozai I don't think Aang would mind.

Of course, the show can't come out and say "Hey kids, sometimes taking a life is justified". But that's how I interpreted that final struggle.

[thekazooist]

Marcelinari: Nitpick, the fire nation of Aangs time was meant to be Ancient Chinese, not Japanese, per the creators, as far as there ascetics for buildings and weapons and armor and such went.

Counter nitpick: Are you sure? The fire nation seems to be inspired by both. Geographically it's like Japan/Indonesia. The amor is similar to ancient Chinese armor, but you could also make a case for it resembling the samurai. The hundred years war is definitely a parallel to the Second Sino-Japanese War. Sozin seems to have similar thinking to the Japan line of thought in justifying invasion. The whole thing with the top knots is also related to Japan. The agni kai seems to be similar to south asia. Archeitecture seems to be a mix of Chinese and SE asian. I feel like it's hard to call the fire nation one culture even though people might want to, because there are definitely influences from more than just chinese, japanese, or SE asia, or mayan/aztecs.

[Metahuman1]

I recall reading an interview with the creators where they said that fire nation was anchient chinese, earth kingdom anchient korea, water tribe was inuet, and air nomads were tibetian monks. Will go into more detail later, on my phone atm.

[Marcelinari]

I think I read a little to far into 'industrializing imperial island nation', then. Geographically, the Fire Nation is reminiscent of Japan, and the Earth Kingdom of China. I'm sure cultural inspirations are taken from a variety of sources. The things that stand out to me were 'emphasis on honour', 'cultural appreciation of tea', and 'metal ships in a pre-industrial world'. All of which reminded me more of WW1-era Japan. Stereotypes, probably.

(Also 'invasion and occupation of chinese-analogue country')

[Pokonic]

I think I read a little to far into 'industrializing imperial island nation', then. Geographically, the Fire Nation is reminiscent of Japan, and the Earth Kingdom of China. I'm sure cultural inspirations are taken from a variety of sources. The things that stand out to me were 'emphasis on honour', 'cultural appreciation of tea', and 'metal ships in a pre-industrial world'. All of which reminded me more of WW1-era Japan. Stereotypes, probably.

(Also 'invasion and occupation of chinese-analogue country')

Ba Sing Se is basically Benjing, for the most part, down to the social classes divided by walls, and it's sacking by the island-dwelling honor-focused Fire Nation kind of makes it strange for the Fire Nation being the one to be the one inspired by China. Furthermore, Aang's experience in the Fire Nation school and what got said in there was pretty much what Imperial Japan taught in their schools during the early twentieth century.

[Flickerdart]

Could it be different periods or regions of Chinese history? They are a pretty diverse bunch.

[SuperPanda]

Trying to dissect the "big gulf" between the ATLA "Legend" and the LOK "Origin" Avatar difference. I see a consistent reading here that you see Legend as not established as Aang's actual powers, but other people's understanding of Aang's powers based on myths (always at odds with what Aang actually displays). This is perfectly agreeable to my reading that Origin isn't really different from "Legend" as both series establish a pretty consistent take on what powers the Avatar actually possesses, and there seems to be a wide gulf in what different people expect from the Avatar (I mean in season 1 of LOK there are doubts as to whether the Avatar can even be the top pro-bender). (1)

Katara simply tells us that she believe that Aang will save the world, not that she believes the ancient prophecies or in Aang's chosenness or anything remotely approaching the latter. (2).

Not sure Aang's bursts are meant to be far beyond Mecha-Korra, which is the only place we have a possible "Superman" moment (I recall his greatest moment being at the end of Season 1). I'd have to look in more detail at these displays, though since Raava's powers become greater as Vaatu's powers decline and the two were at a point of being about equal, I surmise there is an in-universe explanation already provided. (3)

All in all everything I see here suggests that the "Origin" story defines the Avatar's power as they always actually were. That the Legend never created the "wide gulf" and the expectations, easily based on actual facts about the Avatar, if somewhat inflated when placed on a 12 year old boy. (4)

Except that Aang sparks and leads people to battle and attacks with potentially lethal force on multiple occasions. We simply never see anyone die or get really injured on camera. This is along the lines of GI Joe, and other extremely violent children shows in a long tradition of such, where miraculously no one ever gets hurt. Avatar differs in that they take the step of actually having Aang discuss killing and deciding that it would just be wrong to kill the guy about to bring about a mass atrocity onto the Earth Kingdom. Meanwhile, Aang goes on to initiate a massive battle as basically cover for his big fight where giant airships get destroyed and his friends all risk their lives while, let us note, all wielding real weapons and deadly force.

So no I don't think the world needs more Generals who are only willing to capture and not kill the enemies whose names he knows while willingly sacrificing thousands upon thousands of nameless soldiers. (5)

(1) It sounds to me that we're almost entirely in agreement on the Origin vs Legend distinction and just picking nits with each other's understanding and reading and assumed degree of separation. I'm fine with that. One point I tried to make clear is that I think the idea of having an in-universe Legend which inflates the people's idea of what the Avatar is was a great move by itself. The only reason I was less than happy with LoK for it was the timing of the move which seemed to be intended to shut off that path of growth for Korra by "reminding her" that it wasn't "really" one of the defining features of the Avatar. I then pointed out a way the writers could use the disparity between Origin and Legend to provide Korra another very agreeable source of growth and development. I remain hopeful on that front.

(2) Katara meets a 12-year old kid who can airbend and turns out to be the Avatar. Said kid is completely irresponsible, not able to bend any element outside Air, not even aware of the task at hand let alone eager to face it, and clueless about his own path.

The opening spiel suggests that Katara has had faith in the Avatar even during the Avatar's absence, and meeting Aang the way she did should have shattered that faith because he was so much more "not" the Avatar than Korra ever has been at that moment. Instead she decides that "Aang can save the world" because he's the Avatar, not because he's Aang. Her faith is even strong enough to uproot her own life and follow her messiah.

Sokka's "well, we're screwed" reactions to learning Aang is suppose to be the chosen savior are alot more reasonable, but Sokka is just about always set up to be the guy who questions faith-based beliefs. He comes to believe in Aang, his friend. Katara believes from the beginning because "he's the Avatar."

As an audience we were introduced to Katara's faith and given every reason to question it before we watched the pieces fall into place to make that destiny happen. Aang's personal and spiritual trouble with violence actually added to it because he was being forced into positions he wouldn't have chosen by the mere fact that he was the Avatar.

Worth noting: Many of us were excited in Season 1 of Korra when it looked like she'd get the same sort of deal by being forced to deal with tricky social situations with the grace, wisdom, and diplomacy she struggles with. Most of the complaints you hear people utter on the forum are more about the wasted potential for drama/comedy/growth when that didn't happen and less about Korra's actual character.

(3) I have to re-watch season 2's finale, but I distinctly remember that Korra didn't have Raava's spirit anymore. That would suggest that anyone could have gone mecha-spirit and that it wasn't actually an Avatar power. Season 1 of Aang's Avatar state was a fusion with the Ocean spirit, so again, not really the Avatar state.

I was going more for Season 1 episode 3 - without thinking or considering nearly blew Sokka and Katara off a mountain with sheer, undirected wind-force. Season 2 episode 1 where he destroys the fortifications of the earth kingdom army with ease. In the finale where his passive avatar state bending of the small amounts of the four elements is stronger than Ozai's comet-pumped firebending. I'd have to re-watch for more. Its established that The Avatar state is so powerful that it frightens the people on his side.

(4) Again we're largely in agreement here. I don't know how accurate many people's knowledge of the Avatar's power could be said to say and that's a point where we disagree. Aang himself was wise and spiritual enough to learn what the Avatar was through the other Avatars, and after finding out what he was suppose to be, chose to be more.

Season 1 of Korra established that her past lives have a hard time getting through to her even when they've already worked out what's going on. Wan was only able to because of the sensory-deprivation and healing. Korra doesn't seem to have internalized that some of the expectations being placed on her are not exactly fair. Once she does she'll have the opportunity to choose A) Do the actual job. B) Live up to the expectations. C) Be better yet.

I'm looking forward to that point.

(5). We are not going to agree.

Point 1: Aang participates in attacks when there is no way to proceed alone and even then only accepts volunteers. Sokka is the general in the Day of Black Sun, he's leading people into battle to give Aang time to face Ozai. Before that point they've been on defensive in every single combat.

Season 1 "big battles" Northern Air temple and North pole. At the Northern Air Temple Aang leads the fight, but to protect a number of bystanders that include children after he made things worse with a temper-tantrum. He could have run and maybe the Mechanist and the others would have been able to work things out.

In the North Pole he was out of most of the fight having been trying to protect Ocean and Moon.

Season 2 - The Return to Omashu, The Chase, The Drill, Cross-roads of Destiny

All of these are small engagements, not big battles. The Drill is the only one he could be said to "be on the offensive" while it was still in the act of defending Ba Sing Se. There the plan is to break the thing before the wall is breached and force the fire-nation to retreat.

Season 3 - Day of black sun / Finale

DoBS is touched on above. It wasn't his battle plan, it wasn't him leading it, and everyone fighting would have been doing so without him. The purpose of the plan was also to try and end the war early and avoid needless loss of life.

In the Finale ... Aang wasn't there for the airship plan. Toph, Sokka and Suki went to do that on their own initiative trusting that Aang would show up to stop Ozai - somehow - because he'd gone missing. This was again a small task-force, not an army, and Aang was definitely not leading it.

So I won't be able to agree with you because I don't see how Aang is a general (he doesn't plan battles or lead armies). I never saw him comfortably complacent with killing nameless mooks, I saw some situations where he was put on the defensive and had his other options removed from her and had no time to think before reacting. I don't remember a single case of him pursuing the death of an opponent with anything resembling intent to kill.

Again,
"Suggesting that even in the most dire of circumstances, out-and-out violence isn't the 'real' answer is an admirable moral to present children."

The forum rules prohibit discussing the validity of that moral in many real world conflicts of the scale AtlA shows. On a more 'normal' scale of conflict, for the intended child viewer, I'd be hard-pressed to think of any example where violence was the correct answer.

But even with all of this: The kicker comes right back to the Legend vs Origin reading.

In Origin - Violence was the answer. Raava's nature is violent, she does eternal battle with Vatuu. Forces of 'darkness' like Ozai need to be killed even at the risk that it turns the soul of 'light' dark eventually to do that because Violence is an endless cycle. That cycle is part of the "balance" the Avatar brings.

In Legend - Wisdom is about learning that there are sometimes other ways and that actions, even necessary actions, have consequences. Aang knew killing Ozai was 'right' but he also knew that it was 'wrong.' It was Right in that it was what needed to be done, and it was the Avatar's duty. It was wrong in that it wouldn't really end the conflict, just delay it a bit more. The violence would eventually turn to more violence and a new Ozai would rise somewhere for him to deal with. Does a non-violent approach prevent this from happening? No it doesn't. Season 1 of Korra explored how even Aang's "third solution" can still propagate the cycle of violence because it was a violent action, just a non-lethal one.

When I said our world could use more people like Aang I was talking about real world conflicts which have been fueled by cycles of violence so long that people don't even remember how they started, and to conflicts where both sides are guilty of enough to warrant the anger on the part of the other. Violence alone can never solve those conflicts, it requires people on both sides who understand that ending the cycle is more important that being vindicated.

Still I can see that we simply won't agree on that point.

On the others we're largely in agreement though with a few nits to pick.

I'm not exactly sure how I'd define a "wide gulf" between Legend and Origin, but the whole point of a "Legend" reading is for it to be inflated through word of mouth.

parts of your post read as though you actually dispute the Legend reading entirely, or consider it a "less correct" reading of ATLA and Korra up until Origin is introduced. That's fine if you do. Part of the point of the terms is that the shows presented us with Legend first and then asked us to adjust our expectations.

The trend I've seen in this thread is that:
1. People who held Aang in esteem mostly have been pretty hard on Korra for her lack of growth and development.

2. People who read Aang as a less that admirable character have held Korra in esteem and don't see what the other guys are complaining about.

3. People who admired the show for challenging Aang's growth physically, morally, and spiritually throughout the three year run have been somewhat disappointed with what Legend of Korra has called spiritual and personal growth.

4. People who were here for mystic kungfu have been very happy with Korra.

5. People who were impressed by how ATLA handled themes like war and genocide have been disappointed with the water-tribe civil war and the non-bender rights plot-lines for seeming to promise the same and then not delivering.

I find myself fitting 1, 3, 4, and 5. I try to temper the negative side of 1 by focusing on the growth she could potentially explore this season. It is hard to do that though with the show having established an expectation that they won't deliver.

[thekazooist]

I think I read a little to far into 'industrializing imperial island nation', then. Geographically, the Fire Nation is reminiscent of Japan, and the Earth Kingdom of China. I'm sure cultural inspirations are taken from a variety of sources. The things that stand out to me were 'emphasis on honour', 'cultural appreciation of tea', and 'metal ships in a pre-industrial world'. All of which reminded me more of WW1-era Japan. Stereotypes, probably.

(Also 'invasion and occupation of chinese-analogue country')

Well many countries have done that with education including china.

[Reddish Mage]

ATLA exists in the realm of PG-13 Bloodless Combat, where concussive force and explosions are purely non-lethal and any attacks that would draw blood are destined to fail.

An interesting thing about the ending of ATLA is that, as I see it anyway, it's not neccessarily saying that Aang's pacifism is the only correct path. The past Avatars, as well as Aangs friends, all of whom are consistently portrayed as moral voices, all call for Ozai to die.

This is my interpretation, but I don't even see Aang as being conflicted about whether killing Ozai would be the Right thing to do. Aang agrees that Ozai must be stopped.
The issue is that Aang's personal beliefs call for pacifism ,or at least not going into something with the intent of killing somebody, even a genocidal madman.

Of course, the show can't come out and say "Hey kids, sometimes taking a life is justified". But that's how I interpreted that final struggle.

This reading sees the writers as struggling to deliver their subversive message underneath the censors. We can all agree a discussion of killing at all is pushing the envelope. Under this reading Aang morality is seen as peculiar. The audience is meant to see Aang's choices as strange and the friends and past lives as making the right choice. Even so, it is not aesthetically pleasing to have the Hero engaged in tortuously disbelief -unsuspending behavior to do so (via the fight that should have gone the Pheonix King's way, easily). In a sense this is more of an excuse for the bad writing then a aesthetic defense of it.

However "pacifism" and vegetarianism are not just lifestyle choices, they are often moral choices to take a higher moral path and this is the simple way to take what happens in that past episode, as Aang taking a better, bloodless way. I think this sort of preaching in PG style tv is problematic from a pedagogic point of view and in blatant contradiction to the very violent acts that we see, but but I don't criticize this trend as bad writing, what I think is bad writing is the premature confrontation (heightened by Aangs angst about his presumed victory).

Does anyone actually like the way the ATLA ended aesthetically?

[MLai]

I'm reluctant to ascribe oversight or laziness to anyone without having met them. I admit that Korra's visions of the past may have been an interesting set of stories, but it's unlikely they would have all been able to relate to the ongoing plot without seeming shoehorned and contrived.

It doesn't fit into the S02 story as is. I was talking about Kitten Champ's idea of an alternate S02 plot structure.

I'm also not sure that Wan's fireturtle culture was an 'antediluvian golden age' - the city on the turtle may have been relatively well-built, but I don't remember it being a particularly impressive city, mostly reminiscent of feudal era Japan, or maybe China.

Such a city, built on a giant turtle, appearing in scale and construction like a city built 10,000 years later... does not denote a golden age?

If you see it immediately as it's done in S02, you might not be particularly impressed because it looks the same as ATLA. But if you see the world become more primitive as Korra hops back lifetimes ala Kitten Champ's plot idea... and then when she reaches Wan's age she sees that. Then it would look mighty impressive, because you're expecting little thatch huts but you see a multi-tiered city on a turtle.

That said, I came up with my explanation without exactly straining my creative impulses - all the information was there, either in LoK or TLA, I just kind of made logical connections from one to the next.

You can't require audiences to take information from the background noise of a previous series and apply it to a current series on their own, not even if it was an adult show. That's a very unrealistic expectation. If you have to cover for a writer by using that, then it just means he's a horrible writer if he had intended that.

Also, if you're not contesting that people from 10,000 years ago would be as evolved as people in LoK, why would you suggest that Wan should be a caveman? He lived on a turtle.

He should be a turtle caveman.

MLai: Right, at this point, I'm just convinced that no matter what is done or by who or for what reason, as long as the show says Legend of Korra on it or even mentions anyone ever mentioned on it even existed, your going to hate it on principle everything else be damned..

I actually like LoK via SuperPanda's reasons #3, 4, 5. I don't particularly like or hate Aang.

I like criticizing LoK because there's just so much to criticize, and flawed shows with high potential but failed promises are great for discussion and to learn from. I can express disappointment, but I don't get mad about the show because (1) I still like watching it for the above reasons, and (2) what do I care it's not like it's my show. It's you who seems to get bitter about its detractors as if you're writing or drawing it. Relax, whether it sucks or it's great has no relevance to your self-worth.

[Marcelinari]

It doesn't fit into the S02 story as is. I was talking about Kitten Champ's idea of an alternate S02 plot structure.

Except that it explains the nature of the antagonist for the season, describes the scale of the threat it poses and that the Avatar must prevent, and shows exactly why it's only the Avatar who can prevent it, as well as providing information of the origin of the Avatar and the origin of elementbending, too? It may not have involved an awful lot of Korra, but it was actually a pretty darned tight fit into the S02 storyline.

a city, built on a giant turtle, appearing in scale and construction like a city built 10,000 years later... does not denote a golden age?

If you see it immediately as it's done in S02, you might not be particularly impressed because it looks the same as ATLA. But if you see the world become more primitive as Korra hops back lifetimes ala Kitten Champ's plot idea... and then when she reaches Wan's age she sees that. Then it would look mighty impressive, because you're expecting little thatch huts but you see a multi-tiered city on a turtle.

The term Golden Age (Greek: Χρυσόν Γένος Chryson Genos) comes from Greek mythology and legend and refers to the first in a sequence of four or five (or more) Ages of Man, in which the Golden Age is first, followed in sequence, by the Silver, Bronze, Heroic, and then the present (Iron), which is a period of decline. By extension "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity. During this age peace and harmony prevailed, humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. (Bold for emphasis)

I expect we're working on a different wavelength - you're taking Golden Age to mean 'advanced, prosperous civilization' and I'm taking it to mean 'everyone is happy and nobody is hungry'. From my interpretation, Wan's age was not terribly fun for anybody, except maybe the Chou brothers. People demonstrably did not get along, were threatened with death and spiritwarping the moment they stepped outside the walls, and were only protected from the ultimate demise of their race by gigantic benevolent spirit-gods.

In your interpretation (and I'm making some assumptions here, bear with me), the architecture and maybe the weapons you see on Fireturtle City imply an advanced, prosperous civilization. That seems fair - there are no mud huts, and metal weapons are a pretty neat thing to have. However, it's abundantly clear in both TLA and LoK that metal weapons are (and have always been) inferior to properly developed Mystic Kung-Fu. Of that, they have none. You're supposed to think 'these people can shoot fire, but they don't know how to bend! A time before bending - how ancient!' And I think this is a valid interpretation - we've been effectively told that Bending was taught in ancient times, by the great beasts and spirits of the elements. A time before the ancient times is more ancient still by far.

As for the architecture, you're right, it's pretty impressive. Being stuck on the turtle though, with no way to expand? I'd take a new village over a 2 story building.

You can't require audiences to take information from the background noise of a previous series and apply it to a current series on their own, not even if it was an adult show. That's a very unrealistic expectation. If you have to cover for a writer by using that, then it just means he's a horrible writer if he had intended that.

It's not required. It's not even recommended. The rise and fall of the various cultures between the modern Nations and Wan's era had nothing to do with the story - to show it in any more detail would have been a waste of animation. But by building a coherent continuity - even if you don't show all of it - you allow the audience to interpolate information. They can figure it out if they want to (as I wanted to), or they can ignore it without detriment to the plot. What screws them up is when they don't ignore it, but don't bother to figure it out. Then they start complaining about horrible writing.

He should be a turtle caveman.

If that lion-turtle has shell-caves, I think it's something he ought to get looked at. Preferably by a licensed Lion-turtle-doctor.

[Reddish Mage]

(1) It sounds to me that we're almost entirely in agreement on the Origin vs Legend distinction and just picking nits with each other's understanding and reading and assumed degree of separation.
(5). We are not going to agree.

Point 1: Aang participates in attacks when there is no way to proceed alone and even then only accepts volunteers. Sokka is the general in the Day of Black Sun, he's leading people into battle to give Aang time to face Ozai. Before that point they've been on defensive in every single combat.

Season 1 "big battles" Northern Air temple and North pole. At the Northern Air Temple Aang leads the fight, but to protect a number of bystanders that include children after he made things worse with a temper-tantrum. He could have run and maybe the Mechanist and the others would have been able to work things out.

In the North Pole he was out of most of the fight having been trying to protect Ocean and Moon.

Season 2 - The Return to Omashu, The Chase, The Drill, Cross-roads of Destiny

All of these are small engagements, not big battles. The Drill is the only one he could be said to "be on the offensive" while it was still in the act of defending Ba Sing Se. There the plan is to break the thing before the wall is breached and force the fire-nation to retreat.

Season 3 - Day of black sun / Finale

DoBS is touched on above. It wasn't his battle plan, it wasn't him leading it, and everyone fighting would have been doing so without him. The purpose of the plan was also to try and end the war early and avoid needless loss of life.

In the Finale ... Aang wasn't there for the airship plan. Toph, Sokka and Suki went to do that on their own initiative trusting that Aang would show up to stop Ozai - somehow - because he'd gone missing. This was again a small task-force, not an army, and Aang was definitely not leading it.

So I won't be able to agree with you because I don't see how Aang is a general (he doesn't plan battles or lead armies).

But even with all of this: The kicker comes right back to the Legend vs Origin reading.

In Origin - Violence was the answer. Raava's nature is violent, she does eternal battle with Vatuu. Forces of 'darkness' like Ozai need to be killed even at the risk that it turns the soul of 'light' dark eventually to do that because Violence is an endless cycle. That cycle is part of the "balance" the Avatar brings.

In Legend - Wisdom is about learning that there are sometimes other ways and that actions, even necessary actions, have consequences. Aang knew killing Ozai was 'right' but he also knew that it was 'wrong.' It was Right in that it was what needed to be done, and it was the Avatar's duty. It was wrong in that it wouldn't really end the conflict, just delay it a bit more. The violence would eventually turn to more violence and a new Ozai would rise somewhere for him to deal with. Does a non-violent approach prevent this from happening? No it doesn't. Season 1 of Korra explored how even Aang's "third solution" can still propagate the cycle of violence because it was a violent action, just a non-lethal one.


I'm not exactly sure how I'd define a "wide gulf" between Legend and Origin, but the whole point of a "Legend" reading is for it to be inflated through word of mouth.

parts of your post read as though you actually dispute the Legend reading entirely, or consider it a "less correct" reading of ATLA and Korra up until Origin is introduced. That's fine if you do. Part of the point of the terms is that the shows presented us with Legend first and then asked us to adjust our expectations.

I'm going to surprise you. I agree with you on your reading of Aang's conflict intervening behavior as very small scale and intentionally non-lethal the entire time. You gave ample evidence he never involved himself with military sort of strategies or intended for a battle to take place. Aang truly intended for no one to ever die. Others in ATLA do otherwise, including the members of Team Avatar and other Avatars, but not Aang. I can still criticize the non violence angle at the end as underscoring the bad taste I get with how unbelievable Aang acts in the climatic battle. You cite this as one of those superman moments, and mention a passive Avatar state, I only viewed the battle as Aang giving it all he had without the Avatar state to access (he didn't go glowy until the end). That's why I view it as simply unbelievable, super-Comet Pheonix King should be superior, overwhelmingly superior, to normal-mode Aang.

Anyway as far as the Legend v Origin reading, we are at nits now. I see the Legend as being more of a reputation. Though I agree the Avatars actions have 10,000 years of history, and some aspect of the spiritual around it, I don't see people worshipping the Avatar or holding him/her in the same sort of reverence the way people hold chief religious figures, saints, and so on in real life. Hence I agree the legend gives the Avatar a role to live up to, but it think the expectations belongs somewhere in between a truly "Legend" reading suggesting The Avatar as messianic/deific figure and expectations based on a humdrum look at the Avatar as a superbender with a very long resume and solid reputation in the world saving department.

Thus any gulfs between the Avatar-as-expected and the Avatar-as-presented are small, not large, but we differ solely on a matter of scale.

Also not sure what this Origin/Legend has to do with violence. It seems to your reading both encourage lethal violence as the answer and the Avatar....um doesn't do it and that's somehow bad/good?

[Metahuman1]

I actually like LoK via SuperPanda's reasons #3, 4, 5. I don't particularly like or hate Aang.

I like criticizing LoK because there's just so much to criticize, and flawed shows with high potential but failed promises are great for discussion and to learn from. I can express disappointment, but I don't get mad about the show because (1) I still like watching it for the above reasons, and (2) what do I care it's not like it's my show. It's you who seems to get bitter about its detractors as if you're writing or drawing it. Relax, whether it sucks or it's great has no relevance to your self-worth.

I honestly have not been getting that impression from you, like at all, but ok.

And no, it doesn't have anything to do with my self worth. What it does do is annoy me that even when the show is noticably improving, it's getting kicked for daring to improve on the things it had been getting kicked for not doing well at prior to this.

As for potential wasted, Your not the only person who's looked at a show and said "You know, it's a freaking shame they didn't just make some changes, cause they could have done so much better!". Is it really so much worse then One Piece, or RWBY, Or Attack On Titan, all series I've seen people on this forum ready to run through a wood chipper for there wasted potential cause too much zany antics/stupid grimdarkness for sake of grimdarkness? Cause I gotta say, I'm not seeing it with Korra, especially NOW that it's finally getting it's act togeather.

[MLai]

Except that it explains the nature of the antagonist for the season, describes the scale of the threat it poses and that the Avatar must prevent, and shows exactly why it's only the Avatar who can prevent it, as well as providing information of the origin of the Avatar and the origin of elementbending, too? It may not have involved an awful lot of Korra, but it was actually a pretty darned tight fit into the S02 storyline.

I don't know what you're getting at, I guess you're saying "But I like S02 as it is so why change it?"
Well I've been describing how I didn't like S02... for the past how many pages? So obviously we're starting from different points. I'll just say read Kitten Champ's idea again, and if you want to refute something direct yourself at that. That way at least ppl can frame a response without restarting from page 1.

I expect we're working on a different wavelength - you're taking Golden Age to mean 'advanced, prosperous civilization' and I'm taking it to mean 'everyone is happy and nobody is hungry'.

Correct. So I don't care if you replace every occurrence of the phrase "Golden Age" with "advanced prosperous civilization".

That seems fair - there are no mud huts, and metal weapons are a pretty neat thing to have. However, it's abundantly clear in both TLA and LoK that metal weapons are (and have always been) inferior to properly developed Mystic Kung-Fu. Of that, they have none.

So what? They still have technology that is only visibly surpassed by the time of ATLA, in large part due to mystic kung fu shortcuts rather than any giant leaps in tech. You can't have that level of tech without magic shortcuts, without the foundation of "advanced prosperous civilization." Nor does "advanced and prosperous" automatically mean "the peasants are all happy."

You're supposed to think 'these people can shoot fire, but they don't know how to bend! A time before bending - how ancient!'

"And yet they have tall pagodas, modern tailoring, and metal weapons!"

As for the architecture, you're right, it's pretty impressive. Being stuck on the turtle though, with no way to expand? I'd take a new village over a 2 story building.

Their architecture is so advanced, it can withstand the turtle getting up and stomping around.

It's not required. It's not even recommended. The rise and fall of the various cultures between the modern Nations and Wan's era had nothing to do with the story - to show it in any more detail would have been a waste of animation.

Refer to my reply to your first quote above.

And no, it doesn't have anything to do with my self worth. What it does do is annoy me that even when the show is noticably improving, it's getting kicked for daring to improve on the things it had been getting kicked for not doing well at prior to this..

It hasn't "improved" yet. It's just "on its way" to possibly improving. But I've been burnt by 2 seasons already with a good few initial episodes getting me all pumped and then massive disappointment: I don't like what they did to Amon, I don't like Thug Sue Korra, and I don't like what they did with Wan arc onwards. So I don't see a need to hold my breath.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't know, I'm pretty happy with the direction they're going this season because they seem to be addressing an issue that's largely been in the background as an important visible aspect of the setting whose implications haven't really been explored. Namely, the cultural delineations between the various Benders have become somewhat arbitrary and are rapidly losing significance in the world. That being Water/Fire/Earth/Air Benders has less and less relevance to their identity as they enter modernity.

We see it in the difficulty they've had in restoring the Airbenders' civilization and their certitude in their cause as if it were a divine mandate that one must exists while the question of whether they should or not lingers around unasked. We see it in the way the traditional rule of the Earth Queen is waning. I don't think she's really any worse than previous rulers just that she exists in an increasingly modernized world which rejects the heavy-handed administrations of a feudal sovereign. Meanwhile, the centre of modern civilization and the most prosperous place - possibly in the world though we haven't seen the Fire Nation really - has become Republic City in its multiculturalism and post-national identity. It's not surprising that people are flooding into Republic City to seek their fortune after seeing Ba Sing Se, or that living like an ascetic simply because you've acquired bending is scoffed at.

This is interesting for a variety of reason, but particularly for the Avatar. Namely, she's facing an evolution of the concept of what it means to maintain balance in the world and doesn't seem to realize it. In Aang's day it meant respecting the borders of one another, the Fire Nation were implicitly the ones to violate the balance by instigating the invasion and colonization of its neighbours, but in Korra's? Well, that's the question. Does she inspire change? Or does she moderate or actually prevent those seeking change? Perhaps that's exactly what the end of her past-lives signify, a new type of Avatar and the ultimate symbol of unity and post-national identity who isn't predicated on championing traditional paradigms.

[Ashen Lilies]

Spoiler: Episode 5

Show

Zaofu looks like it could be Republic City's chief rival for prosperity and technological superiority, especially now that they've got Varric heading up the technology sector.

[MLai]

I better get home and watch eps 5. Is it a special 1-hr (eps 5-6), or is it just 30 mins?

I don't know, I'm pretty happy with the direction they're going this season because they seem to be addressing an issue that's largely been in the background...

Heh, same thing I told Metahuman....

S01: "OMG! Sociopolitical tumult in steampunk setting, in Avatar universe! This gun be so cooool~!!" to "Man, disappointment... but maybe S02 will be better because they know they have more than 1 season..."
S02: "Man, more disappointment... And wow, what are they doing with the setting mythos... man, that was clumsy..."
S03: *Kitten and Panda talk about possible directions that could possibly make the show good, based on viewing the 1st 3 eps.* "Welp, fool me 3 times shame on... I'll believe it when I see it."

[Ashen Lilies]

Episode 4-5 are what just aired. Episode 4 is called "In Harm's Way" and Episode 5 is called "The Metal Clan"

I for one thought the animation and choreography for these two was especially stunning.

[SuperPanda]

Just watched epsidoe 4 (can't watch 5 till later as GF came over and she's not through AtLA yet).

Episode 4 played to all the strengths the show has. Tenzin's mostly serious / occasionally goofy personality delivered a few laugh out loud moments for me. Bumi has been actually funny while not being incompetent. The bending scenes were top notch over all. I can understand how the Earth-citizen Air-fu is going to be very different from Aang and Tenzin's styles and like that attention to detail.

Overall season 3 seems to have found what the show is going to be and embraced it. I'm less hesitant about being hopeful.

[Morty]

I continue to be pleasantly surprised. Could it be the writers finally got their act together? I really didn't enjoy the romance plots between side characters, and I kind of facepalmed when they brought back Jinora's Deus Ex Machina power from the finale, but it was bearable. I just hope they don't saddle Korra with another teeth-grinding romance sub-plot. The rest of the plot seems reasonably tight and the fight sequences are back to their old quality. I'm not sure if I like the... old-timey sci-fi aesthetic of the metal city, but I suppose it's an interesting direction to take metalbending in. The villains are certainly threatening, too. But then, so was Amon at first, and look where that got him. The first season also had great promise that came crashing down, so I restrain my optimism. I definitely look forward to seeing the story behind the four villains. Especially since it seems that their leader was a non-bender before, and yet he was considered threatening, which is unusual in this show.

[lord_khaine]

I for one thought the animation and choreography for these two was especially stunning.

Oh yeah, the quality of those were on line with the very best of what TLA had to offer, so far this season has done nothing but impress me again and again.

Spoiler

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And now i am really intrigued to see if the new city is really as perfect as it appears on the surface, or if it to has a dark underside.

Also, am the only one amuzed by how the majority of the main cast has turned out to be horrible parents?
So far neither Aang, Kataraa or Torp has done to well of a job, and i find it kinda amusing if it turns out Zuko were the only one to do that part properly

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episodes 4 and 5

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hm. nope, I'm not detecting any dark side vibes from this new city. the defenses seem more like a chekovs gun and something to make it unique, Toph's other daughter seems nice, if a bit naive and trusting about people like Varrick.

no, if there is something wrong about this, we've already seen it: Varrick himself. he didn't prove himself trustworthy in the second season. if anything bad is going to happen, it'll come from him, but that is what writers would want us to expect, so that something out of left field will come instead. the...Zahir Four will most likely attack it. the defenses will be activated....then what?

....my thoughts just keep coming back to Varrick. he is the one most likely to betray everyone to the Earth Queen here, so that he can get the money to fund his new monorail idea. he doesn't have a company to build this stuff for him after all. Republic City won't fund him, he is wanted there...and while I'm not sure about the North and South Poles but I'm pretty sure they would hear of Varrick's deceiving ways and y'know...try to capture him.

as for Jinoras power: it doesn't seem to be all that different from what Aang did in ATLA.....I don't see how its out of nowhere, she just seems to an airbending prodigy who figured out the same or similar thing the previous Avatar did. it got bigger at harmonic convergence, which is a really important spiritual event. makes sense to me. its all consistent.

also the Earth Queen is shaping up to be one of those petty pathetic villains rather than one of those competent threatening ones. nice change of pace. the real threat is Zahir after all.

[Ashen Lilies]

Spoiler

Show

Zaofu so far looks like some sort of Roddenberryesque utopia, a society where everyone works towards self improvement and the betterment of humanity, rather than for simple material gain. The concept has been deconstructed enough, even in offshoots of the very show that Roddenberry created, for me to be suspicious of it being played straight here. Also, some of the comments Suyin made, especially her insistence that her Opal stay for training instead of leave, and her complaints about the Earth Queen ("Oh please. Move aside!") and the old traditional order make her seem somewhat creepy under her cheery exterior. Also the "truthseer" and Suyin's sudden 360 shift in personality when she's interrogating Korra about lying. Definitely a Stepford Smiler. At the very least, the giant metal lotus shields seem like an excessive security measure to take for such a peaceful seeming people, though that may just be the shared heritage with Lin speaking.

[cobaltstarfire]

So we're five in and it's turning out to be ok still, I'm pretty happy, intrigued, and am actually enjoying the show quite a bit. It's nice to not have that weird nagging feeling that something is really really off about everything.

I wish I didn't feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, but I don't think it's possible for that feeling to be dispelled after the last season.

[Kobold-Bard]

Oh yeah, the quality of those were on line with the very best of what TLA had to offer, so far this season has done nothing but impress me again and again.

Spoiler

Show

And now i am really intrigued to see if the new city is really as perfect as it appears on the surface, or if it to has a dark underside.

Also, am the only one amuzed by how the majority of the main cast has turned out to be horrible parents?
So far neither Aang, Kataraa or Torp has done to well of a job, and i find it kinda amusing if it turns out Zuko were the only one to do that part properly

Spoiler

Show

I forget which one, but one of the principal writers has real issues with parents, so most parents in the show do end up being either complete *******s or just inherently terrible at the job of raising children.

[AdmiralCheez]

Spoiler

Show

Also, am the only one amuzed by how the majority of the main cast has turned out to be horrible parents?
So far neither Aang, Kataraa or Torp has done to well of a job, and i find it kinda amusing if it turns out Zuko were the only one to do that part properly

Spoiler: Parents

Show

Well, let's see: Aang was a monk and had no traditional parents to speak of, Katara and Sokka lost their mother while their father was off at war, and Toph was super-sheltered and ran away from home. So, not a whole lot of good examples being set for them. It's not that they're bad parents, it's that none of them experienced a traditional upbringing, so they don't know how to do it right. Zuko, while being scarred and banished by his father, did have a loving mother until she was banished, and his Uncle filled the father figure role well enough that he might turn out as an okay father.

Hmm... I'm noticing quite the pattern here.

[Kd7sov]

Spoiler: Parents

Show

Well, let's see: Aang was a monk and had no traditional parents to speak of, Katara and Sokka lost their mother while their father was off at war, and Toph was super-sheltered and ran away from home. So, not a whole lot of good examples being set for them. It's not that they're bad parents, it's that none of them experienced a traditional upbringing, so they don't know how to do it right. Zuko, while being scarred and banished by his father, did have a loving mother until she was banished, and his Uncle filled the father figure role well enough that he might turn out as an okay father.

Hmm... I'm noticing quite the pattern here.

Spoiler: Minor parents correction

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Actually, Hakoda was still around when Kya I died.

Spoiler: Some thoughts on 4-5

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Whoof, Zaheer (whom I keep wanting to cal Zahel, can someone fix the valve on my cosmere brain?) and his group certainly seem to have first-series-scale bending. I wonder whether that'll be relevant down the road.

Kind of annoyed they mentioned Morse code. Were it up to me, I'd either pick a benderverse-appropriate name for the local developer or call it rhythm code or something similar.

I am pleased at the implication that Toph may not be dead.

Also I quite like Opal. In particular, even though she appears not to have inherited the Bei Fong need to be in charge, she seems to be quite capable of saying "you're making me uncomfortable" and walking away. Also her eyes seem unusually yellow; does she have some fire nation in her ancestry? I wonder whether a little fire blood would make metal easier to bend...