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2014-06-30, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
First of all, know that I love Sci-Fi Opera. I love "militaristic stories" in sci-fi settings; which is why I loved BSG and I prefer DS9 to all other Star Trek stories. Also why I really love the Stargate SG1 series (can't comment on the other series).
I've heard a lot about the Harrington series, how it's supposed to be an intelligent book regarding interstellar warfare both on a single-ship, and eventually on massive fleet tactics. I'd like to have this august community's feel on the series.
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2014-06-30, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Once you power through the first book, in which nothing happens for an exceedingly large number of pages, and when something finally does start to happen, it grinds to a halt for a massive info-dump, the series is a lot of fun. Right until it becomes really boring, which is probably a good time to stop reading.
Also, it's David Weber, and that means things will be italicized. So if you can't stand that, I suggest reading something else. If nothing else, at the end of the day one is always left with the baffling question of why a person is reading a "Horatio Hornblower but ___' book, instead of just cutting to the chase and reading an actual Horatio Hornblower book.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2014-06-30, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Montreal
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2014-06-30, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
I've been reading Honor-verse since January, and have just finished Book 11.
Book 7 and 8 are markedly different from the rest of the series, but, I've also realised that 8 is actually my very favourite book in the series.
Book 10, so far, has been the worst, even worse than the first book, unfortunately, it's so integral to what happens in the books after that.
Hornblower is excellent. This was exactly my thought after reading the first few (this post was also made before I got up to the part where #8 gets awesome ). Unfortunately, I've already read all of the Hornblower books.
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2014-06-30, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- London, England.
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
If you like spaceships, space warfare, and giant epic political/military confrontations, you'll probably like the series.
It's got its problems, but what it does, it does very well.I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2014-06-30, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Pretty much. I love the books unconditionally, but they're far from flawless. Weber is infamous in sci-fi/fantasy circles for his infodumps; the first book has one of the more painful examples, but it's far from the only one. He gets 'better' as the books progress. Superficially, it can trip a number of the stereotypical 'Mary Sue' cliches, but Weber is a good enough writer to take what looks like cliches and make them original after all.
Spoiler: very mildly spoilery example
Nimitz, her 'treecat' companion, is often held up as a Mary Sue feature, being a cuddly-looking alien 'pet' who has a psychic bond to her. You quickly find out, though, that this 'pet' is almost as smart as she is - he's a character in his own right, not just a cute pet - and it's 'hinted' in giant glowing neon letters that their empathic bond is what's kept Honor from becoming a PTSD-ridden basket case after two or three books of ridiculously Pyrrhic victories, which is otherwise a mildly obnoxious plot hole.
Generally, people either really like them, or unconditionally detest them. Down to the initials of the main character, they are utterly unashamed of what they are, and while they're pretty good at being that, it's just not to some tastes.
Book 10, so far, has been the worst, even worse than the first book, unfortunately, it's so integral to what happens in the books after that.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-06-30 at 11:17 AM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-06-30, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Rhode Island
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Interestingly Book 4 is one of my favorites because I like much of the non-space combat stuff just as much as the Combat itself.
I recommend the series, though I haven't read any since book 9 since that was the last published when I marathoned the series.
While its not perfect it is however very compelling and the history buff in me thoroughly enjoyed the un-hidden riffing on historical events.I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2014-06-30, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
The series, as a whole, is superb. THe main problems are Weber's tendency to infodump in the wrong places (a long dissertation on the physics of spaceflight in your universe is something you need to elucidate on, but he should have done it before a climactic battle instead of during it), a tendency to avoid infodumping too much in later books, and that some of the books show signs of an excessive sensitivity to his critics. THe early books are very much the Naopoleonic Wars in space, but this ends about a third of the way into the series. Know going in, however, that there's about three parts politicking to each part combat (a lot of the criticisms of the books, especially the later ones, seem to come from expecting nearly non-stop action and not getting it), and always keep in mind that the character is talking, not the author and you can't go far wrong with them. The reading order is a bit tricky, however, as the two spinoff series are essentially required to understand the plot, and they're best read in between main series books.
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2014-06-30, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
I can't remember exactly when I stopped reading - by which I mean ran out of books then published in the series - but I didn't really have any particular trouble following events. Sometimes stuff clearly happened between books, but it was generally summarized well enough it wasn't hard to follow.
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2014-06-30, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Does the name "Albrecht Detweiler" mean anything to you? If not, then you haven't gotten far enough in the series for the subseries to be critical. If it does, than I'm quite surprised, as the main series gave only the sketchiest of summaries of the main plot of the entire series.
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2014-06-30, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Under a rock
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
I suggest reading the first 4 or 5 and then walking away, never to look back. Up to there it's fun, but beyond that point the "Honor is always right about everything, and anyone who fails to immediately love her upon their first meeting - let alone disagree with her - is irredeemably stupid and evil" just gets too thick.
_______________________________________________
"When Boba Fett told Darth Vader, "As you wish," what he meant was, "I love you.""
Phil the Piratical Platypus avatar by Serpentine
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2014-06-30, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-06-30, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Tail of the Bellcurve
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2014-06-30, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Under a rock
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
I stuck it out as far as Book 11. At that point most of the senior Havenite naval officer corps had become Good Guys (you could tell because they too had joined the legions of Honor's admirers immediately upon meeting her) who were merely on opposite sides by chance. Not to fear, though, because before their redemption they passed on the mustache-twirling caricature baton to the domestic political opposition within the Star Kingdom and Grayson, every single one of whom is portrayed as stupid, evil, and corrupt. As of course they must be, to disagree with Weber's obviously-correct-in-all-things protagonist!
And herein is my problem with the series. It's not the super-duper-special-ness, as thick as Weber lays it on, and it's not even the being-better-than-professionals-at-activities-she's-never-so-much-as-seen-before-ness. It's the way that across 11 books, the only time Honor is ever "wrong" is when she underestimates her own awesomeness. In every dispute or disagreement with another character - Every! Single! Time! - she's completely in the right, and it's entirely up to the other party to bring themselves into accord with her - there's never anything she needs to change about herself, her opinions, or her behavior._______________________________________________
"When Boba Fett told Darth Vader, "As you wish," what he meant was, "I love you.""
Phil the Piratical Platypus avatar by Serpentine
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2014-06-30, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-06-30 at 07:19 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-06-30, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Under a rock
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
_______________________________________________
"When Boba Fett told Darth Vader, "As you wish," what he meant was, "I love you.""
Phil the Piratical Platypus avatar by Serpentine
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2014-06-30, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
It doesn't sound like it. If you got through 11 books and think the only times she was 'wrong' was in underestimating her own awesomeness, you somehow missed her two major defeats that each shaped the plots for several succeeding books each. That suggests you started with a pre-formed opinion of the series and let that shape what you saw whether than vice versa.
You're free to dislike it - as I said at the very time, it's a very polarizing series. But you're not describing the Honor Harrington novels so much as a distorted caricature of them, which isn't fair to a person like the OP who's never read them.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-06-30, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Okay. Let's say I'm willing to give it a try. How far should I be ready to go to get a good feel of the series? I mean, I'm glad I stuck out with Discworld past the first three until I hit Mort. For Dresden Files, I somewhat liked the first one, but the 2nd book was kind of a drag, and the 3rd was awesome.
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2014-06-30, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
That's tricky. I'd read until at least book 3, probably 4. The first two are largely stage setting (but still quite nice reads), while things start to get going in earnest starting in 3.
I don't know if this would appeal to you, but would you consider doing a Let's Read thread? I would really like to see the thoughts of someone coming at the series cold, so to speak.
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2014-06-30, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
err...
Look. I love Let's Play. Let's Watches... Let's Listen. but.. let's read? I mean.. if I am going to read about someone reading something that I want to read, shouldn't I just read it first hand?
I could just pick up the first book, and maybe I could tell you what I liked, what I disliked, and then people could tell me if I should keep it up?
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2014-06-30, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
I meant the same sort of thing that Randomguy is doing with FMA, but by chapters instead of episodes. If the idea doesn't appeal to you, don't worry about it.
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2014-06-30, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Book 1 is bad.
Book 2 introduces Thomas Theisman. He's really important. It's basically like Book 3 of Dresden introducing Michael. Tom will be showing up a lot.
Book 3 is when it starts to get good.
Book 4-6 are all hit-or miss.
Book 7-9 are all good.
Book 10 is the worst (IMO).
Book 11 is good.
Harrington herself is kind of a Mary Sue, you can't deny that. But, that's doesn't make the series bad. Again, with all things, my opinions are very generous, and I may be overlooking flaws for the sake of having anything at all to do when my insomnia kicks in.
Obviously, there's only one Good Guy in any fight. Both sides can't be justified, and both sides can't have their own heroes - that's ridiculous! Weber obviously doesn't know what he's doing.
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2014-06-30, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Hard to say. I'd agree with Gnoman and say the first 3 books at least; this'll introduce you to a few things that'll remain consistent:
1) Weber's overall writing style.
2) Most of the main/recurring characters who'll keep popping up for the next 10 books or so.
3) A lot of exposition about the tech/setting, including the infamous mid-chase-scene infodump about the minutae of hyperspace travel in Book 1.
You could, in dire need, skip Book 1 entirely...the in-development Honor Harrington Movie is going to be based off Book 2, but it does set up some faces/events that'll be important later one. Books 1-4 are, in a way, a self-contained mini-arc of their own where most of Honor's character development takes place. Books 3 through 11 are the first major plot arc; 12+ starts off the second and final major arc.
Harrington herself is kind of a Mary Sue, you can't deny that. But, that's doesn't make the series bad. Again, with all things,my opinions are very generous, and I may be overlooking flaws for the sake of having anything at all to do when my insomnia kicks in.
Obviously, there's only one Good Guy in any fight. Both sides can't be justified, and both sides can't have their own heroes - that's ridiculous! Weber obviously doesn't know what he's doing.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-06-30 at 08:54 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-06-30, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Actually, I'd agree with Philistine to some extent. I knew almost nothing about the series (other than "space opera") before I started reading (on the advice of a friend who said they were good). I made it through 10 books before quitting.
While she may not be right quite all the time, it feels that way. Even her defeats feel like victories, in that anyone else would have done much, much worse (and they always set up greater victories).
I made it through 10 because I liked the idea of the series and some of the supporting characters, but reached the point where I just couldn't stand the lead anymore."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2014-06-30, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
You think 3-11 is one arc? It's at least two.
You're not wrong, she can get pretty Sue-like, though I think Weber's style makes it look worse than it is.
Agreed. That incompetent hack didn't include any Good Guy Havenites in Book 2, or in Book 5, or 6, or 7.
Except it's not a Space Opera.
Also, you should really read Book 11. I totally understand quitting after 10, but, 11 is really, really good.
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2014-06-30, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Actually, going back and looking at what I read, I did read 11. it was the final nail in the coffin.
Spoiler: Spoiler since OP is considering readingOf course everything works out perfectly so she can have her relationship with Hammish without her or him getting in trouble for for it. Heaven forbid anyone might atually get their feelings hurt."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2014-06-30, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Eh, I guess. I was just counting 'Manticore Vs. Haven' as one giant arc, though I agree it'd be better split into two arcs.
The other problem I only noticed in Book 11, is that there are actually other Captains besides Harrington, and they're all quite good. It's just that we never hear about them. Kuzak does literally nothing that I can recall until 11. Hamish does Operation Buttercup, but we never actually see that. And Alistair and Henke also have their own pickets...So, these guys are obviously doing something right when they're not stationed with Harrington.
Spoiler: Big Book 11 Spoiler
I think Alistar McKeon, one of Honor's closest friends for the last twenty years and 10 books, would like to have a word with you about the whole 'everything works out perfectly'. Except he can't. Because he's dead. (along with 2.2+ million other spacers, but they don't have names and so are worthless).
(Which, ironically, is one of the cornerstones in the 'Honor wasn't meant to be a Mary Sue' platform...until David started collaborating with Eric Flint, Honor was scheduled to die in McKeon's place before a large timeskip and the introduction of her kids as Replacement Protagonists.)
Originally Posted by Cheesegear SpoilerSpoiler
He's half right. 10 is where they spend the entire book suffering in noble silence, then Emily finally just outright gives them permission to sleep with each other. Book 11 is where she gets preggers and their solution is a polygamous marriage.
Open-topic: One of the more common recurring themes you'll pick up on from Book 3 onward is the 'guilt of command'...Honor takes every casualty her crews suffer during battles directly personally, and it takes her a weirdly long time to get over the idea that she is personally responsible for their deaths in a way. Though having never known anyone in a military command position during wartime myself, this sort of attitude might be true to life.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-06-30 at 11:54 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-07-01, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Under a rock
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
And what errors of judgement could be charged against Harrington in those defeats, exactly? None, as her opponents are quick enough to point out for us - in each case she was ambushed by a massively superior force with massively advantageous positioning, whose presence she could not possibly have known of. It's not Honor's fault her superiors consistently underestimate the Havenite threat! And in each case, she still manages to salvage as much as humanly possible - significantly more than the ambushing forces would have thought humanly possible, eking out operational draws from tactical defeats.
As for the other? My "pre-formed opinion" of the books was positive. I had to learn to dislike them, and the only tutor I had for that were the books themselves. See, when I first picked up the books, I had heard nothing but good about them - and that from people whose tastes, I knew from experience, ran fairly close to mine. So I wanted to like the series. No, more than that - I expected to like the series. And in the event, I did like the series... at least, the first four books or so. I kept reading for several years after that mostly on inertia, but also hoping it would get better again - and for years I thought I was the only person who was increasingly disappointed with each new volume. Hence my initial advice to the OP to go ahead, but to stop after #4: while the roots of the issue are present in the earlier books (see McKeon, all the way back in #1), after that things just get silly.
If you're going to quote me, please do me the kindness of quoting an entire statement - the parenthetical clause which you cropped out of the middle was crucial to the point.
And since you appear to have been too busy quote-snipping to catch it the first time, that was: Honor's Sue-dom is not lessened one whit by the existence of honorable, decent, professional Havenite naval officers - not when every single example of such who appears on the page also happens to be (or end up) a card-carrying member of the Honor Harrington Fan Club. Every likable character in the series likes Honor, even if they happen to be on opposite sides of the battlefield. Every character who doesn't like Honor is evil, stupid, and wrong, with no redeeming qualities. And nobody ever disagrees with Honor and is proven right in the end... unless they're telling Honor that she's really way more awesome than she believes herself to be._______________________________________________
"When Boba Fett told Darth Vader, "As you wish," what he meant was, "I love you.""
Phil the Piratical Platypus avatar by Serpentine
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2014-07-01, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
San Martin is the Trevor's Star system everyone keeps talking about. That's were all the fighting is. Yet we never hear about it, but Kuzak manages to hold the system for seven books. That would actually really impressive if the series didn't focus on just Harrington.
Every likeable character in the series also likes/respects Theisman and Pritchart, too. I guess I don't find it as big a problem as you do. Although I find it a massive problem in say, the Redwall books.
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2014-07-01, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?
Every likeable character in the series also likes/respects Theisman and Pritchart, too. I guess I don't find it as big a problem as you do. Although I find it a massive problem in say, the Redwall books.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void