So how do you handle to SO that isn't that interested?

[WarKitty]

I remember this from the very first game I DM'd. We had one guy who was clearly only playing because his girlfriend was really into it. He came to the table with a fighter who took toughness for all his feats. Didn't want to fix it because that was a lot of work. Never did anything but swing his sword at things, and really only survived because the monsters didn't bother going after characters that weren't doing any damage.

[BWR]

Never actually been in this situation before but the best thing to do is talk to people. If this guy still hangs around after a few sessions, talk to the interested part of the relationship and find out if she has any ideas to get him interested, Failing that, ask her what the best way to get him to leave is - after all, if he isn't having fun there's no reason he should waste his time there, dragging down the others. You can also talk to the guy directly, asking what you can do to make things more interesting for him. You can also just single him out for roleplaying interactions. Make sure your NPCs are in character and put his character in situations where he needs to react to them.
You can even just leave things as they are. By the sound of it he wasn't disruptive even if he didn't participate much.

[WarKitty]

Never actually been in this situation before but the best thing to do is talk to people. If this guy still hangs around after a few sessions, talk to the interested part of the relationship and find out if she has any ideas to get him interested, Failing that, ask her what the best way to get him to leave is - after all, if he isn't having fun there's no reason he should waste his time there, dragging down the others. You can also talk to the guy directly, asking what you can do to make things more interesting for him. You can also just single him out for roleplaying interactions. Make sure your NPCs are in character and put his character in situations where he needs to react to them.
You can even just leave things as they are. By the sound of it he wasn't disruptive even if he didn't participate much.

The annoying thing is he seemed to be having fun, but it was sort of irritating the rest of the party. After all this guy was bad enough to be a positive liability, and they didn't want to invite OOC tension by just dropping his behind off at the nearest tavern. Just being that bad a character meant that he got blasted by every AoE spell in the area - and with 2 fighters in the party it was almost impossible to give him tailored loot. And it frustrated me as a DM because I didn't want to kill his character every session, especially knowing he'd come back with the same fighter if I did.

[Coidzor]

Well, if the SO is clued in then having *them* make their SO's character and help them run it is one potential stopgap.

Or having the DM give the neophyte a premade barbarian, warlock, or dragonfire adept. Or even a dumbed down version of the Crusader that literally only has X, Y, and Z maneuvers in order and then it resets, where X, Y, and Z only change based on level.

That at least helps with the "so bad, so horrible, agh" character factor.

[Knaight]

This doesn't really seem like much of an issue. They're a passive player who isn't doing much, and doesn't mind. If they play a passive character who doesn't do much, all's well. It might be worth getting together and getting together some sort of pregen who's much more effective, and asking if they mind playing their character with that set of stats.

[Airk]

This doesn't really seem like much of an issue. They're a passive player who isn't doing much, and doesn't mind. If they play a passive character who doesn't do much, all's well. It might be worth getting together and getting together some sort of pregen who's much more effective, and asking if they mind playing their character with that set of stats.

I pretty much agree with this; If he doesn't mind, why do you guys? It's not like he's actively NOT contributing, or making trouble, or doing anything problematic. So what if he's not very effective?

[WarKitty]

I pretty much agree with this; If he doesn't mind, why do you guys? It's not like he's actively NOT contributing, or making trouble, or doing anything problematic. So what if he's not very effective?

Because "not very effective" quickly crosses the line into "is a liability." The ineffective player may not mind, but that doesn't mean the other players want to be stuck hauling along and sharing treasure with a guy who's at best useless and at worst a waste of resources to keep moving.

[zinycor]

The annoying thing is he seemed to be having fun, but it was sort of irritating the rest of the party. After all this guy was bad enough to be a positive liability, and they didn't want to invite OOC tension by just dropping his behind off at the nearest tavern. Just being that bad a character meant that he got blasted by every AoE spell in the area - and with 2 fighters in the party it was almost impossible to give him tailored loot. And it frustrated me as a DM because I didn't want to kill his character every session, especially knowing he'd come back with the same fighter if I did.

seems to me that you just don't like the player. There is nothing wrong with hving a sub-optimal character no matter if the other players get annoyed by it. another issue is if the player is actually annoying, then i can understand your players, and you should talk to him.

As a fighter he should get enough feats at higher levels to be effective at whatevver thing he wants to do (if he ever wants) or eventually die

[WarKitty]

seems to me that you just don't like the player. There is nothing wrong with hving a sub-optimal character no matter if the other players get annoyed by it. another issue is if the player is actually annoying, then i can understand your players, and you should talk to him.

As a fighter he should get enough feats at higher levels to be effective at whatevver thing he wants to do (if he ever wants) or eventually die

I liked him just fine - he was a very nice person. And he kept up a commentary that could be quite funny. The trouble is that he was suboptimal enough to be actually costing the party resources while not effectively contributing anything. Other players don't want to have to waste heals and protection spells and whatnot on the guy who isn't doing anything to help the party, nor do they want to spend the time and money getting him raised every time he gets killed. But of course OOC no one wants to be that jerk who just lets their party member get killed.

[zinycor]

Because "not very effective" quickly crosses the line into "is a liability." The ineffective player may not mind, but that doesn't mean the other players want to be stuck hauling along and sharing treasure with a guy who's at best useless and at worst a waste of resources to keep moving.

then he would die, if you don't want sub-optimal characters build the characters for them, otherwise then they will play whatever character they feel like playing. Especially if the player is new and doesn't really know what is doing, building a good character requires a big deal of compromise and if this is your first game you probably just won't have that commitment.

Again, if the player is having fun with his sub-optimal player that's great, if the others players are having problems because of it, they can always not protect this fighter, and if the player is very bad the fighter will just die and so will the next fighter until he decides to make a more optimal character.

the point of the game is having fun, not beating monster or being the best. If your player is having fun, then let him.

[zinycor]

I liked him just fine - he was a very nice person. And he kept up a commentary that could be quite funny. The trouble is that he was suboptimal enough to be actually costing the party resources while not effectively contributing anything. Other players don't want to have to waste heals and protection spells and whatnot on the guy who isn't doing anything to help the party, nor do they want to spend the time and money getting him raised every time he gets killed. But of course OOC no one wants to be that jerk who just lets their party member get killed.

As the DM you could always give him advice on how to build his character in such a way that he will be more effective, i don't think that he has a suboptimal character on purpose. IMC i have one player who comes especially to talk and drink some beers, and that's fine, me and the other players help him on his build so he can be a great asset when combat arises, there's nothing wrong with that

[JusticeZero]

If the guy doesn't care enough to do his character design, they likely won't mind having others help on the build. Just have someone help build him into a solidly powerful and effective T4-5 with a very simplistic design, preferably one with some sort of effect around them that passively helps the rest of the party, and point him in the right direction at the start of each fight.

[WarKitty]

then he would die, if you don't want sub-optimal characters build the characters for them, otherwise then they will play whatever character they feel like playing. Especially if the player is new and doesn't really know what is doing, building a good character requires a big deal of compromise and if this is your first game you probably just won't have that commitment.

Again, if the player is having fun with his sub-optimal player that's great, if the others players are having problems because of it, they can always not protect this fighter, and if the player is very bad the fighter will just die and so will the next fighter until he decides to make a more optimal character.

the point of the game is having fun, not beating monster or being the best. If your player is having fun, then let him.

The trouble is he's having fun in a way that is making the game less fun for everyone else who wants to actually play. He didn't want to let someone else build his character either because his AC, HP, and to-hit were already more things than he wanted to deal with. He wanted to be there and do what his girlfriend was doing without actually playing the game at all.

In a lot of groups refusing to protect one character would be considered a very passive-aggressive move. You just don't do that, just like you don't start PvP in a lot of games, because that's not how people want to play the game.

Edit: The trouble with this sort is that they're uninterested in the game, not just in character design. You can build them the best character ever, but they're just going to spam the move that requires the fewest dice to do in the most straightforward way possible. They don't want to have to figure out more rules than it takes to swing a sword or shoot a bow, and then they're going to do that every round.

[Knaight]

The trouble is he's having fun in a way that is making the game less fun for everyone else who wants to actually play. He didn't want to let someone else build his character either because his AC, HP, and to-hit were already more things than he wanted to deal with. He wanted to be there and do what his girlfriend was doing without actually playing the game at all.

It sounds more like he doesn't like dealing with a rules heavy system than he doesn't want to play the game. Let him keep it simple, maybe throw the character something that makes things simple. Maybe he gets some item that lets him heal fully before combat. Maybe you assign some arbitrary bonus to AC, HP, to-hit, and damage to make the character useful within the specific context of the combat system.

What does he do with the rest of the game?

[zinycor]

The trouble is he's having fun in a way that is making the game less fun for everyone else who wants to actually play. He didn't want to let someone else build his character either because his AC, HP, and to-hit were already more things than he wanted to deal with. He wanted to be there and do what his girlfriend was doing without actually playing the game at all.

In a lot of groups refusing to protect one character would be considered a very passive-aggressive move. You just don't do that, just like you don't start PvP in a lot of games, because that's not how people want to play the game.

Edit: The trouble with this sort is that they're uninterested in the game, not just in character design. You can build them the best character ever, but they're just going to spam the move that requires the fewest dice to do in the most straightforward way possible. They don't want to have to figure out more rules than it takes to swing a sword or shoot a bow, and then they're going to do that every round.

i see 3 solutions for this:

1) make him a very basic fighter, one who doesn't have to care about many things, there are many great character who just swing his big great axe with an str of 18, that's never a bad thing for a party.

2) he will die eventually, your friends can only protect you that much. If you character is bad for your level he will just keep to die, eventually the player will be frustrated enough that he will ask for help (possibly in an aggresive way, but the important thing is that he will ask for help) and end up with a good character.

3) Just let the other layers guide him on what he should do, am sure his girlfriend will give him advice that he could use.

Seriously though, i really think the guy might be new to the hobby, so just guiding him and setting some situations where he might learn what to do should be enough

[WarKitty]

It sounds more like he doesn't like dealing with a rules heavy system than he doesn't want to play the game. Let him keep it simple, maybe throw the character something that makes things simple. Maybe he gets some item that lets him heal fully before combat. Maybe you assign some arbitrary bonus to AC, HP, to-hit, and damage to make the character useful within the specific context of the combat system.

What does he do with the rest of the game?

Rest of the game he played the "silent" type who just followed his girlfriend's character around and didn't say anything ever.

[zinycor]

Rest of the game he played the "silent" type who just followed his girlfriend's character around and didn't say anything ever.

Just give the guy a big greatsword and he should be fine, my first character was a dwarf fighter in ADnD and was just a dwarf with a shield and an axe for many sessions, in the end he got into a big development when i got more invested in the game and my character ended up marrying, getting a great fortress and with some very great loot.

[WarKitty]

Just give the guy a big greatsword and he should be fine, my first character was a dwarf fighter in ADnD and was just a dwarf with a shield and an axe for many sessions, in the end he got into a big development when i got more invested in the game and my character ended up marrying, getting a great fortress and with some very great loot.

At the style/levels we were playing, that guy would be called "bait." Especially if he spent ALL his starting gold on the highest AC possible.

[zinycor]

At the style/levels we were playing, that guy would be called "bait." Especially if he spent ALL his starting gold on the highest AC possible.

THAT's the exact definition of my first character !!! there's nothing wrong on the dude being bait, especially if he has the AC and the saving throws to pull it off, the "Big Dumb Fighter" may be a bit basic and dull, but it's amazing to introduce new players to the game. His character is dumb, doesn't make anything fancy, and doesn't talk much. but if you give him a sword good enough he will have a blast, and the rest of the party will be happy to have a dude that hits like truck and can take the damage for them.

EDIT: Now, this might prove difficult if you are playing in a very high lvl, which isn't recommended for new players at all. If this is the case i would talk to your table and propose to maybe play a lower lvl game for a while until this guy has a best grasp on the rules.

Bottom line, if the guy is having fun, and the other players enjoy his company, let him hang around and help him so he can be a better player with a better character.

[WarKitty]

THAT's the exact definition of my first character !!! there's nothing wrong on the dude being bait, especially if he has the AC and the saving throws to pull it off, the "Big Dumb Fighter" may be a bit basic and dull, but it's amazing to introduce new players to the game. His character is dumb, doesn't make anything fancy, and doesn't talk much. but if you give him a sword good enough he will have a blast, and the rest of the party will be happy to have a dude that hits like truck and can take the damage for them

Yeah, the trouble is he wouldn't put in enough work to make anything but his AC good, so he had bad saving throws and bad to-hit, and he never took any loot that could be used by anyone else so it was hard to give him items. But he didn't want someone else to put his character together.

Edit: The base problem is he didn't WANT to learn the rules. We were all new. It worked with everyone except him. There's no putting things off until the new guy learns the rules if the new guy doesn't want to have to think about rules.

[zinycor]

Yeah, the trouble is he wouldn't put in enough work to make anything but his AC good, so he had bad saving throws and bad to-hit, and he never took any loot that could be used by anyone else so it was hard to give him items. But he didn't want someone else to put his character together.

Edit: The base problem is he didn't WANT to learn the rules. We were all new. It worked with everyone except him. There's no putting things off until the new guy learns the rules if the new guy doesn't want to have to think about rules.

then he would die quite easily if he is there tanking damage, but isn't suited for tanking, he will die regardless of what his party does. As the level and dangers go up, his character will have a harder and harder time staying alive, let him die and learn to play the game the way all tanking fighters should learn it. Die until you learn it!, if it happens he will be bullied enough by his partners that he will get to learn to ask for help or learn by himself.

[Airk]

Yeah, the trouble is he wouldn't put in enough work to make anything but his AC good, so he had bad saving throws and bad to-hit, and he never took any loot that could be used by anyone else so it was hard to give him items. But he didn't want someone else to put his character together.

Edit: The base problem is he didn't WANT to learn the rules. We were all new. It worked with everyone except him. There's no putting things off until the new guy learns the rules if the new guy doesn't want to have to think about rules.

I assume you mean "we were all new ONCE"

And I'm sorry, if he's a liability, then you're failing as a GM and designing encounters as if he were a 'fully optimized' party member or something. How is he such a 'liability'? If he doesn't hurt stuff, there's not much reason for them to hit him back when other people are stabbing for way more damage. He can't possibly stand in EVERY AoE, and it's OKAY if the party says 'well, sorry, you got yourself cooked and we'll heal you when the heat is off a little'.

It seems like you guys have a VERY SPECIFIC attitude towards what you want, in addition to a player who doesn't really want to play.

Is there a reason you haven't had his SO discuss this with him? I mean, she's why he's there, and she can say "You're uninvited unless you start actually playing."

[JusticeZero]

look, if he doesn't understand the game well enough to build well, and all he wants to do is to walk in and hit people with a basic attack - well, there are a lot of people who can work with that and make that character good at doing that and living. We can even turn it into an optimization challenge - actually, that might just be worthwhile to put out there on it's own merits. "Most effective party builds with no moving parts". I think i'll start a seperate thread for that..

[zinycor]

I assume you mean "we were all new ONCE"

And I'm sorry, if he's a liability, then you're failing as a GM and designing encounters as if he were a 'fully optimized' party member or something. How is he such a 'liability'? If he doesn't hurt stuff, there's not much reason for them to hit him back when other people are stabbing for way more damage. He can't possibly stand in EVERY AoE, and it's OKAY if the party says 'well, sorry, you got yourself cooked and we'll heal you when the heat is off a little'.

It seems like you guys have a VERY SPECIFIC attitude towards what you want, in addition to a player who doesn't really want to play.

Is there a reason you haven't had his SO discuss this with him? I mean, she's why he's there, and she can say "You're uninvited unless you start actually playing."

since the OP stated that the player is having fun, i don't think that he doesn't want to play, just that he doesn't care to learn the rules, which is a very different matter.

[zinycor]

one question:

did he point-buy his stats or did he roll them? i find that for new/lazy players is better that they roll for their stats, that way they would get some bonuses on stats they didn't think they would use at all by pure luck and would be much more effective.

[Kish]

Every time you mention him being unwilling to let someone else build a character for him, you pair it with "he doesn't want to learn/doesn't want to do more than swing his sword every round," which is confusing. Was the problem that he didn't want to learn, or that he didn't want someone else to hand him an (equally simple to play but more powerful) character?

I assume you mean "we were all new ONCE"

I think a lot of people have missed that WarKitty is talking about a long-ago game, not a current one.

[Jay R]

The solution to not giving him focused loot is for the DM to include loot for two fighters.

The solution for people considering him a liability is to not be stupid - he's still absorbing some of the attacks.

The solution to his lack of interest in the rules is to live with it.

This isn't a problem. Consider him a generic henchman, and keep moving. There is no problem here.

[WarKitty]

Every time you mention him being unwilling to let someone else build a character for him, you pair it with "he doesn't want to learn/doesn't want to do more than swing his sword every round," which is confusing. Was the problem that he didn't want to learn, or that he didn't want someone else to hand him an (equally simple to play but more powerful) character?

Both, as far as I could tell. He didn't want to do more than swing a sword every round, but he also didn't want to be handed a character.

since the OP stated that the player is having fun, i don't think that he doesn't want to play, just that he doesn't care to learn the rules, which is a very different matter.

Well, the trouble in part is that he was in that stage of the relationship where he just wanted to be around his girlfriend and anything where he could sit and follow her around was great. If he hadn't gotten to sit and make doe-eyes at her all night he wouldn't have been interested one bit.

[Mr Beer]

This isn't a problem. Consider him a generic henchman, and keep moving. There is no problem here.

So much this.

[zinycor]

Both, as far as I could tell. He didn't want to do more than swing a sword every round, but he also didn't want to be handed a character.



Well, the trouble in part is that he was in that stage of the relationship where he just wanted to be around his girlfriend and anything where he could sit and follow her around was great. If he hadn't gotten to sit and make doe-eyes at her all night he wouldn't have been interested one bit.

then the solution is way simpler, don't worry about him (if he doesn't care about his character, why would you or any of the players) or explain him that he can't play with that attitude. Roleplaying isn't the best hobby to share with your GF anyway.