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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    And this is what happens when you try to apply the tier system to specific builds.
    But only specific T1 characters and specific T2 builds can break the game.
    Breaking the game has nothing to do with the tier system, this is not what it measures.
    Last edited by nedz; 2014-06-25 at 07:33 PM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Tier 1 is being able to solve any problem using class abilities. This means not only fighting, but such things as traveling huge distances overnight, building a palace or a fortress in a week, locating someone that protects himself from Scrying and Divinations using Mind Blank, saving an island city from Volcano Explosion, providing the food and drinks to a thousand-strong army in a desert, making a princess fall in love with an enemy ambassador, etc., etc..

    I seriously doubt that a paladin can do any of those using only his class abilities and skills.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Tier 1 is being able to solve any problem using class abilities. This means not only fighting, but such things as traveling huge distances overnight, building a palace or a fortress in a week, locating someone that protects himself from Scrying and Divinations using Mind Blank, saving an island city from Volcano Explosion, providing the food and drinks to a thousand-strong army in a desert, making a princess fall in love with enemy ambassador, etc., etc..

    I seriously doubt that a paladin can do any of those using only his class abilities and skills.
    Are you familiar with the Pun-Pun process and how Pazuzu favors being used by paladins?
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    Are you familiar with the Pun-Pun process and how Pazuzu favors being used by paladins?
    Yes. It involves using not paladin's class abilities.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Yes. It involves using not paladin's class abilities.
    It involves something specific to being a paladin though. By definition of what it is paladins are literally the ONLY ones that gain access to the process that early.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    It involves something specific to being a paladin though. By definition of what it is paladins are literally the ONLY ones that gain access to the process that early.
    Doesn't matter - calling Pazuzu is not listed on Paladin's list of class abilities. Furthermore, Candle of Invocations is not his class ability either. It is abuse of external entities and items - any lucky commoner can do the same (with some Aid another and circumstance bonuses).
    Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Not really. Pazazu can work for any class. Paladin was chosen because of a fluff line about how Pazazu particularly likes to see paladins fall, and because it was funny to make Pun-Pun a paladin.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Doesn't matter - calling Pazuzu is not listed on Paladin's list of class abilities. Furthermore, Candle of Invocations is not his class ability either. It is abuse of external entities and items - any lucky commoner can do the same (with some Aid another and circumstance bonuses).
    And that matters even less. Is Pazuzu more likely to work for paladins yes or no? That's the only relevant part of the discussion.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Tiers are statistical measures, not specific measures. Any one particular build or small set of builds is irrelevant to the tier of a class.

    The average over all possible Paladin builds at all possible levels might involve a handful of Pun-Puns, but so does most everything else - maybe at Lv3 instead of Lv1, or at Lv7, or whatever. So all those Pun-Puns cancel out of the overall evaluation, and even if they didn't they represent a small fraction of the build-space.

    The thing that makes a Wizard Tier 1 is not that there exists a single optimal wizard build that can do anything, but that on average a random wizard build found in actual play will have options either at hand or easily available that allow the character to address pretty much any situation, often better than the specialists. The reason this happens is that for any wizard, access to any spell on a permanent basis is just a matter of a little time and a little gold - that effect tends to mean that even intentionally bad wizard builds are not very far away from their solutions (the exception being Int-dumped wizards, perhaps). Whereas if you intentionally choose bad feats and maneuvers for a Tome of Battle character, its harder to repair that deficiency.

    So if we do want to discuss the Tier of Pun-Pun, we would have to define what build choices we're averaging over in some meaningful way. Perhaps a better example would be to ask what Tier a reptilian character with a Sarrukh follower would be - averaging over all other parameters of that combo (class choice, feat choice, etc), we'd find that the character can at any time contrive to obtain any ability, much like the situation with the Wizard except more extreme since in some readings of the rules this includes abilities that do not yet exist ('the DM must buy this character's player a soda every time an enemy takes a standard action' and other absurdities).

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    And that matters even less. Is Pazuzu more likely to work for paladins yes or no? That's the only relevant part of the discussion.
    I'd say Binder or Warlock has a much better chance of getting any demon to grant him a Wish. And a commoner can stumble upon a self-resetting Wish trap. Neither of those are relevant to tier discussion - external entities and items are not class abilities.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Yeah, again, paladin was chosen for Pun-Pun more because it was funny than anything else. From Fiendish Codex I:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex I
    Temptation (Su): If a creature utters the name "Pazazu" three times in succession, an unholy link between the speaker and Pazazu is immediately established...

    ...Once he arrives, Pazazu asks the speaker why he called upon the Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms. Pazazu almost always agrees to provide aid, but if he does, the caller's alignment shifts one step closer to chaotic. If the caller's alignment is already chaotic, it instead shifts one step closer to evil. These shifts in alignment are considered voluntary. Pazazu never provides aid to chaotic evil creatures and often punishes them for calling upon his aid rather than using the tools he has likely already granted the creature in question.
    The section about paladins states that Pazazu particularly enjoys corrupting paladins, but as it states above, Pazazu almost always agrees to provide aid. You can be a wizard or a commoner, and as long as you're not chaotic evil, Pazazu is likely to work. And in any case, Pun-Pun was a wizard before he was a paladin, and a psion before he was a wizard. What makes Pun-Pun Pun-Pun is Manipulate Form, and there are a bunch of ways to get access to that.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by amalcon View Post
    This seems to prove my point that it's not exactly easy. You're specifying a race (Gray Elves are a decent race, but hardly head and shoulders above other Wizard races),
    Grey Elf gives a whopping +1 to spellcraft relative to any race without an INT penalty. It also provides another use of metamagic effect, and elven generalist pairs well with Incantatrix, which is why I chose it as the base race. Would you rather human, for a 50 spellcraft?
    using Dragon Magazine material twice,
    So are we talking about something being difficult, or a DM banning certain methods and making it difficult? Also, see the last part.
    giving up resources worth 8 points of initiative (a Feat plus familiar selection, which if you use the Dragon Magazine issue with moths could be a hummingbird),
    I honestly don't see this as a huge cost, especially for what it gives. And if you think initiative is so precious, you're probably taking Improved Initiative either way. The cost of taking Shape Soulmeld is whatever feat you'd actually give up to get it, i.e. your worst feat.
    assuming availability of some masterwork Spellcraft tool
    Really? I mean, the dragon stuff I can see criticizing, but this?
    and assuming that a Spellcraft check is the sort of thing your familiar can Aid Another with (Aid Another includes a DM arbitration clause, "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial...").
    The familiar is actually really good at spellcraft as well, and it's practically an extension of the caster. Give me a good argument as to why it shouldn't be able to aid another.
    Sure, you managed, but by using basically every resource but homebrew and variant rules, and at significant cost (the +8 initiative delta).
    I didn't just "manage." I beat a DC 39 (your listed challenge) by 12 without using a competence item, or a cleric buddy, or just UMDing wands. In fact, that was my point - so that if you wanted to nitpick a particular part of how I got a particular bonus, you could in fact just throw it out entirely and still beat the DC.
    Edit: For comparison, the Psycarnum Metamagic trick uses five feats (Wild Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Midnight Metamagic, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy Metamagic), one of which can come from race selection. Incantatrix costs one (Iron Will) plus a school of spells (more valuable than a feat) and the above optimization costs the equivalent of three (race, familiar, actual feat). Psycarnum Metamagic does come online a lot later, but it lets you make literally as many persistent spells as you like, so call that a wash.
    1. No more complaining about dragon magazine material.
    2. Five feats is a lot.
    3. You can buy Iron Will.
    4. This comes online once you can put 4 essentia into a feat normally, that is, level 18.
    And, drumroll...
    5. It only affects one spell per day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Metamagic
    Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know. Each spell to be affected requires the investment of a number of essentia equal to the normal spell level adjustment required by the metamagic feat (minimum 1 point of essentia).
    Emphasis mine.

    If you're going to say Incantatrix is lame, at least use Anima Mage as a comparison.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    5. It only affects one spell per day.
    Keep reading - it can be invested in once per day, but you can divide the essentia you put in among different spells. This doesn't actually matter though, because using Psycarnum Focus you never actually invest essentia - the soulmeld is merely treated as having been invested for a round, and then goes flat again.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Keep reading - it can be invested in once per day, but you can divide the essentia you put in among different spells. This doesn't actually matter though, because using Psycarnum Focus you never actually invest essentia - the soulmeld is merely treated as having been invested for a round, and then goes flat again.
    The maximum capacity is still going to be 5, meaning it's "treated" as having 5 essentia... enough to persist one spell.
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    The maximum capacity is still going to be 5, meaning it's "treated" as having 5 essentia... enough to persist one spell.
    Yeah, and then on the next turn, you recover psionic focus and infuse it again. Because you are not actually investing any essentia, goes the thinking, the 1/day thing never comes into play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Yeah, and then on the next turn, you recover psionic focus and infuse it again. Because you are not actually investing any essentia, goes the thinking, the 1/day thing never comes into play.
    Interesting thought, but the 1/day comes into play for more than allocating essentia:
    Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.
    Emphasis mine. The one time the caster gets to "choose one or more spells [...] to apply the effect of a metamagic feat," he has 5 effective essentia to work with. After that, he can fill the essentia receptacle, but he can't choose the spells.
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    I only used Pun Pun to counter Flickerdart's argument that Tier 1 was about characters who can break the game. I was slightly concerned that this argument might derail the thread - which it has.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    I will use this crowbar of words to move the railtracks back in place.

    On a more serious note, I think the problem is "defining" tier 0. Since it seems most people, robots, tentacle monsters, and other races represented here on this forum are in agreement that tiers are class based on equal levels of optimization, and a tier 0 class does not currently exist, that seems to be the place to start.

    I think a good starting place is took at classic tier 1 classes, druid, wizard, and cleric and explain how the proposed class can do anything more than these classes can to solve encounters. If it can't, it does not go above tier 1. If it can, we have to make a consensus on a breakpoint between tier 1 and tier 0 (or tier 1+ or whatever it will be called).
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Agreed.

    It might be useful to revisit the definition of Tier 1 — from here
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK's Tier list for classes.
    Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

    Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)
    My observation was that most of these classes are required to have prepared their options ahead of time, even if that's just 15 minutes. A character who has all of the same options available on the fly might be a higher tier. Preparation can fail for all manner of reasons.

    Now there might be other criteria ?

    I also mentioned characters who can nova and cast 10-20 spells a round. But is this a higher tier, or just more of the same ?

    There are also a number of PrCs which people have rated as +1, or more, tiers. E.g. Incantatrix. Now these are powerful classes, but do they actually exceed T1 ?
    π = 4
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    I would say it all falls under tier 1. I think the breakpoint for 1 to 0 (or what have you) should be gaining tier 1 capabilities ahead of the normal curve (spell level * 2 - 1) for tier 1 classes. Maybe inbetween 1 and 0 is 1+ which is classes that are tier 1, but with more powerful capabilities such as unlimited casts per day (StP Erudite) or ways to adapt by changing prepped spells, or having spontaneous casting of an entire tier 1 list.

    edit:
    Additionally, prestigies could bring a class from tier 1 to tier 1+, such as incantitrix.
    Last edited by ddude987; 2014-06-26 at 08:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
    So if a class has Manipulate Form as class ability he will be tier 0.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
    So if a class has Manipulate Form as class ability he will be tier 0.
    +1
    Manipulate Form is stronger than tier 1 and exists in the game, if a class gave something equivalent it would be stronger than the tier 1 classes.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    There is no denying manipulate form as a class feature would make the class stronger than tier 1 classes but that isn't defining what makes a class tier 0. Defining the bare minimum requirement for a class to be "tier 0" as "having the manipulate form ability" feels to specific.
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
    This seems like a good starting point. Tier 1 is about as powerful as you can get when working within the core RAI*. Tier 0, then, must break the fundamental assumptions of the rules somehow.


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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    There is no denying manipulate form as a class feature would make the class stronger than tier 1 classes but that isn't defining what makes a class tier 0. Defining the bare minimum requirement for a class to be "tier 0" as "having the manipulate form ability" feels to specific.
    Tier 0: has ability to change game rules and restrictions not only for itself, but for others, too: Dark Chaos Shuffle, Manipulate Form, Psychic Reformation, Psychic Chirurgery, Corpse Crafter.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-26 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    So classes that have those on their spell list are tier 0 by this definition?
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    If we're measuring specific builds, wouldn't it just be simpler to borrow the Test of Spite tiers?

    It seems to me that a great deal of this thread is disagreement caused by people not distinguishing between the ToS tiers (which classify builds) and JaronK's tiers (which classify classes).

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    So pun pun is tier -2... as stated earlier
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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    So classes that have those on their spell list are tier 0 by this definition?
    Those are examples of existing abilities that can modify rules and abilities in that way. But to make a class tier 0 you'd need some certain minimal amount of such abilities, so that those changes are relevant in most or all campaign situations. Chirurgery is great - but with no one having psionic powers besides you it is wasted. Same with Corpse Crafter - with no undead it is useless.

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    Default Re: Would this be tier 0?

    Here's a class for evaluation against the 'Tier 0' rubrick.

    Reality-Shaper
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    Fort/Reflex/Will/BAB/Skill Points/HD: Irrelevant for this discussion
    Class Features: Irrelevant for this discussion, except for...

    Reality Shaping Class Feature Rule: A Reality-Shaper gets access to powers called 'Exclusions', 'Inclusions', and 'Revisions' which they can use to change the rules
    of the game in specific ways. They gain access to new abilities as per a spellcasting progression (Wizard, for concreteness), with
    new levels of these abilities coming online at Lv1,3,5,etc

    Reality Shaping Ability Learning Rule: A Reality-Shaper gains three known abilities each level. Multiple copies of a single ability can be taken.

    Reality Shaping Application Rule: A given Exclusion, Inclusion, or Revision can only be applied in a single fashion at a time. For example: If a Revision is used to change one rule, that same Revision cannot be used to change another, different rule until the first usage is turned off.

    Reality Shaping Range: The range of a Reality-Shaper's effects is 20ft per level, beyond which reality goes back to normal.

    Overlapping Auras: When two Reality-Shaper auras overlap in a way such that they are mutually contradictory, dominance is established with an opposed Charisma+Reality-Shaper level check. The winner's aura remains dominant in areas of overlap for 24 hours.

    Exclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Exclusion prevents some particular ability or rule from functioning within the Reality-Shaper's aura.

    Spoiler: Example Exclusions
    Show


    Discriminatory Rules (Reality-Shaper 1)
    Pick a particular [Type] or [Sub-Type] of creature - all benefits from that type or sub-type are suppressed.

    Mundanes Cannot Have Nice Things (Reality-Shaper 2)
    Within the Reality-Shaper's aura, characters cannot make attacks that are not somehow supernatural, either via weapon enchantments (or having the attack itself magically buffed), or by virtue of being a spell.

    Gravity is just the Fevered Dream of a Madman (Reality-Shaper 3)
    Creatures do not fall.

    Don't All Attack At Once (Reality-Shaper 4)
    No one target can be attacked by more than one person in each round.

    School Ban (Reality-Shaper 5)
    All magic of a specified school cannot be cast or have any effect within the Reality-Shaper's aura. Existing spell effects of this school are temporarily suppressed.

    Classism (Reality-Shaper 6)
    You can completely shut down all powers of a single class and turn levels in that class into dead levels within your aura.

    But I don't want to die at -10 (Reality-Shaper 8)
    Creatures cannot die of hitpoint damage within the Reality-Shaper's field

    Apotheosis (Reality-Shaper 9)
    Any single specific piece of bolded rules-text can be disabled.


    Inclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Inclusion creates some new rule that anyone within the Reality-Shaper's aura can take advantage of.

    Spoiler: Example Inclusions
    Show

    Nose Goes (Reality-Shaper 1)
    Pick a specific kind of roll and a specific out-of-character action. Anyone who performs the specified out-of-character action while making the specific kind of roll gains a bonus to the roll equal to your Reality-Shaper class level.

    New Feat (Reality-Shaper 2)
    Invent a new feat in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take this feat. If they leave your aura, the feat is not lost but is suppressed until they return.

    New Skill (Reality-Shaper 3)
    Invent a new skill in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take ranks of and use this skill. If they leave your aura, the ranks are not lost but are suppressed until they return.

    New Class (Reality-Shaper 4)
    Your aura makes a particular bit of homebrew into a reality. Design a new class with the DM - people within your aura can take this new class, which reverts to racial HD if they leave your aura (but repairs to the new class if they re-enter).

    The Chain Rule (Reality-Shaper 5)
    New Rule: Anyone within your aura gains a Reality-Shaper field 5ft in radius that counts as your aura.

    Fighter Fix (Reality-Shaper 6)
    You may insert a class feature from an existing class into another class at whatever level you choose.

    New Physics (Reality-Shaper 7)
    With the DM, create a new planar environment tag. Your aura has this environment tag.

    Win Button (Reality-Shaper 9)
    When one of the following conditions (choose one) holds, you have won the encounter and your immediate enemies are forced by the rules to step down and cease hindering you. This also applies in reverse, so be careful.

    - There are twice as many allies remaining than enemies remaining.
    - You and your allies are all clustered adjacent to eachother and are all at least 800ft away from each of your starting positions at the beginning of the encounter.
    - 6 rounds pass from the start of combat.
    - An ally character casts the same spell for three consecutive rounds (quickened/etc don't count as an extra round).
    - Designate one character on your side as the 'leader' (the enemies will do the same). If the leader falls, its over.


    Revisions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. A Revision can alter a specific rules-term into a different rules-term in a particular rule.

    Spoiler: Example Revisions
    Show


    Rock Paper Scissors Spock (Reality-Shaper 1)
    You can replace the type of save of an effect with a different type of save.

    Interchangeable Parts (Reality-Shaper 1)
    You can replace a stat used by or referred to by an ability with a different stat.

    Fudging the Numbers (Reality-Shaper 2)
    Choose any number that appears in a rule and increase or decrease it by 1.

    Misspell (Reality-Shaper 2)
    You can change one letter of one rule. The resultant rule must be composed of correctly
    spelled words and grammatically correct structures in English.

    Damage Mastery (Reality-Shaper 3)
    You can replace one damage type with another in any rule (for DR, resistances, immunities, damage dealt, etc).

    A matter of units (Reality-Shaper 3)
    You can change the units on a measurement in a single rule. The old and new units
    must belong to the allowed list. The allowed units are:

    Distance: inches, feet, meters
    Long Distance: furlongs (1/8 mile), miles, leagues (3.4 miles)
    Short Times: seconds, rounds, minutes
    Long Times: hours, days, weeks
    Weights: ounces (1/16th of a pound), lbs, kg (2.2lbs)
    Currency: sp, gp, pp

    Re-requisite (Reality-Shaper 4)
    You can change one prerequisite to a feat or class to whatever you like. Those who do not qualify for the new rules-text lose access to those abilities.

    Action Stock Market (Reality-Shaper 5)
    You can change the type of activation action for an ability either up or down one category:

    Immediate <-> Swift <-> Move <-> Standard <-> Full Round

    If you take this ability multiple times, they can stack.

    REDACTED (Reality-Shaper 6)
    Exclude a single word from any rule.

    Character Rewrite (Reality-Shaper 8)
    Pick one character - while in your aura, you can choose to alter one of:

    - Their narrative function (hero, villain, etc)
    - Their build (broad strokes - swap out all Wizard levels for Fighter)
    - Their relationships with other NPCs (Luke, I am your father [now]!)




    So, Tier 0?

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