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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Why the lightning storm?

    I believe it to be safe to say that the storm was caused by Thor. (Yes, it's not neccesarily certain, but I see no other reason for a storn to happen Juuuuuust inside Thor's territory) The question this raises is why did Thor send the storm to the party? Going about this logicaly, last time they were in Northern lands, this didn't happen. Therefore, something mustve happened in the time between leaving the Northern lands and returning again.
    While many things changed, only two of them seems to directly impact Thor. Two of the Snarl Gates being destroyed (by or due to, the Order Of The Stick) and The Dourkan Vampire affair. If it is due to the former, it must be that he has enough trust in the purely physical tomb that was erected at the location of the last gate (otherwise he would be glad to have high level PCs there, even if the odds of them breaking it are fifty fifty) which is quite unlikely, therefore it is likely because of the Latter. (The Dourkula affair)

    So Thor is aware that Dourkan is a vampire ( which I would.expect him to be) If he is aware of the undead state his cleric is in, why would he cause a storn to damage his vessel? (He focused on the engines when he attacked) We can deduce from this that he doesn't care about Dourkan so much as he hates hpop. (He didnt try to reveal Dorkula, only hinder his dmission by breaking the Mechance)

    Thor is hurting hpop because hpop's fmission is one that hurts his position. (Which we already knew) But still, out of all the ways he could hinder Dorkula, he chose to attack his mode of transportation rather than kill him or reveal the nature of vampirism. This opens a +5 cluster<retracted>. If Thor could've, he would've had Dorkula killed so as to completely destroy his chances of suceeding in his quest.

    Therefore, Thor feels he couldn't destroy Dorkula. But surely, the Oots united could bring him down. (They could stop by the hpot (high priest of thor) to rez him and it'd be all good) I believe Thor knows this,so there must be something preventing d from alerting the party. (Directly that is, the whole "the party is supposed to allerted by a storm" idea is a fail) What could prevent a god from talking to the party? Why, only a stronger god or a collection of gods. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to assume that, as part of the agreement between gods, gods can only appear to there own worshippers.

    So therefore, thors doesnt see a way to alert the party of Dorkula. Because of this, Thor can't kill Dorkula so he decides to slow his mission instead. But as astute readers will point out, Haily is a worshipper of Thor. It is possible that because of the... unorthodoxed way she joined the church, Thor is unaware of it. So a logical end ground for this bit is thors assistant Celestial notices Hailey Starshine on his clipboard and tells her about Dorkulla. (Just my 25 cents, personally, Id rather havr it be one of those things where one by one the party begins to distrust Dorkulla, the order of this happening would be. Belkar (this is, if he's not just trying to kill Dourkan for fun) then V (high intelligence, mightve remembered the last storm and Dourkans reaction to it) then Elan (Wait, there's no new bad guy in this story arc? IT MUST BE ONE OF US!!! Dun Dun Dun) Then Hailey either agrees with Elan or gets a message from Thor. Finally, Roy is persuaded by Hailey)

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Other than spelling multiple names wrong and I have no idea what HPoP is, only HPoH:

    He could just be doing that because he can't just not send storms because he wants to protect his clerics. I am fairly certain he isn't really allowed to directly interfere with HPoH. Though he could have sent the storm as a way to warn the party or hinder Durkula.
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck999 View Post
    Other than spelling multiple names wrong and I have no idea what HPoP is, only HPoH:
    High Priest of Persephone?
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    High Priest of Persephone?
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    High Priest of Persephone?
    But wasn't Persephone killed by the Snarl?
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    But wasn't Persephone killed by the Snarl?
    According to Shojo, yes. What's more important is that, regardless of Persephone's current status, almost no one knows who Persephone is, certainly no one who would become her High Priest. This reasoning also negates High Priest of Poseidon. Are there any other gods who have names beginning with "p"?
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Whenever people try to figure out Thor's actions based on the weather, I am reminded of how accurate Durkon was, and he's at least a semi-competent authority:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html
    Last edited by Deliverance; 2014-06-15 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    But wasn't Persephone killed by the Snarl?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    According to Shojo, yes.
    For all we know, she's not a part of eastern pantheon and doesn't exist in Stickverse.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    For all we know, she's not a part of eastern pantheon and doesn't exist in Stickverse.
    Hmm, I thought Shojo had mentioned her as one of the Eastern gods. Ah well, non-existence is an even worse case for someone worshipping her anyways.
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Are there any other gods who have names beginning with "p"?
    Pluto, who was almost, but not quite, the same as Hades. Think of him as Hades with a better press agent. Or perhaps Hades/Pluto was suffering from multiple personality disorder, with Hades the Evil personality and Pluto the Good one. Something like that.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Well, Hades isn't necessarily a bad guy. He gave Orpheus a deal that most mere mortals would consider more than fair. He's certainly no more wrathful or terrible than Zeus, or Hera, or Poseidon... or really, ninety percent of the Greek pantheon.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Pluto, who was almost, but not quite, the same as Hades. Think of him as Hades with a better press agent. Or perhaps Hades/Pluto was suffering from multiple personality disorder, with Hades the Evil personality and Pluto the Good one. Something like that.
    The problem with Pluto is that he suffers from the same issues as any other member of the Eastern Pantheon in that would most likely not have any worshippers. Also, there might not be any Roman gods in OOTS, just the Greek ones.
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD View Post
    Well, Hades isn't necessarily a bad guy. He gave Orpheus a deal that most mere mortals would consider more than fair. He's certainly no more wrathful or terrible than Zeus, or Hera, or Poseidon... or really, ninety percent of the Greek pantheon.
    Considering gods were supposed to know a lot about human nature, I'm pretty sure that deal was meant to put Orpheus even deeper into misery (I mean, why else would that 'Don't look back' clause even be included?).

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by strijder20 View Post
    Considering gods were supposed to know a lot about human nature, I'm pretty sure that deal was meant to put Orpheus even deeper into misery (I mean, why else would that 'Don't look back' clause even be included?).
    Because he can, the point is that he gave Orpheus an incredibly sweet deal for pretty much no cost as long as he followed the rules, but the deal is, Hades was an incredibly cool guy, almost any other greek god would shove a mortal aside, Hades was at very least willing to listen to the issue and wanted to see how he could help.

    Depending on how you interpretate the myths, it is also to understand that Hades was implied to be incredibly lonely, he HAD to stay in the underworld all the time to take care of everything because people just don't stop dying, he only had his wife around and even then she stayed in the surface for like half the year, so his willingness to help mortals could be from him simply wanting to talk with someone alive, and if they were brave enough to approach him, they had already proven themselves worth his time.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Hades originally never had been described as a bad person - the image as an evil god is a rather new one (WD is known for making neutral characters into evil villains).

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Well, that's because of a particular string I don't really like to pull because it may offend people, but... here I go...

    *slow, deep breathing for mental preparation*

    Hades is often painted as the villain because of the Catholic Church, if you pay attention to it, Hades, despite being a cool guy, shares a vital trait with Satan: They are both the lord of the underworld in their respective worlds, this association, coupled with the fact Caholicism greatly outdid Greek mythology, lead many people to misinterpretating Hades, there may be also something about Catholic emissaries making the connection themselves and spreading as such, but this entire subject is kinda stepping on eggs to me, religion as a whole is a subject I avoid because some people tend to get overzealous about it, so I am not fully going there.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Yeah, i think it's better to keep it informative - btw., thanks, i actually didn't know that little but interesting fact.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    According to Shojo, yes. What's more important is that, regardless of Persephone's current status, almost no one knows who Persephone is, certainly no one who would become her High Priest. This reasoning also negates High Priest of Poseidon. Are there any other gods who have names beginning with "p"?
    Pazuzu, the demon king of the southwest desert winds, drought and storms might even be part of the Western pantheon.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    "Why the lighting storm?"

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html

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    Last edited by multilis; 2014-06-16 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    But wasn't Persephone killed by the Snarl?
    Well, since the MitD is Athena, who obviously survived the Snarl, maybe Persephone did as well? sarcasm
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD View Post
    Well, Hades isn't necessarily a bad guy. He gave Orpheus a deal that most mere mortals would consider more than fair. He's certainly no more wrathful or terrible than Zeus, or Hera, or Poseidon... or really, ninety percent of the Greek pantheon.
    Hel may not have been a bad deity in the original myths...although what we know about Norse myth is considerably murkier than about Greek myths. Either way, OOTS isn't following the mythology all that closely.
    But in the myths, Hades was like the ultimate proponent of women's rights (among men)! He only kidnapped one girl one time (per year)! Compared to Apollo, Zeus, and Poseidon, Hades looked like a modern feminist
    Quote Originally Posted by Veya View Post
    Because he can, the point is that he gave Orpheus an incredibly sweet deal for pretty much no cost as long as he followed the rules, but the deal is, Hades was an incredibly cool guy, almost any other greek god would shove a mortal aside, Hades was at very least willing to listen to the issue and wanted to see how he could help.

    Depending on how you interpretate the myths, it is also to understand that Hades was implied to be incredibly lonely, he HAD to stay in the underworld all the time to take care of everything because people just don't stop dying, he only had his wife around and even then she stayed in the surface for like half the year, so his willingness to help mortals could be from him simply wanting to talk with someone alive, and if they were brave enough to approach him, they had already proven themselves worth his time.
    There are also stories in which at least some of the gods can see into the future. Maybe Hades knew Orpheus would look back?
    Although in that case, it does seem uncharicteristically cruel of Hades to raise up Orpheus' hopes only to knock them down. That's the kind of passive-aggression I'd expect from Hera, or maybe Poseidon. Not Hades.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
    Pazuzu, the demon king of the southwest desert winds, drought and storms might even be part of the Western pantheon.
    I did not know about this guy. Thanks for the information! However, since we already seem to have a storm god with Adad, I don't know how likely it is that he exists in OOTS.

    With regards to the discussion on Hades, keep in mind that we aren't supposed to discuss real world religion in here. I don't know whether or not that makes talking about the gods that might exist in OOTS okay.
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck999 View Post
    Other than spelling multiple names wrong and I have no idea what HPoP is, only HPoH:
    Clearly, Pig has decided to separate from the rest of the twelve gods and form his own following.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Also, there might not be any Roman gods in OOTS, just the Greek ones.
    Pluto wasn't the Roman equivalent of Hades; they were both Greek names for basically the same god. However, the Greek form of the name was Plouton; Pluto was a Latinization of that name. But they were still essentially the same god. Both were married to Persephone and were rulers of the underworld where the dead went. Pluto just had a somewhat more positive image than Hades. My characterization fo them as Good and Evil was perhaps a bit of literary license.
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Pluto wasn't the Roman equivalent of Hades; they were both Greek names for basically the same god. However, the Greek form of the name was Plouton; Pluto was a Latinization of that name. But they were still essentially the same god. Both were married to Persephone and were rulers of the underworld where the dead went. Pluto just had a somewhat more positive image than Hades. My characterization fo them as Good and Evil was perhaps a bit of literary license.
    There does seem to be a popular misconception that Pluto was just the Roman name for Hades, and that the Greek's didn't use Pluto. I'm not sure where it came from....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If Orcus was a nesting doll, that would certainly make the whole thing work smoother. When you cast a level 1 summoning spell, you summon the little Orcus from the middle, but when you cast Gate, you get the really big Orcus that holds all the small Orcuses.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Pluto wasn't the Roman equivalent of Hades; they were both Greek names for basically the same god. However, the Greek form of the name was Plouton; Pluto was a Latinization of that name. But they were still essentially the same god. Both were married to Persephone and were rulers of the underworld where the dead went. Pluto just had a somewhat more positive image than Hades. My characterization fo them as Good and Evil was perhaps a bit of literary license.
    I apologize; I was only aware of the Roman god Pluto and not that it was just a Latin name for an already existing Greek god besides Hades. My knowledge of Greek mythology (and most mythologies in general) is pretty poor, which is why I am asking so many of these questions.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veya View Post
    Because he can, the point is that he gave Orpheus an incredibly sweet deal for pretty much no cost as long as he followed the rules, but the deal is, Hades was an incredibly cool guy, almost any other greek god would shove a mortal aside, Hades was at very least willing to listen to the issue and wanted to see how he could help.

    Depending on how you interpretate the myths, it is also to understand that Hades was implied to be incredibly lonely, he HAD to stay in the underworld all the time to take care of everything because people just don't stop dying, he only had his wife around and even then she stayed in the surface for like half the year, so his willingness to help mortals could be from him simply wanting to talk with someone alive, and if they were brave enough to approach him, they had already proven themselves worth his time.
    Agreed, the deal is nice 'an sich', but knowing the result it only made things worse for Orpheus. It's kind of the 'poisoned apple' trope, which seems nice but really doesn't turn out for the best - even if it's Orpheus own fault. My point is that if Hades truly had wanted to help Orpheus, he wouldn't have included the 'Don't look back clause'. He may even have known that Orpheus would fail to not look back, making the deal atrocious from the start (stacking Orpheus' grief for his wife's death with guilt for failing to retrieve her) although that's arguable.

    And yes, he is willing to listen to Orpheus, but don't forget that it was Orpheus' music that convinced Hades, not his gentle disposition against mortals. Another Greek god may very well have listened to Orpheus because of his divine ability to charm with his music; and the other gods really weren't that reluctant to deal with mortals, which Zeus' numerous romances with human females prove.

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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Actually it's not that easy - Hades can not just release death people from the underworld, there are rules for such things. And just proving one's trust in a god to earn the benefit of a wonder is not really that uncommon.

    And i would not take Zeus seducing any mortal women he fancied as a proof of his well-meaning towards mortals (he punished Prometheus severely for bringing us the fire, remember?)

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the lightning storm?

    Zeus also had a tendency to screw over (both figuratively and literally) any mortal that struck his fancy. Thing usually didn't end well for the girl in those stories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If Orcus was a nesting doll, that would certainly make the whole thing work smoother. When you cast a level 1 summoning spell, you summon the little Orcus from the middle, but when you cast Gate, you get the really big Orcus that holds all the small Orcuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Zeus also had a tendency to screw over (both figuratively and literally) any mortal that struck his fancy. Thing usually didn't end well for the girl in those stories.
    Now - that was so completely not Zeus' fault. If Hera wasn't that insanely jealous, there would have been no problems... ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    I apologize; I was only aware of the Roman god Pluto and not that it was just a Latin name for an already existing Greek god besides Hades. My knowledge of Greek mythology (and most mythologies in general) is pretty poor, which is why I am asking so many of these questions.
    Neither god can be considered to be "good", by any modern moral code at least. Both Pluto and Hades abducted Persephone to be their queen in the underworld. Which is the nicest way of saying that they kidnapped and raped her, and then forced her into marriage. She is only free to leave because she only ate a few pomegranate seeds. Had she eaten much more she would have been stuck in the underworld all year long. And since she brings the spring and the growth of vegetation that would have meant the end of all life on Earth.

    However, we need only concern ourselves with Hades at this time. Pluto was slain by the god Tyson, who, sitting atop Mount Hayden, used his powers of reclassification to remove his entire realm from being a domain of gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by pseudom View Post
    Therefore, Thor feels he couldn't destroy Dorkula.
    This seems to be a safe bet. While the HPoH only mentioned that the gods agreed to allow the clerics of other gods to use even those spells which are directly concerned with their spheres of influence, it isn't much of a stretch to conclude that openly killing clerics of the other gods might either break the agreement or at least open up the possibility of retaliation. And that retaliation of this kind could quickly escalate into a rather nasty bout of clerics being killed all across the world. Which, whether it's directly covered by the agreement or not, isn't in any of the gods best interests.
    Last edited by Stella; 2014-06-20 at 08:58 PM.
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