Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?

[Cikomyr]

Do we ever see Alfredo Yu again? The man was cool

Currently reading The Short And Victorious War. I love how Weber has one of the first Major incident show how a SINGLE DREADNAUGHT, conned by a mere comms officer and its tactical station manned by an ensign, managed to wipe out 4 Haven Battlecruisers in a single volley.

It then sort of drive the point home that Honor's 8-Battlecruiser Squadron will be desperately outclassed by the likely multi-Dreadnaught task force that will inevitably show up.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh yeah, we'll get more of Alfredo Yu. He's firmly into the 'honorable opponent' category mentioned, and Weber likes re-using those characters. Though I'm surprised you didn't have much to say about Grayson and how Honor singlehandedly drags them out of misogynistic medievalism.

I gotta say I like that scene too, though. Just the evocative phrase 'enough firepower to shatter a small moon' brings out the sort of raw destruction that is getting thrown around, even if its impact is much reduced when directed at starships with the armor to survive a battering like that. But yeah, it shows how crucial it'll be for Honor to keep her force out of energy-weapon range of said inevitable enemy dreadnaughts/superdreadnaughts.


As regards to the villains - that is, I think, a reflection of Weber's writing style and probably a bit of his outlook on life in general. One will notice, looking across his various works, that his villains - the real bad guys, not simply the opponents - tend to be exaggerated, almost cartoonish, extremist in nature. Comparatively, his protagonists and heroes will be moderate/centrist, and understanding of opposing viewpoints even if they don't accept them. In a Weber Work, fanatics and extremists are evil, no matter which end of a sociopolitical spectrum they come from.

[Cikomyr]

Regarding Grayson's emergence from the depth of their misogyn beliefs...

..i kind of buy it. Sorta. Their leader was already open to the suggestion. Everyone just had a massive video evidence of Honor sacrificing herself to save their leader while kicking ass, AND THEN follow up with almost sacrificing herself to save their entite planet from nuking.

Finally, and i think its the Key, the Graysons define themselves against the Masadans as being more.tolerant of women. The more the Masadans harped and played up that chord, the more the Graysons had to camp themselves in the "not ****ing mass rapists" camp. Including the news that many dozens were mass raped to death by Masadans because they fought to defend GRAYSON...

I sort of see how the Protector of Grayson would use this perfect storm to push for woman's right, and succeeding. Especially if his greatest opponents were arrested after Macchadeus.

[The Glyphstone]

True enough. I'm not sure if the story of Saint Barbara is mentioned in HotQ, but that's another angle Benjamin was able to leverage.

Later on, you'll get Grayson's backstory in more detail, which helps flesh out the causes for their cultural PTSD turned into patriarchal misogyny. And if you want a look at Masadan culture for a contrast, there's a pre-war short story from the PoV of Prince Michael Winton in the 4th anthology, Service of the Sword.

[Silfir]

For all that I enjoy the series when it's great, it can really drag at times. I'm reading #9: Ashes of Victory, and goodness do they need to get on with it. There's like fifty pages of recaps on the state of the war, Honor catching up with people, her mother being unbearably smug about something, treecats here, even more recaps there, someone telling Honor to stop refusing awards or stop being down on herself... for every singular page of something of actual relevance happening. Like, how often do I need to be told about how Tourville and Honeker are basically best buds but can't quite say it because politics... At this point I don't even wonder about whether or not there's going to be a payoff to many of these things because I kind of don't really care.

It feels like Weber has a bad habit of having to pound everything in with at least three blows of the hammer where one would do. Like the time someone gave Honor the Hornblower novels as a present, and Weber is all coy about it describing them instead of naming them, and you get a little chuckle out of it (nudge nudge, wink wink) and then he goes "Honor especially likes this captain's initials, dohoho" and I'm all "Yes. I get it. I got it five paragraphs ago. Have you heard of subtlety." I mean, naming the peep head honcho "Rob S. Pierre" wasn't super subtle, but at least he just let that one stand on its own. You go "Heh" and that's it, no harm done. In geneal, I'm not a huge fan of Weber's comedic writing... Though it's kind of hit and miss. Sometimes he's off his game, and the characters involved in a conversation let out strange non-jokes that they laugh at themselves... But he can be on point, too.

That's kind of the gist of it. When the series gets good, it's really good. I love the stuff in space with the spaceships and the fighting thereof. I don't even mind that Honor is OP, but she can be pretty bland when she's not actively being OP in some fashion. (And to the series' credit, it finds Honor in a lot of different situations where she gets to be OP, even if she first gets chewed up and spat out.)

... But am I the only one who kind of loathes Allison? There's simply self-confident, and there is maximum smug.

[The Glyphstone]

Ashes really is the only 'mainline' book where Honor herself is kind of irrelevant. For her, it's a necessary breather after the [SPOILER] of the previous few books, but I still like it because while she doesn't do a whole lot, it shows how the rest of the universe moves on without her just fine, which is otherwise important in such a protagonist-centric series. And it has one of the best lines in the entire 'Verse, as well, so overall I still enjoy it far more than Field or War.

[Kitten Champion]

As someone who's only read Weber's War God series, I'm both mildly interested but also mildly hesitant to try this one. I didn't dislike the War God books or regret reading them at all, but at the same time there were just things that kept me from loving them all that much.

The villains were a big part of that. The general black and white morality underlying the series was something I could deal with without much issue in a D&D adventure sort of way, but the villains tended to both be poorly written in such a way that the morality kind of grated..They were irrational in such a way as to support the message of the work, like how the Paladin protagonists are written in such a way that feels contrived towards conveying Weber's moral precepts in a very 21st century progressive left-wing sort of way, rather than being convincing characters first and foremost that have traits and beliefs that represent the writer's antithesis. When you put that through a black & white morality filter, where virtue and wickedness are concrete objective things, it comes off as kind of self-satisfying.

It wasn't that obnoxious with the heroes, because they're given time to develop and be rounded out somewhat, but the villains are made into such disposable things as to not really provoke any thought or evoke any emotion..

It's also an issue of simply being - well, the hero is a not-Orc, and the degree to which Weber wants to you to feel bad about your not-Orc prejudice is pretty eye-rolling. The other hero is a women, and that gets into eye-rolling territory too as gender conflict becomes increasingly relevant. I've seen works tackle similar issues with more subtlety and creativity, suffice it to say, particularly with the not-Orc hero coming off somewhat bland due to how much he has to show up the bigots that he enters too-good-to-be true territory, but that's kind of a universal issue with paladins to begin with that... eh, I don't know.

However, none of that really stopped me from wanting to read the next book, because there's enough fantasy action/adventure fun there that feels neither completely rote nor overly complicated by self-indulgent world-building and needless characters/plot elements that I hits a certain sweet spot for me when I'm in the mood. Which is why reading Honor Harrington is sort of up-in-the-air with me. It kind of feels like seeing something you typically like to eat in your fridge but the expiry date isn't available and you aren't sure when you bought it, even though it seems to smell fine you aren't sure whether it's worth the risk, and really you've got a full fridge stuffed with fresh food to choose from, but then what? It's definitely going to expire soon enough anyways, so that anxiety isn't going anywhere -- yeah, like that.

[Douglas]

I was going to say Honor Harrington does better on those issues so you should give it a try, but then I realized a lot of the worst of it is concentrated in the early books. So, maybe?

There are a significant number of Villainous Villains who do Villainy, but there are also quite a few Honorable Opponent types who are antagonists but nonetheless respectable people, and I don't remember much (if any) of that latter category in the War God series. Even the straight-up villains are all self-centered and/or prejudiced, though, not openly Evil the way the War God villains are. There is a major misogynist faction, but it's concentrated in two specific nations and becomes less relevant over time, not more.

The not-Orc prejudice is simply not a thing in Honor Harrington, and not just because there aren't any orcs. There aren't any metaphorical orc equivalents either.

[The Glyphstone]

I think Weber's writing is much stronger in HH and his other major series, Safehold, than side-stuff like the War Gods books. He is a naval historian, and I think it shows - any time he's writing something naval-related (whether blue-water or space), it results in a much better story than when he moves outside his comfort zone.

[Dragonus45]

True enough. I'm not sure if the story of Saint Barbara is mentioned in HotQ, but that's another angle Benjamin was able to leverage.

Later on, you'll get Grayson's backstory in more detail, which helps flesh out the causes for their cultural PTSD turned into patriarchal misogyny. And if you want a look at Masadan culture for a contrast, there's a pre-war short story from the PoV of Prince Michael Winton in the 4th anthology, Service of the Sword.

Yea, I feel like a key point of the Greyson Philosophy on women was the generally awful situation that meant that in some ways they almost had to stay that way until medical tech caught up. Also there always seemed to be a divide between them and the Masadans on root cause, where Masada was adamant women were inferior in all ways and they couldn't be trusted with anything but slavery the. Gerysons had more of a its abhorrent to ask women to do anything because the immense infant stillbirth and death rates are trying enough and and really flower mindset about what women could handle. Once Honor came along to blow out of the water anyone who wanted to say women couldn't hack it lost all the argument they could have ever had. Because she can hack it, with a lethally thrown dinner plate. On TV.

[Cheesegear]

As someone who's only read Weber's War God series...

Glyphstone got me to read HH, and I'm pretty sure it was you who told me to read War God.

I see what you're saying, and to me, it feels a lot like Dragonball Z. In fact, this works for both of Weber's works. The antagonists don't exist to be antagonists. The antagonists exist so that the protagonist (who is the underdog, honest), can wipe the floor with them. Bahzell Bahnakson - much like Honor Harrington - is consistently underestimated by his foes, even after he gains the moniker 'Bloody-Hand'. Bahzell Bloody-Hand, the seven-foot tall Champion of the 'verse's War God, who is also a berzerker and resistant to magic, is obviously going to be a pushover.

Oh wait, he's a seven-foot tall berzerker Champion of War. Who also happens to be best friends with the 'verse's expy of Gandalf. Who could've possibly seen him steamrolling through his entire opposition!? Inconceivable!

Honor does this thing. Honor does the next thing. People record Honor doing a thing. Said recording is distributed. But people still don't believe it. Then they confront Honor, and she steamrolls them. It's not that Honor - or Bahzell - is OP. It's that her - and his - opponents are stupid, and die immediately upon confrontation with the protagonist.

If an antagonist doesn't die, it's usually because they're presented as being a bit smarter than their peers. Weber can't seem to stop gushing about how super cool Yu, Theisman and Tourville are.

[Douglas]

Honor does this thing. Honor does the next thing. People record Honor doing a thing. Said recording is distributed. But people still don't believe it. Then they confront Honor, and she steamrolls them. It's not that Honor - or Bahzell - is OP. It's that her - and his - opponents are stupid, and die immediately upon confrontation with the protagonist.

To be fair, the message about Honor does eventually get properly accepted and respected. Until the opponents get swapped out for a new set, anyway, and even then it's only one of the two portions of the new set that dismisses her prowess.

[DomaDoma]

Ashes really is the only 'mainline' book where Honor herself is kind of irrelevant. For her, it's a necessary breather after the [SPOILER] of the previous few books, but I still like it because while she doesn't do a whole lot, it shows how the rest of the universe moves on without her just fine, which is otherwise important in such a protagonist-centric series. And it has one of the best lines in the entire 'Verse, as well, so overall I still enjoy it far more than Field or War.

Thing is, half of book eight was already devoted to that concept, and did it much more compellingly in my view. (But... clearly not Rodin's.)

[Kitten Champion]

Glyphstone got me to read HH, and I'm pretty sure it was you who told me to read War God.

I... don't think so. Unless you were asking for recommendations with such strict criteria related to it, there's better fantasy to read even if War God's not something I'd tell anyone to avoid were I asked.

I was going to say Honor Harrington does better on those issues so you should give it a try, but then I realized a lot of the worst of it is concentrated in the early books. So, maybe?

I think Weber's writing is much stronger in HH and his other major series, Safehold, than side-stuff like the War Gods books. He is a naval historian, and I think it shows - any time he's writing something naval-related (whether blue-water or space), it results in a much better story than when he moves outside his comfort zone.

So, basically, the Honor Harrington books have a similar simplistic outlook as War God, but Weber excels more at designing and depicting space naval combat than swords and sorcery? Okay.

I guess at the very least, if I pick it up, I'll be doing it with reasonable expectations.

[Dragonus45]

Well I did adore the one about the aliens invading earth.

Spoiler: Huge twist do not read, unless you want to.

Show

Although it would have been just an ok book without the bit where dracula eats the vampires and then rides off into space to genocide their entire race.

[Rodin]

Thing is, half of book eight was already devoted to that concept, and did it much more compellingly in my view. (But... clearly not Rodin's.)

Spoilered just in case.

Spoiler

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Well now, I wouldn't say that. Echoes of Honor is, for me at least, the very best book in the series. I felt the quality started to go down post Ashes of Victory, so without referencing those I'd say my other two votes for weakest novel would be Field of Dishonor and A Short Victorious War. I seem to be in agreement with everybody else for the former, but for the latter I just find it very slow. There's lots of setting up of stuff to come later, and while there are big payoffs from it they don't happen in that novel.

Ashes falls somewhere in the middle. Probably not in my top 3, but definitely not in the bottom half. I really liked a lot of the developments at the end, and if Weber had used Ashes as a final novel to the series I would have been very happy. Part of the reason I take such issue with the newer novels is that he reached a perfect stopping point, and then...just kept going.

[Knaight]

The villains were a big part of that. The general black and white morality underlying the series was something I could deal with without much issue in a D&D adventure sort of way, but the villains tended to both be poorly written in such a way that the morality kind of grated..They were irrational in such a way as to support the message of the work, like how the Paladin protagonists are written in such a way that feels contrived towards conveying Weber's moral precepts in a very 21st century progressive left-wing sort of way, rather than being convincing characters first and foremost that have traits and beliefs that represent the writer's antithesis. When you put that through a black & white morality filter, where virtue and wickedness are concrete objective things, it comes off as kind of self-satisfying.

Wait, what? Maybe we've read different Weber, but I never got the idea he was even slightly left wing. That he was writing borderline morality tales ridden with propoganda, sure, but left wing?

[Kitten Champion]

Wait, what? Maybe we've read different Weber, but I never got the idea he was even slightly left wing. That he was writing borderline morality tales ridden with propoganda, sure, but left wing?

I have no specific knowledge of Weber's politics, but the War God series is almost entirely about overcoming racism and sexism and how much better things are when we work together harmoniously even if it feels somewhat anachronistic in a pseudo-medieval setting -- so that was my assumption.

[Rodin]

I have no specific knowledge of Weber's politics, but the War God series is almost entirely about overcoming racism and sexism and how much better things are when we work together harmoniously even if it feels somewhat anachronistic in a pseudo-medieval setting -- so that was my assumption.

Well, he's very pro-military, which doesn't scream left-wing. At the same time though, he managed to have both the Liberal AND Conservative parties be evil bastards and had the Centrists be the party we're supposed to be rooting for.

If anything, going off the Honorverse I'd judge him as being moderate with right leanings, especially with regard to the military.

Then again, maybe my judgement is skewed. My two most read military authors are Weber and John Ringo, and Ringo is so far out on the right wing you need binoculars to see him from the center.

[The Glyphstone]

If you use Ringo as a baseline, anyone looks left-wing. Like I said above, David's driving philosophy seems to be that going too far into any extreme- Liberal, Conservative, whatever - is bad, and writes his hardline [BLANK]-wing antagonists appropriately. On the other hand, he doesn't make the mistake of having all [BLANK]-wing characters be cartoons either; Cathy Montaigne is a diehard liberal, and Michael Oversteegen is born-and-bred conservative, but they're both tempered by centrist leanings and general good-people-ness.

[Corvus]

I tried to get into the series - I have read the first three - but it never quite clicked for me.

I don't mind infodumps. I read a lot of fantasy so I'm used to them. And I don't mind too much that she is a little bit mary-sue. After all someone does have to be best at (near) everything. The jarring part for me was that, despite the hero worship of near everyone (except the bad guys), she seems to have such a low opinion of herself. At least that is what it felt to me in the first three books. It wasn't that she was humble but that she just don't think she was good enough. I could be wrong though as it has been a while since I read it.

There were a few other bits that struck me as a bit wrong as well. Firstly is why, in such a technologically advanced era, there was a need for such massive crews on ships? 1500 man crew on a Q-Ship? 2000 on a battlecruiser? What are all these people doing? Manually loading weapons WH40K style? Age of Sail did need large crews and I get he was trying to make it feel like Age of Sail in space but the crew numbers seem a little extreme.

The other weird thing is how missiles work. They are huge things travelling at massive speeds. The sheer kinetic energy of one of those things hitting would far out weigh any nuke warhead that could fit into it. Heck, just one of those hitting a planet would be devastating.

[Douglas]

I tried to get into the series - I have read the first three - but it never quite clicked for me.

I don't mind infodumps. I read a lot of fantasy so I'm used to them. And I don't mind too much that she is a little bit mary-sue. After all someone does have to be best at (near) everything. The jarring part for me was that, despite the hero worship of near everyone (except the bad guys), she seems to have such a low opinion of herself. At least that is what it felt to me in the first three books. It wasn't that she was humble but that she just don't think she was good enough. I could be wrong though as it has been a while since I read it.

She grows out of that eventually, though her definition of what's "in the line of duty" (and thus whether she has qualified for an award for "above and beyond the call of duty") with regard to herself is always a bit stretched.

There were a few other bits that struck me as a bit wrong as well. Firstly is why, in such a technologically advanced era, there was a need for such massive crews on ships? 1500 man crew on a Q-Ship? 2000 on a battlecruiser? What are all these people doing? Manually loading weapons WH40K style? Age of Sail did need large crews and I get he was trying to make it feel like Age of Sail in space but the crew numbers seem a little extreme.

Lingering distrust of the flexibility and reliability of automation, mostly, especially in the face of damage that a warship is likely to receive in battle. Also, damage control and the occasional boarding action, and crew not being enough of a bottleneck to bring much attention to it. Later books have shipbuilding capacity start outstripping the available personnel supply, with Manticore responding by drastically increasing automation and reducing crew per ship.

The other weird thing is how missiles work. They are huge things travelling at massive speeds. The sheer kinetic energy of one of those things hitting would far out weigh any nuke warhead that could fit into it. Heck, just one of those hitting a planet would be devastating.

Yes, and there are occasions where a commander holds fire specifically to make sure that none of his missiles will accidentally hit a planet that happens to be behind his targets. However, space is BIG. Really really big. Getting a missile to actually make physical contact with a ship-sized target, rather than sail by 1000 kilometers away, is very difficult. The nuke warhead isn't there for firepower, really, it's there for making "close enough" a useful possibility - and even the range a nuke allows is small by space combat standards, which is why missiles loaded with one-shot lasers instead become dominant rather quickly. I think the only in-setting reason laser-missiles weren't already the dominant type at the beginning of the series is that they were a recent invention.

[The Glyphstone]

The overly large crews were as much legacy as anything else - it's a direct quote form someone in a later book musing (in a negative sense) on the topic that 'warships had large crews because they had always had large crews'. One reason is that every gun and missile launcher on the ship always has a full 4-6 person crew manning it, even when the weapons themselves are under computer control from the bridge - because in the event battle damage cut off that weapon from central control, it could still keep firing under local manual. The rest of the bodies were there as, effectively, ablative meat to replace casualties mid-battle, but essentially it was more lingering tradition. And Haven ships tended to double-down on the overstaffing because their individual crew quality was so much lower, to boot. They needed all that surplus manpower just to overcome individual inefficiency.

The population figures also include the Marine complements of each ship, as well, who aren't typically integrated into the regular ship functions.

As Douglas says, space is mind-bogglingly big, and landing a direct hit on an enemy ship between its sidewalls, its point defense, and its relative size is the next best thing to impossible. The primary role of contact nukes isn't so much to inflict damage on a ship as it is to overload and burn out their sidewalls, clearing a path for the laser-head missiles to strike at the hull directly - in comparison to the nukes or theoretical KE warheads, an X-ray laser head missile detonating has a threat radius of 25,000 kilometers at the start of the series, and they got better. When your ships were generally less than a kilometer long, that's substantial.

[Rodin]

Yes, and there are occasions where a commander holds fire specifically to make sure that none of his missiles will accidentally hit a planet that happens to be behind his targets. However, space is BIG. Really really big. Getting a missile to actually make physical contact with a ship-sized target, rather than sail by 1000 kilometers away, is very difficult. The nuke warhead isn't there for firepower, really, it's there for making "close enough" a useful possibility - and even the range a nuke allows is small by space combat standards, which is why missiles loaded with one-shot lasers instead become dominant rather quickly. I think the only in-setting reason laser-missiles weren't already the dominant type at the beginning of the series is that they were a recent invention.

They already were the dominant type at the start of the series - most of the missiles Fearless was carrying in On Basilisk Station were laserheads. And the reason for them isn't just that the ships can dodge - point defense systems are simply too good too allow nuclear missiles to make a direct hit at close range, so the missiles have to shoot from as far away as possible to stand a chance of landing a hit. The nukes seem to be carried as a sort of weapon-of-last-resort.

On crew sizes, keep in mind that a Battlecruiser is literally a mile long. Compare to a real life Nimitz-class carrier, with a length of 0.l miles, and the crew on one of those is in excessive of 5000 (at least, according to Wikipedia). Given the sizes of the ships (ignoring the issues Weber has with scale and the Square Cube law), the size of the crew is actually small in comparison to modern day vessels.

[The Glyphstone]

He fixed his issues with sizes in the Great Resizing Retcon, at least, after fans pointed out the problems. Some printings of the first few books had the old values, though - an old-print battlecruiser was 1.6km long, a new-print one would be 700m long. Still a whole lot bigger than an aircraft carrier, so the point stands.

[Foeofthelance]

As Douglas says, space is mind-bogglingly big, and landing a direct hit on an enemy ship between its sidewalls, its point defense, and its relative size is the next best thing to impossible. The primary role of contact nukes isn't so much to inflict damage on a ship as it is to overload and burn out their sidewalls, clearing a path for the laser-head missiles to strike at the hull directly - in comparison to the nukes or theoretical KE warheads, an X-ray laser head missile detonating has a threat radius of 25,000 kilometers at the start of the series, and they got better. When your ships were generally less than a kilometer long, that's substantial.

I'd have to go dig through several large boxes or a couple of file dumps to check, but I think part of the confusion is because the laser warheads are nukes, just rather compact and focused ones. If i'm remembering the diagrams right, the way the missiles work is they reach detonation range, scatter the lasing rods, and then set off the explosion which coverts the rods to energy. It's also why they get referred to as "bomb-pumped x-rays" in a few places. There's supposed to be a way of programming the warheads to skip the first step and go straight to the exploding bit, but AFAIK its mostly there as a back up to the scuttling charges and other such absolute-worst-case scenarios. It's not so much that the designers ever expect it to be used that way, they just didn't see a reason not to include it on the list of features.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd have to go dig through several large boxes or a couple of file dumps to check, but I think part of the confusion is because the laser warheads are nukes, just rather compact and focused ones. If i'm remembering the diagrams right, the way the missiles work is they reach detonation range, scatter the lasing rods, and then set off the explosion which coverts the rods to energy. It's also why they get referred to as "bomb-pumped x-rays" in a few places. There's supposed to be a way of programming the warheads to skip the first step and go straight to the exploding bit, but AFAIK its mostly there as a back up to the scuttling charges and other such absolute-worst-case scenarios. It's not so much that the designers ever expect it to be used that way, they just didn't see a reason not to include it on the list of features.

Yeah, the laser heads do have fusion warheads at their cores as part of the detonation sequence, but that's a distinctly different weapon from the actual contact-fused megaton-range nuclear missiles that were the primary missile armament before x-ray lasers.

[HandofShadows]

There is a good reason to keep a few "contact" nukes around. If an enemy ships sidewall are down just a single hit with one WILL take out the ship.

[Gnoman]

There is a good reason to keep a few "contact" nukes around. If an enemy ships sidewall are down just a single hit with one WILL take out the ship.

As of book 2, getting that single hit is all but impossible (one hit is managed against Thunder Of God/Saladin's sidewall only because the ignorant crew left the defenses on fully automatic and the sequence was figured out), and antimissile defenses get exponentially better from there.

Word of Weber states that contact nukes are worthless even with late series supertech.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, that's why they hit a Peep Dred in "A Short Victorious War" with regular nukes after it's sidewalls had been taken down in first strike.