I am in the mood of Militarist Sci-Fi - Spesh Combats!!!

[Cikomyr]

I just spent the last month reading Discword and Dresden Files exclusively. I'm reaching my Fantasy Critical Mass, and my girlfriend's picking up of the Thrawn Trilogy made me realize I want to go back to reading some solid military sci-fi. Give me a whole book of Thrawn pistol-whipping the Republic's Military!!

I've already considered "Honor Harrington" (as you've seen another thread asking about it), but I was wondering maybe there's something else that would entertain me. So far, I've found these series:

- Gaunt's Ghosts (nothing wrong with ground-based military sci fi)
- Honor Harrington
- Royal Ark
- Old Man's War
- The Lost Fleet series
- Risen Empire
- Star Carrier
- Star Force series by BV Larson

There is, obviously, much more out there. can people recommend me something strong and entertaining?

(yes. I have read Starship Troopers and Ender's Game ;) )


edit: Adding titles from Reddit's suggestion

[BWR]

Steve White has some passable books. "The Disinherited" is a rather fun little story of power armor and big bad aliens. Its sequel "Legacy" adds some more stuff, and there's a third book I haven't read but would like to. He also has something called the STarfire series, which sounds to be more milSF, but I haven't read it. Some of his stuff is available free at the Baen Free Library.

David Weber has done a lot more than Honor Harrington. Mostly I was not too impressed with Harrington. He worked with John Ringo on a series starting with "March Upcountry". The first three books were not terribly interesting, but the fourth was decent. "In Fury Born" is an expanded version of the original novel "Path of the fury". I prefer the shorter version, but the expanded has more traditional military SF stuff, not just a vengeance-crazed super soldier with a god in her head and supership at her fingers.

John Ringo has a lot of stuff. The only stuff I've read is his some of the "Legacy of the Aldenata". It was OKish, if you don't mind highly improbable tactics and some blatant pro-crazy militia propaganda. Ringo has some weird ideas, like claiming John Scalzi wins awards because he's liberal.

John Scalzi has a small series starting with "Old man's war" that's a bit diverting. I've only read the first but could easily see myself reading the rest.

Dan Sherman and David Cragg have the StarFIST series, which is about space marines. It's enjoyable pulp if you can get over the marine-wanking (and these are obviously American marines, nevermind that America doesn't exist in the books). It has a spin-off series which is even more testosterone-filled "best of the best of the best, SIR!" stuff.
Sherman also wrote a fantasy marine series where some poor American marine is summoned to a standard fantasy world and rebuilds his beloved corps. It was pretty blah.

[Cikomyr]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Btw, if you have insight regarding any item on the list up-there, please share. I'd like this to be some sort of general reference.

[BWR]

I've heard almost only good things about Gaunt's ghosts, but I haven't read them myself. I gather you really only read them if you are a 40k fan, and one of the most vocal supporters of the series I know is a big Imperial Guard supporter, so take that how you will.

Honor Harrington was ok. I got a bit tired of the extreme character shield and Mary Sue-ness of the character but the space battles were ok.

I read the first book of "The Lost Fleet" and found it pretty boring and I just wanted to hit everyone in it because they were so stupid. I haven't read '"Star carrier" but I read one book in one of his other series, adn it had too much gear listing and stupid and/or evil liberals/peacniks, while all military folks are upstanding moral superbeings (at least that's my memory of it. It's been some years and I've tried to forget the book). That's a tendency in most of Baen's literature, I've noticed, which is why I stopped reading most of the stuff from them.

[Cikomyr]

I've heard almost only good things about Gaunt's ghosts, but I haven't read them myself. I gather you really only read them if you are a 40k fan, and one of the most vocal supporters of the series I know is a big Imperial Guard supporter, so take that how you will.

You friend is obviously a man of refined taste and cunning

Huge IG supporter as well. Probably the most badass people of the entire WH40k Verse. It takes massive courage to face the horrors of this universe while being ye average joe.

Honor Harrington was ok. I got a bit tired of the extreme character shield and Mary Sue-ness of the character but the space battles were ok.

I read the first book of "The Lost Fleet" and found it pretty boring and I just wanted to hit everyone in it because they were so stupid. I haven't read '"Star carrier" but I read one book in one of his other series, adn it had too much gear listing and stupid and/or evil liberals/peacniks, while all military folks are upstanding moral superbeings (at least that's my memory of it. It's been some years and I've tried to forget the book). That's a tendency in most of Baen's literature, I've noticed, which is why I stopped reading most of the stuff from them.

Thanks for your input.

I think I am starting to veer toward Gaunt..

[The Glyphstone]

The Baen Books label in general is a good place to look for mil-sci-fi, if you're willing to accept a certain level of pulpiness. Most of their big-name labels have been mentioned....
-Weber has Harrington for outright naval science fiction, he's also got his Safehold series under Tor Books for a more historical/sci-fi hybrid with blue-water naval combats. In Fury Born/Path of the Fury is a one-off novel that's basically a Kill Bill-esque revenge story IN SPAAAAAACE, but fun all the same.
-Ringo mostly does ground-based science fiction, but it's usually good if you can handle books that bleed little guns and American flags when you cut them (by the love of all that is un/holy, avoid the Paladin of Shadows series though).
-Steve White has some good stuff - the Starfire series is almost 100% space combat.

Outside of Baen, there's always Harry Turtledove and his Worldwar series - aliens invading Earth.

And speaking of 40K and space combat, see if you can track down Execution Hour or Shadow Point, both by Gordon Rennie...they're the only two Battlefleet Gothic-centric official fiction novels I've ever heard of.

[Palanan]

Armor by John Steakey is a classic; it's in the same vein as Starship Troopers while possessing its own identity, slightly grittier and more thoughtful--and the narration isn't nearly so pleased with its own cleverness as Heinlein always was.

However, if Thrawn has put you in a Star Wars mood, then the Republic Commando series by Karen Traviss might be worth checking out. She's a former war journalist who embedded with British Special Forces, and she has a good feel for describing military behavior and technology.

She also does a very nice job of fleshing out Mandalorian culture, in particular their double ethos of martial prowess and extended family. And Traviss is extremely sympathetic to the clones themselves, and her novels are alive to the nuance of outwardly similar men who are each very different in their thoughts and emotions.

The series starts with Hard Contact, develops through several more books to Order 66, and then picks up as Imperial Commando: 501st. That should give you a hint about the period she covers.



.

[The Glyphstone]

Though if you're not of the opinion that Mandalorians are God's gift to Star Wars and the setting would be vastly better without those stupid Jedi reducing the amount of awesome available for the Mandalorians, Traviss may not be the writer for you.

[Cikomyr]

Though if you're not of the opinion that Mandalorians are God's gift to Star Wars and the setting would be vastly better without those stupid Jedi reducing the amount of awesome available for the Mandalorians, Traviss may not be the writer for you.

I love Jedi in the Star Wars setting, but I love when other protagonists/groups step up and take the spotlight away from these Mary Sue..

Just like Thrawn. I mean, there's a reason everybody I know keep talking about the trilogy as "Thrawn's Trilogy" rather than its french name: "La Croisade noire du Jedi fou" (the Mad Jedi's Black Crusade). C'Baoth is nothing but a side-villain hired by the true move and shaker of the trilogy. Thrawn is the ultimate "mundane badass".

So.. I don't mind Mandalorian wank-off, as long as it's somewhat consistent, and not overly mary-sue ish. I prefer my "awesome species" to have deep flaws in them.

[BWR]

Armor by John Steakey is a classic; it's in the same vein as Starship Troopers while possessing its own identity, slightly grittier and more thoughtful--and the narration isn't nearly so pleased with its own cleverness as Heinlein always was.

However, if Thrawn has put you in a Star Wars mood, then the Republic Commando series by Karen Traviss might be worth checking out. She's a former war journalist who embedded with British Special Forces, and she has a good feel for describing military behavior and technology.

She also does a very nice job of fleshing out Mandalorian culture, in particular their double ethos of martial prowess and extended family. And Traviss is extremely sympathetic to the clones themselves, and her novels are alive to the nuance of outwardly similar men who are each very different in their thoughts and emotions.

The series starts with Hard Contact, develops through several more books to Order 66, and then picks up as Imperial Commando: 501st. That should give you a hint about the period she covers.



.

I forgot about "Armor"! Definitely the best on the list so far.
It is best to stay away from the Travissty. Hard Contact was good, but she got increasingly insane with her wanking of how awesome the Mandalorians are, how evil and useless and spineless and morally corrupt the Jedi are, how a culture dedicated to war and killing is somehow better than one dedicated to peace and tolerance, how Jedi are incapable of fighting properly without learning from Mandalorians, how Mandalorian armor is suddenly lightsaber-proof, how treachery and illegal stuff is ok if clones/Mandos do it...

*huff huff huff*

In short, I'm not the biggest fan of Traviss.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BWR
In short, I'm not the biggest fan of Traviss.

Noted.





--Really, I can understand where you're coming from, and it did somewhat annoy me that she had a clear personal bias against the Jedi.

That said, by itself this gives her a very different perspective than most of the writers in the EU, and while I don't always agree with her take, it also makes her one of the best people to provide a sympathetic portrait of the clones.

As for the emphasis on the Mandalorians, that didn't really bother me per se, because I enjoyed the exploration of Mandalorian history and culture. I've only read a small portion of the Star Wars EU, and some most virtually all of the novels struck me as slush-pile scrapings that were hardly worth the cover price. Whatever her shortcomings in terms of Jedi respect, Traviss does have extensive personal experience interacting with military personnel, and that comes through very convincingly. They're some of the best-written novels I've come across in the EU. (And gawd, after Labyrinth of Eeeeeeeevil I just quit.)

What did annoy me, I have to say, is the increasingly soppy tone of some of the later books, as the tough-as-Wookiee-nails Mandalorian sergeant keeps breaking down about how much he loves his clone soldier boys, as well as the increasingly pat pairing-off of various clone soldiers with this or that randomly acquired available female. --Okay, maybe not quite that bad, but it started to feel like that once they set up their homestead on Mandalore. The various relationships were reasonably well-developed, but the interpersonal storyline began to weigh down the trajectory of the series overall.

All of that said, I would still emphasize that it's worth reading Hard Contact, which has plenty of special-ops action and a nice overview of all the high-tech toys packed into their armor and kit. You'll get a feel for the characters and the style from the first novel, and can decide whether to go on from there.

[GloatingSwine]

--Really, I can understand where you're coming from, and it did somewhat annoy me that she had a clear personal bias against the Jedi.

I dunno, Traviss has mostly bought into the mythos of the special forces as unstoppable god-men who will, by the power of their military awesomeness, win forever. She basically reused everything she did with the Mandalorians in her Gears of War books.

I mean it must have taken effort to ruin the story of Gears of War, there wasn't a lot to work with, but she managed it with the story for Gears 3.

[Flickerdart]

Iain M. Banks does some great starship stuff in his Culture series. People normally say that you should read Player of Games (the second book) first, but for your purposes, Consider Phlebas (the first book) would be a great start. The starship combat in that book really takes the cake, and leaves Star Wars and its pseudo-WWII dogfights in the dust.

Lois McMaster Bujold has a neat series of books, the Vorkosigan Saga. It's more focused on fleet stuff - the titular Miles Vorkosigan is a strategist more so than pilot - but there's a lot of spacey explosions nevertheless.

For the most creative alien races I've seen outside of Star Control's Orz, there's David Brin and the Uplift Trilogy. These books usually focus on planet-side stuff but like the Vorkosigan books, plenty of altercations are solved with ship to ship combat.

[Aotrs Commander]

I read the first book of "The Lost Fleet" and found it pretty boring and I just wanted to hit everyone in it because they were so stupid.

Bare in mind the incompetance of the various antagonist captains is not only plausible but actually has happened. The author has literally read the exact same books as I have on the subject of military incompetance (as I found after I read the about the author section in the back after finsihing the first novel), to the point I was nodding to myself and recognising all the blunders and mistakes they made from their historical roots.

So, while the stupidity is there - it's, frighteningly, historical stupidity.



(I love the series personally, it vaulted right into my top favorites. It is, after all, centrally about starships, with some military history thrown in.)

[Philistine]

I'm astonished that David Drake didn't get a mention in the "big names of Baen" listing above. His RCN books are straight-up space opera inspired by O'Brien's Aubrey-Maturin books, while his Hammer's Slammers stories (mostly shorts and novellas), about a gritty ground-based mercenary company, were among the major drivers of the mil-SF boom in the 80s and 90s.

You might also look at Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series, or Elizabeth Moon's Vatta books. Or Joe Haldeman, for a radically different take on the subgenre. Or, you know, just look at this.

EDIT: I should have looked at that list before I hit "Submit," because I left off Glen Cook. He's better known for serial fantasy, but his mil-SF work (especially Passage at Arms and The Dragon Never Sleeps) is excellent.

[Reverent-One]

However, if Thrawn has put you in a Star Wars mood, then the Republic Commando series by Karen Traviss might be worth checking out. She's a former war journalist who embedded with British Special Forces, and she has a good feel for describing military behavior and technology.

Holy cow, another person who enjoys Traviss's Star Wars work on these forums. I had pretty much accepted these were not the forums for people of such opinions.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One
Holy cow, another person who enjoys Traviss's Star Wars work on these forums. I had pretty much accepted these were not the forums for people of such opinions.

The few, the proud.

*clonefist*

[russdm]

Holy cow, another person who enjoys Traviss's Star Wars work on these forums. I had pretty much accepted these were not the forums for people of such opinions.

I like the books and my favorite moment is when Captain Maze calls out Skirata for instilling such an obsession with Mando culture in the clones. Its awesome. My favorite character is Bardan Jusik, because he is a jedi that actually believes in his principles or at least the principles the Jedi claim to follow.

These books do bring up an interesting point that was never covered by many other books: How can the Jedi justify using an army of clones who are effectively child soldiers like the Jedi order and using them to defend the Republic instead of its citizens?

This is something that I think most Jedi fanbois don't ever pay any attention to. It happens to be something that should have been examined or discussed. At least one author calls the Jedi on it, even though her books are despised, probably because she brought up the fact that the Jedi can and do make mistakes.

[J-H]

3 shelves worth of books that I'm happy to have in my collection:

Second vote for David Drake. Quite a bit of the Hammer's Slammers series is inspired by some of his experiences with the 11th ACR in Vietnam.

The Bolos series (Keith Laumer and following authors) is good if you don't mind your space combat being ruined by AI-controlled tanks that have the ability to fire into orbit with a capital-grade weapon (plasma at .7c) every 1.3s. Mind you, it's not good to be un-shielded anywhere near a Bolo when its Hellbores are running full tilt on ground-to-orbit fire, but it works. The Bolo AIs are more noble than we humans.

Larry Niven's Known Space setting has plenty of wars between the ratcats Kzinti and humans. I think the Man-Kzin Wars anthologies (2-5 stories per thick book) are up to number XI or XII. Mixed bag on theme, content, amount of space battle, etc. Protector is a straight-up classic and contains the best-handled "fraction of the speed of light" combat I have ever seen depicted.

[The Glyphstone]

\

This is something that I think most Jedi fanbois don't ever pay any attention to. It happens to be something that should have been examined or discussed. At least one author calls the Jedi on it, even though her books are despised, probably because she brought up the fact that the Jedi can and do make mistakes.

Now Traviss is a ostracized genius, hated for her willingness to buck the party line and speak the truths no one else is willing to admit? I thought she was a fiction author, not a maverick journalist.

The Bolos series (Keith Laumer and following authors) is good if you don't mind your space combat being ruined by AI-controlled tanks that have the ability to fire into orbit with a capital-grade weapon (plasma at .7c) every 1.3s. Mind you, it's not good to be un-shielded anywhere near a Bolo when its Hellbores are running full tilt on ground-to-orbit fire, but it works. The Bolo AIs are more noble than we humans.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Bolos. Not good stories for people who like unconditionally happy endings, though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
I thought she was a fiction author, not a maverick journalist.

Former journalist; don't know about the maverick part.

There are some deep ethical issues with the use of the clone army, some of which were at least touched on in the Clone Wars animated series, which may or may not have been addressed elsewhere in the EU. Traviss brought up some of these early on in her books, and while her treatment wasn't exactly profound, she certainly humanized the clone soldiers in a way that hadn't been done before.

The balance of this is her iconoclastic view of the Jedi and their place in the Republic. And since she's writing from the Mandalorian perspective, I don't really mind her delving deep into that mindset. The fact is that not everyone in the galaxy will view the Jedi as heroes; not everyone will have a reason to.

Now, Traviss does okay within the rather limp standards of the EU; but as far as predesigned clones with set lifespans, C.J. Cherryh has done far more nuanced and comprehensive work with the azi of the Union, vat-grown humans who are programmed with elegant psych codes to fill any number of societal functions. C.J. really explores the issues that Traviss only touches on--sometimes in a military context, sometimes civilian, and more often through limited civil strife.



Speaking of C.J.--and back to the OP--there's also the Faded Sun trilogy, which explores the culture of a nearly-extinct race of warriors through the eyes of a human soldier who's taken prisoner and forced to adapt to their lifestyle. There's more than a hint of desert-warrior to the mri, and the trilogy has a mix of military action, interstellar sojourning and the thoughtful xenoanthropology that C.J. does so well. Her bleak depiction of the dying mri homeworld, with its deep ocean basins now salty desert, the former landmasses now arid highlands, has stayed with me for many years.

.

[Ravens_cry]

Dread Empire's Fall (a series) is interesting, both for its space combat and its intrigue in a world that isn't very nice, brutally striated with limited upward mobility and is just plane brutal yet it isn't villainized exactly either.

[Philistine]

This is something that I think most Jedi fanbois don't ever pay any attention to. It happens to be something that should have been examined or discussed. At least one author calls the Jedi on it, even though her books are despised, probably because she brought up the fact that the Jedi can and do make mistakes.

Even if Jedi fanboys (Is "fanbois" meant to be insulting? Because it really, really looks like it's meant as a deliberate insult.) were that much of a problem in the EU, making up an even bigger bunch of Designated Setting Mary Sues is not a particularly good way to deal with that. And the KotOR cRPGs called out the Jedi on questionable behaviors over a year before Traviss's first book showed up in print - and BioWare did it better, even apart from the way they didn't try to proclaim that a band of savage, slave-taking, genocidal galactic-scale psychopaths were suddenly morally superior to a semi-monastic order that is explicitly, canonically, Powered By Good.

[Brother Oni]

The only problem with Gaunt is that it's a Napoleonic era army in space, so if you're after futuristic sci-fi, there may be a number of anachronistic moments.
The Ciaphas Cain books are much more along the lines of modern military sci-fi, although the tone is very different to Gaunt.

With regard to the Culture series, I would recommend Excession if you want space combat - there's a frantic dogfight in that which showcases how their technology is so far beyond most other series, it's frightening.

[Aotrs Commander]

This is something that I think most Jedi fanbois don't ever pay any attention to. It happens to be something that should have been examined or discussed. At least one author calls the Jedi on it, even though her books are despised, probably because she brought up the fact that the Jedi can and do make mistakes.

You mean, aside from the pants-on-head idiocy they display so repeatedly the Jedi Order has been virtually wiped out about three times (that we know of); the latest occurance of which was caused solely by their own ineptitude during the Clone Wars?

I think the canon rather speaks for itself that far from being infallible, the Jedi are frequently the polar opposite... (Says the Imperial loyalist. Still, I accuse the Jedi of stupidiity and incompetance, not of being more morally bankrupt than the guy who siezed control of the galaxy and murder billions of people...)

They always go on about how there are only two Sith... As if they are proud of the fact that it only takes TWO DUDES to oppose and often hand the entire order their arses on a platter! If I were the Jedi, I might be a little more circumspect about bragging about that. (Mind you, I cannot concieve on any situation wherein I would be a Jedi.)

I will grant you, that the moribund average of the EU novelists do give the Jedi FAAR too much emphasis (and power) though.

(And this is why I not long ago, having realised I'd read everything RotJ => Survivor's Quest and a few beyond, actually got rid of about twenty books when it ocurred to me the only ones I was likely to read again was Zhan, Stackpole, Allston and the Corellian Trilogy. Which cleared a lot of book-space, I can tell you.)

Traviss' opinion was just as ridiculous as the zealous pro-Jedi, but in the opposite direction. However, the most damning thing I can say about her was that I gave up halfway through her last book (and this before I was aware of her leanings and was only mildly puzzled as to why the author of the Cone Wars movie novelisation had so many more Clone Troopers survive) because I was bored. (Though to be fair, it was part of the post-Zhan period - NJO onward - which I found increasinly unreadable anyway.) I HAD wondered what in the hey Boba Fett had got to do with the price of beans in the context of the events of the time, though...

[hamishspence]

It is best to stay away from the Travissty.

Never really liked that term - seems unnecessarily dismissive.

Traviss's most common theme seems to be "mercenaries = good, creators of child soldiers = bad". Even her own work (rather than franchise work) tends to have mercenary protagonists.

[BWR]

Never really liked that term - seems unnecessarily dismissive.

Traviss's most common theme seems to be "mercenaries = good, creators of child soldiers = bad". Even her own work (rather than franchise work) tends to have mercenary protagonists.

It seems very appropriate considering her approach to the SW universe. As I said, glorifying super soldiers and the Mandalorian culture of waging war while reducing just about all Jedi to morally corrupt idiots and wanking spec forces/Mandos to ridiculous levels makes a travesty of SW.

[Reverent-One]

It seems very appropriate considering her approach to the SW universe. As I said, glorifying super soldiers and the Mandalorian culture of waging war while reducing just about all Jedi to morally corrupt retards and wanking spec forces/Mandos to ridiculous levels makes a travesty of SW.

Good thing she didn't do that then, isn't it? Despite the issues with the organization, the actual Jedi in the Republic Commando series are decent people. She also doesn't treat the Mandos as perfect by a long shot, they certainly think their way is right and all, but why wouldn't they? It's the philosphy they chose to follow, it would make no sense for them to think someone else has a better one and still stick with their own. Her "wanking" of Mando capabilties is exaggerated as well, how many actual Jedi do Mandos or clones beat in her books? Answer: not many.

[BWR]

Good thing she didn't do that then, isn't it? Despite the issues with the organization, the actual Jedi in the Republic Commando series are decent people. She also doesn't treat the Mandos as perfect by a long shot, they certainly think their way is right and all, but why wouldn't they? It's the philosphy they chose to follow, it would make no sense for them to think someone else has a better one and still stick with their own. Her "wanking" of Mando capabilties is exaggerated as well, how many actual Jedi do Mandos or clones beat in her books? Answer: not many.

We have read different books, then because all I remember is Mandalorians being awesome and everyone else being lesser. Unless they aspire to be Mandalorian, in which case they are ok. You know, the two Jedi that actually have any real page space in the Commando books. And of course the Jedi are evil for baby-snatching (which they didn't do) and leading the clones. No real comment on the rest of the Republic that I can recall. You know, the people who actually accepted it and the government which put the Jedi in charge.

Other marks against her:
- 3 million man clone army
- her Mandalorian 'language'
- Boba Fett resurfacing and leading 'reborn' Mandos
- Boba Frtt going from badass amoral bounty hunter to proud warrior leader awesome god
- Mandalorian iri
- Daala as chief of state in the new galactic whatever it was called. (Daala! planet-destroying pscyho incompetant Daala through author-fiat got to the head of government over the entire galaxy without any wondering how she got there)
- utter bitch to anyone who dares question her genius
- in shot, I think this link says it better than I.

[hamishspence]

Denning was the one whose book has Daala become Chief of State (Invincible).

3 million man clone army was extrapolated from 1 million man figure in novelizations of AOTC.