Protection from Wish Teleportation

[Phelix-Mu]

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.

[ryu]

I thought eggynack's defintions above were pretty clear actually.



So do you not occupy a point in space? Or are you one with the entire universe? Is there a point where "you" ends and "not you" begins?

I don't have to occupy a point in space. For one I could literally just hop over to that crazy outside the universe dealy where the aberrations live. Oh or the areas between planes.

Hell given time I'm pretty sure we could work out a way to merge with the universe into a sentient existence with all the frightening control that implies.

I don't think you fully understand the amount of abstracts I'm willing to work with.

[Psyren]

Your stance is clear too - I just happen to agree more with his. As with all rules that are poorly defined it's going to come down to individual DMs (read: individuals) to determine what they consider to be right.

To be clear though, I never said you were a condition. "Spellblade" is a condition, and it is a condition that only has meaning if it is associated with you, which to me means it is local because you are a point in space (whether or not you are a mobile point or capable of changing is not relevant in this case.)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, whatever.

About the spellblade "condition," does the game recognize conditions outside the specified ones? I think it's considered an effect, like a spell, instead.

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

That's a good point. I don't know how to argue it otherwise.

Um... How about the Su type applies after whether or not it needs SR?

[Psyren]

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.

Basically that line is just repeating the regular SR rule much like Telekinesis and Veil do. It is not actually stating anything new.

Alternatively, you can read it this way: it says "SR applies" - i.e. SR would apply to Su Wish just like it would to any other supernatural ability, which is to say not at all.

[Snowbluff]

The spell resistance part should be "see text." :l

[Phelix-Mu]

"Condition" sounds like a term so poorly defined by the rules and of such general use in common parlance that nailing down anything specific is going to be problematic.

And "local" is even worse. What exactly is the range of local? Same plane? What about Athas over there? This might not work on the other planet on this version of the Prime.

To my ear, I'd probably go with "condition" being a quality of a thing that is, rather than a thing. The condition of the car isn't the car itself, or a full list of its parts, or "fuzzy dice" if those happen to be hanging from the mirror.

"Local" sounds like nearby, but it doesn't exclude vast areas that also include the local area. The "local" area is North America. That's not untrue.

So condition is more of a problem to the spellblade. I don't think the spellblade itself is a condition. Does the "effect" of the spellblade confer upon the wielder a special condition? Hmm. Yeah, sounds like it does. Except that is impossible to prove by RAW, since even "effect" is not well-defined in the context of the game.

[Snowbluff]

All spells are considered effects. IHS works on them. That's the best I got.

[137beth]

All spells are considered effects. IHS works on them. That's the best I got.

But IHS calls out spells, conditions, and effects as if they are three separate things.

[Slithery D]

There's a Pathfinder product that implicitly assumes Wish/Miracle bypasses Dimensional Lock and similar effects.

In the Adventure Path Wrath of the Righteous 5: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, there's a confrontation with the demon lord Baphomet. His tactics include a note that he'll use his 1/day Miracle to escape (to a location on the same plane) if reduced below a certain number of HP.

Since he would ordinarily be able to Teleport Without Error at will to the same location, the logical inference is that he uses this as a last resort to bypass any teleport denial used by the PCs or that his sanctum he retreats to has such teleport denial effects as part of its defenses.

Not 3rd Edition and not definitive just because an adventure path author put it in there, but suggestive.

[Snowbluff]

But IHS calls out spells, conditions, and effects as if they are three separate things.

A spell is a one-time magical effect.

<- Expert on IHS. ToB's lousy editing isn't errata to this fact.

[Telok]

Since it allows a Will save you can use the ToB maneuver to replace your save with a Concentration check. Those are easier to kick sky high and don't fail on ones.

Of course than you're back to the "Who has more ice assassins" thing.

[Darkweave31]

Would there, perhaps, be a way to counterspell the wish? I'm thinking it would be possible because it has unlimited range for that function and thus could be used to counterspell at an unlimited range too.

[Snowbluff]

Would there, perhaps, be a way to counterspell the wish? I'm thinking it would be possible because it has unlimited range for that function and thus could be used to counterspell at an unlimited range too.

My days as an abjurer are coming back to me... IIRC, counterspelling has no stipulations on range, you just do it. However, I think you need to know it's happening first.

[Darkweave31]

Any way to get battlemagic perception to function at unlimited range? Or perhaps divine defiance?


If you have something like arcane sight or detect magic you could make a spellcraft check to identify the wish without needing to see it being cast.

[Jack_Simth]

How does a high level wizard protect themselves from being Wish'd from their private demiplane into, for example, an antimagic field? I started thinking contingencies, but those shouldn't function inside an AMF. I know that Wish used to transport someone grants a will save, but can't caster level be raised arbitrarily high?

Any ideas?

1) Boost your will save into the stratosphere. And get Moment of Prescience as well.
2) Pick up the feat Martial Stance (and it's prerequisites) from Tome of Battle. Pick Aura of Perfect Order.
3) Get the Pride Domain power (there's a feat for it in... was it Manual of the Planes or The Planar Handbook? ... Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment))
4) Get a pile of luckblades of 0 wishes (for the 1/day reroll) (doesn't stack with Pride Domain).
4) Get a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind for Moment of Perfect Mind (replace a Will save with a Concentration check - which does NOT fail on a nat-1 - 1/encounter)
5) Get yourself constantly under Foresight (so you can take the immediate action)


The first Wish per round, you roll an 11 automatically via Aura of Perfect Order. Possibly toss Moment of Prescience on there as well.
For the rest, the Pride Domain power lets you reroll 1's.

So as long as your Will save optimization is better than the attacker's save DC optimization (which is usually easy):
At 1/round, you win.
At 2/round, it'll take (on average) 400 rounds to move you (and 800 Wishes).
At 3/round, it'll take (on average) 200 rounds to move you (and 600 Wishes).
At X/round, it'll take (on average) 400/(X-1) rounds to move you (and X*(400/(X-1)) Wishes).

Yes, you can still be got. It just takes a very large amount of cheddar. By the time you're doing that sort of Wish farming, you've got other ways to deal (like, say, pet Simulacrum Solars doing their own periodic Transport Traveler's Wish to retrieve you).

[Snowbluff]

3) Wizards have an option to get domain powers without a feat. :3

[Rubik]

You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

[Snowbluff]

You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

I am legion, for we are many!

[Doc_Maynot]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?

Only one of the originals would.

THey cast in pairs, too. So if someone were to try to wish you over, they would get effectively 10 wizards wondering why this other one wizard is being a pain.

[Rubik]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?

Snowbluff's reasoning aside, by the time you're dealing with Wishes, self-resurrection (not Resurrection) is easy, especially when you can cast it on yourself.

And that's assuming the other party can actually kill you. Killing a proper high level wizard isn't at all easy, even for another wizard.

[TypoNinja]

There's a Pathfinder product that implicitly assumes Wish/Miracle bypasses Dimensional Lock and similar effects.

In the Adventure Path Wrath of the Righteous 5: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, there's a confrontation with the demon lord Baphomet. His tactics include a note that he'll use his 1/day Miracle to escape (to a location on the same plane) if reduced below a certain number of HP.

Since he would ordinarily be able to Teleport Without Error at will to the same location, the logical inference is that he uses this as a last resort to bypass any teleport denial used by the PCs or that his sanctum he retreats to has such teleport denial effects as part of its defenses.

Not 3rd Edition and not definitive just because an adventure path author put it in there, but suggestive.

Couple of problems with drawing conclusions from that adventure path.

Miracle and Wish are not equivalent when using it for strange effects. Miracle is literally asking your God for a favor, so if your deity is in a good mood or particularly fond of you he might just grant you something really off the wall. Where as Wish is actually allowed to not be completely successful when not wishing for one of the "safe" effects.

Demon Lords are actual Deities in Pathfinder.

Deities casting their own Miracle spell sets up all kinds of interesting questions that probably don't have a good answer.

[malonkey1]

Contingent Greater Teleport back to the user's previous position, triggered by involuntary teleportation? It's got limitations that a wish doesn't, sure, but it won't be trumped by (Su) wish as easily.

[Psyren]

So as long as your Will save optimization is better than the attacker's save DC optimization (which is usually easy):

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?

You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

Depends on why they want you - a Mindrape on just one of your bodies will only control that one, but they'll still learn everything you know.

[Rubik]

Depends on why they want you - a Mindrape on just one of your bodies will only control that one, but they'll still learn everything you know.

Note that this is only one option that can be used in tandem with dozens of others, and it has all sorts of side-benefits, as well.

[Jack_Simth]

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?

Depends on how much optimization is in the game, and how you rate different forms of it. Save DC is 10 + Spell Level + Casting Stat + [a very few number of methods to get numbers up]. Save (for a straight Wizard-20) is 12+Wisdom+[several different items that grant bonuses]+[several different spells that grant bonuses]+[a few other methods to get the numbers up]

So while yes, there's a couple of close-to-uncapped methods for increasing your save DC, there's a large number of stacking small bonuses available to saves (and a few close-to-uncapped methods for increasing your will save, specifically).

[Snowbluff]

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?

You can get nigh infinite for either. Barghests are a thing. Combine with that cloning trick and you can have saves as high as you want.

[Psyren]

You can get nigh infinite for either. Barghests are a thing. Combine with that cloning trick and you can have saves as high as you want.

Even if you're able to do that faster than a taint user is able to profane himself in various ways, you can still roll a natural one. Moment of Perfect Mind will save you then, but only once per round, and you have to use it before you know if you've rolled the one or not.

[Snowbluff]

Even if you're able to do that faster than a taint user is able to profane himself in various ways, you can still roll a natural one. Moment of Perfect Mind will save you then, but only once per round, and you have to use it before you know if you've rolled the one or not.

Wizards who have the Pride Domain say what? Domain Granted Power is an ACF for them.

I'm sure there's a way to get a bunch of shapechanged oozed cohorts to get split up then dropped via consumptive field. It's all about the execution. Maybe attack them with cloud of knives?