Hearthstone 6: The Wrath of Cairne

[Infernally Clay]

Most constructed rogue decks don't run assassinates. They're typically judged to be too costly and too slow.

...I don't think I'll ever understand that. Five mana, zero if you use Preparation beforehand, to instantly kill anything regardless of buffs or Divine Shields is not what I'd call too slow.

[Frog Dragon]

A prepped assassinate would be 2 mana. Prep doesn't set cost to 0, it reduces cost by 3.

And the chief cause is probably that by the time the game has progressed to the point where the rogue encounters something worth hard removing, they don't need to kill it, they just need it gone for a turn to spit the final nail in the coffin. Miracles are very mana tight in their closing turns, and the difference between Assassinate and Sap is that Sap leaves you with enough mana to pull off the kill, while Assassinate would not. The rogue's damage based removal is already quite efficient, and more to the point, what would you cut? Some miracle rogues only run 1 sap. If even the second sap doesn't always make the cut, why would assassinate?

For tempo rogues, again, by the time you need to hard remove something, you only really need it gone for a turn.

Bottom line: 2 mana vs 5 mana is a huge difference, and most rogue decks are fast enough to not need an actual permanent kill spell. If an actual control-rogue deck became popular, they might have cause to run it.

Also, assassinate is still great in arena.

[Zevox]

Well that was weird. Mirror match against a Rogue and they used both Saps on the same Questing Adventurer. First I got him to 14/6, then to 4/4 and finally to 6/6. They made me waste a few cards, yes, but I won in the end. I assume they never drew their Assassinates. They never really seemed to have any decent firepower in their deck, though, since the strongest card they actually played was Gadgetzan Auctioneer. I know how valuable that card is in Rogue decks and I have two of them in my own, but I also have other "big" stuff too like two Azure Drakes and Leeroy.

That was almost certainly a Miracle Rogue - really the only type of Rogue you see nowadays. And yeah, they don't run assassinate. They're only really concerned about killing your minions early on, so you don't get aggressive enough to take them down before their combo goes off. In the late game their plan is to use Gadgetzan to draw an unholy amount of cards, get a Leeroy combo for massive damage (or Malygos, in rare cases), and just win outright with that. Assassinate just doesn't fit the deck.

[Zevox]

And I have just gotten my first official double legendary! I got Ysera in a pack, whom I crafted months ago. Not gold, sadly, so only 400 dust, but still, that's a pretty nice sum.

Actually, might not be a bad time for me to save for a new legendary. I already had 200 dust banked (I've been making epics lately), and I still have Gruul sitting around doing nothing, too. If I use him for the last 400, I only need 600 dust from here. Could take a while at 40 dust per pack, but I've had somewhat better luck than that the past few days, obviously.

Guess I should probably shoot for Bloodmage Thalnos. As tempting as it is to go for someone more exciting, he fits in too many decks, particularly of the type I'm fond of, and he's the last widely-played neutral legendary I lack (besides Leeroy, of course).

[Hamste]

And I have just gotten my first official double legendary! I got Ysera in a pack, whom I crafted months ago. Not gold, sadly, so only 400 dust, but still, that's a pretty nice sum.

Actually, might not be a bad time for me to save for a new legendary. I already had 200 dust banked (I've been making epics lately), and I still have Gruul sitting around doing nothing, too. If I use him for the last 400, I only need 600 dust from here. Could take a while at 40 dust per pack, but I've had somewhat better luck than that the past few days, obviously.

Guess I should probably shoot for Bloodmage Thalnos. As tempting as it is to go for someone more exciting, he fits in too many decks, particularly of the type I'm fond of, and he's the last widely-played neutral legendary I lack (besides Leeroy, of course).

Lucky, so far I have drawn 3 legendaries one of which was a double. I got double The Beast and Tinkmaster Overspark (Sadly, I got it after the nerf's 1600 dust thing was over).

[Astrella]

you won't be disappointed

can someone link a good Zoolock with Leeroy? I never use him in Zoo...

Don't know if it's necessarily that good, but this is what I run and I've had a fair bit of success with it:

[Selrahc]

Don't know if it's necessarily that good, but this is what I run and I've had a fair bit of success with it:

I can see how taking out the second Doomguard helps Leeroy a bit, since that is one less card that can discard him... but Leeroy really does just seem worse than a Doomguard.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, got a standard 40 dust pack today. Had two commons I can use in different decks, so I suppose that's something.

If my luck keeps up tomorrow, and I get another 40 duster, I may go back to Arena for a bit.

[Frog Dragon]

Decided to try Miracle in ranked. Ran into zoo. Won at 1HP. Also sapped the same doomguard twice. Not sure if it's the most efficient play, but it was funny watching him repeatedly haemorrhage his hand.

[Infernally Clay]

That was almost certainly a Miracle Rogue - really the only type of Rogue you see nowadays. And yeah, they don't run assassinate. They're only really concerned about killing your minions early on, so you don't get aggressive enough to take them down before their combo goes off. In the late game their plan is to use Gadgetzan to draw an unholy amount of cards, get a Leeroy combo for massive damage (or Malygos, in rare cases), and just win outright with that. Assassinate just doesn't fit the deck.

Yet I was running my own Miracle Rogue deck, one I made myself from the main theme of what a Miracle Rogue deck is meant to accomplish, and that very match proved my Assassinate was better than their Sap. Here's my deck...



...and, honestly, I don't see it performing anywhere near as well as it does if I were to replace the Assassinates with Saps. Sap is a terrible card. I thought as much before that match and that match only served to solidify my opinion. You're basically paying a card to slow your opponent down, which is awful. At least Frost Nova targets all their minions and even Ice Lance does damage if the minion is already frozen. If you've got lethal and the only thing in your way is a taunt minion, sure, I could see a use for Sap, but in general? Assassinate is better every time. Sap is useless against minions that have passive effects like Questing Adventurer (as was proved during that match) or a battlecry. I can't think of very many situations besides when you already have lethal that you'd want to give your opponent their minion back rather than kill it.

You can sit there and say so-and-so says it's a bad card because reasons but that doesn't make them right. Guardian of Kings is supposed to be a bad card too, and I can see why people might think that when they compare it to a card like Boulderfist Ogre, yet I can't even count how many games I've won because of it. I disenchanted Al'Akir during the closed beta because everyone said it was a bad card that wasn't worth keeping over an epic I'd actually use and in recent months everyone changed their tune, saying Al'Akir is actually a fantastic card and in hindsight I should never have gotten rid of it. I shouldn't have listened to popular opinion. People have good ideas when it comes to decks focusing on specific themes, and stuff like Miracle Rogue is an excellent deck type, but I don't think I'll ever trust someone else's opinion regarding the effectiveness of a card over my own. I may never reach Legendary, although I probably could if I played anywhere near as frequently as people who do make it to Legendary, but I know what works for me and what doesn't - and Assassinate works for me a lot better than Sap ever will.

Decided to try Miracle in ranked. Ran into zoo. Won at 1HP. Also sapped the same doomguard twice. Not sure if it's the most efficient play, but it was funny watching him repeatedly haemorrhage his hand.

Although this does remind me of that time I used Sap on a Pit Lord. My opponent never played that card again during the whole match. Sap is awesome against Warlocks at least.

[Frog Dragon]

Who's calling GoK a bad card? It's a mainstay in Control Paladin and one of their most important stall tools.

[otakuryoga]

Yet I was running my own Miracle Rogue deck, one I made myself from the main theme of what a Miracle Rogue deck is meant to accomplish, and that very match proved my Assassinate was better than their Sap.

one match can hardly "prove" that

You can sit there and say so-and-so says it's a bad card because reasons but that doesn't make them right.

and yet you.....

but I know what works for me and what doesn't -
and Assassinate works for me a lot better than Sap ever will.

and then you save yourself


using !SCIENCE and mathhammering the #'s for the absolute most efficiency says sap
but there is something to be said for dealing with a critter once instead of multiple times

sap/assassinate is almost purely a matter of taste

[Rosstin]

made this for the card design contest

Spoiler: Death Knight Card

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[Kish]

Shouldn't that be "ghoul," not "Forsaken"? Forsaken means something specific in Warcraft, and "throwaway minions of a death knight" isn't it.

[Rosstin]

Maybe I'll change it to ghoul.....

I made Instructor Raz and his Understudies too.

What do you think? Too strong? I'm thinking I might reduce him to a 5/4 and make the bonus for the understudy +3 or +2 health.

Spoiler: Instructor Razuvious

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[Frog Dragon]

Making the bonus health +2 would make him more balanced. It's generally difficult to evaluate minions with effects like these. It's not card draw, not really. He's closer to 12 attack and 10-18 health for 12 mana, split up. The biggest problem is probably that the +4 health is waaaay better than the other two possibilities. Even +2 is still better than taunt or the water elemental ability.

[Selrahc]

...and, honestly, I don't see it performing anywhere near as well as it does if I were to replace the Assassinates with Saps. Sap is a terrible card. I thought as much before that match and that match only served to solidify my opinion. You're basically paying a card to slow your opponent down, which is awful.

"Innervate is a terrible card. You're basically paying a card just to speed yourself up, which is awful"
Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

I think you're wrong in your belief that sap is a bad card, but I'd like to know your attitude to tempo cards in general.

[Xondoure]

So I just bought twenty packs at once with all the gold I saved up. It was sublime. And landed me with, among other goodies, Van Cleef and a golden Jaraxxus. One dust later and I have Leeroy. Time to try Miracle Rogue I think.

[Infernally Clay]

"Innervate is a terrible card. You're basically paying a card just to speed yourself up, which is awful"
Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

I think you're wrong in your belief that sap is a bad card, but I'd like to know your attitude to tempo cards in general.

Innervate isn't terrible but is itself a pretty bad card, although for completely different reasons to (and not to the same extent as) Sap. Sap only delays one of your opponent's plays by a turn whereas Innervate can let you play a card two turns before you normally could. Positively affecting your tempo is better than negatively affecting your opponent's, with the reverse also being true (I'd rather destroy one of my mana crystals than give my opponent an extra one). That by itself is a big difference. Even so, you have to be damn sure that early play is worth it and that playing it now will allow it to cost your opponent one card more than it normally would.

Dropping Chillwind Yeti during the first or second turn can be a major advantage in the early game, but Chillwind Yeti normally costs your opponent two 2 mana minions anyway and people are prepared for it now. While the Coin is a free card that doesn't really need to be accounted for, Innervate doesn't have that luxury - so Chillwind Yeti needs to not only pay for itself, but also the Innervate and making that Chillwind Yeti cost your opponent three cards is a lot harder than you might think. I've frequently killed Yetis with only one card, sometimes not even that, and I've had Yetis killed with the same amount.

While there are other applications for Innervate, like playing your really big stuff a couple of turns early, the card inevitably loses value as the game goes on. Playing a Chillwind Yeti on turn four is a much stronger effect than playing a Cenarius on turn seven. Ultimately, however, I view Innervate and Sap the same as I view Hand of Protection or Holy Light. By themselves they do not, and cannot, provide card value... And for me, superior card value is main goal of every match. The fewer cards it takes to deal with my opponent's plays, the better.

...which probably explains why I suck at Warlock.

[Rosstin]

Making the bonus health +2 would make him more balanced. It's generally difficult to evaluate minions with effects like these. It's not card draw, not really. He's closer to 12 attack and 10-18 health for 12 mana, split up. The biggest problem is probably that the +4 health is waaaay better than the other two possibilities. Even +2 is still better than taunt or the water elemental ability.

Fixed

Spoiler: Instructor Raz and his Understudies

Show

[Anarion]

If I might offer an opinion. Superior card value is surely not the main goal of every match. The main goal is to reduce your opponent's life to 0. That's the only goal.

If you're focused on anything other than how you're going to accomplish that feat, you're thinking about the game wrong. This is true even of the most controlling strategy in the game. Card advantage is there to make sure you can play and stick a threat while preventing your opponent from doing the same. But you can finish a game by dropping every card in your hand and sacrificing your whole board. And if you deal 20 damage to an opponent at 20 life, that's the best play in the world, even if it leaves you incapable of dealing a single point more after that.

[Selrahc]

Sap only delays one of your opponent's plays by a turn

Okay. Let's bring up something important here. A typical miracle rogue game lasts under 10 turns. If you can set your opponent back 1 whole turn, and a fairly late in the game turn at that, while you still get to play.... that is amazing! If there was a card whose text said "2 mana- Your opponent skips his next turn" it would be incredibly broken, and Sap is almost that but for the previous turn. Assassinate is also a pretty good card, but it is a whole hell of a lot slower. When you assassinate, you are basically skipping your own turn. Something throws back the curve on a miracle victory.

That is just the card on its own merits. No "Removing the taunt to get lethal", no "Removing a buffed minion for notional card advantage", not even the combo with gadgetzan is being taken into account. That is just sap on its own merits. When all of those things are considered it is clear why it is run by all miracle rogue decks. (generally as a one of, because the meta doesn't favour big slow minions. A problem that affects assassinate even more harshly)

[Infernally Clay]

If I might offer an opinion. Superior card value is surely not the main goal of every match. The main goal is to reduce your opponent's life to 0. That's the only goal.

If you're focused on anything other than how you're going to accomplish that feat, you're thinking about the game wrong. This is true even of the most controlling strategy in the game. Card advantage is there to make sure you can play and stick a threat while preventing your opponent from doing the same. But you can finish a game by dropping every card in your hand and sacrificing your whole board. And if you deal 20 damage to an opponent at 20 life, that's the best play in the world, even if it leaves you incapable of dealing a single point more after that.

Main goal does not mean only goal. If your main goal is to maintain card value, it doesn't mean you don't hit them in the face. It simply means you prioritise getting the most value out of your cards as possible, with beating your opponent over the head being what you do when you've dealt with your opponent's cards.

Just as an example, in my last match against a Priest, I used a Blessing of Might on a Silver Hand Recruit and then played an Argent Protector to give that Recruit a Divine Shield. So I effectively paid two cards to get a 4/1 Recruit with a Divine Shield and a 2/2 minion on the board. That one Recruit cost my opponent two cards (I think it was a Dalaran Mage and a Jungle Panther) and 12 hit points. While that was an exceptional circumstance that rarely happens, it serves as an example that "gaining card value" and "reducing opponent's health to 0" are not mutually exclusive and that the former can actually allow you to do the latter more easily. Consecration can, if used at the right moment, leave your opponent's face wide open. Using a Stampeding Kodo after an Aldor Peacekeeper will destroy one of your opponent's minions for free and leave you with a 3/3 and a 3/5 on the board, which is a significant advantage.

[Forbiddenwar]

The best opening hand a druid can have is two innervates, coin, power of the wild and Violet Teacher. Even though it means losing your whole hand and only having 1 card on the board.

[Frog Dragon]

Main goal does not mean only goal. If your main goal is to maintain card value, it doesn't mean you don't hit them in the face. It simply means you prioritise getting the most value out of your cards as possible, with beating your opponent over the head being what you do when you've dealt with your opponent's cards.

Just as an example, in my last match against a Priest, I used a Blessing of Might on a Silver Hand Recruit and then played an Argent Protector to give that Recruit a Divine Shield. So I effectively paid two cards to get a 4/1 Recruit with a Divine Shield and a 2/2 minion on the board. That one Recruit cost my opponent two cards (I think it was a Dalaran Mage and a Jungle Panther) and 12 hit points. While that was an exceptional circumstance that rarely happens, it serves as an example that "gaining card value" and "reducing opponent's health to 0" are not mutually exclusive and that the former can actually allow you to do the latter more easily. Consecration can, if used at the right moment, leave your opponent's face wide open. Using a Stampeding Kodo after an Aldor Peacekeeper will destroy one of your opponent's minions for free and leave you with a 3/3 and a 3/5 on the board, which is a significant advantage.

I'm pretty sure the takeaway from Anarion's post is not "hit them in the face all the time". Just that the goal of every deck is to win, and the only win condition possible is the opponent going down to 0 hp. A deck is only good or bad depending on the consistency with which it achieves this before the opponent does.

Of course, preventing the opponent from winning is just as important as winning, and this is generally what the control deck focuses on. It's kind of the definition of a control deck.

[Math_Mage]

That sounds like a great turn 2 or 3 or 4, but your board will certainly have more than one card on it.

Yet I was running my own Miracle Rogue deck, one I made myself from the main theme of what a Miracle Rogue deck is meant to accomplish, and that very match proved my Assassinate was better than their Sap. Here's my deck...

<snip>

...and, honestly, I don't see it performing anywhere near as well as it does if I were to replace the Assassinates with Saps. Sap is a terrible card. I thought as much before that match and that match only served to solidify my opinion. You're basically paying a card to slow your opponent down, which is awful.

You can play about 50 matches with each card and evaluate its performance vs. the counterfactual and then disregard others' theorycrafting based on experience, or you can engage with the theorycrafting others provide, but you can't disregard others' theorycrafting based on one match.

Also, I don't think that anyone was disputing that card value can help with reducing your opponent's life to zero, but that's a red herring.

[Infernally Clay]

Okay. Let's bring up something important here. A typical miracle rogue game lasts under 10 turns. If you can set your opponent back 1 whole turn, and a fairly late in the game turn at that, while you still get to play.... that is amazing! If there was a card whose text said "2 mana- Your opponent skips his next turn" it would be incredibly broken, and Sap is almost that but for the previous turn. Assassinate is also a pretty good card, but it is a whole hell of a lot slower. When you assassinate, you are basically skipping your own turn. Something throws back the curve on a miracle victory.

That is just the card on its own merits. No "Removing the taunt to get lethal", no "Removing a buffed minion for notional card advantage", not even the combo with gadgetzan is being taken into account. That is just sap on its own merits. When all of those things are considered it is clear why it is run by all miracle rogue decks. (generally as a one of, because the meta doesn't favour big slow minions. A problem that affects assassinate even more harshly)

See, that I'd have to disagree with. All Sap does is send a single minion back to your opponent's hand. I've never once seen Sap set someone back a whole turn. Never. The most one of my Saps has ever done, as I said earlier, was send a Pit Lord back to the Warlock's hand so he either did another 5 damage to himself to use the minion again or left it in his hand as a dead card. I've played plenty of Miracle Rogue decks in the past and none of them have played the card in such a way that it's almost like paying two mana to make your opponent skip a turn.

If you've managed to set your opponent back a whole turn, then you're really lucky to have found an opponent that only plays one card a turn. Sap doesn't affect weapons or spells and allows them to reuse Battlecries, plus charge minions laugh at the card and you'd have to wipe out the rest of your opponent's board too since Sap only works on a single minion. Same with Assassinate. If, by playing it, you're skipping your own turn then you're doing something wrong. Five mana is a high cost but it kills a minion of your choice and you should have other minions on the board as well as potentially having weapons equipped.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm pretty sure the takeaway from Anarion's post is not "hit them in the face all the time". Just that the goal of every deck is to win, and the only win condition possible is the opponent going down to 0 hp. A deck is only good or bad depending on the consistency with which it achieves this before the opponent does.

Of course, preventing the opponent from winning is just as important as winning, and this is generally what the control deck focuses on. It's kind of the definition of a control deck.

Yeah; all the other goals are secondary to "kill the enemy hero". Card value and tempo and killing minions are all tools that you use in order to achieve your primary objective, which is killing. Then, the cards themselves are the secondary tools that you use to build your tools.

[Math_Mage]

See, that I'd have to disagree with. All Sap does is send a single minion back to your opponent's hand. I've never once seen Sap set someone back a whole turn. Never. The most one of my Saps has ever done, as I said earlier, was send a Pit Lord back to the Warlock's hand so he either did another 5 damage to himself to use the minion again or left it in his hand as a dead card. I've played plenty of Miracle Rogue decks in the past and none of them have played the card in such a way that it's almost like paying two mana to make your opponent skip a turn.

If you've managed to set your opponent back a whole turn, then you're really lucky to have found an opponent that only plays one card a turn. Sap doesn't affect weapons or spells and allows them to reuse Battlecries, plus charge minions laugh at the card and you'd have to wipe out the rest of your opponent's board too since Sap only works on a single minion. Same with Assassinate. If, by playing it, you're skipping your own turn then you're doing something wrong. Five mana is a high cost but it kills a minion of your choice and you should have other minions on the board as well as potentially having weapons equipped.

Lots of people play one big minion on the turn after a board wipe.

[Frog Dragon]

Ah, free wins. I just had a match where my opponent (a mage) opened with Novice Engineer. I responded with Armorsmith.

"You win this one."

To be fair, Freeze Mage vs Control Warrior is a ridiculously slanted matchup.