3.5 Thinaun rule question

[Akirababe]

Hey, question for you guys. I've been ninja-stalking the forum for a long time and finally have a question I couldn't find an answer for.
My hubby is wanting to create an Assassin type character (loads of cross-classing and prestige classes; whole other story, gong show of calculations xP) and he was really interested in the material named in Complete Warrior - Thinaun. (pg 136)... I will take verbatim what the page says on it for the purposes of discussion;

"Thinaun: This dark, glittering steel alloy holds an attraction to souls recently released from their bodies. Obviously, this has application for melee weapons. If a thinaun melee weapon is touching a creature when it dies, that creature’s soul is sucked into the weapon rather than passing on to its final reward. [...]"

Now the question is; does this mean the blade has to be inserted into the victim, or the hammer crushing it's skull? Does the entire weapon HAVE to be made from this material to be of any use in sucking the soul in?

From the description, I take away that the weapon merely has to be making contact with the victim to pull it's soul, not that it has to be performing the act of slicing/poking/smacking away the last hit points. The reason we ask about this is because he wants to be able to do kill contracts and offer the soul in Thinaun for an extra charge (thus denying the target a resurrection to point a finger, or return to whatever they were doing when someone decided they needed to die). We were discussing the option of having a spot in the hilt where a crafted stone of Thinaun could be swapped out to absorb a new soul; similar in practice to augment crystals. That way he can hold onto the souls separately for each contract, and even potentially kill three in one battle without any silly ritual to pull it from the blade. Rather than have him carry around fifty daggers (or katanas, as he seems to be aiming for... even worse, right?)

We also had a debate pop up about the time of "death" according to game rules. Would it be considered as that final hit point ticking off, then BAM, dead? Or would there be a short limbo period where the assassin five feet away could swing his weapon and touch the victim, thus taking its soul?

Personally, as a DM, I would rule in favour of a stone in the hilt being substantially close enough to absorb the soul, as it's part of the weapon (the book doesn't say the material has to be touching, just "the weapon", which should include the hilt in the case of a dagger- or sword-blade made of it), and that so long as he could close the distance within a round and touch his weapon to the victim, he could absorb the soul into the stone. I base that off of the rules for Psionic Revivify, which states: "The power must be manifested within 1 round of the victim’s death. Before the psyche of the deceased has completely left the body, this power halts its journey while repairing somewhat the damage to the body." To me it sounds like you have a short period of limbo before the soul is actually drifted out of the body. Even though they use the word "psyche".

Any thoughts, ideas, opinions, or rules I missed?

[Pan151]

The text is pretty clear. The weapon needs to be touching the creature. No need for anything else.

Of course, if it's a swappable piece of thinaun like you're suggesting, then we're not talking about a thinaun weapon in the first place. It's entirely up to the DM to rule how and if that contraption works.

As for the time of death, unless there's some official definition that I'm not aware of, I would assume it to be the exact moment that the creature reaches -10 (or 0 for undead, or -20 for those with certain feats, or the moment a FB's Frenzy ends, or whatever point in general the creature goes from "healable" to "needs full on ressurection magic"). Immediaty after that instant the soul is gone.

[illyahr]

Of course, that is what Rule 0 is for. When the rules aren't clear, DM wins.

[Zombimode]

Personally, as a DM, I would rule in favour of a stone in the hilt being substantially close enough to absorb the soul, as it's part of the weapon (the book doesn't say the material has to be touching, just "the weapon", which should include the hilt in the case of a dagger- or sword-blade made of it), and that so long as he could close the distance within a round and touch his weapon to the victim, he could absorb the soul into the stone. I base that off of the rules for Psionic Revivify, which states: "The power must be manifested within 1 round of the victim’s death. Before the psyche of the deceased has completely left the body, this power halts its journey while repairing somewhat the damage to the body." To me it sounds like you have a short period of limbo before the soul is actually drifted out of the body. Even though they use the word "psyche".

Any thoughts, ideas, opinions, or rules I missed?

A weapon that has some Thinaun parts on it is not a Thinaun weapon as far as the rules are concerned, in the same way that a steel sword with a silver hilt is not a silver weapon.
Essentially, you are talking about discarding the disadvantage of a Thinaun weapon. If you're fine with this, sure, go ahead. It wouldn't fly in my games, though.

[Darrin]

Thinaun is a special material. In order for a weapon to be considered as made from a special material, over 50% of the weapon must be made from that material. If you want a removable slug inside a bladed weapon, then the Hilt Hollow rules in Dungeonscape might be worth a look. However, putting a thinaun slug inside a weapon that weighs more than 50% of the entire weapon might throw the weapon off-balance. The weapon crafting rules don't really go into this kind of detail, though.

You'd probably be better off with a weapon that normally has a wooden haft with a metal tip, such as an axe, warhammer, or spear. Then you just remove the metal portion and craft/buy yourself a new head.

Now the question is; does this mean the blade has to be inserted into the victim, or the hammer crushing it's skull?

No. By RAW, a weapon made from a special material counts as that special material regardless of the striking surface. So long as 50% or more of the weapon is made from thinaun, then any part of the weapon touching the victim at the time of death counts. As the description of thinaun points out, this applies to the wielder as well, so even if you're holding the non-bladed non-metal hilt of a sword, you can suck your own soul into the blade if you die while holding a thinaun sword.

Does the entire weapon HAVE to be made from this material to be of any use in sucking the soul in?

No, just more than 50%. If it's less than 50%, then it doesn't count as a thinaun weapon.

We also had a debate pop up about the time of "death" according to game rules. Would it be considered as that final hit point ticking off, then BAM, dead? Or would there be a short limbo period where the assassin five feet away could swing his weapon and touch the victim, thus taking its soul?

Ideally, you want the thinaun weapon to deal the killing blow, which would be whatever attack takes the victim down below -9 hit points. I don't see anything in the rules that would suggest there's a "grace period".

I thought arrows might be the ideal thinaun weapon, since they presumably get stuck inside an opponent until they are removed, but unfortunately the thinaun description explicitly says the soul-sucking only works with melee weapons. Still, there are a few melee weapons that stay attached to an opponent. The harpoon (Frostburn) is probably the most notable, as it does damage when it's removed.

[Bronk]

As an added aside, the spell 'revivify' specifies that the soul lingers for one round after 'death'.

[Necroticplague]

The rules don't allow for the kind of thinaun weapon crystal you want. However, you could just use a thinaum arrow, which are pretty cheap. Use a weapon with the Nonlethal property to knock them out, then CDG them with the arrow (improvised weapon), killing them.