EMPIRE! CWBG VII: Dancing With Headless Princesses! (Fish, Saffron & Ginger Edition)

[Elemental]

In regards to starting position I would like to ask you not choose Wenyavuk because I've been trying for a while to negotiate for its reunification with my nation of the Heartwaste. If you absolutely want it, that can work into something fun and I understand but speaking from a purely personal level I know I'd like to be given the chance to get it and build on the fluff I've read quite a few times already.

Technically, it's impossible for Wenyavuk to reunify with the Heartwaste as they were never united. I did always find the statement of the people of the Heartwaste being the sixth tribe of Wenyavuk to be spurious at best.


Also, unrelated: Why does everyone assume Ashenites have few children? The current king has five, the king I started the game with had seven and his third daughter had five again. I think you'll find that the number of children Ashenite royalty ends up with is as variable as everyone else.

[Morph Bark]

Also, unrelated: Why does everyone assume Ashenites have few children? The current king has five, the king I started the game with had seven and his third daughter had five again. I think you'll find that the number of children Ashenite royalty ends up with is as variable as everyone else.

If you mean with regards to my last IC comment on Ambryn's behalf at the Grand Ball, that was more for her twin sister than the Toranaths.

On unrelated note, how would you feel about a thousand friendly foreigners suddenly travelling through (but not settling in) Ashenia?

[Elemental]

If you mean with regards to my last IC comment on Ambryn's behalf at the Grand Ball, that was more for her twin sister than the Toranaths.

On unrelated note, how would you feel about a thousand friendly foreigners suddenly travelling through (but not settling in) Ashenia?

It seems to be more of a general thing. I suppose people just think Ashenites are a bunch of prudes, which I suppose they are in comparison to some of the more liberal peoples of Telluris.

A thousand friendly foreigners travelling through? Any particular reason for it?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Round 20 Stats!

Kingdom of the Burning Mountains - Inactive for 2 Rounds.

Celero - +2 Curiosity

Triad Legislator (Q) - +3 Curiosity, C5.

Triad Judicator (Z) - Inactive for 1 round.

Triad Executor (I) - +1 Military, +2 Curiosity.

Hurosha Empire - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Military, +1 Curiosity. New Ruler - Wayve

Faedas - +1 Curiosity, +1 Faith

Calorum - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Faith. D5 (7A)

Raaneka - Has gone NPC!

Empire of Dawn - +2 Military.

Razdis - +1 Military, +1 Curiosity. M5, C10

Guilder - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Curiosity. New Ruler - Inigo of Guilder!

Pryonia - Has gone NPC!

Bordeux - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Military.

Kingdom of Ashenia – +2 Diplomacy, +1 Curiosity

AQUA – +1 Diplomacy, +1 Faith.

Alydaxis - +1 Curiosity, +1 Faith. F5

Salterri Empire - +1 Military, +2 Curiosity. C5

Priory of Ascension - +2 Military, +1 Curiosity. C5

Niskovia - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Faith, D5 (74, 77)

Fera - +1 Military, +1 Curiosity

Sycia - Inactive for 5 Rounds! However, locals near its borders are detecting activity!

Glazfell - +2 Military, +1 Curiosity.

Kingdom of the Carmine Sea - +1 Military, +1 Curiosity. D10

Palas Caercia - +1 Diplomacy, +1 Curiosity.

Pavonia - +1 Curiosity, +1 Faith. New Ruler - William Adolph Adam Wolfendyne

Tzalteclan – +1 Military, +1 Curiosity.

The Broken Enclave - +2 Curiosity. C5, C10

Sangela - +3 Diplomacy, +1 Military, +1 Curiosity.

Since they got confused for their first round, I'm re ordering the actions to make it work. Great project actions 1 - 4 are counted as their preactions, and their 2 actions of the minor project slpit between their preround and their 1st round.

Ri Chugang - +2 Curiosity

---

All players get +1 to Active Rounds save The Kingdom of the Burning Mountains, the Judicator Branch of the Triumvirate, and Sycia. Pryonia and Raaneka have become NPC's.

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Previous Round Increases:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5
Round 6
Round 7
Round 8
Round 9
Round 10
Round 11
Round 12
Round 13
Round 14
Round 15
Round 16
Round 17
Round 18
Round 19
Round 20

[QuintonBeck]

So, an interesting conundrum has come up recently as far as mechanics. Last round moossabi was planning to dissolve his Great Kingdom so as to pledge vassalage over to Burch once Burch has his own GK. I messaged him asking him why he was doing that since you have to have a GK to be a Greater Vassal and so he didn't since it would have lost him an action. Just today Wombat pointed out to moossabi and it got forwarded to me that he wouldn't be able to be a Greater Vassal until Burch had an Empire of his own. Meaning Moos would have to dissolve his GK to become a lesser vassal to Burch and wait until Burch got enough other people/regions signed on to have the requisite 12 regions to form his Empire which Moos would then have to form his own GK as a GV of, essentially reforming his GK and having to go through all the trouble of getting a Dip 10 and using it all the while using 5 actions to get there instead of 6.

Moos said something however that I feel makes more sense, that when Burch formed his Empire he would form/restore the GK's "lost" when joining up with it. As it stands I don't believe the rules work like that, but it would make a lot more sense to do it that way. So say the Alydaxan Dominion and Ashenia wanted to join up with the Bordeux Empire, it would make sense to me that (assuming Burch had his own GK already), that Burch could spend a Dip 10 to establish an Empire including Ashenia and Alydaxis and granting them Greater Vassal status, essentially maintaining their Great Kingdom status and transferring it over into the new regime should they both spend an action accepting said Greater Vassalage. That way one or the other participants doesn't have to wait for the Empire former to gather enough regions separately that they can join in without having to dissolve their GK, or be forced to dissolve their GK to give the Empire former the requisite number of regions and then have to reform their GKs they just dissolved once part of the Empire.

I hope that made sense. Thoughts?

[lt_murgen]

So, an interesting conundrum has come up recently as far as mechanics. Last round moossabi was planning to dissolve his Great Kingdom so as to pledge vassalage over to Burch once Burch has his own GK. I messaged him asking him why he was doing that since you have to have a GK to be a Greater Vassal and so he didn't since it would have lost him an action. Just today Wombat pointed out to moossabi and it got forwarded to me that he wouldn't be able to be a Greater Vassal until Burch had an Empire of his own. Meaning Moos would have to dissolve his GK to become a lesser vassal to Burch and wait until Burch got enough other people/regions signed on to have the requisite 12 regions to form his Empire which Moos would then have to form his own GK as a GV of, essentially reforming his GK and having to go through all the trouble of getting a Dip 10 and using it all the while using 5 actions to get there instead of 6.

Moos said something however that I feel makes more sense, that when Burch formed his Empire he would form/restore the GK's "lost" when joining up with it. As it stands I don't believe the rules work like that, but it would make a lot more sense to do it that way. So say the Alydaxan Dominion and Ashenia wanted to join up with the Bordeux Empire, it would make sense to me that (assuming Burch had his own GK already), that Burch could spend a Dip 10 to establish an Empire including Ashenia and Alydaxis and granting them Greater Vassal status, essentially maintaining their Great Kingdom status and transferring it over into the new regime should they both spend an action accepting said Greater Vassalage. That way one or the other participants doesn't have to wait for the Empire former to gather enough regions separately that they can join in without having to dissolve their GK, or be forced to dissolve their GK to give the Empire former the requisite number of regions and then have to reform their GKs they just dissolved once part of the Empire.

I hope that made sense. Thoughts?

I think it depends on how quickly you want it to happen.
If Bordeaux has 12 regions and becomes an empire, then I don't see why Alydaxis and Ashenia couldn't then 'sign on' as Greater Vassals the next round.
But if it takes all three kingdoms to get to the 12 regions, then Ashenia and Alydaxis would have to dissolve their great kingdoms and cede authority over enough regions to make Bordeaux get to 12. Then next round Bordeaux could form the Empire. Then the third round he could reassign those regions back to Ashenia and Alydaxis as 'regional authority'. Then on the fourth round, you'd have to form the great kingdoms again.

Now, that being said, I could see why a new Diplomacy action is needed for the reconstitution of a great Kingdom- after all, its been 20 years since you had authority over those regions.

[QuintonBeck]

I think it depends on how quickly you want it to happen.
If Bordeaux has 12 regions and becomes an empire, then I don't see why Alydaxis and Ashenia couldn't then 'sign on' as Greater Vassals the next round.
But if it takes all three kingdoms to get to the 12 regions, then Ashenia and Alydaxis would have to dissolve their great kingdoms and cede authority over enough regions to make Bordeaux get to 12. Then next round Bordeaux could form the Empire. Then the third round he could reassign those regions back to Ashenia and Alydaxis as 'regional authority'. Then on the fourth round, you'd have to form the great kingdoms again.

Now, that being said, I could see why a new Diplomacy action is needed for the reconstitution of a great Kingdom- after all, its been 20 years since you had authority over those regions.

Right, if Bordeux already has the requisite regions to become an Empire by itself, it's not a problem and others can sign on as Lesser or Greater Vassals easily. As you say though, the other way is pretty bad as an option for aspiring Greater Vassals and doesn't really make much sense. If Ashenia and Alydaxis could instead recognize Bordeux as the Emperor seat with an action a piece and Bordeux in turn form an Empire through an action that incorporated Alydaxis and Ashenia as Greater Vassals that just makes more sense to me and makes the prospect more logical and appealing as near as I can tell.

I don't think it would need a new action, but you;d probably have to restabilize through Dip 5s all the regions you wanted to Kingdom-fy if you lost your GK status.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I think it depends on how quickly you want it to happen.
If Bordeaux has 12 regions and becomes an empire, then I don't see why Alydaxis and Ashenia couldn't then 'sign on' as Greater Vassals the next round.
But if it takes all three kingdoms to get to the 12 regions, then Ashenia and Alydaxis would have to dissolve their great kingdoms and cede authority over enough regions to make Bordeaux get to 12. Then next round Bordeaux could form the Empire. Then the third round he could reassign those regions back to Ashenia and Alydaxis as 'regional authority'. Then on the fourth round, you'd have to form the great kingdoms again.

Now, that being said, I could see why a new Diplomacy action is needed for the reconstitution of a great Kingdom- after all, its been 20 years since you had authority over those regions.

This isn't entirely how it works, thanks to the region limit - currently at 6. I'll use my Empire as an example, because I'm the first player gathered empire (since the salterri weren't really an easy to follow example, and didn't start as a PC).

So, Lyradis colonized Selyra, Borlmyn and Requiem, and claimed Wenyavuk, Grmanhil and Domhan Abhaile. At this point, Domhan and Wenyavuk became NPC vassals of the Serendel Kingdom (Wenyavuk became a vassal a little later after it was claimed, as it was ruled that vassals didn't need to be connected geographically to a kingdom). So currently in this explaination, Lyradis has 7 nations. 5 States, and 2 vassals.

Then Raaneka's nations and Guilder's nations became vassals under the Kingdom of Serendel, as it was a Great Kingdom at the time. Both intended to become Great Kingdoms eventually, but decided to wait until after they vassalized, so that they would be able to become a Greater Vassal instead, because under the rules, they'd have to form it while being a vassal. Unfortunately, Zap had to leave, so his side of things didn't work out, but Guilder's did. He formed a Great Kingdom under my Empire, but had to wait until I was an empire to do so.

He didn't have to ceed anything over to me, and actually, he wouldn't have been able to after one, due to the regional limit. I can only take one more nation as a state.

What I see as a possible solution is just allowing Great Kingdoms to become Greater Vassals, just as Nations can become Lesser Vassals. That would easily solve this without much issue. But Morph might have that deliniation there for a purpose of balance, so there's that to consider.

Also, technically, lesser vassals can only control one less than their leige controls. I'm not sure if that counts vassals as well, but it seems it should only be nation states, because lesser vassals can only have nation states and not vassals, since they aren't great kingdoms. So, if Mossabi has 4 nations at the moment, then Bordeux can only have 3 regions if he vassalized under Alydaxis. So there's that to consider too. Not really fond of this one, and I think it relly should be up to the players for this deliniation per terms of agreement. If a Liege lets its Vassals get to grow that big, then the consequences that might arise can be dealt with by the nations involved.

[QuintonBeck]

What I see as a possible solution is just allowing Great Kingdoms to become Greater Vassals, just as Nations can become Lesser Vassals. That would easily solve this without much issue. But Morph might have that deliniation there for a purpose of balance, so there's that to consider.

Also, technically, lesser vassals can only control one less than their leige controls. I'm not sure if that counts vassals as well, but it seems it should only be nation states, because lesser vassals can only have nation states and not vassals, since they aren't great kingdoms. So, if Mossabi has 4 nations at the moment, then Bordeux can only have 3 regions if he vassalized under Alydaxis. So there's that to consider too. Not really fond of this one, and I think it relly should be up to the players for this deliniation per terms of agreement. If a Liege lets its Vassals get to grow that big, then the consequences that might arise can be dealt with by the nations involved.

That would solve it, however as it stands one has to have an Empire in order for one to have Greater Vassals, yet in this case in order to achieve an Empire Bordeux would need those who are already Great Kingdoms to stop being Great Kingdoms, become Lesser Vassals, wait for an Empire, and then redeclare as Greater Vassals which makes very little sense. If one does not need an Empire, and only needs a Great Kingdom, to accept Greater Vassals the problem is solved and in this scenario Alydaxis and Ashenia could sign on to Bordeux (once it has a GK) as Greater Vassals and then Bordeux can form an Empire out of that.

Also, as of last round Alydaxis has 5 regions so that wouldn't be a hypothetical problem. Also, Greater Vassals aren't limited in region number so vassals can outgrow their liege (assuming their liege has 5 regions to allow lesser vassals to get 4 of their own to Great Kingdom-fy) though a "small" Empire, formed under a small 4 region only Great Kingdom with a bunch of Lesser Vassals would ensure the Empire Kingdom would remain dominant barring military rebellion or secession by the lesser states.

[Aedilred]

Also, technically, lesser vassals can only control one less than their leige controls. I'm not sure if that counts vassals as well, but it seems it should only be nation states, because lesser vassals can only have nation states and not vassals, since they aren't great kingdoms. So, if Mossabi has 4 nations at the moment, then Bordeux can only have 3 regions if he vassalized under Alydaxis. So there's that to consider too. Not really fond of this one, and I think it relly should be up to the players for this deliniation per terms of agreement. If a Liege lets its Vassals get to grow that big, then the consequences that might arise can be dealt with by the nations involved.

Yeah, lesser vassals can have one less region than the liege controls directly - not including vassals, otherwise it would be recursive, and lesser vassals can't have vassals of their own so that's not really a factor. This is why Niemidaland is a Salterri vassal rather than a territory of the Carmine Sea, as it happens - we did our maths wrong and I would have ended up with too many regions had I kept it.

To be honest it seems to make sense to me; unless the central Great Kingdom only has the minimum number of regions, that's still enough room to play with for a vassal to get up to four itself and become a Greater Vassal at which point they lose that restriction.

I believe the intention is for Alydaxis to become a vassal of Bordeux, rather than the other way round, hence why moossabi was talking about dissolving his GK so that it could work.

[Lord_Burch]

Well, at this point, for moos to become my vassal I have to get six regions. So with mine, moos' regions, and Crima (an NPC vassal), there are barely enough there to form an Empire, but that would necessitate moos dissolving his GK. If I had the ability to form an Empire without his help, then I'd assume he could be incorporated into it as a Greater Vassal without dissolving his own GK.

Oh, and moos does have five regions now- Solus officially joined him as of last round, I believe.

[WaylanderX]

The Voices from the Shadows thread is updated. Also posted in the Grand Balls thread.

Just a FYI.

Cheerio,

Way

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, at this point, for moos to become my vassal I have to get six regions. So with mine, moos' regions, and Crima (an NPC vassal), there are barely enough there to form an Empire, but that would necessitate moos dissolving his GK. If I had the ability to form an Empire without his help, then I'd assume he could be incorporated into it as a Greater Vassal without dissolving his own GK.

Oh, and moos does have five regions now- Solus officially joined him as of last round, I believe.

I thought it joined Ashenia, along with Crima... Was I wrong?

[Lord_Burch]

I thought it joined Ashenia, along with Crima... Was I wrong?

No ,Solus was ceded to Alydaxis- as we had agreed when he agreed to become my vassal- and Crima temporarily became an Ashenian vassal.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

No ,Solus was ceded to Alydaxis- as we had agreed when he agreed to become my vassal- and Crima temporarily became an Ashenian vassal.

Okay, woops. I'll change that.

[Morph Bark]

@Greater Vassals and Empires: The predicament of Bordeux and Alydaxis is a unique case that wasn't foreseen. However, enabling non-Empires to have Greater Vassals would essentially make Empires not a thing from a mechanical standpoint. (Fluff standpoint they have been there since the conquest of Aloren.) The other route would be making it so that someone forming an Empire can vassalize a Great Kingdom as a Greater Vassal in the same round, but that would firstly defy the prime rule of "actions only take effect at the end of the round" and secondly cause a paradox (if the Empire formation came first, it couldn't happen due to not having enough regions; if the vassalization came first, it couldn't happen due to not having an Empire).

The third way would be for Alydaxis to vassalize Bordeux and form an Empire that Bordeux then takes over after forming a GK. This would be impossible with the current region cap, but as I said I wanted to slowly increase it anyway, we can go ahead with that. I could remove it entirely, but then military conquest would need some revisions (or the Unhappiness mechanic would need to be introduced and be severely negatively affected by having a lot of conquest) and prerequisites for Empires would become dependant on the number of vassals. (Probably at least two if that happened, with at least one being a PC vassal--or at least vassalized during the time the player was still active.)


In other news, since it turns out that at this rate I'm going to be swimming in princesses, is anyone up for some romantic drama starting a round or two down the road with their male heirs/second sons/third sons? I'm okay with them being up to 10 years older/younger, if need be.

[Aedilred]

In other news, since it turns out that at this rate I'm going to be swimming in princesses

I've always thought that swimming pools in this country were a bit boring and rubbish compared to foreign ones.

[ImperatorV]

In other news, since it turns out that at this rate I'm going to be swimming in princesses, is anyone up for some romantic drama starting a round or two down the road with their male heirs/second sons/third sons? I'm okay with them being up to 10 years older/younger, if need be.

I have two potential male heirs that were born last round... Give it three rounds they will be at the right age. Have any princesses that were born last round or the one before (or this round for that matter if they keep coming).

[Kitsanth]

In other news, since it turns out that at this rate I'm going to be swimming in princesses, is anyone up for some romantic drama starting a round or two down the road with their male heirs/second sons/third sons? I'm okay with them being up to 10 years older/younger, if need be.

I have a few spare grandsons, grand-nephews and great-grandsons of High Prince Vanya running around at the moment. As of 431 they range in age from 17 to 7. (I haven't rolled his great-grandkids up yet)

[QuintonBeck]

@Greater Vassals and Empires: The predicament of Bordeux and Alydaxis is a unique case that wasn't foreseen. However, enabling non-Empires to have Greater Vassals would essentially make Empires not a thing from a mechanical standpoint. (Fluff standpoint they have been there since the conquest of Aloren.) The other route would be making it so that someone forming an Empire can vassalize a Great Kingdom as a Greater Vassal in the same round, but that would firstly defy the prime rule of "actions only take effect at the end of the round" and secondly cause a paradox (if the Empire formation came first, it couldn't happen due to not having enough regions; if the vassalization came first, it couldn't happen due to not having an Empire).

The third way would be for Alydaxis to vassalize Bordeux and form an Empire that Bordeux then takes over after forming a GK. This would be impossible with the current region cap, but as I said I wanted to slowly increase it anyway, we can go ahead with that. I could remove it entirely, but then military conquest would need some revisions (or the Unhappiness mechanic would need to be introduced and be severely negatively affected by having a lot of conquest) and prerequisites for Empires would become dependant on the number of vassals. (Probably at least two if that happened, with at least one being a PC vassal--or at least vassalized during the time the player was still active.)


In other news, since it turns out that at this rate I'm going to be swimming in princesses, is anyone up for some romantic drama starting a round or two down the road with their male heirs/second sons/third sons? I'm okay with them being up to 10 years older/younger, if need be.

Or another (rules changing option) that moossabi thought could be done but I don't believe can at the moment but could work would be that Alydaxis and Ashenia dissolve their GK's, become lesser vassals to Burch (once he has a GK), Burch forms an Empire one round, then next round he Dip 10s again twice to reinstitute the GKs /GVs of Alydaxis and Ashenia to moossabi and Elemental. Of course, it allows a creation action from one player to another, but it kinda makes sense that the Emperor should and would be able to grant land control to his vassals and anoint them as Great Kings or what have you.

[Jeriah]

Since I do feel responsible, at least partially, for assisting in blocking your expansion, I would be willing to contribute mine and moosabbi's troops to conquering the NPC's, in exchange for some trading posts for him and I. Although I would feel better doing so if we can either get some more recon or Rizban's help. After all, it is hinted that there is more than those two regions to the NPCs, and I would assume at least another 5000 troops would exist elsewhere. Though, that is merely conjecture.

EDIT: Also why I've given up Crima and Solus, and moved my capital to Valterre.

I'm... not sure how happy I am about giving out trading posts under duress like that... Nor am I sure I want to start a war against an enemy of unknown size and undefined statistics, regardless of any promised support that might or might not actually arrive.

The city-states only have 1000 troops and aren't part of the same country as the other two regions you've discovered. They only have troops because one of their neighbours saw a lot of foreign soldiers coming in and taking their land recently. If you want to take the other two regions you'll prolly need some help. I don't have any rules on diplomatically colonizing regions with troops other than that it automatically fails, but that could do with some amending, especially since it's meant to be a former part of the Old Imperium like your own region.

I'd help you, Imperials gotta stick together and all, but since you are a vassal of the false Qzare that's gonna be on hold for a while.

My people follow the Silver Mandate. Zuida Rongyao is the only true Qzare.

It occurred to me that maybe it could be Claimed, on the basis that "The target country used to be part of your country, but they split off due to either revolution or peaceful splitting on part of either the people or previous rulers of your country." Or would that only apply if the claimant was the Qzare, i.e. Rongyao or Tailong?* Or maybe on the basis of ancestral ties if not?

*Or indeed, only if the separation happened during gameplay rather than before joining.

That might be an option... if I had a Diplomacy score. Lack of a reasonable Diplomacy score is why I went for Military. I just hadn't counted on being surrounded by bigger, stronger nations when I started the game with no apparent neighbors. Otherwise, I might have tried something else instead.

What you've got is classic Guilder syndrome. Don't worry! Opportunities will show up soon if you're looking for them. Best thing to do is change your tack a little, try a different nation type. Perhaps go curiosity?

Also, as to the Ocean Tech, I'll have a Diplomacy action this round to attend the Ball, and give it to you there.

Thank you. Really. It's just that, with pretty much everything that's been explored already claimed, I'm not exactly sure where I'm supposed to go with the tech that would help out. I mean, there's some stuff on the other side of the world that seems like it might be available, but it'd be pretty unreasonable IC for a small and politically weak nation to have a major colony on the far side of the world without it just defecting or rebelling...

As to going Curiosity, yeah, that's what I did. Everything else appeared barred to me...

[Jeriah]

On another note, no offense meant to any other player, but I'm somewhat offended by RandoMan joining the game and being given three existing, established regions right off the bat with nothing other than a comment about wanting them. Again, no offense meant, but having only joined the forum 3 days prior to my post here and having apparently posted nowhere but in this game, the account feels like an alt account for another player to me. I'm obviously not in any position of authority to make any kind of call on that, but that's my opinion on the matter.

[Morph Bark]

There have been people before registering in the same month as they joined the game, and unless there is some extra and harder evidence that an account may be a person's second account, I'm inclined to think the account belongs to someone separate.

However, Jeriah raises a good point with regards to the three regions thing. People taking over NPCs is a recent thing, since it wasn't ever really considered before Reggie asked about it. RandoMan, I think in this case it's best if you choose one of the regions of Mularuhm to take over instead of all of them from the start (prolly Mularuhm Proper) and colonize the others with your actions in the game, as them being regions lost due to Kalderdan Ringmaker's fall. It'd be similar to the manner in which Rizban took over neighbouring regions, colonizing regions that were already affiliated with him.

[lt_murgen]

I mean, there's some stuff on the other side of the world that seems like it might be available, but it'd be pretty unreasonable IC for a small and politically weak nation to have a major colony on the far side of the world without it just defecting or rebelling....

Yea, that would be like a small Island nation the size of England controlling a vast subcontinent like India....

I think in this case it's best if you choose one of the regions of Mularuhm to take over instead of all of them from the start (prolly Mularuhm Proper) and colonize the others with your actions in the game, as them being regions lost due to Kalderdan Ringmaker's fall. It'd be similar to the manner in which Rizban took over neighbouring regions, colonizing regions that were already affiliated with him.

In the very least, every region should be considered unstable until a Diplomacy 5 action is applied. Of course, as there aren't mechanics for instability (yet), it might be a moot point.

[DurkBlanston]

On another note, no offense meant to any other player, but I'm somewhat offended by RandoMan joining the game and being given three existing, established regions right off the bat with nothing other than a comment about wanting them. Again, no offense meant, but having only joined the forum 3 days prior to my post here and having apparently posted nowhere but in this game, the account feels like an alt account for another player to me. I'm obviously not in any position of authority to make any kind of call on that, but that's my opinion on the matter.

I can assure you RandoMan is not anyone's alt account unless someone convinced my friend Randy to irl send me a bunch of texts asking about the game after joining and act like it was him who was playing it

He and I are friends irl and I invited him to play and after some pestering he agreed just like I did with Reggie who I also know irl and like Quinton did with me.

For the colonizing thing that seems fairish i suppose but thinking about the advice I'm probably going to give him, what are the rules on simultaneous region colonization in regards to TNs?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

On another note, no offense meant to any other player, but I'm somewhat offended by RandoMan joining the game and being given three existing, established regions right off the bat with nothing other than a comment about wanting them. Again, no offense meant, but having only joined the forum 3 days prior to my post here and having apparently posted nowhere but in this game, the account feels like an alt account for another player to me. I'm obviously not in any position of authority to make any kind of call on that, but that's my opinion on the matter.

*Dons co-GM hat*

Saying "no offense meant" doesn't excuse making an accusation of that nature at another player. If you have that suspicion, announcing it in the game chat for all to see isn't the way I would recommend going about it. Please: Talk to a GM about it, or heck, consult a moderator. Or the player themselves. But making accusations without tangible proof just doesn't provide the friendly environment we are striving for here. Emphasis on Community World building.

*Removes co-GM hat*

That said, Rando stated that he wanted to pick up an NPC nation, which means having to go about learning all the history and stats for nations that are already created. No creativity on their part, they just have to pick up where someone else left off.

You on the other hand wanted to start from the ground up, and chose a region to do that from, and then worked it into the story line. These are two different things.

I understand your frustration with being in a place you feel you are stuck. But honestly, that has and will happen again and again, because it's part of the game. It's happened a lot to most of the players.

Think of Celero, which for a long time was wedged in between the Union of the North and the bulk of the Grand Coalition. He literraly had no where to go, aside from the Sea.

For me it was the same. Without declaring war on a neighbor, I had to sail to colonize and expand. I banked on Diplomacy to assist me, and so focused on that, but if I'd been attacked...I'd have been boned. Luckily that wasn't the case.

You banked on military, and it just happens that there are conditions you hadn't thought would exist that are making you regret your decision, so now you're not sure if you made the right decision. This is also part of the game. Plans don't always go the way we plan them. All we can do is keep going, and try and work with the craziness the world throws at us, and hope our nations come out okay. On an observational note, since it seems that the Great kingdom that's nearby you used to be part of the Imperium, I'd say you'd likely have a great chance of comandeering them to your cause.

[Aedilred]

Thank you. Really. It's just that, with pretty much everything that's been explored already claimed, I'm not exactly sure where I'm supposed to go with the tech that would help out. I mean, there's some stuff on the other side of the world that seems like it might be available, but it'd be pretty unreasonable IC for a small and politically weak nation to have a major colony on the far side of the world without it just defecting or rebelling...

There could be a few island regions in the big black space to the east. It looks like there's one south of Galomyr and to the west of the Sea of Glass at least. Of course, there might be competition for them... but there always is.

Military conquest tends to be taken as quite an aggressive move, partly because it overrides other people's diplomacy and partly because it's a military action so it will be anyway. It's easier to get away with in "blanker" areas of the map. Here you were a bit unfortunate that so many other people went after the same region - and that Burch rolled so well, so you wouldn't have been able to beat his score anyway - but it's not surprising to see people responding to an invasion by sending troops of their own. If that sort of response didn't happen, then there'd be no point ever colonising anything, since conquest would always be easier.

Something that people have (iirc) done in the past is colonise diplomatically, but supported by troops. That means you only have to get over the TN to colonise and don't have to worry about other people's rolling, which even with your low diplomacy should still have been feasible. I'm not sure whether this is something that's actually supposed to happen, though, since it seems to combine the advantages of both approaches with lesser disadvantages than either.

In any case there is something a bit "gamist" about this sort of scenario, as DarkDM mentioned when a similar thing happened with him and Guilder. Since actions nominally go through at the end of the round, what happened here was a pre-emptive retaliation against an attack on diplomats who weren't there yet. Of course, rounds are five years long IC, so there is time for a back-and-forth, but since the actions are simultaneous that's basically the effect. It's always a problem with systems which have simultaneous turn-taking but also allow people to respond to each other's actions in the same turn - and indeed, in the case of defending against invasion, require it.

Which isn't to have a go at Burch, since his reaction was entirely sensible and in keeping with the way things have been done so far. But I wonder if there should be at least a gentleman's agreement that if your diplomats are "attacked" you don't retaliate until the following round. Mechanically it doesn't make too much of a difference; while it would extend the colonisation/conquest process by a round, it's the same action cost since you would otherwise spend two on it in the first round.

There's also mention in the rules that the natives might side with the colonisers against invaders, so perhaps that would be worth looking into.

For the colonizing thing that seems fairish i suppose but thinking about the advice I'm probably going to give him, what are the rules on simultaneous region colonization in regards to TNs?

I believe Morph mentioned before that only regions fully under your control count for the purposes of calculating the TN, although he did also mention it might be waived if you're trying to colonise an excessive number of regions at once. So if you have one region and attempt to colonise two in the same round, they will both count as a second region and there'll be no TN penalty. If you try to colonise five, a "silly buggers" penalty might be applied, but I guess that (and precisely where that line was drawn) would be discretionary.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Round 20 Trade and Alliances

See the Trade & Resources thread for more details!

North Central Trade Region (NCTR) and East Trade Region (ETR) - Monitored by QuintonBeck

Trades
Heartwaste - Hurosha Silk from Yorukuni to Shikurai for Squid from Shikurai to Yorukuni
Jeweled Cities - Hurosha Tropical Fruit from the Jewelled Cities to Zargrim for Tekorvan Brass to Jeweled Cities

Trading Posts Constructed
Triumvirate trading post in Qarimos for Ships
Triumvirate trading post in the Jeweled Cities for Tropical Fruit

Trading Posts Agreed To
Calorum receives rights to a TP in Kasumor
Triumvirate receives rights to a TP in the JC
Hurosha receives rights to a TP in Calorum

Cancellations
Celero - Glazfell: Cancel the trade of Bereginian Light Crystals to the Glazfell

Curiosity 5
"Dragon Scales" in K'Braashriix

Technologies
Hurosha to Calorum: Sewer Tech, Oracles Tech, Plate Armor Tech, Oceanfaring Tech
Hurosha - Guilder: Shintouite tech for Steam Tech
Hurosha - Lyradis: Sewer Tech for Abysium Tech with Lyradis
Deep Lenses invented in Razdis
Guilder - Heartwaste: Steam Tech to the Heartwaste
Celero - Hurosha/Triumvirate: Gift Pitch technology and Berunda Riding Technology to the Triumvirate and the Hurosha Empire.
Celero - AQUA: Gift Sewer Technology and Clockwork Technology to AQUA

Invalid/Unconfirmed
Hurosha - Gunung: Furs from Zargrim for Bluefire from Tletica (Unconfirmed by Gunung)

---

South Central Trade Region (SCTR) - Monitored by Aedilred

Trades
Sanglea [121] Skywhales to Guilder [14] for Rannara Magnetite [-]

Trading Posts
Palas Caercia [67] in Nan Hai Nian [134] for Rice
Palas Caercia [67] in Nan Hai Nian [134] for Leviathans
Aus-Teire [36] in the Jewelled Cities [25] for Kelp-olive Oil
Aus-Teire [36] in Tar [24] for Tar
Aus-Teire [36] in Maos [53] for Athletes

Altered Trades
AQUA trading post in Penoccident [37] for Goats confirmed as controlled by Tar [24]
Pavonia [68] Stone redirected from Salteire [35] to Bor-Teire [34]

Curiosity 5 actions
Cocoa Nuts in Nan Hai Nian [134]
Star Nectar in the Broken Enclave [122] upgraded to Great
Tea in the Priory of Ascension [unknown region]

---

West Trade Region (WTR) - Monitored by Lord_Burch

Trade
AQUA- Trade Fruit to Zargrim for Terkorvan Brass.

Gifts/Tech Traded Resources
Fera- Gift of SCL tech to Niskovia.
Celero-AQUA- Gift of Sewer and Clockwork techs.

Import Redirection
AQUA- Architects from Tar to Jeweled Cities
Iron from Tar to Jeweled Cities
Control of Penoccident trading post Goats to Tar
Silk from Estglaz to Tar
Ship gems from AQUA to Tar

Trading Posts Constructed
AQUA- Triumvirate trading post in the Jeweled Cities for Tropical Fruit
AQUA- Tar [24] in Penoccident [37] Goats
AQUA- Aus-Teire [36] in the Jewelled Cities [25] for Kelp-olive Oil
AQUA- Aus-Teire [36] in Tar [24] for Tar

Trading Posts Agreed To
AQUA- Open Trading Post in Hrathan-Tuor for "fine crafted goods".
AQUA- Agree to allow Triumvirate to construct a trading post for Fruit. End point will be Aloren.

Invalid/Unconfirmed
Riu Chugang- Trade rubber to Bordeux for marble. (Not confirmed by Bordeux).

---

Previous Rounds:
Round 5
Round 6
Round 7
Round 8
Round 9
Round 10
Round 11
Round 12
Round 13
Round 14
Round 15
Round 16
Round 17
Round 18
Round 19
Round 20

[Jeriah]

Yea, that would be like a small Island nation the size of England controlling a vast subcontinent like India....

Except that England had a powerful navy and expansive political influence over more than just India long before it got it. A more accurate analogy, based on the fluff I posted for my region, would be the IRA suddenly deciding to send people to conquer India.

In the very least, every region should be considered unstable until a Diplomacy 5 action is applied. Of course, as there aren't mechanics for instability (yet), it might be a moot point.

This is something I agree with.

*Dons co-GM hat*

Saying "no offense meant" doesn't excuse making an accusation of that nature at another player. If you have that suspicion, announcing it in the game chat for all to see isn't the way I would recommend going about it. Please: Talk to a GM about it, or heck, consult a moderator. Or the player themselves. But making accusations without tangible proof just doesn't provide the friendly environment we are striving for here. Emphasis on Community World building.

*Removes co-GM hat*

That said, Rando stated that he wanted to pick up an NPC nation, which means having to go about learning all the history and stats for nations that are already created. No creativity on their part, they just have to pick up where someone else left off.

You on the other hand wanted to start from the ground up, and chose a region to do that from, and then worked it into the story line. These are two different things.

First off, as I mentioned to Morph via PM before posting here, I didn't even know that picking up a dropped nation was an option.
Second, it was more to do with picking up three starting regions with existing alliances, trades, and other things in addition to the new player actions giving further "virtual" actions while others had to work for all of that. This seemed pretty unfair.
Finally, I had really wanted to play as part of the Imperium and be involved in all of its political goings on. Being stuck on the other side of the world when I might have had another option is a bit frustrating.

I understand your frustration with being in a place you feel you are stuck. But honestly, that has and will happen again and again, because it's part of the game. It's happened a lot to most of the players.

Think of Celero, which for a long time was wedged in between the Union of the North and the bulk of the Grand Coalition. He literraly had no where to go, aside from the Sea.

For me it was the same. Without declaring war on a neighbor, I had to sail to colonize and expand. I banked on Diplomacy to assist me, and so focused on that, but if I'd been attacked...I'd have been boned. Luckily that wasn't the case.

You banked on military, and it just happens that there are conditions you hadn't thought would exist that are making you regret your decision, so now you're not sure if you made the right decision. This is also part of the game. Plans don't always go the way we plan them. All we can do is keep going, and try and work with the craziness the world throws at us, and hope our nations come out okay. On an observational note, since it seems that the Great kingdom that's nearby you used to be part of the Imperium, I'd say you'd likely have a great chance of comandeering them to your cause.

I "banked on Military", because I rolled low on Diplomacy for my leader, then none of my 3 Exploration actions went through (until later). With only one open region nearby, no ocean-going vessels tech, and people with immensely higher Diplo already trying for it, what was my other option if I wanted to expand to a second region?

Secondly, had I "banked on Diplomacy", it still would have done me no good whatsoever. After all, you can only use it in regions where there are no enemy troops present, and every region around me has defending troops. So... I'm still not really seeing any option other than Military.

SamBurke gave me Ocean-Faring Vessels this round, but I can't use it until next round, as is standard for the rules. So, I ask you, what are my options?
Attack the city-states, which would logically be likely to provoke a response from the neighboring GK to keep a military upstart form getting a better foothold on its doorstep?
Try really bad Diplomacy rolls that auto-fail due to troop presence?
Wait another round and spend even more actions exploring?
If you're seeing something I'm not, I'm genuinely asking for you to tell me. From what I'm seeing, none of my options appear to be very good at all.

On another note, without a DM, who is running that GK? You "hint" at trying to do something with them, but I honestly have no idea how that would even work without a DM.

[TheDarkDM]

Alright, before I get started for real and for true at the Ball I should mention that I'm looking for Stone and Timber for trade. I've got corn, magic oil (only one left!), super sulphur, super opium, and giant murder turtles to offer.

Sam and Blade, I'm thinking I'll write the introduction to our long-delayed conference tonight. Feel free to bring vassals and/or friends.

Jeriah, it sounds like you need a powerful friend who has other powerful friends and no attachment to the nations surrounding you.