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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    My main issue is a class one. I am from a small town whereas much of my college is from rich areas. They still haven't learned how to put action behind words and are too focused on making everyone comfortable. I was raised to speak the truth as I see it and not sugar-coat things. So personalities clash type of thing.
    That is an important issue. Sometimes, there is too much theory and not enough action. And the theory is rarely accessible to laymen.

    (Two weeks after I created said trans* group, we had started a petition. Within a month, I had met the vice-rectorship and ombudsperson. I guess I'm into action, haha.)
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Okay, question from a straight guy. Might sound a little weird, but I really am curious about this. I want to know just for the sake of knowing.

    When it comes to physical qualities that are attractive, I know what straight guys look for in women. I know what gay guys look for in other guys through my brother.

    But what about the rest of the spectrum? Do lesbian women also stare at boobs? Do MtF people check out abs?
    Last edited by KerfuffleMach2; 2014-06-18 at 01:12 AM.

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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Okay, question from a straight guy. Might sound a little weird, but I really am curious about this. I want to know just for the sake of knowing.

    When it comes to physical qualities that are attractive, I know what straight guys look for in women. I know what gay guys look for in other guys through my brother.

    But what about the rest of the spectrum? Do lesbian women also stare at boobs? Do FtM people check out abs?
    Well, everyone, straight or not, may look at different things. But I don't expect orientation changes much.

    Personnally, I find the voice very important.
    Last edited by Miriel; 2014-06-18 at 01:10 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enrico Dandolo View Post
    Well, everyone, straight or not, may look at different things. But I don't expect orientation changes much.

    Personnally, I find the voice very important.
    Well, I realize that the tastes of an individual will vary. But, there still should be a general idea of what each group looks at. At least, I would think there would be. I know there is for straight people.

    And, forgot to mention it, but I know what straight women generally look for in guys as well, because my mom likes to comment on such things. Mostly while talking about George Clooney.

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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Okay, question from a straight guy. Might sound a little weird, but I really am curious about this. I want to know just for the sake of knowing.

    When it comes to physical qualities that are attractive, I know what straight guys look for in women. I know what gay guys look for in other guys through my brother.

    But what about the rest of the spectrum? Do lesbian women also stare at boobs? Do MtF people check out abs?
    So from conversations with my group of friends we came to a conclusion. Everyone stares at boobs. Straight, gay, male, female, and everything inbetween and not included. Though my one friend (gay guy) basically summed it up as "They look damn uncomfortable" to which all the females at the table heartily agreed.

    As for me, as an asexual I still look at how peoples bodies look, I am still shallow. But I also focus on the shape of the face (It can ruin the whole image) and their hands. More about how they hold and what they do with their hands.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    So from conversations with my group of friends we came to a conclusion. Everyone stares at boobs. Straight, gay, male, female, and everything inbetween and not included. Though my one friend (gay guy) basically summed it up as "They look damn uncomfortable" to which all the females at the table heartily agreed.
    My gay brother has also admitted to loving boobs. For use as pillows.

    From what I've heard, they're quite comfortable.

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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Well, I realize that the tastes of an individual will vary. But, there still should be a general idea of what each group looks at. At least, I would think there would be. I know there is for straight people.
    Would there be, though? I think people, even if sectored off into different orientations, would have preferences much too diverse to be tied down to a general idea that isn't too general (ie 'straight males tend to be attracted to females').

    I know for my own part, as far as physical appearance goes, I like physically fit people. It's really not a sexual thing so much as just an aesthetic thing, I suppose-- I like looking at well-built physiques. So I guess, taking into account Athedia's own observations, I may well be the only person who prefers staring at a pair of strong-built pecs over a pair of boobs :v
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    My gay brother has also admitted to loving boobs. For use as pillows.

    From what I've heard, they're quite comfortable.
    For other people maybe... Once puberty hit I lost all ability to lie comfortably on my front.

    EDIT: Oh Comrade I do agree. Something about people with greek statue physiques is so nice.
    Last edited by Athedia; 2014-06-18 at 01:26 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    Would there be, though? I think people, even if sectored off into different orientations, would have preferences much too diverse to be tied down to a general idea that isn't too general (ie 'straight males tend to be attracted to females').

    I know for my own part, as far as physical appearance goes, I like physically fit people. It's really not a sexual thing so much as just an aesthetic thing, I suppose-- I like looking at well-built physiques. So I guess, taking into account Athedia's own observations, I may well be the only person who prefers staring at a pair of strong-built pecs over a pair of boobs :v
    Right...but do you still look at the chest? Sure, you may not prefer a big chest, but you still check out the boobs.

    That's kind of what I'm trying to ask. Do non straight people still check out the same areas as straight people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    For other people maybe... Once puberty hit I lost all ability to lie comfortably on my front.

    EDIT: Oh Comrade I do agree. Something about people with greek statue physiques is so nice.
    Well, I meant more for other people using them as pillows. It's comfortable for those people, apparently.

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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    But I also focus on the shape of the face (It can ruin the whole image).
    This for me as well(mtf, bi).
    In particular I tend to like triangular chins over round or square ones.
    Last edited by Togath; 2014-06-18 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Mmm, the thing about that is that "it" not only carries connotations of inanimate objects but when it's used for people has almost exclusively been a slur for trans people, cross-dressers, and drag performers.
    That... Is not a bad point. *Doesn't change her mind, though*

    I can see why it might hold some appeal to people, but there's a difference between reclaiming a slur and making other people reclaim it for you, though I'm not sure how you'd reclaim a pronoun that way except for always speaking in third person.
    You could do it while reclaiming speaking in third person - I haven't seen a single character that was supposed to be taken seriously in fiction that spoke entirely in that manner, so I'm pretty sure there's a stereotype about it being silly and unnecessarily complicated or something.

    And you don't sound judge-y at all. If anything the guy who refuses to use a simple two-letter word to refer to people is the judgmental one
    Hm hm. I do see where you're coming from, I'm just focusing more on it being a pronoun than on people using it dismissively (in this case - I don't hesitate to tell said people off over that ).


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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Right...but do you still look at the chest? Sure, you may not prefer a big chest, but you still check out the boobs.

    That's kind of what I'm trying to ask. Do non straight people still check out the same areas as straight people?
    I think the areas that are checked out are pretty universal. Sure some people might not focus as much on them, but I think everyone notices.

    Well, I meant more for other people using them as pillows. It's comfortable for those people, apparently.
    Well that is true. They are very comfortable pillows.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Right...but do you still look at the chest? Sure, you may not prefer a big chest, but you still check out the boobs.
    I guess you could say so, though I suppose it's like listening to a song and singling out the bass rather than the guitars. I'm not sure that analogy actually makes much sense, but if I'm looking at the chest of someone with a well built physique, I'm not thinking 'Oooh, boobs!' I'm probably thinking 'Oooh, pecs!'
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    I think the areas that are checked out are pretty universal. Sure some people might not focus as much on them, but I think everyone notices.
    That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Better to ask and actually be sure.

    Well that is true. They are very comfortable pillows.
    Gonna have to find out some day.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    I think the areas that are checked out are pretty universal. Sure some people might not focus as much on them, but I think everyone notices.
    Breasts: If they're there, they're hard to miss.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Okay, question from a straight guy. Might sound a little weird, but I really am curious about this. I want to know just for the sake of knowing.

    When it comes to physical qualities that are attractive, I know what straight guys look for in women. I know what gay guys look for in other guys through my brother.

    But what about the rest of the spectrum? Do lesbian women also stare at boobs? Do MtF people check out abs?
    Well, in conversation with other straight guys, they and I do seem to like similar things about the ladies. You know, hips/waist/thighs, breasts and whatnot. For me also, nice face, well-kept hair, bright eyes and a good sense of style. Of course, also can hold a conversation well enough.

    I never thought of this question really...
    I go by they/them/their or he/him/his pronouns

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athedia View Post
    So from conversations with my group of friends we came to a conclusion. Everyone stares at boobs. Straight, gay, male, female, and everything inbetween and not included. Though my one friend (gay guy) basically summed it up as "They look damn uncomfortable" to which all the females at the table heartily agreed.

    As for me, as an asexual I still look at how peoples bodies look, I am still shallow. But I also focus on the shape of the face (It can ruin the whole image) and their hands. More about how they hold and what they do with their hands.
    There was a study that showed that even exclusively heterosexual women in the US (I think?) are aroused by female breasts. It's hypothesised that this is due to the ridiculously exaggerated cultural breast fetish/taboo we have going on. But then you have other cultures where the female breast is not such a hugely fetishized taboo where even heterosexual men aren't necessarily interested in breasts, the same way some men here like legs or eyes or whatever and some don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    Would there be, though? I think people, even if sectored off into different orientations, would have preferences much too diverse to be tied down to a general idea that isn't too general (ie 'straight males tend to be attracted to females').
    Aw man. You said the thing I was going to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    Right...but do you still look at the chest? Sure, you may not prefer a big chest, but you still check out the boobs.

    That's kind of what I'm trying to ask. Do non straight people still check out the same areas as straight people?
    When I see a new person I tend to just glance over their entire body and get a feel for their appearance. Then I mostly just focus on the face because I was taught that humans make eye contact during conversation.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Kind of weird. "They" works perfectly well as a gender-neutral personal pronoun. "It" is a gender-neutral inanimate pronoun, so it feels weird to apply it to a person.
    I actually get more offended when people trot out the "It is for objects, not for people," line. "It" is a perfectly functional gender neutral pronoun, which is largely used for objects because lots of objects and not very many people are gender-neutral. That doesn't mean it's solely for the use of objects.

    "They" is largely used when you don't know what gender someone is. It's fine to use it for me as a whole, the genderfluid person, because you don't know what gender I am. But when you're talking about me, the gender-neutral person, you do know - I just don't have one. It seems kinda insulting to use the "I don't know" terminology on people of nonbinary genders.

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    Well, to be fair there are people who use they as their preferred pronouns, one of my friends does for example, but yeah, using they over someone's preferred pronouns when you know them isn't really cool.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycemonde View Post
    At least he isn't in the other thread anymore.
    Shame this one got off to a bad start, though.
    Yeah, isn't it horrible when someone asks a question and, rather than getting an answer, gets insulted?

    Just to make it clear what I mean, here is how that argument looked to someone outside it...

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    Kel: Asks question
    Others: That's a stupid question
    Kel: Why is that stupid?
    Others: If you knew what you were talking about, you never would have asked.
    Kel: But I don't know. That's why I asked.
    Others: If you hadn't asked a stupid question, we would have answered.
    Kel: Why is it a stupid question?
    Others: Because it is! Can't you see that?
    Kel: No, I don't. Could someone please explain why my question was stupid?
    Others: NO! Because your question was too stupid to answer
    Kel: But why?
    Someone (sorry, can't remember who): Answers question
    Kel: Ah, that makes sense now. Thank you.


    This thread is intended for the asking and answering of questions. Some questions are hard, and some do sound stupid to people who already know the answers. But to an outsider, the questions are very real. Next time someone comes in with a question, if they find a two-page argument where the questioner is insulted, do you really think the new person will ask? Or will that insult-fest scare them off, still in ignorance?

    I guess what I am saying is "if you don't want to deal with questions, this isn't the thread for you." Yes, there's a lot of ignorance out there. But the only way to correct that ignorance is with education. Shaming people isn't education. I would think the people in this thread would understand the effects of shaming and not use that tactic on others.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    I strongly second Kesnit.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachu View Post
    You could do it while reclaiming speaking in third person - I haven't seen a single character that was supposed to be taken seriously in fiction that spoke entirely in that manner, so I'm pretty sure there's a stereotype about it being silly and unnecessarily complicated or something.
    Shale? It's been a while but I seem to remember it being the straight-man of the group, especially opposite Zevran.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycemonde View Post
    At least he isn't in the other thread anymore.
    Shame this one got off to a bad start, though.
    Anyway, while people are being added to the OP, I could probably answer a few questions about trans stuff and nonbinary stuff. Nothing in a super official sense (just speaking from personal experience) and I'm pretty blunt at times, but if nobody else is available at the time I could give it a shot.
    So after calling me an ******* publicly in the other "support" thread , you come here just to spit some more hatred and contempt at me as well?

    What are you trying to prove with this behaviour, exactly? That if someone dares to ask difficult questions and to discuss his point of view he should be slandered and insulted? For someone that is accusing me of basically polluting threads with just my presence you sure don't seem to be setting up a good example.

    I don't care if SiuiS takes every occasion to paint me under a negative light and misrepresent me and I don't care if you write posts that are half made of asterisks just because you can't voice your opinion politely (or directly at me for that matter), but if you think that acting like this is justified or that somehow it makes you better than me you both need a serious reality check.
    You are nothing but bullies, unable to confront yourselves with me on even ground, so you attack my credibility and my dignity with snarky remarks and insults.
    I may be indelicate, I may be blunt and it can take a while for me to understand a different point of view but at least I try, I listen and I learn.
    And at least I don't stoop down to your level.

    If you have such a big problem with me, just add me to the ignore list. I guarantee you, this will be better for everyone involved, expecially for the other users which I would imagine don't give a damn about how much you despise me.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Hey, Jaycemonde, I'll have to second Kesnit, and also ask why you've come to post here to complain about people's ignorance when the very reason I posted this thread (as reminded in the title and OP) is to educate people who want to know more, without upsetting those coming to the support thread for support.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Re. "it": I would be very uncomfortable with it, and would discuss the option of using "they" instead. If they really felt strongly about being referred to as "it", I would probably end up trying to avoid pronouns all together, and I'd expect a fair bit of understanding if I slipped up.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Re. "it": I would be very uncomfortable with it, and would discuss the option of using "they" instead. If they really felt strongly about being referred to as "it", I would probably end up trying to avoid pronouns all together, and I'd expect a fair bit of understanding if I slipped up.
    Why? Does it really offend your sensitivities to call someone by their preferred pronouns?

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Why? Does it really offend your sensitivities to call someone by their preferred pronouns?
    The "it" pronoun is not used for people, or at least, not people whose existence is considered valid. When referring to someone, it's universally used as a dehumanizing slur. Since it is a pronoun, i.e. the kind of word that doesn't evolve that much, reclaiming it is much more problematic than reclaiming other slurs like "queer" or "dyke" or the n-word or whatever, which are nouns or adjectives. Besides, there are better alternative.
    Last edited by Miriel; 2014-06-18 at 08:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Why? Does it really offend your sensitivities to call someone by their preferred pronouns?
    No, it offends my sensitivities to call someone something that decades (at least) of cultural mores and language evolution has determined to be a bad thing to call human beings. If someone tells me they would prefer that I refer to them as "bitch", it might technically be "better" to acquiesce to their wishes and refer to them as they prefer, but that's a whole lot of cultural conditioning to overcome, as well as judgement from people who aren't aware that the person in question prefers to be called something generally considered insulting. Just because someone wants to be called something, and we philosophically believe that should be acquiesced to, that doesn't magically sweep aside one's discomfort, and nor does it spontaneously overcome current usage of the English language.
    Last edited by Serpentine; 2014-06-18 at 08:32 AM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by KerfuffleMach2 View Post
    My gay brother has also admitted to loving boobs. For use as pillows.

    From what I've heard, they're quite comfortable.
    One of my exes was unusually endowed, and I can confirm that yes, they are quite comfortable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rain Dragon View Post
    Well, in conversation with other straight guys, they and I do seem to like similar things about the ladies. You know, hips/waist/thighs, breasts and whatnot. For me also, nice face, well-kept hair, bright eyes and a good sense of style. Of course, also can hold a conversation well enough.

    I never thought of this question really...
    On the the surface, when I look at a woman, those physical attributes, hips/waist/thighs/etc, stand out to me and that is what I look at first. However that would fall under the "eye candy" attraction part. If I am seriously attracted to someone, then I look for much more than that. I look at their eyes and see the details in them, I see what their laugh is like, I like to look for the "little things" they do, if they have freckles (because they are utterly adorable to me). Personality also plays a big role in my attraction to someone. If she is "hot", but has the intelligence of a gnat....then no way Jose.

    On the other hand, I can also appreciate a fine male figure as well. I am not attracted to them, but I can definitely tell when a man looks good. Growing up around scores of homosexual men tends to free of you of stupid things like being embarrassed about being able to say, "Hey, that is a good looking dude."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I actually get more offended when people trot out the "It is for objects, not for people," line. "It" is a perfectly functional gender neutral pronoun, which is largely used for objects because lots of objects and not very many people are gender-neutral. That doesn't mean it's solely for the use of objects.

    "They" is largely used when you don't know what gender someone is. It's fine to use it for me as a whole, the genderfluid person, because you don't know what gender I am. But when you're talking about me, the gender-neutral person, you do know - I just don't have one. It seems kinda insulting to use the "I don't know" terminology on people of nonbinary genders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Why? Does it really offend your sensitivities to call someone by their preferred pronouns?
    I half agree with you Jor, and I half agree with everyone else.

    Historically "it" was used, at least here in America and I'd imagine in most parts of the world where this happened, to refer to slaves. Slaves were not people, they were things, objects for sale to use how you see fit. So that mindset has carried over with us through the ages.

    I admit, I would be highly uncomfortable if someone asked me to use "it" as pronoun for them. BUT, that is my own insecurity, and I would do my best to go with their wishes. However, they also need to know "it's" history and realize that a lot of people are going to be uncomfortable calling a person, "it." And it may take some time for those people to get used to it, and some of them might never get used to it.

    The person using the pronoun needs an open mind, but the person asking to be called that pronoun needs one as well. And both parties need patience for the other.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enrico Dandolo View Post
    Besides, there are better alternative.
    They implies you don't know the person's gender; made-up words such as ze or hir imply a made-up concept of gender neutrality. "It" is still a perfectly viable gender-neutral term. That does mean that it's commonly used for objects, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used as a pronoun for humans.

    Contrast VIKI (from I, Robot). VIKI is undeniably an object. She's not intelligent in the conventional sense, and doesn't really have the empathy level required to be a person in the conventional sense ("My logic is undeniable!"). She's an object, albeit a very large and not very physical one. But she's an object. She's also a she. The two are not mutually exclusive. Something can have gendered pronouns (also ships, but they're a bad example as they're not actually perceived as female by anyone). Someone can have genderless pronouns.

    Just because you think that other pronouns are "Better" doesn't stop me being an it, and doesn't stop other people having a social obligation to call me that, just as they have an obligation to call everyone else by their preferred pronouns.

    It's not about "Reclaiming" it. It's about it making sense.

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