Systems with a good blocking/parrying system?

[Doorhandle]

Title says basically everything. It seems like system for blocking, dodging and parrying are nearly necessary in many video games (ex. Being the best way to easily kill enemies in a straight-up-fight from assassin's creed 1-4), but are always the sub-par option in tabletop games (ex. why would I want 2+ to my ac when I can just 1-hit the bastard with my sword?). So are there any games which buck this trend?

[LibraryOgre]

Hackmaster is pretty good.

Normal defense is a d20p (p indicates that the die roll penetrates; when you roll a maximum value, you roll again, adding the new roll -1. Roll max again, and you keep rolling until you don't). However, you aren't usually rolling a d20p, while the attacker almost always is.

If you are using a two-handed weapon, you'll roll d20p against one attack. Any other attacks between your own attacks and you roll d20p-4 (in addition to your defense bonuses).

If you're using two weapons, and attacking with both, you'll roll a d10p... and you only get defense bonuses from the primary weapon.

If you're using two weapons, and defending with one, you roll a d20p against the first attack, and a d20p-4 against all others. But you get the defense bonus from both weapons.

If you're fighting sword and board, you get several advantages. You roll a d20p for most defenses. Shields add between 2 and 6 points to your defense roll, so you have an effective bonus of 6-10 points. Now, attacks that miss you by less than 10 points will do a shield hit, which inflicts less damage (some weapons doing only a point plus bonuses on a shield hit, some, like the battle axe, still doing substantial damage), but the shield hit damage is reduced by your shield's Damage Reduction before it reaches you. If you're using a medium shield (+6 defense), though, anything that is a shield hit would've been a full hit for a shieldless person.

Shields ALSO provide cover from missile weapons... while everyone defends against missile weapons with a d20p and no bonuses (if you're moving; it drops to d12p with no bonuses if you're not), shields all have cover values... basically, an automatic saving throw to turn any ranged attack into a shield hit... and ranged weapons tend to do crap shield damage.

Choosing not to use a shield in Hackmaster, especially for a frontline fighter, is a big decision. You might do better damage... a longsword is 2d8p, and a greatsword is 2d12p+3... but be sure your cleric loves you, because you're going to be taking a lot of damage, and your defense roll gets worse as your armor gets more encumbering.

[Orderic]

In The Dark Eye you have a stat for each weapon type (Swords, Two-handed Swords, Spears, etc) and each point in a weapon stat gives you a point that you can spend on either attack or parry with this weapon. These points are added to a base value that is calculated from your attributes and when you attack or parry, you have to roll under this number with a d20.

This allows for characters who can be focused either on parrying or attacking, which, combined with special abilities, may lead to some interesting fights. Feinting for example is quite simple: You take a penalty on your attack and the oponent gets the same on his parry. If you hit. If you want to focus on parrying, you could take a penalty on parry in order to increase your next attack, disarm your opponent, destroy his weapon, lock weapons, attack your enemy while he is attacking you and hope that you are better, use the force of an enemies maneuver against him...

Of course, the system is a convoluted mess ant to even play with the entire system you need five books... Although for mundane characters two are sufficient. (One entire book of more than 300 pages just for character creation. Need I say more)


Should I have used the wrong terms for things I apologize, but I have only played it in german. Translations may not be how the game is translated.

[I3igAl]

In The Dark Eye you have a stat for each weapon type (Swords, Two-handed Swords, Spears, etc) and each point in a weapon stat gives you a point that you can spend on either attack or parry with this weapon. These points are added to a base value that is calculated from your attributes and when you attack or parry, you have to roll under this number with a d20.

This allows for characters who can be focused either on parrying or attacking, which, combined with special abilities, may lead to some interesting fights. Feinting for example is quite simple: You take a penalty on your attack and the oponent gets the same on his parry. If you hit. If you want to focus on parrying, you could take a penalty on parry in order to increase your next attack, disarm your opponent, destroy his weapon, lock weapons, attack your enemy while he is attacking you and hope that you are better, use the force of an enemies maneuver against him...

Of course, the system is a convoluted mess ant to even play with the entire system you need five books... Although for mundane characters two are sufficient. (One entire book of more than 300 pages just for character creation. Need I say more)


Should I have used the wrong terms for things I apologize, but I have only played it in german. Translations may not be how the game is translated.

Yeah I would also have a look at the Dark Eye. The Combat System is really Parry Heavy and can be quite fun IMO.
The system has it's weaknesses however. It's really complicated and only the Basic ruleset of an old edition exists in English.

[Zejety]

One entire book of more than 300 pages just for character creation. Need I say more

I'm not trying to defend The Dark Eye from being called complex (it is) but this seems a bit unfair.
The book is long but...

1. it has a lot of fluff in it. It describes all races and cultures in quite a bit of details (1+ pages for races, half a page for cultures, of which there are many).
2. it includes everything you'll ever need for character creation (except -for some odd reason- equipment prices). There are no spells or feats to be found in dozens of splatbooks. Granted, the detailed spell descriptions are in the magic book but everything you need for creation is there. (Exception: They did release a few books at the end of the system's life cycle that introduced a few new spells)
3. Character creation is supposed to be very fluff-based so you usually start with an idea in mind. The book is that big because it includes a lot of options, not because the creation is THAT complicated (although it still is compared to most systems TBH). There's pages upon pages of professions (classes) like merchant, author and beggar. You do not need to read them all because their names usually gives you a good idea what they are about.

[obryn]

Feng Shui is tops here, IMO. I need to explain how combat basically works to explain it, though.

At its most basic level, combat is divided into sequences - which are kind of like D&D rounds, but not really. Initiative is rolled every round by adding 1d6 to your Speed stat, giving you a number of Shots for the sequence.

Let's say the Maverick Cop's first Shot is at 10. The Cyborg Gorilla he's chasing is acting at Shot 8.

You count down, starting at the highest Shot. In this case, at 10, the Maverick Cop goes first. Yelling, "Time to stop the monkey business!" he fires his trusty .357 at the Cyber-Ape. That costs him 3 shots (almost everything does), which means his next shot is 7. You usually track this on a little Shot Counter you keep in front of you; it's not nearly as complicated as it seems.

So when the Cyber-Ape's turn comes up, a massive chaingun pops out of his left arm, and he starts firing rapidly at the Maverick Cop. The Cop decides now might be a good time to use an active dodge, and spends 1 shot to increase his Defense by 3 against that single attack.

This nicely turns what would otherwise be a hit into a miss, and the Maverick Cop's new next Shot is 6. Fortunately, because the Cyber-Ape's next Shot is at 5, the Cop gets to pull off another nice shot with his trusty sidearm ...

And so on.

Basically, the Shot Counter keeps everything dynamic, and the Shot Cost of a dodge or parry lets it interact really interestingly with the flow of combat.

[Segev]

It is a clunky system in many other ways, but Exalted 2e had a distinction between Dodge and Parry Defensive Values that was decent.

Dodge was generally innately higher, but weapons (and shields) all had a stat which was added to the Parry DV of anybody wielding them. They also ran off of different skills. So if you were skilled with your weapon and it had a decent parry stat, it was often better for you to parry attacks than to dodge them. Otherwise, you typically dodge.

Notably, there are some things which are "unblockable" or "undodgeable" attacks; these obviate one (but not the other) of the DVs, reducing it to 0. (There are other attacks which are both unblockable and undodgeable, and so you're pretty much screwed if you don't have magical defenses which let you block the unblockable or dodge the undodgeable. This is one of the areas where Exalted 2e starts to show its flaws.)

[Eisenheim]

Fate does fairly well, IMO. It has active defense for all attacks, with different skills available depending on the type of attack. I haven't met something I don't think fate handles well yet, though.

7th sea is quite good; it has active and passive defenses. Passive defense is a static number based on skill, active defense requires you to have an action available when the attack lands, or to burn 2 actions from later in the turn, but lets you roll an opposed check. There are also options available to significantly boost your active defense, or to get a free attack if you succeed with it, if you play a combat focused character.

[Airk]

I think the reason you don't usually see systems for this is because the requirements for a tabletop RPG and a video game are very different.

The major problems with a parry/block system are:

A) If you can do it all the time, it just turns attacking into an attack roll/defense roll arrangement, which basically means combat takes twice as long (generally undesirable)
B) If you CAN'T do it all the time, you need some sort of expendable resource to keep track of when you can and can't do it - AND you are still extending the duration of your combat significantly.

So I have questions for the OP:

#1: What do you believe makes a 'good' dodge/parry system?
#2: Why do you believe such a system is of value in a TTRPG?

[Doorhandle]

#1: What do you believe makes a 'good' dodge/parry system?

Good question I’ll admit. Something that makes doing something other than constantly attacking whenever you can actually worthwhile, without slowing the game too much. Admittedly, the reverse (Exalted 2e) also seems like a bad idea.

I also think that parrying should be high risk/high reward, while dodging/blocking should be more reasonable.

#2: Why do you believe such a system is of value in a TTRPG?

See the above basically. It also allows more variety in tactics/powers as well, as you can have other feats that work of the parry/dodge mechanics.

[Anxe]

GURPS also has a dodge/parry/block system, but Hackmaster seems to have what you want. Without a shield in Hackmaster you're limited in how many times you can parry between attacks. And parrying can have big rewards in Hackmaster as well (occasional free hits). It doesn't penalize you for parrying though and it doesn't make you choose between parrying and dodging. It seems like you wanted those things factored in as well.

Still, Hackmaster seems like the best fit I know of.

[Morty]

As usual while looking for a good model of armed combat, Riddle of Steel needs to be mentioned. It has a detailed system for such exchanges, which includes blocking and parrying. Over-focusing on offence is a good way to get yourself killed, as well.

[Dienekes]

Riddle of Steel. Fast paced, fairly accurate, medieval style combat. Interactions between combatants happen at the same time with initiative determining which swing goes first. You determine how much of your action is focused on attack and how much is for defense. As you gain training in your preferred fighting method you get abilities like block and parry that may cost some of your allotted dice but allow you to perform more complex maneuvers and transition from attacks more smoothly. Shields can be used to actively block or passively provide cover to certain sections of the body. A strong enough parry can increase your initiative in the next attack phase or completely open your opponent up for an attack. It's a really fun dynamic system.

[Morty]

It should be noted that Riddle of Steel is very hard to get nowadays, since the company that made it went belly-up. But they're working on a spiritual successor of sorts called Song of Swords.

[Knaight]

Burning Wheel is also pretty solid here. There are blocks, feints, locking up weapons, etc. All come in, all are relevant, and just spamming attacks is a great way to get killed.

[Dienekes]

It should be noted that Riddle of Steel is very hard to get nowadays, since the company that made it went belly-up. But they're working on a spiritual successor of sorts called Song of Swords.

This is one of the very few times I would suggest looking for it through means outside of buying it.

[Rockphed]

This is one of the very few times I would suggest looking for it through means outside of buying it.

Somebody owns the copywrite. If you can figure out who, you can probably convince them to sell PDFs.

[Cikomyr]

I know I liked WFRP's combat system, especially 2nd Edition.

[obryn]

I know I liked WFRP's combat system, especially 2nd Edition.

WFRP2e led to too many whiffs for my taste.

[Cikomyr]

WFRP2e led to too many whiffs for my taste.

Please elaborate. "Whiffs"?

[Airk]

Please elaborate. "Whiffs"?

It means "misses" (or "total misses").

Basically, if your combat rounds are:

"Okay, roll to hit." "I miss"
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I succeed, I parry."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I fail." "Okay, roll soak." "I soak, no damage."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I miss"
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I succeed, I parry."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I fail." "Okay, roll soak." "I soak, no damage."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I miss"
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I succeed, I parry."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I fail." "Okay, roll soak." "I soak, no damage."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I miss"
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I succeed, I parry."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I fail." "Okay, roll soak." "I soak, no damage."
"Okay, roll to hit." "I hit." "Roll parry." "I fail." "Okay, roll soak." "I fail my soak and take 2 damage."

Then the system has too many whiffs. :P

I would actually argue that the reason a parry/block system is completely STUPID is that if you are standing in front of me, neither parrying nor blocking, the odds of me somehow "missing" you with a sword are laughably low.

So if you want to have a parry/block system, you should probably dispense with the hit roll.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Burning Wheel is also pretty solid here. There are blocks, feints, locking up weapons, etc. All come in, all are relevant, and just spamming attacks is a great way to get killed.

Also, its cousins/descendants Mouse Guard and Torchbearer have a simpler form of the conflict system that keeps the Attack/Block/Feint relationships.

[obryn]

Please elaborate. "Whiffs"?

Yeah, what Airk said. There were altogether too many attacks where nothing really happens. Between a generally low starting chance to hit, a similar chance to parry, and a strong possibility none of that matters because armor soaked up everything ... it wasn't as fun as I was hoping. It took too long to reach the conclusion, "nothing happened." And on most attacks, nothing happened.

[Knaight]

Yeah, what Airk said. There were altogether too many attacks where nothing really happens. Between a generally low starting chance to hit, a similar chance to parry, and a strong possibility none of that matters because armor soaked up everything ... it wasn't as fun as I was hoping. It took too long to reach the conclusion, "nothing happened." And on most attacks, nothing happened.

This is one of the things I like about Fudge. It's an opposed roll, and the winner almost always hits - unless both combatants roll really, really terribly. The only wiffs come up in ties, though the optional stance rules can make them more common when both people are being defensive - though use of offensive stances can easily result in both people smacking each other. Plus, by winning the opposed roll you prevent the opponent's hit, which is a built in block/parry system.

[Wytwyld]

Anima: Beyond Fantasy has a in-depth Parry and dodge system that allows for counterattacks. The better you parry, the bigger bonus you get to counter.

The game is a little math heavy until you get used to it though.

[Morty]

Yeah, what Airk said. There were altogether too many attacks where nothing really happens. Between a generally low starting chance to hit, a similar chance to parry, and a strong possibility none of that matters because armor soaked up everything ... it wasn't as fun as I was hoping. It took too long to reach the conclusion, "nothing happened." And on most attacks, nothing happened.

Yes, that's a problem I ran into myself when I was running the system some years ago. Percentile rolls are prone to doing that if they're not kept in check. It helps if the combatants use all-out attacks a lot - not only do they hit more easily, but they also can't dodge or parry. But it doesn't always work.

[Doleth]

Anima doesn't really have passive defense though, you're always parrying or dodging. It's not too bad math wise unless you're using the Core Exxet revision, since all you have to do is calculate the difference between attack check and defense check then compare to a table(Core Exxet either removed the table or hid it later in the book, instead only giving the formula behind it). If the defender wins and still has some action left, they get a counterattack with a bonus depending of the difference. If the attacker wins, they deal damage depending on how well they rolled and the armor the defender wears. There's also a table if you can't be bothered to calculate how much damage you deal. Most character will either be good at parrying or dodging, it's not really worth the points to raise both. If I remember correctly, dodging rarely gets penalties, but parrying is a bit easier to raise and in both case, at some point you get so good at it that it doesn't make a difference which you pick.

[Airk]

Yes, that's a problem I ran into myself when I was running the system some years ago. Percentile rolls are prone to doing that if they're not kept in check. It helps if the combatants use all-out attacks a lot - not only do they hit more easily, but they also can't dodge or parry. But it doesn't always work.

While I'm not familiar with the system in question, I don't think it has anything to do with it being percentile. (Disclaimer: I'm not actually a big fan of percentiles because I think they complicate the math without adding anything, but that's not relevant here.) - While a percentile is a big, flat range, what determines whiffs is not how big the range is, but how big the random range is relative to the static bonuses and modifiers and target numbers. They're no more "prone" to this problem than any other flat number range - like the d20.

[Knaight]

REIGN is pretty good here. Generally among sloppier combatants (aggregate skills of about 2-4) you see either parries or attacks in any given round. Parrying is pretty useful, as one parry can block multiple attacks, but good enough attacks get through - however, where this gets interesting is that one can parry for other people, which creates an interesting team dynamic, wherein one person is focusing more on defense while someone else hits - which is plenty realistic, though that's generally more about maneuvering and forcing an opponent into a defense against one person while the other exploits that than parrying per se. Moreover, getting an attack through can break an opponents attack, so there's that dynamic wherein one doesn't need to parry, because one has effectively forced their opponent onto defense.. More skilled fighters (aggregate skills of about 6-8, no martial talents) often do multiple actions, including an attack and parry. The very skilled (aggregate skills of 6-10, expert dice or master dice, actual martial talents) start bringing out all sorts of fun things.

[Morty]

While I'm not familiar with the system in question, I don't think it has anything to do with it being percentile. (Disclaimer: I'm not actually a big fan of percentiles because I think they complicate the math without adding anything, but that's not relevant here.) - While a percentile is a big, flat range, what determines whiffs is not how big the range is, but how big the random range is relative to the static bonuses and modifiers and target numbers. They're no more "prone" to this problem than any other flat number range - like the d20.

That's true, any flat curve can produce such results. And in WFRP 2e, both the roll to hit and the roll to dodge of parry are rolled against static values that are independent of each other - so there's that too.