Legend of Korra Book 3: Bending over Backwards

[Lord Raziere]

yea but here is the thing: Aang didn't just go and meditate to get advice from Roku before he met say, the northern water tribe leader, or the earth kingdom leader, and while you can say "child Avatar" all you want, you can't deny that Aang was wiser when he was like, twelve or so than Korra is at sixteen, and could far easily do it, and was more used to doing it- if there was anyone who was the most likely to do that and think of it in the place, it would be Aang.

that and the Avatar above all does have to think for themselves- the Avatar is much like an Exalted that way. sure they have past lives, but guess what? those lives are past. they're gone. only there to give advice and knowledge- nothing more. ultimately the Avatar, in the powerful position they are in, must decide things for themselves. they are the only person in the world with such power after all, and it is their responsibility alone to wield it- not their past lives responsibility. I would question an Avatar who lets their past lives constantly hold their hand all the time. to grow over-reliant on any one resource is unwise in itself.

as for eastern wisdom:

Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.

Wisdom ceases to be wisdom when it becomes too proud to weep, too grave to laugh, and too selfish to seek other than itself.

“There was no one that Confucius could not learn from, and yet there was no one who was his only
teacher.”

“He who knows others is perceptive; he who knows himself is supremely wise. He who conquers others is strong; he who conquers himself is supremely powerful.”

"We have to be the change we want in the world"

"To make the right choices in life, you have to get in touch with your soul, to do this you need to experience solitude, which most people are afraid of, because in the silence you hear the truth and know the solutions"

"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one way. We ourselves must walk the path."

"believe nothing no matter where you read it, or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"

at the center of your being you have the answer, you know who you are and what you want

Do not follow the ideas of others, but learn to listen to the voice within yourself"

yeah, you might think those two quotes there are actually against my point, but no, to rely only on the Avatar past lives would be to rely overly much on one source of knowledge, when really you have to think for yourself, have many sources of information, and that ultimately, you have to decide what to do with it, you can't just accept it, you have to listen to your own reason and judgement, to act unquestioningly on others advice is unwise in itself. yes, even ancient Eastern Wisdom acknowledges that you have to find your answers and have your own initiative, because wisdom is all about getting you to think for yourself, not relying on the thoughts of others. if the past Avatars just made them obey everything they advised, the Avatar past lives would be soon be populated by the unthinking, allowing the same lives to dominate all others and thus they would no longer be wise, but fools trying to force the Avatar to their point of view.

if I was a teacher after all, I'd consider a disciple who cannot solve their problems themselves, a bad disciple. after all, I taught them! my job would not be to solve their problems but give them the strength to do so themselves. Avatar wisdom therefore would not be to help the Avatar in the current situation, but teach them wisdom ahead of time so that they can help themselves. true wisdom knows that one properly taught will figure out themselves what to do and only comes for help when they've exhausted all other possibilities. granted, Korra is still learning, but no one in the world really ever stops learning anyways. does one stop being a doctor, or a mathematician or a martial artist just because his teacher died? no. it merely means that one has to learn things themselves. all things end eventually. why not the Avatar past lives? a new generation must take over eventually, even if it took longer than usual for the Avatar past lives to do so.

[Infernally Clay]

That's especially true of Aang. How many times did he ignore Roku's perspective and do his own thing?

[MLai]

you can't deny that Aang was wiser when he was like, twelve or so than Korra is at sixteen, and could far easily do it, and was more used to doing it- if there was anyone who was the most likely to do that and think of it in the place, it would be Aang.

Ofc Aang can do it better than Korra.
I'm saying a 60 y/o wise adult master Avatar can do it (commune with his past lives in a deeper way than just talking to them conversationally 1-on-1, in the limited capacity of an 11 y/o child talking to an adult and trying to understand all the deep adult things the adult is trying to impart by words) much better than an 11 y/o Aang. A 60 y/o Aang can do it much better than an 11 y/o Aang.

that and the Avatar above all does have to think for themselves- the Avatar is much like an Exalted that way. sure they have past lives, but guess what? those lives are past. they're gone.

You have a very limited appreciation of "past life." You seem to think of it as the biography of a stranger you don't care about, in written text on some old book filled with outdated ideas, that you only read when you feel like it. If that's the definition of an Avatar, then he/she is really a pretty mediocre individual in that respect. Not any better than any teenage superhero muddling through teenage life and drama in an American comic book.

And to reiterate, that's NOT what the canon Avatar is. What the canon actually says an Avatar is, is pretty confusing and sloppily described, as I said in my previous post. Does it affect ATLA's story quality a lot? Not really. But now that the subject is delved into in Korra, and ppl think about it more, you can see how sloppy it was done.

yeah, you might think those two quotes there are actually against my point,

Actually most of those quotes go against your point. Because those quotes apply to one's relationship with other people. An Avatar's past lives are an integral part of himself. According to Avatar cartoon wiki, an Avatar is a reincarnation of Rava in physical form. Rava isn't just some sleeping parasite dormant in Korra/ Aang/ Roku etc, acting like some bending battery. Rava is a part of the human Avatar's being/soul. When Aang speaks to a past Avatar he is speaking to a part of himself. You keep picturing the Avatars as a line of clingy ghosts of other ppl, of strangers, tagging along behind Aang/Korra "the complete person". That is not the canon.

One thing the above does explain, is why with all 500 Avatars across the millennia, not a single one of them decided to go evil overlord. Such power theoretically should corrupt, and statistically not all 500 should have a heart of gold. Well, they all do because they are all Rava.

but no, to rely only on the Avatar past lives would be to rely overly much on one source of knowledge,

So now 500 different lifetimes through the entire recorded history of ATLA humanity, is only "one source of knowledge" that should not be relied on overly much?
Somewhere a historian just dropped dead.

That's especially true of Aang. How many times did he ignore Roku's perspective and do his own thing?

And turns out to be wrong, and is only saved from his childish naive mistakes because of plot armor?

[Metahuman1]

MLai: Let me just point something out to your position that your insisting on.

You maintain that she's a super powerful bender and outside of being attacked that should count for exactly jack squat.

And yet, Kiyoshi stopped Chin the Conquerer with brute force bending. Roku staved off Sozin's military operations by point blank telling "do it" and then when he didn't listen beat the crap out of his and destroyed a chunk of his palace and threatened him with his life, and then later regretted NOT KILLING HIM! Korik Regretted letting other rules do stuff with out his say so cause it got his wife killed and his response was to straight up kill Koa the Face Stealer. Aang attempted to talk to Ozi, Long Feng and Azula more then once between them, and it didn't stick so he had to beat the crap out of them with super bending to get his way.

But when Korra threatens people, it's bad and she sucks at being the Avatar, and she shouldn't do that, and everyone should just write her off out of hand even though the response of the past avatars would have been to make threats and beat the hell out of the rulers writing them off out of hand until they stopped writing them off and did as the Avatar instructed.



Either you just want to dish on Korra and are just looking for any excuse you can conjure to do so, or, you don't understand this universe half as well as you think you do. Sorta like a certain movie director who couldn't even get the names pronounced right in his adaptaiton.

[MLai]

You maintain that she's a super powerful bender and outside of being attacked that should count for exactly jack squat.

Yes.

And yet, Kiyoshi stopped Chin the Conquerer with brute force bending.... But when Korra threatens people, it's bad and she sucks at being the Avatar, and she shouldn't do that,

And that's why I said it's okay for Wan because he existed in the mythological age/ the age of heroes.

See, this has already been addressed by another poster in this thread. I can't find it now but maybe you should re-read this thread. Korra's show is set in a time period of stability, with modern nations and modern formalized international relations taking place. You can no longer run around acting like Achilles in the year 1920, and pretend that you're doing good in an effective manner.

A lot of the complaints other forumites here have been levying against Korra, is precisely because of the above. For example, Korra attacking the judge and that got on ppl's nerves. If it was during Aang's time, it's not a big deal because it was global war and society was breaking down all around Aang. Aang didn't have to obey laws because there were none that applied; half the time he's in enemy territory ofc he doesn't have to obey their rules. But Korra attacking a judge just because she had a hunch is destabilizing to a modern society even if it turns out later that she's luckily right.

Ofc in the story it turns out her actions saved the day, but that's because of writer fiat.

you don't understand this universe half as well as you think you do. Sorta like a certain movie director who couldn't even get the names pronounced right in his adaptaiton.

Don't get too emotional and attack the person not the opinion. I'm trying to stay neutral in tone.

[Scowling Dragon]

And that's why I said it's okay for Wan because he existed in the mythological age/ the age of heroes.

This is my note:

When discussing issues don't give your opponent a way to weasel out of a conversation or critical reflection. Address them head on and leave no place for doubt. Your arguments should be precise, and brutal like a cinderblock to the face. Like the arguments of Edgeworth in his spinoff series.

Kioshi used brute force because he was a Conqueror that was pretty hated by the people and a tyrant too. So it was a lop the head off the snake situation. The firebending nation had a century of indoctrination and subjugation.

And the point is not that somebody need to exert some brute force every once in a while (A Lesson even AANG had to learn).

Its that Korra has nothing BUT brute force.

[Lord Raziere]

except.....thats exactly how they visually depict the past Avatars. as separate people you talk to trailing long behind the current one. Aang didn't know about Roku's, or Kyoshi's mistakes until he was told about them. he doesn't access their knowledge unless he specifically taps into it, where then it goes away. and Korra still seems to be herself even without the few hundred or thousand Avatars that were in her already, she seems be functional, heck she actually seems to be learning to show more restraint without them. the extent of her access to their knowledge and such is using the Avatar state for short boosts of power, even if she had it, she wouldn't be learning, she'd just be using their practical bending power anyways and just ignore their actual advice, and wouldn't learn anything wise because of it.

furthermore, Rava would have to bond with someone new every time they're born anyways, meaning before they're bonded they are at least the beginnings of a new person before they become the Avatar. and the fact that Rava can be separated from the Avatar themselves as a whole and the Avatar is still alive, means that on some level they are separate entities. when Rava was torn out of Korra, she was still living, if they were truly the same Korra would already be dead. heck, Rava would be dead. the only time the Avatar REALLY seems united and one is in the Avatar State, and thats a temporary mode with the potential to kill the Avatar permanently.

and heck, how would the past Avatars even deal with the two worlds being one anyways? sure they can deal with them being separate, but thats a far cry from the worlds being one again and everyone having to deal with the spirits mucking up life. only Wan had any real experience with them being in the world on a wide scale, and he locked them all away in the first place. they wouldn't be useful in this new world anyways. that and while wisdom is eternal and general, its also very vague and not very helpful to the current situation. there is a reason why we use logic and rationality instead. I mean what would they tell her to speak to the Earth Queen, spout a bunch of empty platitudes and say "keep calm and diplomatic" or whatever? she already did that to strike a deal to find Airbenders and the Queen gone back on the deal and clearly lied by saying "There are no Airbenders in Ba Sing Se". right. cause the Avatar follows up on sources of information that are unreliable, when all the others shown so far are completely right in having Airbenders even if they don't join.

it ludicrous to suddenly declare that Korra is not the Avatar anymore then act as if Wan is an exception to the rule of the Avatar always having a vast source of wisdom and knowledge at their disposal, while ignoring say the Second Avatar who only had one guy to advise him, WHOLE LOTTA WISDOM THERE! or say the Third Avatar, who only had two guys to advise him/her, WHAT VAST RESOURCES OF WISDOM AT YOUR COMMAND THERE! or say that past lives is a useful resource at all when it hasn't been shown to be useful in show. y'know. aside from the practical bending techniques.

also, the "deus ex machina" has been shown, by Wan, to just be the fifth turtle that he missed. it seems more like foreshadowing than bad writing, and it set up the entire first season of Korra through Amon. which means its connected in at least two ways to the rest of the Avatar-verse, and it just wasn't shown to us immediately because well the writer doesn't have to explain everything immediately to the viewer, some things are better left a mystery to be solved for another day. some things are just better left unexplained for a while. spirit-bending provided us a plot hook to explore in a later series and the turtle a connection to the story of the First Avatar, its just an early showing of what is clearly already consistent.

that and you can talk about bad writing all you want, but there is no way that an american show that focuses on the morality of killing a man who is dangerous when its clearly shown on a network meant for kids is going to actually kill the guy. adding in a way to depower the guy led to the plots we have now, or at least the first one. writers have to write around the networks rules, and disregarding them would just get them kicked out of a job. they're already pushing the envelope a lot by making it not be just another bad cartoon where everything is solved in 24 minutes while cracking bad jokes. you can't hold them to standards that can't possibly work in the real world.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly I think the increasing irrelevance of the avatar is part of a larger issue indipendent of Korra's personal traits good or bad. As the world modernizes and the nations continue to interact and intermingle and government begins to heavily shift towards more republican or democratic ideals the world has less need for an avatar to involve itself in their politics. They are just one person at the end of the day, and as the world grows they get smaller and smaller. Short of world ending threats like the great conjunction or Bender Hitler the avatar should just hang back and let the world turn.

[Infernally Clay]

Korra is the Avatar and she's in a world totally lacking in spirituality or respect for the spirits. The fact is that nobody would act towards Korra the way they do now if they lived seventy or more years ago. You say the world is in a period of stability, but it's not. Even Republic City, the most "stable" place in the world, is still rife with gang warfare and social inequality. Outside of there it's even worse. You've got immense poverty in Ba Sing Se and frequent raids coupled with a corrupt government. The whole reason Amon was able to cause as much trouble as he did was because the world is in pretty bad shape.

If anything, the Avatar is needed now more than ever and yet nobody is listening to her. They basically sacrificed their spirituality for modernity. If the only way to get people to pay attention is to bust a few skulls, then what's the problem? In fact, one could argue Korra was specifically chosen by the spirits to act as the guide of humanity because she's the only one bullheaded enough to actually change anything. Someone like Aang wouldve been pretty terrible at changing the ways of the current world.

[Dragonus45]

Korra is the Avatar and she's in a world totally lacking in spirituality or respect for the spirits. The fact is that nobody would act towards Korra the way they do now if they lived seventy or more years ago. You say the world is in a period of stability, but it's not. Even Republic City, the most "stable" place in the world, is still rife with gang warfare and social inequality. Outside of there it's even worse. You've got immense poverty in Ba Sing Se and frequent raids coupled with a corrupt government. The whole reason Amon was able to cause as much trouble as he did was because the world is in pretty bad shape.

If anything, the Avatar is needed now more than ever and yet nobody is listening to her. They basically sacrificed their spirituality for modernity. If the only way to get people to pay attention is to bust a few skulls, then what's the problem? In fact, one could argue Korra was specifically chosen by the spirits to act as the guide of humanity because she's the only one bullheaded enough to actually change anything. Someone like Aang wouldve been pretty terrible at changing the ways of the current world.

The spirits don't DESERVE respect, the last thing they need in that world is a walking nuke going about and bashing everyone who fails to lay down and allow the spirits to herd them back into their designated cities.

[Flickerdart]

The spirits don't DESERVE respect, the last thing they need in that world is a walking nuke going about and bashing everyone who fails to lay down and allow the spirits to herd them back into their designated cities.

It's not that the spirits don't deserve respect, it's that they don't deserve any more or less of it than humans do.

[BWR]

Korra is the Avatar and she's in a world totally lacking in spirituality or respect for the spirits. The fact is that nobody would act towards Korra the way they do now if they lived seventy or more years ago.

You mean like the entire Fire Nation which tried to kill the Avatar for 100 years and had crazies who wanted to kill vital spirits?
Or the Earth Kingdom which just didn't care so long as the same bosses were in charge? (a bit of speculation on my part, but they certainily didn't seem terribly interested in anything spiritual)

[Infernally Clay]

The spirits don't DESERVE respect, the last thing they need in that world is a walking nuke going about and bashing everyone who fails to lay down and allow the spirits to herd them back into their designated cities.

Yes, they do. We learned that very early on in The Legend of Aang. Remember the panda spirit? Or what happened when Zhao killed the fish? Or what Koh could do? The spirits are powerful beings that keep the world in balance - and the lionturtles thing I assume you're referencing was due to humans treating the spirits without respect, like Wan's friends setting fire to trees and accusing the spirits who lived in them of being aggressive and violent.

If humans treated the spirits with respect and actually managed to live in peace with them then things would go so much smoother and one can assume it's Korra's purpose to encourage that. The whole harmonic convergence thing has basically forced humans and spirits to coexist in peace.

[Morty]

If humans treated the spirits with respect and actually managed to live in peace with them then things would go so much smoother and one can assume it's Korra's purpose to encourage that. The whole harmonic convergence thing has basically forced humans and spirits to coexist in peace.

Kind of hard to show respect to spirits if they attack you when you so much as set foot outside the city they keep you penned in. Death by starvation is kind of respectful to the people who won't let you get any food, I suppose?

[Infernally Clay]

Kind of hard to show respect to spirits if they attack you when you so much as set foot outside the city they keep you penned in. Death by starvation is kind of respectful to the people who won't let you get any food, I suppose?

Again, they only did that because of human's aggression in the past. Remember Wan's human friends? The ones that were burning down forests and attacking any spirits that came near them? That's what humans were like back then. That's why only a very select few were ever given Bending and only temporarily at that. Once Wan started showing the spirits respect rather than fear or hatred, he got along with them and made quite a few friends in the process as well. Most spirits don't seem to have any inherent problem with humans beyond the whole "I'm a spirit that's lived for centuries or more and this guy that's a few decades old is telling me what I can and cannot do" thing. The spirits have proven many times over that they're generally willing to meet humans half way, but it's the humans that have repeatedly shown they've no interest in even going that far.

[cobaltstarfire]

When we were shown the humans burning down the forest was after it had been established that the spirits attack/kill/maim humans who leave their cities, and often enjoyed doing it. It really shouldn't be of any surprise that the humans who decided to permanently move out into the world did so in an aggressive way.

[Flickerdart]

That's exactly why the Avatar needs to exist - he's supposed to be the person who breaks that cycle of violence and forces everyone to get along.

[Reddish Mage]

And to reiterate, that's NOT what the canon Avatar is. What the canon actually says an Avatar is, is pretty confusing and sloppily described, as I said in my previous post. Does it affect ATLA's story quality a lot? Not really. But now that the subject is delved into in Korra, and ppl think about it more, you can see how sloppy it was done.

According to Avatar cartoon wiki, an Avatar is a reincarnation of Rava in physical form. Rava isn't just some sleeping parasite dormant in Korra/ Aang/ Roku etc, acting like some bending battery. Rava is a part of the human Avatar's being/soul. When Aang speaks to a past Avatar he is speaking to a part of himself. You keep picturing the Avatars as a line of clingy ghosts of other ppl, of strangers, tagging along behind Aang/Korra "the complete person". That is not the canon.

One thing the above does explain, is why with all 500 Avatars across the millennia, not a single one of them decided to go evil overlord. Such power theoretically should corrupt, and statistically not all 500 should have a heart of gold. Well, they all do because they are all Rava.


So now 500 different lifetimes through the entire recorded history of ATLA humanity, is only "one source of knowledge" that should not be relied on overly much?
Somewhere a historian just dropped dead.


And turns out to be wrong, and is only saved from his childish naive mistakes because of plot armor?

If you are going to say what the Avatar is canonically, I'd go with a source more official than a wiki. It is quite clear that the Avatar is a single reincarnated person and is receiving wisdom of his/her past lives, but it seems equally clear that this past life wisdom is not an integral part of the living Avatar's personality or memories, and the Avatar can only retrieve this wisdom under special circumstances. There is no problem with saying that this wisdom appears like a vision or a conversation. Its not muddled or confused, its the reason neither Aang and Korra act like they've been around for 10,000 years.

Regardless of how well you think the show's points are written, there is no reason why they can't write past life wisdom this way, and you haven't given any evidence that they didn't mean to.

and heck, how would the past Avatars even deal with the two worlds being one anyways? sure they can deal with them being separate, but thats a far cry from the worlds being one again and everyone having to deal with the spirits mucking up life. only Wan had any real experience with them being in the world on a wide scale, and he locked them all away in the first place.

This is true, instead of having Korra have to deal with things without Avatar wisdom sessions, the writers could have put Korra in the situation of going to the Avatars and not getting any helpful answers. However, I think the mechanic of past life visions had run its course by season 2, and instead of showing an internal battle between Korra and her past lives it was time to try exploring what its like for Korra to figure things out without that connection.

[MLai]

If you are going to say what the Avatar is canonically, I'd go with a source more official than a wiki. It is quite clear that the Avatar is a single reincarnated person and is receiving wisdom of his/her past lives, but it seems equally clear that this past life wisdom is not an integral part of the living Avatar's personality or memories, and the Avatar can only retrieve this wisdom under special circumstances. There is no problem with saying that this wisdom appears like a vision or a conversation. Its not muddled or confused, its the reason neither Aang and Korra act like they've been around for 10,000 years.

Regardless of how well you think the show's points are written, there is no reason why they can't write past life wisdom this way, and you haven't given any evidence that they didn't mean to.

Did you read my post where I described exactly why it is sloppy, confusing, and contradictory as written?
It's on the same page, I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote.

[SuperPanda]

One of the problems that the show has introduced as of Season 2 is that there are now 2 canon and equally relevant definitions of the Avatar. I'll refer to these as the Legend and the Origin

The Legend: This is what people in-universe think the Avatar is suppose to be and our interaction with it goes back to Katara, "I believe Aang can save the world."

In Legend the Avatar is a human incarnation of pure cosmic energy, timeless wisdom, Supreme bending, and moral authority. We see Aang's journey towards becoming this in his patient (for a 12 year old) handling of different mentalities and cultures and his eagerness to do what was right for everyone.

In Season 1 of Korra, she's struggling with her self-doubt. She's only ever cared about the power of being the Avatar, and deep down inside she's afraid she'll fail to be wise. She's even lead to doubt her own absolute moral authority (but not nearly enough for most of our tastes).

The Origin: Wan was a very moral person in a very amoral age. Everyone and everything was less moral than he was - both spirit and human - when it came to cruelty and prejudice at the least. Raava didn't know enough about people to know how to appeal to their better nature until Wan taught her/it. Wan becomes the Avatar through a willingness to atone for his mistake. It was his well intended mistake which caused the Avatar to exist at all.

In this way the Avatar is really the continuation of Raava's spiritual energy fused to a human form sharing the soul of a person and granting them access to their power. It could be argued that the reason we've never heard of a out-and-out evil Avatar is that they actually can't be. Raava was presented as the Good alignment spirit, and so all Avatars are forever Good aligned and very powerful and from that the legend grows.

------------

For us the viewer it means that we know the Avatar isn't "The chosen one" who will end the disaster at the end the way Aang was presented to be. The Avatar is instead a random person with a bigger than average heart and a unique talent for bending. The spirituality of past Avatars allowed them to contact their own past lives and gain mystic wisdom and brute cosmic power. Korra's weakness as an Avatar in many of our eyes has been that she's either failed or refused to explore that part of herself.

My complaint story wise is that the character had this very interesting path of development to go down and the show brutally wrote it out of continuity (had the power to do it ripped from her by the big bad and had the importance of it exposed to be a creation of generations that had forgotten the truth.)

Is Korra "The Avatar" every bit as much as Aang was?

Korra in Origin - even more so. She wants to do what's right and uses her power to try to force the world to make things right, more than that she's "fixed" two disasters before reaching full adult-hood somehow.
Aang in Origin - He made a big, if very human, mistake and then devoted the remainder of his life to try to fix it.

Korra in Legend - she has a very long way to go and has been busy take paths leading in other directions. She might get there, but the show seems to be taking steps to try to diminish other people's wisdom (Lin, Tenzin, Aang - parenting -, The White Lotus, Mako and Bolin) rather than allow her to learn and grow into the Legend she's suppose to live up to.

Aang in Legend - In many ways Aang is the Legend, and for the people in Korra's time and most of the viewers it is him, not Wan, she'll be forever measured against. In this, she's not living up.

[Fiery Diamond]

When we were shown the humans burning down the forest was after it had been established that the spirits attack/kill/maim humans who leave their cities, and often enjoyed doing it. It really shouldn't be of any surprise that the humans who decided to permanently move out into the world did so in an aggressive way.

Also, we should keep in mind that this dynamic was not universal. The Air Humans respected the local spirits even while mostly keeping to the shelter of their lion turtle, and as a result when they went out to forage for food they didn't feel the need to engage in conflict with spirits and the spirits didn't feel the need to engage in conflict with them.

Essentially, in and before Wan's time, respect was the key to how the world worked: if humans didn't respect spirits, the spirits were hostile to humans, which in turn made the humans disrespectful and hostile to spirits, and it continued in a vicious cycle; if humans did respect spirits, the spirits either befriended them or left them alone, which fostered a situation in which humans would continue to respect them. The spirits aren't just innately jerks, but they aren't innately something to be revered either.

[Dragonus45]

Yes, they do. We learned that very early on in The Legend of Aang. Remember the panda spirit? Or what happened when Zhao killed the fish? Or what Koh could do?

If humans treated the spirits with respect and actually managed to live in peace with them then things would go so much smoother and one can assume it's Korra's purpose to encourage that. The whole harmonic convergence thing has basically forced humans and spirits to coexist in peace.

You mean the panda spirit that decided to terrorize a villiage because OTHER PEOPLE burned it's Forrest down. Zhao was killed the moon and was a straight out villain so I'm not sure how that's relevant to the need for people to respect the spirits, and Koh is a great example of why the spirits are bad news for everyone. What Koh "can do" is nightmare inducing and I'm not sure why you would even bring it up unless you think bullies deserve respect because they can rip for face off for showing emotion. I don't see spirits living in peace after the HC, I see spirits taking over a human city and knocking buildings over when the avatar tries to move them. Where you say "show respect" I see "bow down and give up the right to disagree with".

Again, they only did that because of human's aggression in the past. Remember Wan's human friends? The ones that were burning down forests and attacking any spirits that came near them? That's what humans were like back then. That's why only a very select few were ever given Bending and only temporarily at that. Once Wan started showing the spirits respect rather than fear or hatred, he got along with them and made quite a few friends in the process as well. Most spirits don't seem to have any inherent problem with humans beyond the whole "I'm a spirit that's lived for centuries or more and this guy that's a few decades old is telling me what I can and cannot do" thing. The spirits have proven many times over that they're generally willing to meet humans half way, but it's the humans that have repeatedly shown they've no interest in even going that far.

Yea those humans in fear for their lives because any attempts to go outside were often met with terrible violent deaths. Those humans who were in a position where they had to come out swinging because they were so massively outmatched. Even powerful modern master benders couldn't match spirits in a fight are you honestly going to tell me a bunch of people who were only given bending part time or had none at all were even a threat to them. How do you think humanity wound up on those reservations in the first place, even the nicest spirits are apparently just a Vaatu away from going dark and eating 20 or 30 people before they can be stopped. Yes he got along great with the spirits once he helped them kill a few people and showed he could be relied upon to take their side, shame about the people though I'm sure they just needed to show more respect to their oppressors.

[Kitten Champion]

I've always saw the spirits in Avatar as Ghibli-esque deities, on a sliding scale of terrifying to whimsically enchanting, but mostly a product of nature. When the world is pushed into disharmony the spirits respond with corruption and madness. It's kind of a theme and stuff.

I don't know, spirits as these alien invaders from a different dimension who are but capricious disasters waiting to be unleashed on the modern world kind of stomps on that. I just like the Miyazaki version better since it has relevance, I suppose.

[MLai]

I think Superpanda's post #230 is the best summary for the past page or so where I debated on what it means to be the Avatar and possess moral authority. Anyone who feels like arguing with me some more, stop, and just read Superpanda's post again and see if you disagree with any part of his post.

I've always saw the spirits in Avatar as Ghibli-esque deities, on a sliding scale of terrifying to whimsically enchanting, but mostly a product of nature. When the world is pushed into disharmony the spirits respond with corruption and madness. It's kind of a theme and stuff.
I don't know, spirits as these alien invaders from a different dimension who are but capricious disasters waiting to be unleashed on the modern world kind of stomps on that. I just like the Miyazaki version better since it has relevance, I suppose.

A lot of the LoK canon stomps on the setting relevance that ppl felt while watching ATLA. The spirits, the Avatar... they've all lost their resonance to Eastern mysticism and Eastern culture. Now it's basically its own steampunk fantasy setting with its own rules. Fun for an adventure, but don't look for any more poignant themes-ala-Miyazaki from the show.

[SuperPanda]

I've always saw the spirits in Avatar as Ghibli-esque deities, on a sliding scale of terrifying to whimsically enchanting, but mostly a product of nature. When the world is pushed into disharmony the spirits respond with corruption and madness. It's kind of a theme and stuff.

I don't know, spirits as these alien invaders from a different dimension who are but capricious disasters waiting to be unleashed on the modern world kind of stomps on that. I just like the Miyazaki version better since it has relevance, I suppose.

In ATLA the "spirit world" was implied (but never outright said) to be something like a mirror or reflection of this one. I know that I read it as being somewhere between an Ethereal plane and the Mirror-World of Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening.

Spiritual energy seems to deform physical matter in both ATLA and ATLK and the spiritual is shown to have a whimsical and imagination like quality which is equally wondrous and terrifying. ATLA had more Ghibli themed spiritual encounters, but it would seem that those were the outliers rather than the norm.

The Legend of Wan implied that we were, in reality, the invaders more so than the spirits. In Wan's time, the spirits ruled over nearly the entire world having all be eliminated humanity. Its worth wondering why they did this as human emotion seems to be very powerfully reflected in spirits, to the point that it begs whether or not there is an innate connection that even Wan didn't know about (but Raava should have).

The plot we have in season 3 is closer to Doctor Who Season 5 Silurians. This was their planet before humanity rose to power and they use to hunt us for sport. Then a power beyond their control forced them into hiding. Now they're free to come back and not any more interested in their "invader's" rights than the reverse.

I preferred the Ghibli-esque dream-creatures as well but they seem to be the elite while grumpy hedgehog and rude-lemur-man are the common people, er-spirits.

In short: Spirits like Wan Shi Tong, Ocean and Moon, Koh ... these spirits demand respect because we are as ants to them.

Grumpy hedgehog is a particularly persistent annoyance who doesn't care that life is inconvenient for you when he's around. If you get mad enough at him though, he'll turn into a monster and rip your head off because you got mad (assuming the negative emotion feed-back from Season 2 shows up again and isn't swept away as "only happening near Harmonic Convergence).

[Scowling Dragon]

A lot of the LoK canon stomps on the setting relevance that ppl felt while watching ATLA. The spirits, the Avatar... they've all lost their resonance to Eastern mysticism and Eastern culture. Now it's basically its own steampunk fantasy setting with its own rules. Fun for an adventure, but don't look for any more poignant themes-ala-Miyazaki from the show.

This is an aspect I very much dislikes. Same with Bending Origins.

[Reddish Mage]

Did you read my post where I described exactly why it is sloppy, confusing, and contradictory as written?
It's on the same page, I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote.

Of course I've been reading and responding to all your posts over the last pages. What I am saying is that your reading of Avatar is rooted in taking certain aspects of the mythology, reading it through a certain lens. What I am saying there is no reason to read "Avatar" this way, your reading makes to many leaps from the source material which never was so clear on what the Avatar was.

You can complain about Korra as lacking wisdom and spiritual authority appropriate for her era, especially on the "new" reading of the Avatar wisdom never being of the eternally valid variety in the first place. That's reading your ideas into the series. However I take issue in saying that the writing is muddled and presents a mixed message. There was never enough detail to confirm the "Legend" reading if that language from Superpanda is agreeable, at least not in enough detail that it actually contradicts the "Origin" reading.

Ultimately the message will be that Avatar's inherent heroism, bravery, and virtue is what the world really needs and what will save the world time and again. That is what makes the Avatar geat, not the Avatar's connection to her past lives.

[MLai]

Of course I've been reading and responding to all your posts over the last pages. What I am saying is that your reading of Avatar is rooted in taking certain aspects of the mythology, reading it through a certain lens.

No you still haven't read the relevant post of mine. I know because you haven't commented on it. I guess I'll have to repeat myself.

You say "Oh but MLai, your Legend interpretation of what the Avatar is, does not mean the show is muddled. It just means the show chose to use the Origin interpretation. YMMV on which you like better, but that doesn't mean the show muddles it." I refute the above through two lenses. One, the meta lens. Two, the technical lens.

The meta lens is as Superpanda described. ATLA led us to view the Avatar in one way (Legend). And the LOK comes along and stomps on that and gives us an alternative version (Original). This is narrative confusion. This never earns any friends from your audience unless "mindscrew" is the entire point of LOK, ala Sixth Sense (it certainly is not).

The technical lens... I have to repeat myself... We the viewers don't know whether the Avatar communicates with his past lives conversationally (with all the limitations of that method of communication) or through direct transferrence of memories/feelings. Because the writers themselves don't know, or don't think it's important to differentiate between. We see Roku conversing with Aang, but then we watch Roku's story with him as our proxy. Well, which is it? Is Roku telling Aang a story, or is Roku letting Aang live a segment of his life through memory? The difference is huge. One is an adult trying to teach a child why killing is necessary. The other is letting Aang walk in the other's shoes, complete with the other's feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, transcending the language barrier, the age barrier, and the cultural barrier.

And then repeat, with Aang + Korra. Are they just talking, or is Aang literally mind-melding with Korra? Which is it? We don't know. This is sloppy.

Ultimately the message will be that Avatar's inherent heroism, bravery, and virtue is what the world really needs and what will save the world time and again. That is what makes the Avatar geat, not the Avatar's connection to her past lives.

I. Don't. Care.

I care whether or not a show drives me up the wall in frustration. I don't care whether a fictional protagonist manages to be heroic in her fictional world. That's not an accomplishment; even Uwe Boll's characters are heroes in their own worlds.

[cobaltstarfire]

You don't know, but I've always read it quite clearly as the avatars each being their own individual being, who is able to tap into the memories and talk with past avatars. This understanding (for me anyway) hasn't changed at all going from AtLA to LoK, even with the tweaks/changes introduced by the origin story.


When Korra is talking to Aang, she's talking to Aang, I'm not confused at all by this.

[Reddish Mage]

The meta lens is as Superpanda described. ATLA led us to view the Avatar in one way (Legend). And the LOK comes along and stomps on that and gives us an alternative version (Original). This is narrative confusion. This never earns any friends from your audience unless "mindscrew" is the entire point of LOK, ala Sixth Sense (it certainly is not).

The technical lens... I have to repeat myself... We the viewers don't know whether the Avatar communicates with his past lives conversationally (with all the limitations of that method of communication) or through direct transferrence of memories/feelings. Because the writers themselves don't know, or don't think it's important to differentiate between. We see Roku conversing with Aang, but then we watch Roku's story with him as our proxy. Well, which is it? Is Roku telling Aang a story, or is Roku letting Aang live a segment of his life through memory? The difference is huge. One is an adult trying to teach a child why killing is necessary. The other is letting Aang walk in the other's shoes, complete with the other's feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, transcending the language barrier, the age barrier, and the cultural barrier.

And then repeat, with Aang + Korra. Are they just talking, or is Aang literally mind-melding with Korra? Which is it? We don't know. This is sloppy

In the meta-sense there is no reason why the Avatar cannot be someone with cosmic power, moral authority, and great wisdom, and even be in some sense "chosen" and still have the origins and weaknesses given in LOK season 2. What I'm saying is that the superlatives given by you and Superpanda (suggesting absolute moral authority, infallible wisdom, and infinite cosmic power) are no where implied in ATLA. The Avatar turns out to be a person with heroic virtues, a big heart and a soul fusion with a extremely powerful spirit of light and goodness. That's quite enough IMO to substantiate the legendary aspects actually given in the story. It was never implied the Avatar was a god.