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2014-06-18, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
I don't understand the strawman thing. Sorry
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2014-06-18, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Keystone of the USA
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
We aren't dog-piling. You asked if we would be uncomfortable and we said yes and gave reasons. Then we started getting a lecture on how being uncomfortable is a part of life. I think we all understand it is a part of life, that was never the question. But one of my mentors once taught me a lesson, "Never ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to all answers."
I respect that you have a different opinion. I may not share it but opinions are personal so who am I to judge yours. All I ask in return is for you to respect my opinion and those of other posters. I think I was the main person saying I wouldn't use pronouns. But that isn't just toward the pronoun "it", it goes goes for all pronouns in reference to other people. It isn't spiteful, it is compromise. It is a first step on the way toward them getting used to your pronoun.
In other words, don't force us into the deep end while we are learning to swim. Let us get used to the water and holding our breath and while it may take time and work on both our parts we can eventually swim there.Moved my stuff over to HERE!
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2014-06-18, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-06-18, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Tsk. Nope. Wikipedia to the rescue.
The fallacy:
"If P, then Q.
Not P.
Therefore, not Q."
My argument:
"In the English language, only objects, etc., are referred to by 'it'
You are not an object.
Therefore, you are not referred to by 'it' in the English language."
It's something like
"Only A is B.
C is not A.
Therefore, C is not B."
Which is, AFAIK, a valid syllogism.
That's social, not linguistic change.Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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2014-06-18, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
It is extremely unlikely that I could successfully completely avoid using it (and that was perhaps an unfortunate inclusion in my original post), and where I could not avoid it, I would try to use your preferred "it", but considering, again, all that background, I would expect understanding in turn if I sometimes got it wrong.
That is unfortunate. I am not inclined to alter my stance as a consequence, but if I were discussing this with one of my friends whom I might actually refer to in the third person to others, it is likely that... well, the above would be the result, as I got used to using the word outside of the oft-repeated connotations and abuse.
edit: *thumbsup*
I listed a number of people who expressed that opinion, or something similar, before me. I imagine you're fixating on me because I did it on the page you happened to view first, but I'm not actually the only one, nor the first.
There is no war, unless it is of your own making.Last edited by Serpentine; 2014-06-18 at 10:52 AM.
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2014-06-18, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Keystone of the USA
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Moved my stuff over to HERE!
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2014-06-18, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
"If it is a lamp, use "It"
You are not a lamp.
Therefore do not use "It""
Is an invalid syllogism.
Yeah, well I am part of society, even if you'd rather I wasn't. Get used to it.
So you are not, in fact, prepared to use my preferred pronouns? So I'm right? Yay, bring out the confetti and fanfares; we're done here.
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2014-06-18, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
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2014-06-18, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-06-18, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
You are misrepresenting the stance you will not succeed in altering here. As I've said a number of times, I would prefer to make it a moot point in my sentence structure. Where it was unavoidable or too unnatural, and as I got used to it, I am fully prepared to use them, but for the most part at least to start it would feel incredibly uncomfortable, unintuitive and unfriendly, so I would expect understanding when I (ACCIDENTALLY) got it wrong.
Last edited by Serpentine; 2014-06-18 at 10:56 AM.
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2014-06-18, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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2014-06-18, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Keystone of the USA
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Moved my stuff over to HERE!
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2014-06-18, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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2014-06-18, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
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2014-06-18, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
You know what? I give up. Between everyone taking me literally when I say "War" just so they have something else to crap on me from a great height about, to everyone deciding that they are going to avoid using any pronouns at all just because I use one they don't like, I quit. I don't care. Because anyone who disrespects my right to be called what I want, even if they don't call me anything else, is no longer worth my time.
If you're not even going to do me that courtesy, I don't feel the need to listen to what you say. It's insulting, it's offensive, and although you have the right to call me what you want, I don't have the duty to listen to you insulting me. So have fun.
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2014-06-18, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
"if you are LGBT+ but do not wish to educate people, or are likely to be offended by the lack of knowledge of some people, you're probably better off not reading this thread."
... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2014-06-18, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
See, that's why I'm going. I was trying to educate people that I do actually have the same rights as them, but you know what? It's not just offensive lack of knowledge, it's offensive deliberate insults. I'm giving up, unless someone is actually willing to debate like a civil individual.
Any takers?
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2014-06-18, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Keystone of the USA
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Q: So stupid question but my brother asked me to explain the difference between bi and pan yesterday and I did my best but I was wondering if people could clarify?
Moved my stuff over to HERE!
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2014-06-18, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
I'm not sure how I can better explain that I wasn't saying or doing that...
Oh well. Question asked, answer given, debate course run.
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2014-06-18, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
This is one which has been the subject of much argument. The main two ideas are "Bi means only girls or guys, pan means everything" and "Bi means that guys are guy-attractive, and girls are girl-attractive, pan means that gender is irrelevant when considering partners." Take your pick.
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2014-06-18, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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2014-06-18, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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2014-06-18, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Placing this seperately from my question. This is a discussion not a debate thread. We never said you don't have the same rights, we just asked that ours were not ignored in favor of you. There were not deliberate insults, maybe some poorly worded posts on both sides that raised tensions. There was never a question about rights, there was a question of whether we felt comfortable.
You have a right to many things, but not one to regulate the speech of others. Just as I can't order my religious friends not to pray for me because it makes me uncomfortable, you can not decide how my private conversations are dictated. All we can do is request that our preferences are remembered and respected, but we can't enforce anything.Moved my stuff over to HERE!
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2014-06-18, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Hoooo boy. You picked a doozy there.
Spoiler: My personal opinion - likely to be disputed"Bisexual" people are interested in men and women, and/or not just one sex or gender. This may or may not include cis people, trans people, genderqueer, agender and all the various other combinations and categories.
"Pansexual" is a more accurate synonym for "bisexual". It explicitly acknowledges that gender is not a binary, and that the person's range of attraction potentially includes the full scope of the sex and gender spectrum(s).
Sexuality refers to the people you're attracted to, not the reason why you're attracted to them - that's a different set of categories. In practice, pansexual and bisexual encompasses the same subset (or superset) of people, and so are functionally equivalent (except, I suppose, in the case of a bisexual who explicitly excludes non-binary people from their subset).The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2014-06-18, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
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2014-06-18, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
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2014-06-18, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
But see, I find "They" and "Ze" to be degrading, moreso than it (Which I do not, truth be told, find at all degrading). That's just my personal opinion, sure, but given that the required level of effort to acquiesce to my wishes is precisely zero (or less - "they" miiight have a slightly longer vowel sound than "It", but that's not the point) it seems nonsensical that they should object to it.
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2014-06-18, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
Can I ask an honest question? No attack is intended here, I am genuinely interested in your answer. If you had a friend who asked you to refer to them as "c**t", what would your response be?
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2014-06-18, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2014-06-18, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- France
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions, Information and Discussion thread!
On asexuals being in the closet: absolutely, it can happen. I suspect that there are more male asexuals in the closet than female ones, considering guys are pretty much always expected to at least attempt to get laid. Female asexuality is at least somewhat acknowledged and not so widely considered to be abnormal (though criticized and usually called "frigidity").
On bi vs. pan: one needs to keep in mind that the term "bisexuality" was coined first, and was invented at a time when there was believed to be only two genders. Therefore, back then, it did functionally mean "attracted to all genders". Now more people are aware there are more genders out there than male and female, pansexuality has turned out to be etymologically more correct.
There is theoretically a case to be made for bi vs. pan in the case of a person who's attracted to two genders, but not the most common ones (for example, someone who's attracted to agender and genderfluid people); that'd etymologically make them bisexual, not pansexual. I've yet to encounter such a case, though, and the fact terms like "trisexual" or "quadrisexual" haven't caught on anywhere that I know of may hint it's not much of a thing.
(I personally think the two are identical in meaning, but favor "bisexual" because it's more widely understood than "pansexual". My boyfriend, for the record, labels himself as bisexual, but considering his stance on gender, it's probably identical in meaning to those here who label themselves as pansexual.)Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs