Legend of Korra Book 3: Bending over Backwards

[Flickerdart]

Why?

Because that's when they're established as powerful threats, which is what drives the entire plot? If those chi blockers were as weak as what we see at the end, Korra would have smashed them all up in moments and there wouldn't have been much of season 1.

[Reddish Mage]

I liked the first three episodes. Improved over last season.

Why in the world did whatever poster it was claim that the Earth Queen incident was another "Korra fooled by obvious villain" moment? (This poster was saying this before the episode was released as well). It bears no similarity to Tarrlock or Unalaq at all.

Also, I like that Korra is actually acting like a reasonably intelligent individual and she is obviously trying to be more level-headed. Season1!Korra and Season2!Korra would have physically attacked the Earth Queen in that "there are no air benders in Ba Sing Se" scene and threatened her. You can tell that's still what Korra WANTS to do, but that she realizes that it would end very badly and not be productive.

When has Korra attacked authority figures that have not revealed themselves to be a threat to her, her friends, or the world, in season 1 and 2? Korra, in doing the Earth Queen's bidding and then threatening the Queen as she stomping out, appears to still be extremely politically naïve and not possessing of the least bit of diplomatic sense. This looks to be the Korra I remember from season's 1 and 2.

[lord_khaine]

When has Korra attacked authority figures that have not revealed themselves to be a threat to her, her friends, or the world, in season 1 and 2? Korra, in doing the Earth Queen's bidding and then threatening the Queen as she stomping out, appears to still be extremely politically naïve and not possessing of the least bit of diplomatic sense. This looks to be the Korra I remember from season's 1 and 2.

I disagree, Korra, in running petty errants for the Earth Queen that the Dai Le could have handled on their own certainly showed diplomacy.
But when the earth queen then directly lied to her face, and generally proved not to be worthy of respect, then i can understand Korra stomped out afterwards.

[MLai]

Korra may be reining in her emotions a tad more now, but she's no Ender Wiggins or Paul Atreides by a long shot.
For once I'd like to see an American cartoon teenage hero show a little more political and interpersonal savvy. Or better yet, a LOT more.
Anime has them first, as usual.

[Infernally Clay]

She's the Avatar, not some politician. If anything, this whole show is a testament to how disrespectful the world has become towards the spirits. Even as early as seventy years ago, people still deeply respected the spirits. People were more open back then to live in harmony with the spirit world, but now it's just an inconvenience. It used to be that the Avatar was almost deific, someone of great importance that people went to for guidance and advice. Now she's being treated like an errand girl? It used to be that the Avatar showing up was a great honour, but now nobody even cares. Even to Republic City, she's just a more powerful Bender who everyone can moan at when things go wrong.

It's like the world has forgotten how important the Avatar is, which is dumb. Even the Earth Queen cares more about the lands Aang took from her than the fact he ended a freakin' century long war in about a year. The human world has become incredibly selfish, so I have no problem with Korra being bullheaded.

[Dragonus45]

Just want to toss a note in, the spirits really don't deserve respect. They have been shown to treat humanity like second class citizens who should bot to them and let them do whatever they want and then thank them for it.

[smuchmuch]

It used to be that the Avatar showing up was a great honour

Oh yeah, it was alway a warm welcome. I heard they even wanted him to stay for fried food.

Even the Earth Queen cares more about the lands Aang took from her than the fact he ended a freakin' century long war in about a year.

And the show goes to such length to show how fair and selfish a person she is too.

Even to Republic City, she's just a more powerful Bender who everyone can moan at when things go wrong.

That may have something to do with the fact she has some share of responsability for the thing they are complaining about ?

It's like the world has forgotten how important the Avatar is, which is dumb.

(... Actualy, when all said and done, is it ?
It's not in the tone of the series so the question won't be asked in the show, but one can still wonder, as the world of Avatar is changing and modernizing, heck even the current chapter is called 'change' after all, why should the avatar itself remain a constant ? Could (Should ?) the world learn to deal with it's problem without an avatar ?)

[Morty]

Just want to toss a note in, the spirits really don't deserve respect. They have been shown to treat humanity like second class citizens who should bot to them and let them do whatever they want and then thank them for it.

That is definitely true. Shame the show glosses over it.

[BRC]

If you think about it, maybe not.

The Avatar is supposed to be a force for peace and stability by being the biggest badass around, who considers it their duty to keep things like rampaging warlords in check.

However, as the world becomes industrialized, nation-states become more stable, international relations become more formal, and armies become more powerful, the problems that could be solved by an Avatar are dwindling. The days when the Avatar could just smack down a troublesome ruler or warlord are over.
Sure, you have Ozai, who was a genocidal maniac, but even then Aang was only able to stop the war because Zuko was ready to take the throne and call for peace. Had Zuko not been around, Azula would take over and continue the war. Had he taken out Azula, another fire-nation general, raised with the same imperialistic mindset, would take over and the war would continue until the Avatar fell, or had battered the Fire Nation army enough that it could not proceed.

If the Earth Queen decided to try to retake the United Republic, what could Korra really do to stop her. Avatar Kiyoshi was able to kill Chin the Conqueror and stop his conquests, but he was just a warlord. She kicked his ass, and the problem more or less went away.

However, if you've got armies hundreds of thousands strong, waging wars where both sides fully believe themselves to be in the right, sure the Avatar can tip the scales one way or another, but they can't really "Keep Balance" the way they used to. All they are is an especially big gun, and there is no guarantee they have the judgement to use it right.

[Metahuman1]

And all those warlords and armies and nations are gonna be hard pressed to deal with the spirit world though, if they can even manage it. I grant that Korra is still getting the hang of doing such, but given that the spirits seem to be kinda jerks on the whole, That's the sort of thing you really need someone with the powers above and beyond normal bending to handle.

And Given the whole Nigh-invincible Spirit mecha form thing she was rocking last season's finally, if she can still tap that power as part of being the avatar now (she might not be able too but hey, wouldn't be the first perminant upgrade and given the aformentioned point of the sheer power of the spirits and the growing power of nation states and there armies and the potential warlords that rule them, the avatar getting new/more power(s) would make perfect sense.) I'd say she can still be a pretty significant deciding factor.

The Avatar can't solo everything, what with still being human, but it can go a long way toward stabilizing things.



Also, with little/no activity from the Avatar for the last 16-17 years after Aang's death and while Korra was growing up and getting trained, we've seen 1 psudo-genocidal super terrorist get positioned to come close to wiping out bending, 1 would be tyrant come an inch from destroying the world as everyone knows and it imposing 10,000 years of darkness on the universe in which humans had little to no chance of surviving and now, and the earth queen and Dai-Li building what I'm quite certain is under the universes international Law and illegal army (and certainly against all in universe morals and ethics we've seen.) with the intention of quasi-mimicking the Pre-Fire-Lord-Zuko-Fire-Lord agenda of conquest with a bending force like literally none ever seen before.

Incidentally, Even though the Avatar was not the most effective at dealing with the first, neither was ANYONE else in the world, literally, in, the, world, and Korra did manage to be the one that dealt with it, and likely would not have been able to do so if she was just another bender. And in the case of the second one, the world had a massive opportunity to deal with her Uncle before she did it, and refused to act until AFTER it was to late for ANYONE EXCEPT THE AVATAR to have a prayer at stopping him! So the worlds track record for taking care of itself with out the Avatar as an important and respected figure is crap. It's like a yellow belt who can't even keep his eyes on his opponent effectively wanting to go be a professional competition fighter. The yellow belt has a LOT of improving to do before there even close to being capable of being considered permission to attempt such a thing.




Also, Korra was more tactful. She knew something was not right the instant she met the woman and in spite of steadily growing disdane and dislike for the woman and her demands, she obliged her, but kept paying and attention and piece together more and more that things were amiss, until the Queen out right lied to her face in an attempt to cheat her way out of there deal, and Korra did not threaten her, she merely made it clear she knew she was being lied to and the matter was by no means closed yet. Tell me, what else should she have done? Meekly left the city and it's new Airbenders to there fates? Being Diplomatic and being a total push over cause someone else tells you something and has a title are not one and the same.

[Reddish Mage]

I have to admit there is something to saying Korra may have previously simply demanded her way because she's the Avatar and refused to do the Queen's "chore." I'm not sure how much growth it took.

I'm not sure how or whether a discussion of the Avatar's supposedly diminishing role came out of this, but given that Korra has just opened wide the bridge between human and spirit world and now spirits are invading...I don't see how Korra is affecting things less than Aang or Kyoshi in either a spiritual or political sense (indeed she has altered the makeup of world more than any Avatar since Wan), technology has shown signs of making the Avatar less relevant and apparently the Avatar, as a roving spiritual figure with superhero-sized powers and a tendency to get involved in politics, has always been a controversial figure.

[Reddish Mage]

Also, Korra was more tactful. She knew something was not right the instant she met the woman and in spite of steadily growing disdane and dislike for the woman and her demands, she obliged her, but kept paying and attention and piece together more and more that things were amiss, until the Queen out right lied to her face in an attempt to cheat her way out of there deal, and Korra did not threaten her, she merely made it clear she knew she was being lied to and the matter was by no means closed yet. Tell me, what else should she have done? Meekly left the city and it's new Airbenders to there fates? Being Diplomatic and being a total push over cause someone else tells you something and has a title are not one and the same.

A diplomatic person could have been tactful in simply informing her majesty of their intention to stay in the city, rather than provoke the Queen's wrath and make it obvious she is doing so to spite the ruler. Korra is starting confrontations with political factions right and left this seasons: the president, the spirits, the Queen, the biker gang.

Btw your other analysis about how Korra kicks ass and is a force to be reckoned with is completely on point. What's more the story had not suggested anything of the sort of the Avatar being considered more or less relevant, though in season 1 we got the feeling the Avatar was not as powerful as a certain group of non-benders.

Bending appears to be a significant factor in people's lives based on the feeling non-benders felt like second class citizens (not a feeling especially well substantiated or even explored btw).

[smuchmuch]

And in the case of the second one, the world had a massive opportunity to deal with her Uncle before she did it, and refused to act until AFTER it was to late for ANYONE EXCEPT THE AVATAR to have a prayer at stopping him!

Which was perfectly justified considering he was the leader of the watter tribe, so it made it all water tribe buisness. it's called non interference. it's not like anyone knew about Vaatu (Hell even korra didn't before she got that flashback.)

And it's worth mentioning that her uncle only got that powerfull because he merged with a freed Vatuu, something that only happened because both spirit portals were opened during harmonic convergence. The two portals that only the avatar could (and did) open for him.

And all those warlords and armies and nations are gonna be hard pressed to deal with the spirit world though, if they can even manage it.

And the avatar is not exactly faring a lot better if the first episode of this season is any indication.

(Okay I'm being pretty unfair to korra here, I'll admit.)

[MLai]

Korra isn't really the Avatar anymore, considering how she lost the entire line of Avatars. Now she's just an especially gifted Bender.
She no longer has any moral authority or some supernatural access to holy wisdom. If I was someone in power who she's trying to impose upon, I'd raise that fact in a heartbeat. As a ruler, I have no intention of listening to a friggin' teenager.

[BWR]

Korra isn't really the Avatar anymore, considering how she lost the entire line of Avatars. Now she's just an especially gifted Bender.
She no longer has any moral authority or some supernatural access to holy wisdom. If I was someone in power who she's trying to impose upon, I'd raise that fact in a heartbeat. As a ruler, I have no intention of listening to a friggin' teenager.

Korra is very definitely the avatar. The defining aspect of the avatar wasn't the connection to previous lives, otherwise Wan wouldn't have been an avatar. The avatar is the avatar because of the meld with that light spirit, a composite being both human and spirit. Her moral authority is exactly the same as any other avatar's, based on her actions not any innate quality. Holy wisdom...we've seen previous avatars failing there, so I guess they weren't really avatars either.
What Korra is is a headstrong girl who genuinely does try to make things better. She may be impulsive and short-sighted but we can blame the White Lotus for some of this. They seemed to focus on training her bending abilities and left her pretty much ignorant of the rest of the world, the realities of politics and cultural differences or how to use her power and status correctly. And from what we've seen of Change it seems as though she's learning.

[Metahuman1]

Reddish Mage: Counter point, if she'd informed the queen she was gonna stay anyway, the queen who as near as I can tell doesn't particularly want her around to begin with would have done one of two things. 1) she would have started hitting her up for more errand's and kept her busy doing her dirty work that way, or 2) she would have had the Dai Li on her every move interfering and sabotaging her. I fail to see where inviting either outcome is desirable.

smuchmuch: And yet that would have not mattered after he jump started ten thousand years of darkness and wiped out republic city and possibly all of humanity. Cause they'd have been wiped out and/or dealing with an insurmountable 10,000 years of darkness before they'd even get a chance to get rid of it. I.E., they would have failed, miserably, utterly and catastrophically to a level so immense it defey's imagination. Extenuating circumstances would hardly have been a comfort, and given the fact that extreme extenuating circumstances seem to pop up a fair bit in this universe, if anything it's merely MORE justification to Have the Avatar be a force that doesn't ALWAYS have to adhere of EVERY law of man to keep you people form wiping one another out. Incidentally, given that fact that she DID save the universe at great personal cost, a great personal cost I might add she could have avoided having to pay if the world HAD gotten involved at the get go in a fashion that suggests they WERE getting to a point were the Avatar wasn't as important as it was in ages past, there being extremely ungrateful.

As for not fairing better with the spirits, we know The Avatar can make this end of it work. Korra's having a lot of Curve Balls against it but being the Avatar makes her uniquely suited to adapting too find a solution for the problem. Again, she had 2 weeks to work on it. That's not THAT much time to solve every problem in the entire world related to this. And if Korra's doing poorly, then the United Republic is preforming as an absolute joke. By-the-by, I'd be unsurprised if it only get's worse in Korra's absence for the president now that he doesn't have her to try and pin blame on and go out of his way to try and make a fool of in public just so he can divert negative press to her instead of him. Again, he had a chance to interfere with the occupation and stop her uncle, which would have kept her form putting him in this spot, he blew it. Hind-sight is 20-20 and a bitch, but there it is. He helped make the bed, time for him to sleep in it.



MLai: Yes, she is. Bends all 4 elements, has a now more limited spirit bending ability that will probably improve over time, Still has Rava's wisdom and raw power even though she doesn't have the Past Avatars Wisdom, Has Energy Bending, may or may not have a technique that turns her into a super spirit mecha, and has saved the worlds Bending population form mystical lobotomy form fantasy Hitler AND saved the entire universe form 10,000 years of Darkness and the entire human race form all but certain mass genocide, and done both in less then a year and the latter with out the past avatars wisdom. She's the Avatar, and not listening to her in light of those accomplishments and ability's would require you to have a rather unsavory agenda she'd interfere with if she knew about it, or be dangerously incompetent to rule.

And Aang, Kiyoshi, Korrick, Roku and Wan all made grave mistakes in there lives. Why do they get a pass but Korra doesn't.

Also, At Very worst, the first Avatar came to be around the time of the Harmonic convergence, and Korra is just a refreshing of the cycle, were the slate was cleaned, and as time moves forward and new avatars come and go, they will pick up more and more past life wisdom. It makes a certain poetic kind of sense that every 10,000 years when the event heavily tied into your creation comes around that the universe would clean the slate.

[John Cribati]

I can't help but feel a little sorry for the universe where Korra is the clean slate for the Reincarnating Savior of the Planet.

[MLai]

MLai: Yes, she is. Bends all 4 elements, has a now more limited spirit bending ability that will probably improve over time, Still has Rava's wisdom and raw power even though she doesn't have the Past Avatars Wisdom, Has Energy Bending, may or may not have a technique that turns her into a super spirit mecha, and has saved the worlds Bending population form mystical lobotomy form fantasy Hitler AND saved the entire universe form 10,000 years of Darkness and the entire human race form all but certain mass genocide, and done both in less then a year and the latter with out the past avatars wisdom. She's the Avatar, and not listening to her in light of those accomplishments and ability's would require you to have a rather unsavory agenda she'd interfere with if she knew about it, or be dangerously incompetent to rule.
And Aang, Kiyoshi, Korrick, Roku and Wan all made grave mistakes in there lives. Why do they get a pass but Korra doesn't..

(1) Super-bending makes you strong, doesn't make you wise or right.
(2) She can't communicate with Rava directly. Correction, she can't at all. Otherwise all her past 1000 lives would all have extensive experience with Rava. The direct communication only happened during the Convergence.
(3) Similarly she won't be able to turn into spirit mecha again.
(4) Past heroic accomplishment via super-bending combat, still doesn't make her wise or right. This is why successful generals don't automatically become presidents.
(5) Because the other Avatars have supernatural wisdom. Yes that means they can still make mistakes as mortals, but that doesn't negate the supernatural wisdom.
(6) As for Wan, he was alive during an Age of Mythology, where humanity probably numbered under a million. He can run well on heroics rather than political/ social wisdom.

[AdmiralCheez]

I can't help but feel a little sorry for the universe where Korra is the clean slate for the Reincarnating Savior of the Planet.

Well, Wan started out as a thief, so there's still hope for Korra.

[Lord Raziere]

Korra is still the Avatar, I mean sure you can learn from past lives, but thats just having 1000 people in your head saying what happened when they did this thing, and we only got say, oh, I dunno, about 4 or 5 people actually talk to the current Avatar at one time? I mean, it doesn't seem like any of the Avatars were actually drawing upon their wisdom frequently and speaking with the wisdom of the ages all the time.

I mean, look at Aang. he had the wisdom of the ancients talking to him, heck with his strong spiritual connection he probably had access to that wisdom more than most Avatars ever do. he still went crazy over the prospect over having to kill a man, even thought that is what all his Avatar past lives advised him to do, he still had his moments of mistakes and failures, still had his doubts and uncertainty, where was his Avatar wisdom when he was playing with firebending and accidentally burned Katara? wouldn't Roku know better, and therefore shouldn't he have gotten wisdom from Roku about not playing with firebending?

I say: No. there are some things the current Avatar has to learn themselves, the Avatar isn't a repository of wisdom you can just look into and solve all your problems. even Aang didn't consult his past lives on everything, he just acted, did things, and screwed up too. the past lives are there not to be a constant source of information but something to fall back on when the Avatar's judges it to be necessary. a vast majority of their advice probably wouldn't be helpful anyways, since society is so different than most of the 10,000 years they experienced. advice with how to deal with feudal lords and whatnot is different from advice on how to deal with modern politicians and CEO's, due to cultural, legal, social differences and so on...

Korra would be building a lot of her wisdom from scratch anyways, and not just because of that, but because her spiritual connection is comparatively weak, she wouldn't be able to contact the past Avatars much anyways. sure, she could've built on it and gotten better, but at this point its no real loss for her, and presumably she will be there to guide whatever person comes after her when she dies. sure its a loss, but it can be recovered from. and MLai, don't act as if 10,000 years of wisdom wouldn't be useful to Wan for say, negotiating peace between the humans and the spirits so that they can live together in a more harmonious way right at the beginning of all this. "age of heroes" doesn't justify not potentially doing better.

but my point is, Korra is still the Avatar. did she stop being the Avatar when she lost all her bending? is she no longer the Avatar now just because she lost the ability to communicate with some dead people, who might just be spirits now and thus somewhere out in the world doing their wise advisor thing, since y'know, the two worlds merged? that and she said it herself when she was talking to the basement nerd airbender: she has a responsibility to do. she might do things a little forcefully, but she still feels responsible about doing her job as the Avatar. no matter how much you think she isn't the Avatar, MLai, she is still going to do her job and that is more admirable than having 1000 people talk in your head about solving things in my eyes. she knows that things are weird right now, that she has lost a big source of info and whatnot, but she is going to try and fix whatever she can anyways, and to me thats what the Avatar is more about than anything else: having a responsibility to try and do your best to keep balance in the world, no matter how hard things get.

[MLai]

Well except for being successful at stopping the Big Evil Spirit thing (which he released in the first place), Wan was otherwise a failure as a bringer of balance and stability wasn't he? He died trying unsuccessfully to stop a big war, and I got the impression that was also the story of his life.

[Ramza00]

I can't help but feel a little sorry for the universe where Korra is the clean slate for the Reincarnating Savior of the Planet.

Well she does not have to do it alone, she is not the only one who wants peace to work.

And the next avatar will be fine how much knowledge and wisdom does 500 lives bring over 1 large one. You will be surprised how much one individual does.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, Aang never really got much help from avatars before Roku, and even Roku wasn't all that useful.

[MLai]

Korra is still the Avatar, I mean sure you can learn from past lives, but thats just having 1000 people in your head saying what happened when they did this thing, and we only got say, oh, I dunno, about 4 or 5 people actually talk to the

This is poor writing rather than incompetence of Avatars historically.
Being able to communicate telepathically to your past lives over the past 10,000 years. Think about that for a moment. If someone can do that IRL, he'd be a messiah (assuming he wants to be a force for good).

Also, this sort of communication shouldn't be equated to normal conversation. It's also poor writing on the part of the show to depict it as purely that. It should be accessing past memories and past feelings. It should be almost equivalent to a lifetime of 10,000 years, rather than 500 people all blabbering incoherently at you in an auditorium. This is an enormous wellspring of human wisdom.

I mean, look at Aang. he had the wisdom of the ancients talking to him, heck with his strong spiritual connection he probably had access to that wisdom more than most Avatars ever do.

Aang was interrupted in his education and having to muck about on his own. He is naturally spiritual, but I would not hold his spiritual training to some high standard. For example, he was only ever able to talk to one past life at a time, at a slow conversational pace, and only accessed the nearest lifetimes. That seems to me like the mark of an amateur, i.e. untrained child Avatar.

he still had his moments of mistakes and failures, still had his doubts and uncertainty, where was his Avatar wisdom when he was playing with firebending and accidentally burned Katara? wouldn't Roku know better, and therefore shouldn't he have gotten wisdom from Roku about not playing with firebending?

(1) Untrained child Avatar.
(2) Untrained child Avatar.
(3) Wisdom means wise choices after deliberating, not that you can't have a clumsy accident while training as a kid.

a vast majority of their advice probably wouldn't be helpful anyways, since society is so different than most of the 10,000 years they experienced. advice with how to deal with feudal lords and whatnot is different from advice on how to deal with modern politicians and CEO's, due to cultural, legal, social differences

Wisdom is not technical skills or knowledge. You don't access past lives as a poli-sci or law textbook. No matter how much the world changes, in the eyes of old ppl, in the end history and ppl still go around in cycles and they've seen it all before. Go ask an old person who's in the mood to lecture. Now imagine a 10,000 y/o old person.

MLai, don't act as if 10,000 years of wisdom wouldn't be useful to Wan for say, negotiating peace between the humans and the spirits so that they can live together in a more harmonious way right at the beginning of all this. "age of heroes" doesn't justify not potentially doing better.

Isn't that making my point?

MLai, she is still going to do her job and that is more admirable than having 1000 people talk in your head about solving things in my eyes. she knows that things are weird right now, that she has lost a big source of info and whatnot, but she is going to try and fix whatever she can anyways, and to me thats what the Avatar is more about than anything else: having a responsibility to try and do your best to keep balance in the world, no matter how hard things get.

That's nice and all. She can still decide to be a hero so that she can use her super-bending for the good of the world. But if I was a king and she comes over to demand policy changes from me, I would say: "Come back and speak to me when you're an adult and a person of some sociopolitical presence."

At this point she's a kid who is super-strong. Good for heroism, unsubstantiated for wise mediator/ moral authority role.

[Scowling Dragon]

Id say OK for heroism. Id say good for adventuring. Being a hero requires better stuff or a universe that revolves around you. Which in Korras case it does because of sloppy writing.

I agree. Though Aang managed to sort allot of stuff on his own, it just means HIS wisdom was added to the collective to aid future avatars.

She is just a good fighter. Thats all. And her wisdom and perception sucks.

The past has wisdoms for all, and at the very least has new points of view and perspective.

But Korra doesn't need perspective or new points of view or wisdom. She is perfect. Because the writers say so and shut up.

[Lord Raziere]

communicating only when they meditate, MLai, all successful communication with past Avatars have been through meditation. and just because a lot of people think on the same problem doesn't mean they get a good solution, you can just get groupthink or whatever. that and their wisdom is only wise for their time. what is a wise course of action in one situation, is not in another, this applies across time periods and culture. even Korra did have that repository of knowledge and such, it would be no real guarantee of helping in every situation, no guarantee that it would come up with perfect solutions, and that is all assuming good access, Korra doesn't have that.

what, should the Avatar meditate before making any important decision? when often time is at a premium, and Aang could only do it so fast because of his very strong spiritual connection- equal to Korra's prodigious ability of bending three elements well since childhood. Aang is not a baseline Avatar either, because there is no such thing as a baseline Avatar, each one is unique. each one deals with problems their own way, for good for ill. your acting as if the Avatar is a consistent job, when all signs point to that it isn't, that somehow all the Avatars inside the current ones head somehow know better than everyone else what to do about things.

guess what, they aren't! Roku wasn't much of a help when he advised things, heck, all the help Aang gave Korra was allowing her to bend again to my knowledge. he certainly didn't give her a better connection to the spirits or anything, and if anyone would give Korra a better connection to the spirits it would be Aang himself, which means that the Avatar really does have to solve things themselves most of the time. they have to figure things out most of the time anyways, since all the past Avatars can only tell them what they did when they faced a situation similar to their own, which isn't all special since the current Avatar can just, y'know, look up things about the previous Avatar in history, I don't see why they wouldn't compile tales of their deeds seeing as how they're the most powerful bender in the world and charged with keeping balance init, or get advice from people around them about the current political/economic climate and so on and so forth, which I think would be a better source of information than a bunch of old ghosts that have no idea about the current day.

the whole "speak to all my past lives" thing really does is provide a more direct way to learn from history before your doomed to repeat it, which can be replaced with y'know. actually learning history yourself and figuring out your problems based on what worked and what didn't work, stuff like that. really, the past lives thing is more like a student going to visit their old master than any constant connection that actually can help them all the time, and even wise old masters don't know everything they're just very experienced, sure its an advantage MLai, but the lack of past lives thing doesn't make her stop being the Avatar.

I mean, the Avatar only got to the point of having lots of wisdom to draw upon because they made lots of mistakes throughout their lives to begin with, without much past life wisdom to draw upon. this wisdom is built upon many of the early Avatars being in pretty much the same position as Korra, still figuring things out, even if they did have a few previous lives, those past lives were still figuring things out as well! and as we have seen down the years, this wisdom has still resulted in Avatars who made mistakes and screwed things up, leaving the next Avatar to fix the mistakes of the previous one. the past lives are not the point, the point is the person doing it NOW, what THEY decide. not what Roku think should be done, or the person before that, or the person before that. they can only offer advice. Roku's advice was "kill Ozai" Aang said "screw that!" and took away his bending instead! if thats not evidence of the past lives being fallible, I don't know what is.

point is, Aang found a way to fix things without resorting to Roku's advice. he in fact disregarded his past lives only important recommendation in the entire series. as far as we know, the Avatar past life "wisdom" has done jack and squat. as the right solution was only found when Aang didn't listen to it, while the only other two Avatars in the series we've really seen in action are: Wan and Korra, one is the first Avatar, and the second never having much of a spiritual connection in the first place, so overall the importance of the Avatars past lives and their wisdom in Avatar, in general, has been: little to none! So to me, Korra is the Avatar, because while the Avatar the diplomat and such to the spirit world, that has nothing to do with actually having the past lives or not, as you can be diplomatic and negotiable with the spirits without them. I didn't see Aang having the backup of any past lives when he was in the spirit world, he was doing things himself anyways.

and guess what? all the Avatars we've been shown in action have been young! this show is not about the adult Avatars, who have already learned their lessons and come up with reasonable solutions infallibly its about Avatars who are still learning and trying to figure things out about themselves as well the job, but even then, judging by the adult Avatars we've seen, they still make mistakes! Korra not having the wisdom of a thousand lives, big deal, as if she ever possessed that in the first place, welcome to not having ONE source of information that can be replaced with other forms of information and advice, the horror. that and it might just be a crutch anyways, since if you constantly go to your past lives for advice, you'll never make the mistakes and gain wisdom that you yourself can use to do things more competently. sure you learn from other peoples mistakes, but I think its more important to learn from your own, which is an important part of growing up and learning to deal with life, you can't just constantly go to your elders for advice on everything now can you? at some point you need to spread your wings and make your decisions yourself.

and if the episodes we've seen is any indication, she is starting to learn from her mistakes and try and do better, make decisions herself and y'know. grow up. the Avatar I think in general needs to learn this- that the past lives thing isn't all that you can rely upon for advice, that using them too much is just as stupid as using bending too much or whatever. so no, I do think Korra is still the Avatar. the Avatar above all is about keeping balance and peace in the world. past lives help, but they're not the point.

[Mad Hattington]

Well let's be honest: for Korra the loss of connection to her past lives does only matter when it comes to the avatar state itself. She has communicated with past lifes exactly three times.
And I think that the creators of the show didn't even really think about the whole "loosing connection to past lifes" all that much. For me it always seemed, that they looked for a way to weaken Korra and stealing the knowledge of all her reincarnations was the only way to do so. Because honestly, if Korra could still access the power of all other avatars, the Big Bads of this season wouldn't really be any trouble.
I also thought, that was the thing, that made the past lifes so important: not the possibility to talk to them, but their bending experience, that made the avatar so strong. As it has already been said several times, the advice the Avatars give, isn't really all that great.

[MLai]

I'll try to sort out your important points here......

communicating only when they meditate, MLai, all successful communication with past Avatars have been through meditation. and just because a lot of people think on the same problem doesn't mean they get a good solution, you can just get groupthink or whatever.

We're not talking about "a bunch of ppl." We're talking about the Avatars. Y'know, Korra being one of them that you're so dead set on defending? Why aren't you defending the implicit worth, gumption, and smarts of all the other heroic Avatar guys and gals who came before?

that and their wisdom is only wise for their time.

This is untrue. Especially from an Eastern lens. Which this show is supposedly emulating.
That opinion above sounds like a teenager screaming at the parents "You just don't understand (me)!" I'm not belittling you, I'm just describing why I disagree with it at a fundamental level.
Deeper wisdom is timeless, especially when the limitation of spoken words is removed from the transfer of it.

what, should the Avatar meditate before making any important decision?

You mean such as the night before an Avatar decides "I'm going to approach the king of this nation, and lay out why and how I feel his policies need to change"?
Hell yes.

Not everything an Avatar does is dramatic nail-biting heat-of-the-moment acts of heroism. In fact that should be 0.0001% of what an Avatar does on a daily basis. We're seeing all the adventuring because y'know this is a cartoon show and we're following Korra. You put Jesus or Lincoln in a cartoon show, and they'd become kung fu fightin' vampire slayers too. Doesn't mean that's what makes them wise.

the whole "speak to all my past lives" thing really does is provide a more direct way to learn from history before your doomed to repeat it, which can be replaced with y'know. actually learning history yourself and figuring out your problems

Except we know history is written by the victors, and then re-written by the ones victorious over the previous victors, and then re-written by those victorious over them. Only the Avatars would be able to impart true history.

they can only offer advice. Roku's advice was "kill Ozai" Aang said "screw that!" and took away his bending instead! if thats not evidence of the past lives being fallible, I don't know what is.

Actually, the only reason that worked out is because of the plot boulder that jabbed Aang in the spine just right, at just the right time. This is not an example of Aang being right and his Avatar advisors being wrong. This is an example of Aang being childish and wrong, but ends up winning anyways because writer deus ex machina.

you can't just constantly go to your elders for advice on everything now can you? at some point you need to spread your wings and make your decisions yourself.

You keep separating Korra from the other Avatars, when they're literally her past lives. This is a level of intimacy closer than wife, closer than child. I know that's unclear from the show, to the point where you can argue it's my headcanon, and real Avatar-hood just means you're a super-bender but with the annoyance of having crotchety old ghosts yammerin' at you. It's ridiculously disrespectful to the Eastern concept AFAIC. Again, the show makes up this world but then does a sloppy job with it starting with the 3rd season of ATLA.

I do think Korra is still the Avatar. the Avatar above all is about keeping balance and peace in the world. past lives help, but they're not the point.

I never said she can't be a superhero. I SAID, now that she doesn't have supernatural wisdom to back up her 16 y/o self, no ruler in his/her right mind would give her the time of day on matters of governance.

[Reddish Mage]

You keep separating Korra from the other Avatars, when they're literally her past lives. This is a level of intimacy closer than wife, closer than child. I know that's unclear from the show, to the point where you can argue it's my headcanon, and real Avatar-hood just means you're a super-bender but with the annoyance of having crotchety old ghosts yammerin' at you. It's ridiculously disrespectful to the Eastern concept AFAIC. Again, the show makes up this world but then does a sloppy job with it starting with the 3rd season of ATLA.


I never said she can't be a superhero. I SAID, now that she doesn't have supernatural wisdom to back up her 16 y/o self, no ruler in his/her right mind would give her the time of day on matters of governance.

Everything about the above quotes suggest you are reading the "Eastern concept" of reincarnation into the show. The "Avatar" is its own concept, and you agree the show suggests Korra's past lives influence her the way an elder would.

[in response to Lord Razeire's comment about past Avatar wisdom only being wise for their time] This is untrue. Especially from an Eastern lens. Which this show is supposedly emulating.
That opinion above sounds like a teenager screaming at the parents "You just don't understand (me)!" I'm not belittling you, I'm just describing why I disagree with it at a fundamental level.
Deeper wisdom is timeless, especially when the limitation of spoken words is removed from the transfer of it.

The show "emulates" Eastern values to the extent it wants to. It isn't exactly unheard of for anime heroes to assert their own values and break with the past either.

It seems you want the show to represent a certain "Eastern" point of view about timeless wisdom and past life guidance and saying that it has done a "sloppy job starting with season 3 of Last Airbender." Perhaps the show is doing a good job at what it wants to portray instead.

[MLai]

Everything about the above quotes suggest you are reading the "Eastern concept" of reincarnation into the show. The "Avatar" is its own concept, and you agree the show suggests Korra's past lives influence her the way an elder would.

It's difficult to tell exactly what nature of communication there is. During the flashback of Aang subduing Amon's father... Is Korra seeing Aang's memory through the mind's eye, or is Aang telling a story to Korra who is just sitting there? How good a storyteller/ accurate a reporter is Aang? Because we didn't hear him tell a story via words which can be biased or vague; we saw his memories. Same thing with Roku's flashback of his history with the previous Firelord. A spoken story which is only as accurate as the teller's skill with words (which we didn't hear so we can't judge), or a memory for Aang to experience as if he's there, in a meditative trance (which is what we saw so should we assume that's what Aang saw and heard and felt?)?

Like I already said, sloppy if you think about it deeper than it deserves.

It seems you want the show to represent a certain "Eastern" point of view about timeless wisdom and past life guidance and saying that it has done a "sloppy job starting with season 3 of Last Airbender." Perhaps the show is doing a good job at what it wants to portray instead.

I'm not the only person in this forum who thinks Season 03 was sloppy overall, go read past ATLA threads here and you'll see it stated multiple times by multiple ppl. I'm just detailing on 1 more thing which made it that way.