Shadow-Sun-Ninja and ToB questions

[HammeredWharf]

Snap Kick deals normal damage, because the ability is an attack. It doesn't turn your attacks into ones that deal negative energy damage.

[Chronos]

It never even occurred to me that someone might think SSN would require three maneuvers, as nothing in the requirements suggests that. There are three requirements, sure, but those three requirements can be met with only two maneuvers. In fact, the way the requirements are set up, it's not just possible but trivial to do so. If you have one first-level Setting Sun maneuver and one second-level Shadow Hand maneuver, which requirement do you not meet?

[Millennium]

I disagree. The grammar is clear and unambiguous: three items in a clearly-marked list means three maneuvers. There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

[HammeredWharf]

There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

There are plenty of simple grammatical options that could have applied if the first item was meant not to modify the other two, and none of them were used.

I understand viewing it as a "shopping list". If you tell someone to go to a shop and buy half a liter of water and a liter of coke, they can't just buy a liter of coke because it also contains a liter of water and pretend they completed the task. However, that's RAI. You assume the writer made a shopping list. If you assume absolutely nothing and view the requirement as a simple, logical statement, two maneuvers fulfill it as I proved earlier.

[Immabozo]

How does Touch of the Shadow Sun interact with Snap Kick? Is the first attack a touch attack for negative damage and then the snap kick is normal damage, or are they both negative?

I dont think it works. You are not making an attack, it is a standard action to use Touch of the Shadow Sun. You could use snap kick no better or worse than if you were casting a spell

[Chronos]

Quoth HammeredWharf:

I understand viewing it as a "shopping list". If you tell someone to go to a shop and buy half a liter of water and a liter of coke, they can't just buy a liter of coke because it also contains a liter of water and pretend they completed the task. However, that's RAI. You assume the writer made a shopping list. If you assume absolutely nothing and view the requirement as a simple, logical statement, two maneuvers fulfill it as I proved earlier.

I'm not sure that's really the right analogy. If I gave someone a shopping list that just said "1 liter of water", and they brought back a 2-liter bottle of Coke, I wouldn't be happy. But if we just had only the requirement of "one Shadow Hand maneuver", and someone had a second-level SH maneuver, we'd all agree that the requirement was met.

[nedz]

I think it's a list of three things too, but it's obviously badly written and so I'm adding this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread — since a house rule is required.

[justiceforall]

I dont think it works. You are not making an attack, it is a standard action to use Touch of the Shadow Sun. You could use snap kick no better or worse than if you were casting a spell

From the ability:

"With a melee touch attack made as a standard action"

That looks like an attack to me.

However, from snap kick:

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

I guess the tricky wording here is melee weapons?

[Immabozo]

From the ability:

"With a melee touch attack made as a standard action"

That looks like an attack to me.

However, from snap kick:

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

I guess the tricky wording here is melee weapons?

Sounds like you are delivering a touch attack spell, actually. It is a standard action, make a touch attack to deliver the negative energy. It is not at all a part of an attack.

Now, on the other hand, if your interpretation was correct, the class would be godly. you and any friendly within arms length would never go down if optimized properly

[justiceforall]

Now, on the other hand, if your interpretation was correct, the class would be godly. you and any friendly within arms length would never go down if optimized properly

I'd probably interpret the touch of the shadow sun as not working on the second attack as the ability pretty much spells out that it works on that particular melee touch - snap kick would just generate another punch to the face.

Regardless the wording in touch of the shadow sun, specifically "In the round after you use this ability" and "You cannot use both aspects of this ability on the same round, nor can you use the negative energy touch again in a round after you have already successfully used it" seems to expressly prevent ridiculous abuse of this ability anyway. Godly? I can't see how?

Sounds like you are delivering a touch attack spell, actually. It is a standard action, make a touch attack to deliver the negative energy. It is not at all a part of an attack.

The wording of snap kick suggests to me it is reliant on an attack, not an attack action. As this is an attack, I would expect it to trigger snap kick (assuming the melee weapons thing doesn't get in the way). I'm also of the school of thought that snap kick triggers on AoOs though, which is still not agreed on either way by RAW as far as I can tell.

It would have been real nice if Wizards had done proper errata for ToB.

I think it's a list of three things too, but it's obviously badly written and so I'm adding this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread — since a house rule is required.

The reason I suspect it is not the case is unless you are a swordsage, requiring three maneuvers mandates you have to burn three feats on martial study. Which seems prohibitive in design to the point of being silly to not simply mandate a level of swordsage or some swordsage-only ability as a requirement instead.

[Immabozo]

I'd probably interpret the touch of the shadow sun as not working on the second attack as the ability pretty much spells out that it works on that particular melee touch - snap kick would just generate another punch to the face.

Regardless the wording in touch of the shadow sun, specifically "In the round after you use this ability" and "You cannot use both aspects of this ability on the same round, nor can you use the negative energy touch again in a round after you have already successfully used it" seems to expressly prevent ridiculous abuse of this ability anyway. Godly? I can't see how?

It is a standard action to use it. Read the War Hulk ability. At level four it specifies that you can use it as part of a full attack or AoO. Not that, that dictates how it works, but as an example. I suppose you think a spell can be cast in the middle of a full attack, just because it is a standard action and a melee touch attack?

The wording of snap kick suggests to me it is reliant on an attack, not an attack action. As this is an attack, I would expect it to trigger snap kick (assuming the melee weapons thing doesn't get in the way). I'm also of the school of thought that snap kick triggers on AoOs though, which is still not agreed on either way by RAW as far as I can tell.

It would have been real nice if Wizards had done proper errata for ToB.

Much of D&D would be better if they did.

Snap kick does not trigger on just any attack. See the above casting mid full attack just because it requires a melee touch attack

[justiceforall]

I suppose you think a spell can be cast in the middle of a full attack, just because it is a standard action and a melee touch attack?

Sigh, so we've gotten to this level have we? No, this is obviously not the case, and I don't recall suggesting or even implying that this was how it works.

Snap kick does not trigger on just any attack.

And I've clearly shown where I think that it does trigger on just any attack. From the feat (emphasis mine):

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

It does not state what sort of attack (yes, it provides examples, but not as an exhaustive list), merely that it has to be an attack. Touch of the shadow sun uses the word attack in the text, and it does not specifically preclude other triggers from occurring. Hence my interpretation that despite its "spell like" characteristics you've assigned it, it would still trigger snap kick by literal interpretation of the rules.

If you or anyone else can show me a definitive piece of errata, rules FAQ, or anything else that clearly shows snap kick requires specifically a standard or full attack (or otherwise) action to trigger, then I will concede this point and thank you for the reference. Until then, you'll need a better or a clearer argument than what you've shown me.


EDIT: disclaimer - the use of the term "melee weapon" is still bugging me on the validity of snap kick with melee touch attacks and may still invalidate the feat activation

[Immabozo]

Sigh, so we've gotten to this level have we? No, this is obviously not the case, and I don't recall suggesting or even implying that this was how it works.

And I've clearly shown where I think that it does trigger on just any attack. From the feat (emphasis mine):

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons"

It does not state what sort of attack (yes, it provides examples, but not as an exhaustive list), merely that it has to be an attack. Touch of the shadow sun uses the word attack in the text, and it does not specifically preclude other triggers from occurring. Hence my interpretation that despite its "spell like" characteristics you've assigned it, it would still trigger snap kick by literal interpretation of the rules.

If you or anyone else can show me a definitive piece of errata, rules FAQ, or anything else that clearly shows snap kick requires specifically a standard or full attack (or otherwise) action to trigger, then I will concede this point and thank you for the reference. Until then, you'll need a better or a clearer argument than what you've shown me.

EDIT: disclaimer - the use of the term "melee weapon" is still bugging me on the validity of snap kick with melee touch attacks and may still invalidate the feat activation

It is a totally valid argument to show you the faulty in your logic. The class is just worse than you want it to be. If you house rule it fixed, then that's different.

Many spells are "target: make a melee touch attack" should snap kick be able to be used here? Or as part of a full attack action? After all, it uses the word attack. Or perhaps any spell that requires a touch attack. After all, it uses the word "attack".

you are trying to twist the rules to what you want them to be. That is not an insult. We are all guilty of it at one time or another.

It is a single attack and it requires a standard action to use. is is decidedly not a "melee attack", it is the channeling of negative energy. It doesn't even get str to damage for god's sake!

[justiceforall]

It is a totally valid argument to show you the faulty in your logic. The class is just worse than you want it to be.

So anyone that disagrees with you is obviously clouded by their own desire-born bias? Please leave your value judgements at the door.

Many spells are "target: make a melee touch attack" should snap kick be able to be used here? Or as part of a full attack action? After all, it uses the word attack. Or perhaps any spell that requires a touch attack. After all, it uses the word "attack".

Yes I would assume snap kick works on spells that use a touch attack (assuming melee touch attack counts as a weapon). Snap kick also definitely works as part of a full attack action, it is expressly provided as an example in the text. And in case you are just being unclear in your language and meant to try and say that I was arguing Touch of the Shadow Sun can be used as part of a full attack, the text specifically precludes it "With a melee touch attack made as a standard action". It is clear that a standard action is not a full-round action.

It is a single attack and it requires a standard action to use. is is decidedly not a "melee attack", it is the channeling of negative energy. It doesn't even get str to damage for god's sake!

So by your example and using your own argument style, the following is no longer an attack either since it doesn't get strength to damage? (It's a rhetorical question)

"Weak Spot: A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level. When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to the damage."

Regardless, I'm done with this line of discussion here, I'll take it up in the RAW thread.


Further questions for others:

- It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

- Light within Darkness is obviously fun when your character leaps from the shadows/invisibility/etc to smack someone, but it seems hard to trigger after that. Are there many ways to hide as a free action or at least get action economy to try and retrigger Light within Darkness mid combat?

- Darkness Within Light obviously precludes the various forms of blind-sight, etc, but it doesn't seem to prevent the use of Uncanny Dodge to at least prevent everything else from hitting you flat-footed?

[Immabozo]

So anyone that disagrees with you is obviously clouded by their own desire-born bias? Please leave your value judgements at the door.

and anyone who disagrees with you is a judging you?

Yes I would assume snap kick works on spells that use a touch attack (assuming melee touch attack counts as a weapon). ... And in case you are just being unclear in your language and meant to try and say that I was arguing Touch of the Shadow Sun can be used as part of a full attack, the text specifically precludes it "With a melee touch attack made as a standard action". It is clear that a standard action is not a full-round action.

Many spells have the same text. just because it is an "attack" doesn't mean it can be used in a full attack action. Should a wizard get iterative attacks based on a high BAB because the spell they're casting is a melee touch attack? Or maybe the two weapon fighting tree should allow the wizard to cast one melee touch attack out of each hand? It is an attack that only takes one hand.

I'm sorry, but you are twisting the ability to work in ways it doesn't. Although, yes, the words "melee" and "Touch attack" are used, there is no indication that it is more subject to use in a full attack action than any other spell or ability in the game that takes a standard action and uses the words "touch attack" or "melee touch attack".

You've used you standard action to make the attack. How do you plan to make more attacks?

It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

It is actually in the rules dysfunction that the SSN uses more swift actions, per RAW, than is legal. Using an immediate action and then getting a swift action to shoot a bolt of energy the following turn, is using more actions of the type than is legal.

Also, you are assuming that SSN is a good PrC. I have played it. It is far from good. It takes high levels of optimization to keep up with unoptimized characters

[HammeredWharf]

I don't think meant you can use Touch of the Shadow Sun in a full attack. He meant you can use Snap Kick in a full attack and I definitely agree with that. You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.

- It seems like the class (SSN) can use a *lot* of swift actions between maneuvers, Touch/Flames/Void of the Shadow Sun, etc. Is this a standard problem with ToB characters in general or is SSN a particular offender? Is there any way to get more swift actions or to make better use of them? I actually looked at Travel Devotion to be able to full attack and move, but noted that this is also a swift action to use.

The lack of swift actions is a problem many ToB characters face, but it's especially bad in this case. It's why RKV's Divine Impetus isn't totally useless as written (as a standard action). On the other hand, many ToB characters don't have to full attack, because they use strikes.

- Light within Darkness is obviously fun when your character leaps from the shadows/invisibility/etc to smack someone, but it seems hard to trigger after that. Are there many ways to hide as a free action or at least get action economy to try and retrigger Light within Darkness mid combat?

Hiding as a free action is impossible, as far as I know. Even (improved) invisibility wouldn't help in this case, but you can pick Travel Devotion and hide as as part of movement.

- Darkness Within Light obviously precludes the various forms of blind-sight, etc, but it doesn't seem to prevent the use of Uncanny Dodge to at least prevent everything else from hitting you flat-footed?

Yep, it doesn't.

[Immabozo]

I don't think meant you can use Touch of the Shadow Sun in a full attack. He meant you can use Snap Kick in a full attack and I definitely agree with that. You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.

No, he justiceforall was certainly arguing that Touch of the Shadow Sun could be used as part of a full attack. He initially was saying that it made all attacks that round into touch attacks.

When I told him it didn't work that way, but his DM was always free to houserule that it did, he got angry at me.

even if snap kick works on touch attack spells, which I doubt it does, it would STILL be a waste of a feat for a caster. Only MAYBE worth it for a gish. But I could think of a million better feats for both a caster and a gish

[justiceforall]

No, he justiceforall was certainly arguing that Touch of the Shadow Sun could be used as part of a full attack. He initially was saying that it made all attacks that round into touch attacks.

No that wasn't even close to what I was saying. I don't even recall discussing full attacks.

I was proposing that a spell based melee attack still triggers snap kick, which I believe has been agreed to in the RAW thread. I have no idea how you managed to interpret that I was proposing Touch could be part of a full attack.

When I told him it didn't work that way, but his DM was always free to houserule that it did, he got angry at me.

and anyone who disagrees with you is a judging you?

You've repeatedly put motive into my statements: "you are trying to twist the rules". This is judging my intentions, which is insulting. There would have been no angst here if you'd just kept to discussing the rules.


HammeredWharf:

You can also use Snap Kick after a melee touch attack spell, but I guess the applications of that are quite few. Could be great for a Sacred Fist.

You can, but I believe only if you use an unarmed attack to deliver it instead of a touch attack. Which unfortunately would disqualify Touch of the Shadow Sun as there is no way I can think of to deliver Touch as a strike instead since its a (Su) and not a (Sp). See the RAW thread for Curmudgeons discussion on the matter.

Hiding as a free action is impossible, as far as I know. Even (improved) invisibility wouldn't help in this case, but you can pick Travel Devotion and hide as as part of movement.

Hiding as part of movement - can you point me at the part of the rules that spells out hiding and actions? The SRD is a little unclear, I can get to your conclusion but I have to infer it. Is there some way you can use feats and creating a diversion to generate more hide checks?

[HammeredWharf]

You can, but I believe only if you use an unarmed attack to deliver it instead of a touch attack. Which unfortunately would disqualify Touch of the Shadow Sun as there is no way I can think of to deliver Touch as a strike instead since its a (Su) and not a (Sp). See the RAW thread for Curmudgeons discussion on the matter.

Oh, I guess I misread Snap Kick. After rereading it I agree with Curmudgeon.

Hiding as part of movement - can you point me at the part of the rules that spells out hiding and actions? The SRD is a little unclear, I can get to your conclusion but I have to infer it. Is there some way you can use feats and creating a diversion to generate more hide checks?

Here:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

I think it's quite clear.

As for more Hide checks, you make one each time you attack from hiding. Yes, you take a -20 penalty, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you've optimized Hide and your opponents aren't all druids with maximized Spot. You can use good old Greater Invisibility to negate that penalty, but it's a bit clumsy if you don't have a DMM: Persist cleric capable of casting it.

[justiceforall]

Oh, I guess I misread Snap Kick. After rereading it I agree with Curmudgeon.



Here:



I think it's quite clear.

As for more Hide checks, you make one each time you attack from hiding. Yes, you take a -20 penalty, but that shouldn't be a huge problem if you've optimized Hide and your opponents aren't all druids with maximized Spot. You can use good old Greater Invisibility to negate that penalty, but it's a bit clumsy if you don't have a DMM: Persist cleric capable of casting it.

Yeah I was hoping they'd done a list or a table, but it seems like its basically a "move action".

I wonder if the Shadow Striker (or Improved Diversion) feat has any useful applications to this, but it doesn't seem like it. I mean, it seems like it works, but it doesn't seem like good action economy?

Can Gloom Razor trigger Light Within Darkness?

[HammeredWharf]

Anything that lets you make a Hide check works, so Gloom Razor's Lingering Gloom is ok. Improved Diversion and Shadow Striker are, indeed, very bad action economy wise.

[justiceforall]

So let's assume I build this character to qualify at level 6 (using the 3rd and 6th level feats for martial study) and take the first level of SSN at 7th. I'm not even sure I could qualify earlier than that without taking a level of Swordsage?

The 3rd level feat has to be a 1st level maneuver so probably Mighty Throw or something similar. The 6th level Martial Study can be a 2nd level maneuver? (not a 3rd, since that would require you to be equivalent 5th level Swordsage - did I interpret that correctly?) So for example, Shadow Jaunt.

So if I want to put a single level of Warblade into those 6 levels somewhere, where is the best point to do it? Taking the level earlier lets the Martial Study feats become normal maneuvers, but taking it later gives access to higher level Warblade maneuvers. I'm also not even sure that I would want the Martial Study maneuvers to become normal maneuvers; for example if I only ever want to use those maneuvers once an encounter I'm better off leaving them out of my maneuver list since effectively I gain an additional maneuver slot for it (albeit without a recovery mechanic)?

[HammeredWharf]

Are you trying to use the warblade refresh mechanic for the SSN maneuvers? In that case, I think you have to take Martial Study after your warblade level.

And yes, without any SS levels you can only get in at lvl 7, a level later than a SS could.

[justiceforall]

Are you trying to use the warblade refresh mechanic for the SSN maneuvers? In that case, I think you have to take Martial Study after your warblade level.

I would be trying to use the Warblade refresh mechanic for most maneuvers. I'm not sure if I care if its for all the maneuvers, because it seems like by adding the Martial Study feats to the maneuvers list I would lose out slightly by not having those abilities as additional once-per-encounter tricks (and warblades only get 3 maneuvers readied at 1st). Obviously if the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers were awesome and I wanted to jam them multiple times an encounter then that would change the decisions, but I'm honestly not familiar enough with ToB to make an educated decision there.

I had a look at the ToB for dummies guide and it shows a few good break points for Warblade - taking the Warblade level at 6th for instance lets you get Iron Heart Surge for example if you are so inclined. The tradeoff here is that if I take Warblade at 6th, whatever maneuver I take with Martial Study at 3rd level is not added to the Warblade maneuvers, it is instead a stand alone once-per-encounter ability. I've never used the ToB at all, so I'm not even sure which maneuvers are good, bad or indifferent, so I was looking for direction on what sort of qualifying (for SSN) maneuver would be useful to have once per encounter, or if I'm better off just taking Warblade at somewhere in the 1st-3rd level, having both Martial Study maneuvers on the warblade list, and not getting easier access to the higher level Warblade maneuvers.

[justiceforall]

Just to be clear, I'm also looking for general low-level (1st-6th) ToB assistance or commentary for a beat-stick Warblade with ninja-ish themes, since as I said, I know jack about ToB in practical use.

[Immabozo]

Just to be clear, I'm also looking for general low-level (1st-6th) ToB assistance or commentary for a beat-stick Warblade with ninja-ish themes, since as I said, I know jack about ToB in practical use.

Well, here's on, if you got swordsage, at level 1, it is 6+int x 6 kill points!

[HammeredWharf]

At lvl 3 and without any SS levels, you've got access to Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Counter Charge and Mighty Throw. I'd pick Counter Charge. It's situational, but very satisfying when you get to use it. Perfect for your 1/encounter trick. The others are offensive and scale unfortunately badly with level.

If you choose Counter Charge, you can pick between Cloak of Deception and Shadow Jaunt for you 2nd level maneuver. There's also Drain Vitality, but let's ignore it. SJ is very good for a 2nd level maneuver, but standard action teleportation is cheap (Dimension Stride Boots, MIC, 2K gold) and not that useful later on, especially with the LoS requirement. On the other hand, CoD is a swift action Greater Invisibility, which is all kinds of awesome. With your ninja theme and Hide-based abilities, it could be one of your main maneuvers.

As for general Warblade tips, there's a handbook for that. Most of it applies to you, but keep in mind that your initiator level is much lower than that of a pure Warblade, so you're better off picking maneuvers with scaling or unique bonuses (Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader’s Charge, Blood in the Water, Hunter’s Sense, Leading the Charge, Insightful Strike) than those with static bonuses, like Stone Bones. Warblade's early supermaneuvers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, but unfortunately you'll get neither. WRT could be worth spending a feat on later on.

[justiceforall]

Counter Charge and Mighty Throw. I'd pick Counter Charge. It's situational, but very satisfying when you get to use it. Perfect for your 1/encounter trick.

I just reread Counter Charge. As you said it seems great for a one per encounter trick.

When you get to move the offender up to 2 squares, does that count as movement which would also provoke AoOs where appropriate?

I really like Mighty Throw, but I could use SSN maneuvers to pick up the better Setting Sun throws later.

On the other hand, CoD is a swift action Greater Invisibility, which is all kinds of awesome. With your ninja theme and Hide-based abilities, it could be one of your main maneuvers.

It also seems like a good way to potentially activate Light Within Darkness without sucking, especially if I pick up some sort of strike maneuver to use in the same turn so losing the full attack isn't as bad.

As for general Warblade tips, there's a handbook for that. Most of it applies to you, but keep in mind that your initiator level is much lower than that of a pure Warblade

On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?

Warblade's early supermaneuvers are Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, but unfortunately you'll get neither. WRT could be worth spending a feat on later on.

Yeah I went and reread the guide's Warblade dip section and you have to have 8 other non-initiator class levels to qualify for those two. So the build would have to be monk or other classes 2/warblade 4 or other classes 8/warblade 1, etc. if I understand it correctly.

[Immabozo]

On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?

That would by my assumption

EDIT: I can see a rules dysfunction entry here

[HammeredWharf]

When you get to move the offender up to 2 squares, does that count as movement which would also provoke AoOs where appropriate?

It's still the same action as the charge, so it doesn't provoke another AoO if you've already AoOed the target for charging you. Otherwise, yes.

On that note - "You add your full Shadow Sun ninja levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known" - appears to imply that SSN levels count full towards Warblade maneuvers even though they do not share the same schools?

Yeah I went and reread the guide's Warblade dip section and you have to have 8 other non-initiator class levels to qualify for those two. So the build would have to be monk or other classes 2/warblade 4 or other classes 8/warblade 1, etc. if I understand it correctly.

Yes to both. Several ToB PRCs don't share their schools with the entry classes, so this isn't particularly uncommon. In the Other 2 / WB 4 case, you'd have to take another level of WB to get both IHS and WRT, because you only get one new maneuver per level.