Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?

[Cheesegear]

Once.

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to; That wasn't his fault at all and when poop hit the fan he did his job 100% like he was supposed to. I couldn't imagine that scenario playing out any differently.

If you're referring to another thing...

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It was Honor who went back to save him, her choice. He was laying down covering fire for Honor and the others to escape. He gets shot (just like he knew he would) and Honor goes back, losing her arm in the process. While Honor losing her arm is technically because of LaFollet, Andrew in no way asked her to do that, in fact, he specifically was shot so that Honor wouldn't be. Again, 'cause that's his job.

But, neither of those things are LaFollet's fault and I think you know that...Yeah. I had to check. LaFollet's dead brother happens in Book 4, so it's safe to talk about. Was that actually his fault? I don't remember that one.

After McKeon and Henke, I think LaFollet might actually be one of my favourites.

[The Glyphstone]

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to; That wasn't his fault at all and when poop hit the fan he did his job 100% like he was supposed to. I couldn't imagine that scenario playing out any differently.

If you're referring to another thing...

Spoiler

Show

It was Honor who went back to save him, her choice. He was laying down covering fire for Honor and the others to escape. He gets shot (just like he knew he would) and Honor goes back, losing her arm in the process. While Honor losing her arm is technically because of LaFollet, Andrew in no way asked her to do that, in fact, he specifically was shot so that Honor wouldn't be. Again, 'cause that's his job.

But, neither of those things are LaFollet's fault and I think you know that...Yeah. I had to check. LaFollet's dead brother happens in Book 4, so it's safe to talk about. Was that actually his fault? I don't remember that one.

After McKeon and Henke, I think LaFollet might actually be my favourite character. No, wait. McKeon, Henke, Harkness, then Honor herself.

I suspect I'm talking about the first thing you thought I was referring to.

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Spoiler: Double spoiler, just in case

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He did make a mistake, in retrospect, by not having the car grounded immediately - not from bad info or a bad decision, just a gamble that went poorly. He still did his job with 100% success, but if he'd made the other decision, he and Miranda and Farragut would have survived too.

[The Glyphstone]

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to; That wasn't his fault at all and when poop hit the fan he did his job 100% like he was supposed to. I couldn't imagine that scenario playing out any differently.

If you're referring to another thing...

Spoiler

Show

It was Honor who went back to save him, her choice. He was laying down covering fire for Honor and the others to escape. He gets shot (just like he knew he would) and Honor goes back, losing her arm in the process. While Honor losing her arm is technically because of LaFollet, Andrew in no way asked her to do that, in fact, he specifically was shot so that Honor wouldn't be. Again, 'cause that's his job.

But, neither of those things are LaFollet's fault and I think you know that...Yeah. I had to check. LaFollet's dead brother happens in Book 4, so it's safe to talk about. Was that actually his fault? I don't remember that one.

After McKeon and Henke, I think LaFollet might actually be my favourite character. No, wait. McKeon, Henke, Harkness, then Honor herself.

I suspect I'm talking about the first thing you thought I was referring to.

Spoiler

Show

Spoiler: Double spoiler, just in case

Show

He did make a mistake, in retrospect, by not having the car grounded immediately - not from bad info or a bad decision, just a gamble that went poorly. He still did his job with 100% success, but if he'd made the other decision, he and Miranda and Farragut would have survived too.

As far as favorites - within the core series, I'd have to go Harkness, LaFollet, Cathy Montaigne, then Honor. With the spinoffs added, the list stays in order, but Oversteegen and Zilwicki+Cachat (cause you can't have one without the other) go into slots 1 and 2 respectively, bumping the rest down.

[Cheesegear]

Double spoiler, just in case

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Huh. I thought it was Alison's call, and LaFollet just had to go along with it, because Alison is annoying spunky and LF just has to take it because he's sworn to.

I think I may have to read the scene again... It is a very good scene, and I don't mind at all.

I'd have to go Harkness, LaFollet, Cathy Montaigne, then Honor.

Now that I think about it...There's a lot of characters that I place above Honor, even a Peep or two (e.g; Pritchart and Theisman). Is that bad, that I don't really like the main character as much as...A lot of people in the stories?

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Consulting my EPUB

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"What?"

Andrew LaFollet snapped upright in his seat, one hand pressed to his earbug. Allison Harrington had been concentrating on her grandson and the bottle he was industriously draining, but the sharp incredulity of the colonel's tone whipped her head around towards him.

He was listening intently, and she thought she could actually see the color draining out of his face. Then he stabbed the button that connected him to the pilot's position.

"Get us on the ground, Jeremiah—now!" He listened for a moment, then nodded. "All right. If we're that close to town. But get us there fast!"

He let go of the button, and as he turned to face Allison, she felt the limo's sudden acceleration pushing her back in her seat.

LaFollet is in charge when security is concerned. Allison is spunky, but she listens to the bodyguards when bodyguarding is necessary. It is an extremely powerful scene, and is quite possibly the nastiest knife Weber has driven into Honor's back in the entire series (and the readers' in the process).

Now that I think about it...There's a lot of characters that I place above Honor, even a Peep or two (e.g; Pritchart and Theisman). Is that bad, that I don't really like the main character as much as...A lot of people in the stories?

Not at all. Honor herself is a good character, but she's enriched even further by her supporting cast. It's more to Weber's credit that he can write so many compelling side characters rather than lavish all his attention on the main protagonist and let the rest of them rot.

[Dragonus45]

One note that I wanted to make about the Solarian tech bit, while their best and most updated stuff is within spitting distance of Manticore they have not been doing any real upkeep on their older ships so a lot of the stuff they have moth balled is so old at one point a character points out they still use chemical based slug throwers for their point defence.

[The Glyphstone]

General reminder guys, any discussion of the Solarians should be kept to stuff pre-Book 5, or else put behind spoiler tags.

[Cikomyr]

Well, reading Flag in Exile. I am happy that Grayson wasnt insta-converted to feminism, and that even the most convert of individuals have some limits regarding feminine behavior. It will probably be a very long process.

I loved the scene where Honor was put back in command..

"Well, the Superdreadnought Something will end its refit next month. Its perfect for your command"
"A Superdreadnought?! I only commanded a Battlecruiser! You realize just by how much you make me jump rank?"
"...you won't command the Superdreadnought, but it will be under your command, Admiral Harrington"

Weber is one cheesy writer, but cheesy does not equate bad quality. I feel like cheese at the moment, and its damn fun so far.

ALFREDO YU IS BACK!! Did i mentionned i loved the guy?! I hope he doesnt backstab Honor.

[Rodin]

The Graysons in general are pretty awesome. Most of my favorite characters hail from there, and I quite like them as well-written fundamentalists. Reverend Hanks in particular is just a lovely, lovely guy.

[Cheesegear]

It's more to Weber's credit that he can write so many compelling side characters rather than lavish all his attention on the main protagonist and let the rest of them rot.

I need more stories about Tourville, who is the Honor Harrington for his side.

[The Glyphstone]

I need more stories about Tourville, who is the Honor Harrington for his side.

I'm not sure how I forgot Tourville, really, on my list of favorites. I think he'd be fighting with LaFollet for the #2 slot after Harkness. Though I'd say Harrington and Theisman are more direct equivalents - Tourville is more like the Michelle Henke of his side, considering their raw competence clashing against their shared determination to avoid high command.

#6 coming up, Cikomyr, might be a little odd, because it's the only one of the mainline books were Honor isn't the sole protagonist. It's almost two stories woven together, Honor herself and a 'lower decks episode' story about an ordinary enlisted rating serving on her ship. They're entertwined, but it is a departure from the pattern.

[Cikomyr]

Thanks for the Head's Up. I dont think i necessarily needed it. The story already diverge from PoV to PoV characters, having someone else be a long focal point for a book will be interesting. Especially if its from the relatively same location as Honor, just a different position. I love "lower decks episode".

I kind of disliked the Haven interruptions during Short and Victorious War. That was pretty distracting, even if i understand why they did it. Weber should have moved that plot over to Field of Dishonor, and strived to get opposing political stories with a basic thematical frame.

[The Glyphstone]

Incidentally, you're also drawing close to the point where you can start checking out the short story anthologies, generally written by other authors Weber has invited to play around in his universe. You have to be careful when you read some of them, because they're often background material for secondary characters or prequels to key events in the mainline story, but sometimes not.

More Than Honor is more or less safe to read immediately. It has one story about the first treecat-human bond, one Haven-centric short story that is background/very mild spoilers for the beginning of Book #7, one long technical and political essay about the universe, and one pointless garbage turkey story (A Grand Tour) that has jack-all to do with the Honorverse and is more a thinly veiled plug for David Drake's own sci-fi series.

Worlds of Honor is entire prequel material, every story takes place prior to Book #1. Two are treecat-centric, exploring the early days of treecat interaction with humans, one is about Queen Elizabeth's rise to the throne, one is a backstory for a minor side character I think you've already met - Marine Susan Hibson. Also has one garbage turkey story with no actual connection to the wider universe (Deck Load Strike).

Changer of Worlds should be avoided until the end of Book 9 at the earliest, because it has some fairly major spoilers for the plot up to that point.

Service of the Sword likewise has spoilers for events prior to the end of Book 9, though it's also got one of my favorite short stories in the entire collection.

In Fire Forged is 'safe' in terms of spoilers, but two of the three stories are sequels to previous short-story works, so it wouldn't be as enjoyable to read.

Beginnings is 80% prequel material, and one story with GIGANTIC spoilers for Book 12 that should be avoided at all costs. That 80% is okay though - a story about Honor's parents, one about Honor meeting Nimitz, a disconnected but otherwise tolerable story from 1200 years before 'current' day, and what is basically a sampling of the Call To Arms spinoff series.

[Foeofthelance]

One note that I wanted to make about the Solarian tech bit, while their best and most updated stuff is within spitting distance of Manticore they have not been doing any real upkeep on their older ships so a lot of the stuff they have moth balled is so old at one point a character points out they still use chemical based slug throwers for their point defence.

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Spitting distance? I'm not sure they're even sharing the same planetary atmosphere at this point. Michelle Henke managed to compel Crandall's fleet of super dreadnaughts to surrender to a four mixed squadrons of cruisers. Remember how earlier in the series a single unprepared dreadnaught took out a group of battlecruisers? Crandall had 71 super dreadnaughts and 24 battlecruisers to Henke's 14 battlecruisers and 12 cruisers, plus 4 accompanying CLACs. And this wasn't through some clever stage of tactics or ambush. Henke point blank told her opponents what she was going to do, how she was going to do, gave them time to prepare counter measures, and then proceeded to ream them a new one with a single missile salvo. For any of the major "neobarb" navies, a salvo of that size would have been tough, but survivable. The Solarians lost an entire third of their super dreadnaughts.

And that was a love tap compared to what Honor did to Filerta. The only "advantage" the Solarians have at this point is that its likely Manticore and her allies would run out of missiles before the Solarians ran out of ships. What's driving the plot at this point, however, is that its likely the Solarians are going to be losing systems even faster than they lose battles.

@Glyphstone: Which story was your favorite?

[The Glyphstone]

Fanatic, in this case. I'm a particular fan of Eric Flint's writing in general, and Victor Cachat is, as previously noted, half of my second favorite character-pairing in the entire setting. Seeing him do what he does best for the first time (outside From The Highlands, which is also a favorite of mine) is quite enjoyable.

[Cheesegear]

Though I'd say Harrington and Theisman are more direct equivalents - Tourville is more like the Michelle Henke of his side

I disagree. Theisman is a unique product of his environment. I can't imagine any Manty - Honor included - doing what Theisman does. I can't imagine Theisman, for his part, tackling the Grayson problem in the same way that Honor did, at all. Theisman wouldn't have gone in for the whole Summervale fiasco. Pavel Young is uniquely Honor's experience, but Summervale would've gone a whole lot differently.

In one of the old WHFB books, an Empire man (progressive industrialist) is in Bretonnia (medieval Knights-and-Peasantry). A Knight challenges the Empire man to a duel. The Empire man, having discarded 'honour' a long time ago, speaks plainly and bluntly because he comes from a society that values that. The Knight throws down the gauntlet, and the Empire man says
"Okay."
Draws his pistol on the spot and shoots the Knight point blank in the chest. Old-west cheater-at-the-card-table style.

I think if anyone is Henke on the Peeps' side, it's Giscard.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not at all saying they are identical, or would do things the same way - both Tom and Honor are unique. But they're very strongly similar in a lot of other ways - the integrity that drives them, the disdain for politics that persists even after they're forced into political circles, and the way they earn an almost supernatural loyalty from the officers they command. Plus, they're the two greatest tacticians alive for their respective sides, and possibly the entire galaxy at the time.

In terms of their role in the story, Giscard might match Henke better. But for temperament, I think she and Tourville are quite similar even if Tourville wraps himself in his lunatic cowboy persona to hide it.

[Cikomyr]

I love how Weber keeps dodging expectation.

So far, i have seen THREE Commissars in the People's Navy. Despite the People Navy Officers keep describing these Commissars as a pain in the ass, what we witness are:

- a Commissar listening to the Admiral's point of view, understanding the limitation he operates under and offering to help in order to avoid thr entire operation be screwed
- a Commissar pretending to be stupid but having a profound understanding of naval things, all meant to lull what is effectively a rather distrustful admiral in a false sense of security
- a Commissar deliberately "not hearing" an officer's accidental disregard of the Committee's regulations regarding equalitarian denomination (Citizen Commander instead of "sir") because he listened to the commander's input regarding the importance of that officer's skills and talent

All in all, they act much closer to.. Ciaphas Cain than [Evil Caricature Commissar]. They listen, they make indulgence when necessary.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, but LePic, Fontein, and I can't remember specifically who #3 is - are very much exceptions to the rule; more examples of the 'Worthy Opponent' archetype. You'll see examples of the 'typical' State Security commissar before too long. And I don't think you have even met the most 'subversive' Commissar of the cast yet...

[Dragonus45]

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Spitting distance? I'm not sure they're even sharing the same planetary atmosphere at this point. Michelle Henke managed to compel Crandall's fleet of super dreadnaughts to surrender to a four mixed squadrons of cruisers. Remember how earlier in the series a single unprepared dreadnaught took out a group of battlecruisers? Crandall had 71 super dreadnaughts and 24 battlecruisers to Henke's 14 battlecruisers and 12 cruisers, plus 4 accompanying CLACs. And this wasn't through some clever stage of tactics or ambush. Henke point blank told her opponents what she was going to do, how she was going to do, gave them time to prepare counter measures, and then proceeded to ream them a new one with a single missile salvo. For any of the major "neobarb" navies, a salvo of that size would have been tough, but survivable. The Solarians lost an entire third of their super dreadnaughts.

And that was a love tap compared to what Honor did to Filerta. The only "advantage" the Solarians have at this point is that its likely Manticore and her allies would run out of missiles before the Solarians ran out of ships. What's driving the plot at this point, however, is that its likely the Solarians are going to be losing systems even faster than they lose battles.

@Glyphstone: Which story was your favorite?

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All of that has a lot more to do with where they focused tech than how advanced it is. The Solies biggest weakness is that they have awful tactical doctrine that says that missiles are for skirmishing and real victory comes from closing in and nailing the enemy with direct energy weapons, and as someone else pointed out earlier those were just fine. I have a bad feeling that if the league ever has a chance to get its feet under it and really get a good go at advancing its tech the sheer manpower and production capacity they have could catch up faster than people give them credit for. Although that wont happen because a good dozen local governors are already looking for an excuse to bail and start their own little plots of land and the whole thing will disintegrate long before then.

[Rodin]

Yeah, but LePic, Fontein, and I can't remember specifically who #3 is - are very much exceptions to the rule; more examples of the 'Worthy Opponent' archetype. You'll see examples of the 'typical' State Security commissar before too long. And I don't think you have even met the most 'subversive' Commissar of the cast yet...

I was actually trying to think of some that are in the "shoot the heretic" vein, and I can't really think of many that are shown on-screen (or on page, as it were).

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There's Erasmus Fontein, who stays out of Esther McQueen's way as much as possible but IS watching her like a hawk. We do see them cooperate well together in...A Whiff of Grapeshot I think it is?

Jamka from Fanatic was pretty despicable, and definitely counts as an evil Commissioner. Keppler from the same story was similar.

Other than those, the worst we really see out of the Commissioners that are assigned to Naval vessels is mild incompetence. The really scary guys are the actual StateSec troopers that never have the normalizing effect of working day in and day out with the normal schlubs in the Navy.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, the 'mildly incompetent' Commissar really is the average sort - McQueen even notes this at one point in her internal monologue, that they're pains in the ass not because of their sadism but because they're given authority over something they know nothing or less than nothing about. The sadists probably don't become commissars at all in most cases, since they can choose to be prison guards or security enforcers instead and have more 'fun'.

[Cheesegear]

a Commissar deliberately "not hearing" an officer's accidental disregard of the Committee's regulations regarding equalitarian denomination (Citizen Commander instead of "sir") because he listened to the commander's input regarding the importance of that officer's skills and talent

Foraker is vital to the PRN. It's when she's stationed under Tourville's command that she really shines. But, Tourville - like his opposite, Harrington - can bring out the best in anyone, which is why I compare the two.

[gomipile]

Foraker is vital to the PRN. It's when she's stationed under Tourville's command that she really shines. But, Tourville - like his opposite, Harrington - can bring out the best in anyone, which is why I compare the two.

Shannon Foraker is one of my very favorite characters in the series. She also gets probably the most memorable line of dialogue in the series, for me. That's around book 9 though, I think.

[Rakaydos]

Shannon Foraker is one of my very favorite characters in the series. She also gets probably the most memorable line of dialogue in the series, for me. That's around book 9 though, I think.

Was it "Oops?"

[Gnoman]

Truly a line for the ages, that.

[Cikomyr]

Honor has to go somewhere where her ennemies await, and she doesnt suspect a thing!

Quick lets make a roll call!!

Jared Suton: hello! I am a young eager officer with an idealistic view of the world. I am not supposed to be here today, but i INSISTED on carrying Admiral Harrington's stuff because i am such a dedicated officer.

Arthur Yard: hello! I am a Marines from Honor's armsmen detachment. Since her 2nd regular bodyguard suddenly declared sick, i will be accompanying Honor despite the fact that you never heard of me before

Both: hey! Lets wear Redshirt!!

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, I'm sure you're worried about nothing. It's not like people in Honor's immediate vicinity experience a statistically abnormal uptick in mayhem, murder, and chaotic destruction or anything.

[gomipile]

Was it "Oops?"

Spoiler: Ashes of Victory

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Yes. Yes it was.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Ashes of Victory

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Yes. Yes it was.

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'Oops' is indeed right up there. It's one of the greats alongside "Goodbye, Citizen Chairman", "Do you want this man crippled or dead?", and "Why do people like you always think they're more ruthless than people like me?"