OOTS #957 - The Discussion Thread

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wait a minute. I thought of a better idea on how Belkar could attack Durkula.

Remember that Kobold YikYik?

Belkar runs to the nearest Tavern, and posts a sign that says, "Halfling threatened by nearby vampire..."

I think that the High Priest of Hel would be far harder to take out in that manner than a single kobold. Especially because if Belkar does this by himself, the rest of the Order may defend the High Priest of Hel.

[Angelalex242]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

[Keltest]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

Well sure, but Belkar would have to actually pay them, or they might kill him too! Plus, who says all of them will be able to save against his dominate?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

However, since the challenge is harder, the amount of adventurers able to actual complete it (since the High Priest of Hel has an epic ECL) will be a lot less, and the majority of them would be unwilling to risk their lives or freedom just for whatever measly reward Belkar can pay.

Admittedly, it's a better idea than Belkar merely attacking him head-on, but it's still not a great idea.

[Angelalex242]

Oh, no. Durkula's not an Epic Challenge.

His ECL is +8 to be sure, but his CR is only 15 or 16.

That's not to say he isn't dangerous, he is, but the first wizard to come along and roll well on his dispel magic or greater dispel magic will finish Durkula off right there.

Hell, one little antimagic aura, and Durkula is SCREWED (assuming it's daytime)

[Kish]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

I think it would more likely go like when the mob of humans attacks Zod, Ursa, and Non in Superman 2.

The High Priest of Hel is an epic-level challenge, and a half-dragon's lightning breath does more lethal damage than 99% of the people in the world can withstand. It would involve a whole lot of the High Priest shrugging off hits because they're not from silver magical weapons and didn't do over 10 points of damage, a smaller amount of people inflicting trifiling damage on him with massive blows or with spells and it being regenerated in the next round, and a great deal of blood spilling, some of it probably getting drunk.

Edited: You mean, the first wizard to roll well on his Dispel check (or the first level 11+ wizard to randomly pop up as part of a Belkar flashmob and have Greater Dispelling prepared; on an unrelated note, let me just comment that I wish people would quit imposing the Forgotten Realms' ridiculous power-bloat on settings where there's no evidence of it?) would make Durkon spend his next action using the staff to rebuff himself? I can't even figure out what to do with the "one little antimagic aura" claim, since it strikes me as comparable to saying, "One little automatically-obliterate-all-undead spell, and the High Priest of Hel is screwed!"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh, no. Durkula's not an Epic Challenge.

His ECL is +8 to be sure, but his CR is only 15 or 16.

That's not to say he isn't dangerous, he is, but the first wizard to come along and roll well on his dispel magic or greater dispel magic will finish Durkula off right there.

Hell, one little antimagic aura, and Durkula is SCREWED (assuming it's daytime)

Only 15 or 16? How many high-level adventuring parties do you think there are? How many high-level wizards (who usually don't make it past 10th level) just hang around in taverns? If there is a scenario where the High Priest of Hel is walking about near a tavern in the day time, he's sure to have made sure he knows how to cast his protections spell know, and he has the backups from his staff.

[Keltest]

Edited: You mean, the first wizard to roll well on his Dispel check (or the first level 11+ wizard to randomly pop up as part of a Belkar flashmob and have Greater Dispelling prepared; on an unrelated note, let me just comment that I wish people would quit imposing the Forgotten Realms' ridiculous power-bloat on settings where there's no evidence of it?) would make Durkon spend his next action using the staff to rebuff himself? I can't even figure out what to do with the "one little antimagic aura" claim, since it strikes me as comparable to saying, "One little automatically-obliterate-all-undead spell, and the High Priest of Hel is screwed!"

You may have noticed that Angelalex has a somewhat poor grasp on the scale of the mechanics whenever he discusses them. No offense to him, but things like "Kill the vampire with an antimagic aura from a random tavern mage" and "just equip a legion of paladins with a phylactery of faithfulness" aren't remotely plausible, story wise or mechanics wise.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Smolder]

Just read the new comic for the first time and I laughed several times. I really liked the failed search and the suggestions! I mean, who would have thought that the vampire's vulnerability would be from the lack of any real relationship between Belkar and Durkon in the first 900 strips or so? How many other queries can Durkon thwart due to lack of social development with his team members? Durkon's lack of character development is now his strength! Seriously, that's a lot of groundwork to lay for a panel 3 gag. I am impressed.

[xyzchyx]

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.

[Keltest]

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.

easy. all he needs to do is threaten to kill Belkar if he continues harassing him. Killing him right now would inconvenience the HPoH far more than killing him would after his cover is blown.

[Angelalex242]

First, the phylacteries only cost 1000 gp a shot. Any halfway decent adventurer can afford that from level 3 onwards due to WBL.

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

[Ramien]

Belkar does indeed get the best lines...

I do found myself feeling sorry for Roy, though. I'm sure he'd thought that the party infighting would be done, and now Belkar and Lurky Corpsewhiskers are going at it... and the 'pranks' are a lot more lethal than what Belkar and V ever had going on.

I am going to have to save that last threat for the next time I fight a vampire in a game, though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

The question remains, why is there an 11th level mage hanging around in a tavern when they are supposedly very rare?

[Keltest]

First, the phylacteries only cost 1000 gp a shot. Any halfway decent adventurer can afford that from level 3 onwards due to WBL.

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

The gold cost does not accurately reflect the actual availability of such an item. A vorpal sword might seem relatively accessible to a wealthy kingdom if you look at it from a pure gold standpoint, but you aren't going to equip a town guard with it, let alone a legion of paladins. Likewise, while greater dispelling might be a handy spell to have, 11th+ level mages are not remotely common, and while Rich did do a one shot joke about idle adventuring parties, they killed a kobold. They could all be level 1 commoners and still achieve that with the numbers they had.

[Kish]

Jaxzan Proditor addressed the big problem here, so I'm just going to say:

It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

No, it's like while "Belkar posts a note outside a tavern and a mob appears" could be part of a joke (again), "there's at least one 11th-level spellcaster in this mob rather than a bunch of low-levels" seriously strains the joke and "the prepared spellcasters in the mob also chose their spells that morning with an eye to fighting a vampire under a sunlight-resistance spell" takes it all the way to "if Rich wanted to be that heavy-handed, why didn't he simply draw a picture of himself stomping on the High Priest of Hel? It would actually have humor potential that way."

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.

Yes, indulging his temper was a mistake.

No, it wasn't nearly the mistake you're claiming it is, mainly because of the inaccuracy of your repeated-twice-in-this-post claim that jumping off the ship was suicide.

Ten gold says that if Belkar brings it up to Roy at all, it will be in the context of an aggravating prank similar to Vaarsuvius casting Explosive Runes, and if Belkar tries to make it more than that, both Roy and the High Priest of Hel will snort at him. Ten gold also says that Belkar will live to talk to Roy again.

(In the spirit of full disclosure, I should mention that if Belkar does die here, I expect to be readily able to pay off that second bet, or a lot of much larger bets, from collecting on the bets I've made over the years with people who think Belkar will somehow evade the prophecy.)

[Weiser_Cain]

This is why I equip myself with something to grant immunity to mind-affecting effects.

[xyzchyx]

No, it wasn't nearly the mistake you're claiming it is, mainly because of the inaccuracy of your repeated-twice-in-this-post claim that jumping off the ship was suicide.

They are over a whole lot of water... possibly even an ocean. While any drop would not necessarily be instantly fatal, it would still probably result in death. Telling Belkar to jump overboard is equivalent to asking him to kill himself, albeit in a way that makes for good physical comedy... and I already know that plot trumps rules.

[Kish]

This is why I equip myself with something to grant immunity to mind-affecting effects.

Baneful Transposition!

Spoiler: Explaining the joke

Show

The joke is that characters who rely on immunity to mind-affecting effects generally dump their Will save, leaving them incredibly vulnerable to Baneful Transposition, a spell with a Will save that isn't classified as a mind-affecting spell.

[Jon the Wizard]

I would've told him to also do a flip.

[Kish]

[Reassertion that it is so committing suicide]

Not interested in the bet, eh? Too bad.

[Weiser_Cain]

Baneful Transposition!

Spoiler: Explaining the joke

Show

The joke is that characters who rely on immunity to mind-affecting effects generally dump their Will save, leaving them incredibly vulnerable to Baneful Transposition, a spell with a Will save that isn't classified as a mind-affecting spell.

I play an Eldritch Knight, It's not great but it's not complete crap. Which describes everything I do as an EK.

[Ivrytwr]

Sorry! The memory you searched for can not be found.
Nice! Thanks Giant

[Jay R]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?

That's the sort of clear-headed, long-range planning that somebody with high wisdom would be expected to figure out.

I would also note that the 404 doesn't mean there are no friendly memories.

Of course there are friendly memories. But he restricted the search to things only Belkar and Durkon would know about. The eliminates watching Haley search a door, for instance, since the experience was shared with Elan and Roy.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Sometimes, I wonder what we would make of these last few strips if we hadn't learned how OOTS vampires work. I like to read the old arguments.

Nokrud/Yeerkon/Darkon/Not-Durkon/Jerkon/Durk-Malacksen/Hpoh/hippo/Count-Durkula/DurkHelson/Blackbeard/vampire-Durkon is less convincing now than back in the days of "'Twas not meself when I drank yer blood", I think this " jump overboard" would have sealed it for us, argument-wise.

[Keltest]

Sometimes, I wonder what we would make of these last few strips if we hadn't learned how OOTS vampires work. I like to read the old arguments.

Nokrud/Yeerkon/Darkon/Not-Durkon/Jerkon/Durk-Malacksen/Hpoh/hippo/Count-Durkula/DurkHelson/Blackbeard/vampire-Durkon is less convincing now than back in the days of "'Twas not meself when I drank yer blood", I think this " jump overboard" would have sealed it for us, argument-wise.

You kidding? These are the OOTS forums. People would just say that its his evil side coming out.

[WindStruck]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...

Also: I bet V suspects it isn't the real Durkon either, but has kept his mouth shut. He just might start preparing that spell though.

[Keltest]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...

Also: I bet V suspects it isn't the real Durkon either, but has kept his mouth shut. He just might start preparing that spell though.

Durkon has made no pretenses that he is not evil, though he hasn't outright said "Im evil, but otherwise the same." When asked about it, he basically shrugged. It should not be news at this point.

[Kish]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...

How so?

(Even if you're under the impression most of the Order would be surprised to learn that Vampire Durkon is evil...that spell wouldn't tell them. Check the description again; all the Protection from Alignment spells bar all forms of mind control, regardless of the controller. Protection from Good would block the High Priest of Hel's domination as effectively as Protection from Evil would.)