Group Rolls

[Water Bob]

Let's say you've got five bandit archers on each side of a trail, hiding, lying in wait to ambush the PCs as the player characters come walking down the trail, single file.

Is there a good way to handle the hide throws for the group? Take 10, and use the lowest roll on each side of trail?

[hymer]

The bandits should all take ten. This eliminates the high risk of a weak roll ruining all chances of surprise, and it makes the DM's job easier, giving (presumably) a single DC for Spot to aim for (though modified for distance, of course).
The PC group should roll as the players want. Some may want to take 10, some may want to roll, and it's up to them to decide. Basically for the ambush to be averted, someone has to roll well enough to spot the nearest bandit before they attack.

[Malaqai]

I like to have a number of prerolled perception checks handy so that I don't have to key my players into the fact that they've just missed something sneaky.

[HighWater]

Let's say you've got five bandit archers on each side of a trail, hiding, lying in wait to ambush the PCs as the player characters come walking down the trail, single file.

Is there a good way to handle the hide throws for the group? Take 10, and use the lowest roll on each side of trail?

If your bandits have time to hide (they have carefully set up this ambush and they know someone is coming, which is quite likely seeing the noise a party of PCs makes when not actively sneaking), they can totally take 20, rather than 10. Unlike climbing, where every move you make has to be at least good enough or else you'll fall (take 10), you can try hiding behind a pebble, try hiding in a fluorescent pink and yellow outfit, try hiding by taking off all your clothes and do other weird stuff before realising that the best way to hide in a forest is probably to dress something like a sniper and carefully conceal yourself behind some bushes.

This means the PC's need to beat a 20+ the lowest Hide (+distance +circumstances) modifier when walking into a prearranged trap. If the bandits are just run of the mill bandits, the DC will be around 20. If the bandits have levels in ranger, the PCs may have trouble spotting them before the trap is sprung. The PC's get to roll individually, so the larger their number, the higher the chance that one of them will get lucky and spot something.

Another way to properly ambush people is by means of total cover and/or total concealment: they don't even get a spot check, though this means the bandits have to be able to judge when to spring into action without exposing themselves to the PC's.


Be aware though, this is definitely a favorable terrain encounter-level bonus! The bandits have a clear advantage in both examples, so be sure to factor this into the CR.

[hymer]

If your bandits have time to hide (they have carefully set up this ambush and they know someone is coming, which is quite likely seeing the noise a party of PCs makes when not actively sneaking), they can totally take 20, rather than 10.

This makes real-world sense, but I don't agree on the interpretation (and definitely not 'totally').
Since taking twenty takes twenty times as long, you need some specific time period to multiply. Hiding is either not an action or part of another action, with sniping as the obvious exception. Also, I see no rules reason why you should be allowed to keep an old Hide check for extended periods when the spotters are not even around. It's a very generous interpretation that you can take the bad part of 20 when there's no risk, and only take the good part when there is risk.
You can still get something like what you're aiming for by giving the bandits circumstance bonuses, which is clearly within the rules. Just be consistent about it, as the PCs should expect to be able to gain the same bonus as well.

[Water Bob]

This makes real-world sense, but I don't agree on the interpretation (and definitely not 'totally').
Since taking twenty takes twenty times as long, you need some specific time period to multiply.

Yes, that's a good comment. And, the time period is easy to figure. Just answer what scale the game is being played on at the time: Tactical, Local, or Overland. That scenario would drop down to the Local scale (probably dropped down from the Overland scale), which means that the time period is one minute.

In order to Take 20, the bandits would need a 20 minute lead on the PCs--which is possible, depending on the terrain and when the bandits detected the approaching PC.

I could definitely see the bandits Taking 20 on the Hide if they had higher ground and a lookout spotted the PC coming up the trail towards them.

On the other hand, it seems that Taking 10 would be more appropriate if the PCs just rounded the bend and the bandits jumped from their places into their hiding spots in the foliage.





On the PC's side of things, I wouldn't want to alert the players that anything was up, so I wouldn't give them a roll. I think what would be appropriate, reading this thread, is to use the PC's Passive Spot check, with a distraction. So, each PC would be, in effect Taking 10 on their Spot check with a -5 penalty.

So, it would be a case of the Bandit's lowest Hide score at Take 10 or Take 20, depending on the situation. The first PC that has a Passive spot of 10 + Spot - 5 which equals or beat the Bandit number, discovers the bandits.



If the PCs were not on a typical journey, and the players had indicated that they were being very cautious, I'd remove the distraction penalty.

[hymer]

On the PC's side of things, I wouldn't want to alert the players that anything was up, so I wouldn't give them a roll. I think what would be appropriate, reading this thread, is to use the PC's Passive Spot check, with a distraction. So, each PC would be, in effect Taking 10 on their Spot check with a -5 penalty.

The illegality of taking 20 on Hide aside:
As a player I could get pretty annoyed at the part I bolded. You don't decide for the players if they roll or take 10. The players get to choose what their characters do and how they go about it, unless there is some compelling reason for them not to. By taking all chance of rolling out, you're basically fiat'ing whether the party is surprised or not. If this is to the players' advantage it'd merely be strange. If it went against them, you're doing it wrong IMO: It's like deciding they head down a trapped corridor without them having any say in it.
I also don't understand why you're so worried about alerting the players. They're going to find out they're in a trap when they get attacked anyway. Here's how it could go:

DM: "[Description of their journey before the encounter]. Roll Spot."

The players do and call out their results. The bandits have reached DC X when Hiding, and they are going to start shooting when the nearest PC is (say) 30' away. If they beat the DC by two or less, or fail it, they're surprised, and the first thing they know is when the trap is sprung. If they beat it by three exactly (-1 per 10'), they're ambushed, but those who made it get to act in the surprise round. If they beat it by four or more, they are not surprised, having spotted the hidden bandits before they spring the trap (unless the ones spotting the bandits for some reason don't alert the party and just walk into the trap - in which case the rest of the party would be surprised). You could add -1 distance penalty on the PCs in the back of the group, or maybe -2 for a really large group.

So you tell them "A small hail of missiles suddenly erupt from the two bushes you are passing by, roll for initiative." if they are surprised, and point out who made it for any who get to act in the surprise round. Or if they beat the DC by four or more, you tell the one who rolled the highest "You notice a hidden man with a bow, clad in grey and green in the bushes you were about to pass by. You are Y feet away, what do you do?" Y would depend on how much s/he beat the DC by, of course. In this case, there will probably be no surprise round, but most of the bandits still haven't been noticed, so they still have an advantage.

You may also want to give them some sort of roll to notice the excellent ambush spot as they come down the trail. Survival, Spot or Hide (hide is a little weird, as it's modified by dex, but someone who has ranks in Hide could be expected to be better at recognizing a good ambush spot) or an Int or Wis check for instance. If they make the roll, the party is not considered distracted, as those who make it point it out to the others (unless your players are in the habit of not communicating these sorts of things to each other). They are heroes, after all, they shouldn't fall into every trap set for them.

[Water Bob]

The illegality of taking 20 on Hide aside:
As a player I could get pretty annoyed at the part I bolded. You don't decide for the players if they roll or take 10.

I think we just have a different view of the GM's role in the game. We play old school, where the GM is much more than a referee. His word is law. What he says, goes. And, the GM can absolutely determine whether a player rolls any check or not. The GM can even roll the check behind a screen, in secret, if he wants.

The GM isn't playing against the player. The GM is directing a good story to be had by all. Sometimes, the tools to tell that story reside in hidden, secret checks, or doing things like deciding whether the player should get to roll or not.

A good example is when a player wants his character to Hide and Move Silently. Sometimes, the player will roll his Hide and Move Silently check. Then, at other times, I don't want the player to know how well the check went. I'll do this to add more threat to the situation--the unknown can be quite fun. So, I'll roll it behind the screen.

As a default, I usually let players roll Move Silently checks because, from the dice roll, the character can usually tell how quiet he is being (whether he stepped on a twig that snapped or whatever). But, I will usually roll Hide checks in secret because characters really have no idea whether they've been spotted or not.

I'm a GM who likes to have the players roll as many throws as possible--simply because it takes that duty off my plate. But, there are instances where I think it better if the I roll behind a screen.

I use the Take 10 as a Passive Roll for things like Spot (and I see that D&D 5E has incorporated that officially into those rules). Unless I have some indication that I should give the character a throw (by what the players say that their characters are doing), I default to that Passive Spot to see if they notice things. I do the same in reverse. If the players want to sneak past a guard that has no real reason to be on alert, then their Hide roll is matched to the guard's Take 10 Spot (maybe with a -5 if the guard is distracted).

The players get to choose what their characters do and how they go about it, unless there is some compelling reason for them not to.

In this case, I was thinking that the players are traveling from town to town, and are approaching a spot where bandits prey on the road traffic. The party has no real reason to suspect anything. To them, it's just like the last few miles that they've traveled.

[HighWater]

This makes real-world sense, but I don't agree on the interpretation (and definitely not 'totally').
Since taking twenty takes twenty times as long, you need some specific time period to multiply. Hiding is either not an action or part of another action, with sniping as the obvious exception. Also, I see no rules reason why you should be allowed to keep an old Hide check for extended periods when the spotters are not even around. It's a very generous interpretation that you can take the bad part of 20 when there's no risk, and only take the good part when there is risk.
You can still get something like what you're aiming for by giving the bandits circumstance bonuses, which is clearly within the rules. Just be consistent about it, as the PCs should expect to be able to gain the same bonus as well.

I did not mean to imply that any Hide-20 taken would last forever: you can't stay hidden and hyper-alert forever, nor can you do it without preparation. This is what my "If"-sentence was supposed to refer to. "[IF] they have carefully set up this ambush and they know someone is coming" are preconditions for taking a 20 on Hide. You can't stay hidden perfectly forever, there are no hard rules on this, but I'd encourage DMs to use their brains/common sense and to give hidden would-be-ambushers penalties if they have to stay in their ambush spot for too long (perhaps because the PC's take longer than expected). A look-out or other advance warning, as well as terrain-familiarity, is definitely called for during "take 20" situations.

As you correctly point out, hiding isn't an action in the normal sense, which means that DM-judgement always comes in when applying the effects of making a concentrated effort at hiding. In such a case I like to bring in real-world common sense (which means more time spend on trying to hide allows for a better hide check, while also being careful not to screw over the mundanes with Guy-At-Gym fallacies). You can do effectively the same as "take 20" by doing "take 10" and then adding circumstance modifiers onto it, which can amount to the same number but that doesn't really illustrate the normal difference between Take10 and Take20. All of this is not very relevant though: the main point of my post was that a carefully set ambush is definitely not a Take-10 situation if that's all you're giving the ambushers. An impromptu ambush, with only a few turns to get into place in an unfamiliar environment is much more like a take-10 while a Hide-check in a new environment with only one turn to execute the hide seems like the time to roll for me (you may get lucky on your first instinct, or maybe you won't...) The OP's initial suggested values seemed simply too low.


As for letting players roll or not: I'm the kind of DM that will let them roll spot checks for uninteresting things that are hard to see, as well as producing information on low rolls, so you're not sure you're missing something vital. Alternatively, you can tell your party not to metagame if they suddenly start performing actions after you call for a (failed) spot check: you're perfectly in your right to veto actions undertaken when prompted by a passive check: the character doesn't know they failed their spot check, so they can't act on that failure either.

[Elkad]

Depends on the warning time.

No warning (bandits have a single action to hide before the PCs get round the corner). Roll. Someone is going to screw it up and get focus-fired by a bunch of murderhobos. It'll be hilarious. And then his friends will hopefully get revenge.

One round (or anything else after this). Bad guys take 10. They've had time to all actually get into concealment, but no more than a moment to adjust anything.

Given a single minute warning, I'd add an +2 assist bonus (checking your bandit buddies for sticking out feet and shiny bits)

Given 10 minutes, +4. They would have time to re-arrange concealment a bit, shift to a spot that isn't lying on an ant hill, etc

Given an hour, +8. Positions are well-improved, signals worked out, multiple checks of your position by others, you've found and moved the pointy rock you were lying on, etc.

A day, +12. You've had time to uproot and relocate bushes, dig hides, weave screens, etc.

After that, it doesn't get any better, and might actually get worse. You might add concealment to escape routes, or add hard cover to your position, but people get careless, you make trails, the plants you moved start wilting, etc.

I'd never let hiding take 20. Just keep piling on circumstance bonuses on a take 10.

[Water Bob]

Depends on the warning time.

No warning (bandits have a single action to hide before the PCs get round the corner). Roll. Someone is going to screw it up and get focus-fired by a bunch of murderhobos. It'll be hilarious. And then his friends will hopefully get revenge.

One round (or anything else below). Bad guys take 10. They've had time to all actually get into concealment, but no more than a moment to adjust anything.

Given a single minute warning, I'd add an +2 assist bonus (checking your bandit buddies for sticking out feet and shiny bits)

Given 10 minutes, +4. They would have time to re-arrange concealment a bit, shift to a spot that isn't lying on an ant hill, etc

Given an hour, +8. Positions are well-improved, signals worked out, multiple checks of your position by others, you've found and moved the pointy rock you were lying on, etc.

A day, +12. You've had time to uproot and relocate bushes, dig hides, weave screens, etc.

After that, it doesn't get any better, and might actually get worse. You might add concealment to escape routes, or add hard cover to your position, but people get careless, you make trails, the plants you moved start wilting, etc.

I'd never let hiding take 20. Just keep piling on circumstance bonuses on a take 10.

Good post. Thanks! There's lots of good stuff there to chew on.

[Water Bob]

As pure coincidence, I'm reading a 3.5 adventure (The Siege of Ebonring Keep, for Arcana Unearthed) where I saw this exact encounter. Weird how things like this happen. Now, I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, but what they suggest is:

80 feet out, the PCs get a Spot check at DC 25. For every +2 over the DC, add 10 feet to distance. So, a roll of 28 means that they spot the ambush 90 feet away.

Failing that, they get to try again at 40 feet, this time the PC roll is opposed by the bandit's Hide throw. The bandits have constructed blinds on the sides of the road to hide their ambush, so the bandit's get a +5 circumstance bonus.

If the PCs fail that, then they will be totally surprised.





Now, the question here is: Who should roll the spot check for the PCs? The leader of the group? The character leading the party? The highest Spot among the group? Take 10 with the highest among the group? The highest of the group but then add +2 for everyone else in the group (using the Aid Another rule)?

How do you get away with fairly rolling once for the entire group?