Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: book 7

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even treason.

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That bit is what cemented Harkness with a permanent slot in my Favorite Characters list, and at the top of my Core Series favorites.

[Douglas]

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That bit is what cemented Harkness with a permanent slot in my Favorite Characters list, and at the top of my Core Series favorites.

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Yeah, orchestrating the escape from Tepes from start to finish all on his own initiative was one hell of an extended Crowning Moment of Awesome. And being a software engineer myself, I especially appreciated how it very dramatically illustrated the importance and usefulness of properly applied programming skills.

[Cikomyr]

Goddamnit, spoiler wall.

Harkness will die?!? Nooooooo

[Douglas]

Non-spoiler summary of the last few spoilers: "Harkness is an awesome character."

[gomipile]

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Yeah, orchestrating the escape from Tepes from start to finish all on his own initiative was one hell of an extended Crowning Moment of Awesome. And being a software engineer myself, I especially appreciated how it very dramatically illustrated the importance and usefulness of properly applied programming skills.

Spoiler: In Enemy Hands

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My takeaway was that it illustrated the importance of security engineering. Also, that the consideration of social engineering in operation and staffing policies is really important.

[The Glyphstone]

Goddamnit, spoiler wall.

Harkness will die?!? Nooooooo

Take it for granted that anyone - with one specific exception that probably isn't who you think it is - can die for the express purposes of making Honor herself more miserable and guilty over being 'responsible' for their death; Weber's a real sadist when it comes to tormenting his protagonist that way. Even Honor herself was originally scheduled to die at two different times in Weber's story-bible.

This is not to confirm or deny that Harkness will be among the casualties. Just preparing you for the possibility.

[Rodin]

Take it for granted that anyone - with one specific exception that probably isn't who you think it is - can die for the express purposes of making Honor herself more miserable and guilty over being 'responsible' for their death; Weber's a real sadist when it comes to tormenting his protagonist that way. Even Honor herself was originally scheduled to die at two different times in Weber's story-bible.

This is not to confirm or deny that Harkness will be among the casualties. Just preparing you for the possibility.

I assume the specific exception you're talking about is:

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James MacGuiness? I'm fairly sure it's him that's based on a real-life person and thus got the contractual immortality.

Also, I really liked Wanderman's story. I really enjoy Weber's "daily life aboard a starship" segments, which makes the very first novel considerably higher in my estimation than many seem to have for it. The short stories that cover the same territory are indeed great, but I found book 6 with its smaller scale a perfect place to fit such a story into one of the main story books.

[The Glyphstone]

I assume the specific exception you're talking about is:

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James MacGuiness? I'm fairly sure it's him that's based on a real-life person and thus got the contractual immortality.

Also, I really liked Wanderman's story. I really enjoy Weber's "daily life aboard a starship" segments, which makes the very first novel considerably higher in my estimation than many seem to have for it. The short stories that cover the same territory are indeed great, but I found book 6 with its smaller scale a perfect place to fit such a story into one of the main story books.

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You're correct about the person, but not the reason. MacGuinness gets immortality because Mrs. Weber adores him, and David made a promise not to kill him off after the last time he killed a character she liked (Sean Macintyre in Mutineer's Moon). So it's not contractural so much as 'domestic harmonial'.

[brionl]

Goddamnit, spoiler wall.

Harkness will die?!? Nooooooo

Not everybody dies. Barely even half the characters. He's not G.R.R. Martin, after all.

[Cikomyr]

Oh man.

Poor Caslet. About to die heroically to do something honorable but stupid. And he ends up "Saving"... Honor's very own goddamn Q-Ship

[The Glyphstone]

Yeaaaaah, that ain't gonna go over well if he ever gets repatriated, will it?

[Gnoman]

It's great to see the ludicrous armament of the Trojan Horses in action, though.

Spoiler: The next two books

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I find it kind of funny how it's Caslet that has the first on-screen realization of how fundamentally game-changing the pod-laying system is, as soon as he sees it in action. IIRC, the design of the Medusa/Harrington class didn't even start until after Honor got back from Silesia.

[RCgothic]

Was inspired by this thread to start re-reading. Haven't read any of the side spin offs, because it got confusing, but was up to date with the main series.

Currently up to book 4. The Q-ship battle in On Basilisk Station and the fight against Saladin in The Honor Of The Queen have to be some of the best in the series, before the missile count gets too high.

Also noted that we don't actually get a proper energy-range wall of battle fight depicted, even in the early books. Every fight hinges on missiles.

[Rakaydos]

Was inspired by this thread to start re-reading. Haven't read any of the side spin offs, because it got confusing, but was up to date with the main series.

Currently up to book 4. The Q-ship battle in On Basilisk Station and the fight against Saladin in The Honor Of The Queen have to be some of the best in the series, before the missile count gets too high.

Also noted that we don't actually get a proper energy-range wall of battle fight depicted, even in the early books. Every fight hinges on missiles.

Sure we do! the Manty DN vs Peep Battlecruiser squadron in ShortVictoriusWar is effectively this, however mismatched, and the Grayson SDs vs Peep Battleships in book 5.

[Cikomyr]

I have to say, the GraysonDN v Peep Battleship fight of Flag in Exil is one of my favourite battle of the series so far.

I could sense the tension rise with every line. What a magnificent trap.

[RCgothic]

Sure we do! the Manty DN vs Peep Battlecruiser squadron in ShortVictoriusWar is effectively this, however mismatched, and the Grayson SDs vs Peep Battleships in book 5.

Not refreshed myself on book 5 yet, but the DN vs battlecruisers wasn't a fight. It was an annihilation. Not typical of energy weapon engagements.

[Gnoman]

Not refreshed myself on book 5 yet, but the DN vs battlecruisers wasn't a fight. It was an annihilation. Not typical of energy weapon engagements.

Honor clung to her command chair, eyes on her display, watching the computers execute the plan she'd locked into them, and the holocaust of those three-point-seven minutes was simply beyond comprehension. Formalism had become the rule for fleet engagements over the centuries, and ships of the wall had not engaged in such point-blank mutual slaughter in over seventy T-years. The losing side in a battle knew when to cut and run, when to break off, and admirals never closed on a course which wouldn't let them break off at need. But Alexander Thurston had believed there were no ships of the wall to face him, and Honor had had no choice but to come to meet him. And now, as the last missile salvos roared out, her five surviving SDs completed their final turn and brought their energy batteries to bear.

Energy weapon engagements are (for ships-of-the-wall) vanishingly rare because any competent admiral will never get that close unless forced. Because only one side will be in a position to force the engagement, and it would be suicidal to force such an engagement without overwhelming force, I suspect that this IS a typical energy weapon engagement.

[Cikomyr]

I think i finished the lower deck subplot. Steilman got a beating and arrested.

We, that was a cheesy classic "stand up to bullies" classic tale. Doesnt mean i didnt enjoyed to see Wanderman beat the **** out of the traitorous bully.

You know what i said about being sad that it didnt impacted the main plot? Well i have to admit that id probably have been more upset if Steilman's plotting had caused any actual impact on the main plot. So i might retract my initial comments.

All in all, yay Wanderman!

[Cheesegear]

All in all, yay Wanderman!

It was all Harkness. Wanderman wouldn't have got far without Harkness.

[Douglas]

Energy weapon engagements are (for ships-of-the-wall) vanishingly rare because any competent admiral will never get that close unless forced. Because only one side will be in a position to force the engagement, and it would be suicidal to force such an engagement without overwhelming force, I suspect that this IS a typical energy weapon engagement.

You're talking about the battle between several Grayson SDs and a bunch of Haven battleships. RCgothic was talking about the time a squadron of Haven battlecruisers dropped in on an SD that randomly happened to be in range of their alpha translation and got blown away by the on duty bridge crew before the captain even knew something was happening.

[RCgothic]

You're talking about the battle between several Grayson SDs and a bunch of Haven battleships. RCgothic was talking about the time a squadron of Haven battlecruisers dropped in on an SD that randomly happened to be in range of their alpha translation and got blown away by the on duty bridge crew before the captain even knew something was happening.

I think we were talking about both, though I hadn't refreshed on 4th Yeltsin. 4th Yeltsin they all rode in behind a wave of missiles and then interpenetrated formations Nelson style. I believe that was the point blank it was referring to. Energy weapons are not usually fired point blank like grav lances have to be. Probably because the battleships still had crushing numerical superiority and could flank a standard wall. General melee played to the SDs' strengths vs BBs.

Still don't think that was a typical wall engagement. It's like looking at Nelson's victories and going 'yup, typical line of battle tactics'.

[Douglas]

True, 4th Yeltsin probably doesn't qualify as a "typical wall engagement", but it's pretty well established that energy weapon ranges, while not that short, are short enough that whichever side has less force nearly always has time to cut and run before getting in range. So, a "typical wall engagement" probably looks like a large force approaching and the smaller force running away without a non-missile shot ever being fired. Heck, all the way back in the intro portion of book 1, it's characterized as a stalemate with the much-maligned grav lance being an attempt to break it.

[Cikomyr]

Oh well. Just finished Honor Among Enemies..

the whole Hauptman subplot was quite a waste. That didn't pay off in any meaningful or pleasant way.

Wanderman's plot, while meaningless, was fun at times (like I said, I loved the NCO politicking bits), and it was enjoying to see it being resolved. The baddies got executed without any meaning by a stray laser hit, yay!

Pooooor Samantha :(

Otherwise, the final engagement/loss of the Wayfarer just seems to me tacked on without any good reason just to add to the whole pile "Honor feels horrible about people dying on her watch". I KNOW that in the next book, Harrington and her crew are being captured by the Peeps. Goddamnit, if you were gonna have her fall into enemy hand, why not make the Wayfarer's defeat the actual cause of Honor's capture? Then, you could have focused on the lower-deck crew we spent an entire book growing to admire and love, to witness their struggle within a Peeps POW camp.

Anyway. The book was REALLY fun at times, but many plot threat felt like a waste.

I loved that Weber gave a MASSIVE shoutout to Forester That was so blatant, I loved it.

[Cheesegear]

Anyway. The book was REALLY fun at times, but many plot threads felt like a waste.

Affirmative.

[Douglas]

the whole Hauptman subplot was quite a waste. That didn't pay off in any meaningful or pleasant way.

That plot line is partly setting things up for a payoff in later books. Before this point, what we've seen of Klaus Hauptman is pretty much a stereotypical corrupt rich capitalist who abuses his money and power to get whatever he wants, and Weber's moving away from that - but it's a big enough shift that doing it believably has to take time, and this is part 1 of it.

Wanderman's plot, while meaningless, was fun at times (like I said, I loved the NCO politicking bits), and it was enjoying to see it being resolved. The baddies got executed without any meaning by a stray laser hit, yay!

Turns out Steilman was completely correct to be worried about Harrington's casualty figures.

Otherwise, the final engagement/loss of the Wayfarer just seems to me tacked on without any good reason just to add to the whole pile "Honor feels horrible about people dying on her watch". I KNOW that in the next book, Harrington and her crew are being captured by the Peeps. Goddamnit, if you were gonna have her fall into enemy hand, why not make the Wayfarer's defeat the actual cause of Honor's capture? Then, you could have focused on the lower-deck crew we spent an entire book growing to admire and love, to witness their struggle within a Peeps POW camp.

Besides being the obligatory climactic hard fought battle, it's an essential part of the Hauptman plot line - Stacey Hauptman scolding her father for his behavior when Harrington is personally risking her life to save his (and all the other civilians) is a major character moment that will have lasting repercussions in future books.

Now, what gave away that Honor gets captured in the next book? The book title?

[The Glyphstone]

It does set up a lot of things that will become extremely important later on, though. The missile pods, the parasite LACs,and Caslet's 'corruption' all come to mind. Hauptman's semi-redemption isn't terribly relevant to the mainline plot, but it's a mildly significant background element in one of the spinoff series - Stacy ends up being more relevant as a recurring side character than her father.

Incidentally, it's also the first of the two points so far where, in the earliest drafts, Honor herself bit the dust. Presumably this time she was saved because Weber still had stories to tell with her, though.

[Gnoman]

I'm rereading through In Enemy Hands right now, and I noticed something odd when compared to much later books.

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Early on there's a NavInt report that elements within the Solarian League R&D establishment are trying to duplicate Manticore's FTL radio. Did Weber ever explain why they were still blindsided by FTL comms years later in universe? Presumably this project either was cancelled, or they'd simply been plugging so slowly at it that they still hadn't figured it out by then, but I don't recall seeing any clarification on this.

[russdm]

Not everybody dies. Barely even half the characters. He's not G.R.R. Martin, after all.

It does mean that he will try to make us actually care when the characters do die or perish or be grateful, unlike Martin who doesn't seem to care beyond wanking off the good guys and leaving the bad guys to win all the time. Might as well call it Game of Thrones for Villain Sues

[The Glyphstone]

I'm rereading through In Enemy Hands right now, and I noticed something odd when compared to much later books.

Spoiler

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Early on there's a NavInt report that elements within the Solarian League R&D establishment are trying to duplicate Manticore's FTL radio. Did Weber ever explain why they were still blindsided by FTL comms years later in universe? Presumably this project either was cancelled, or they'd simply been plugging so slowly at it that they still hadn't figured it out by then, but I don't recall seeing any clarification on this.

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Almost all true Solarian League R&D is done by private interests for their own usage, companies like Technodyne Industries; the 'official' military R&D departments exist to demonstrate how SL tech is already the best of the best forever. Battle Fleet itself, and Frontier Fleet, were dismissive and ignorant of Manticoran advances because of their instututional arrogance - profit-driven groups like Technodyne were much more willing to take them seriously for selfish reasons.

[brionl]

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Almost all true Solarian League R&D is done by private interests for their own usage, companies like Technodyne Industries; the 'official' military R&D departments exist to demonstrate how SL tech is already the best of the best forever. Battle Fleet itself, and Frontier Fleet, were dismissive and ignorant of Manticoran advances because of their instututional arrogance - profit-driven groups like Technodyne were much more willing to take them seriously for selfish reasons.

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Also as you'll find out later, Technodyne has specific reasons for not wanting to share R&D with the Solarian establishment.