Miko was Accidentally Right about Vaarsuvius!!

[Nerd-o-rama]

He was dealing with heavily-armed home invaders who, as I recall, had already killed several of his neighbors. Negotiation?

(Not saying he wasn't evil. Just saying that the lack of attempts at negotiation is not good evidence on the subject.)

I'm not going off of alignment so much as dragon clichés there. Metallic True Dragons are almost always predisposed to talk the ears off of anyone who wanders into their lair in one fashion or another. Then again, a non-Evil Black Dragon presupposes that assumptions about dragon behavior have been thrown out the window anyway, so let's just go with "Good Dragons tend to be the inspiration for either Paladins or the most harmless types of annoying bards", or "Nerdo didn't think through the hypothetical very well".

Oh, and officially (in the Monster Manual), the youngest dragons are known as Wyrmlings. I tend to refer to dragons too recently-hatched to even have stats as "hatchlings".

[Vladier]

Oh, and officially (in the Monster Manual), the youngest dragons are known as Wyrmlings. I tend to refer to dragons too recently-hatched to even have stats as "hatchlings".

I'm pretty sure that in D&D the stage of "right after egg" for dragons is called "hatchling". And they have their breath attack already. And stats. Even their eggs have stats. The question of Black-Green hybrids is still open, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Miko wouldn't cast Familicide. Firstly, it's a Necromancy spell. Secondly, she still has a code of conduct to follow and it states that you can't kill an opponent dishonorably, and killing someone through blood relation at a very safe distance most likely counts.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Ancient Black Dragon was evil, black non-shiny scales nonwithstanding. It takes special kind of Evil to plan soultrapping innocent children (not even biologically related to the person you want to psychologically torture) forever for such a long time and then go with it. It can't even be excused with her being furious right after her son's death because she had very much time to calculate her revenge in cold blood, the excuse Vaarsuvirus hirself had (which still doesn't excuse hir, mind, for V has done so just to prove hir arcane might rather than as an act of actual preventive revenge, if there even is such a thing). And I guess her son would be Evil as well, unless his mother went with Laurin's "keep him away from those things I do and give him a good life to live with that Green dragon girl and a plumber job".

[evileeyore]

Someone Miko once accused of being Evil eventually performed an Evil action.

In the words of a different webcomic author, "I'm picturing a dartboard filled with an infinite number of darts."

"Broke clock, twice a day" comes to my mind.


Even if Miko was more like a 24 hour clock...

Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes.

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!

WOOT WOOT!

[warrl]

Ive heard Whelp, Drake, Dragonling, Hatchling and Spawn.

A hatchling would presumably be an extremely-young dragon. One that hatched rather recently.

I recently came across something that said a Drake is four-limbed (two legs, two wings) while a Dragon is six-limbed (four legs, two wings). They aren't even particularly closely related species. Of course, since we're dealing with fantasy fiction either way, that distinction doesn't necessarily apply in any given universe.

[Yendor]

Yea this was my take too. If Miko were powerful enough to cast Familicide without negotiating with the IFCC, I think she would have done so without a second thought. Then she would have been confused as to why she immediately fell.

Miko would have fallen for even researching the spell. If that wasn't an evil act in itself, even considering casting it indicates a non-Good alignment. But since paladins don't get ninth-level spells she couldn't research epic spells without long ago leaving the paladin class behind, so it's a moot point.

[Keltest]

A hatchling would presumably be an extremely-young dragon. One that hatched rather recently.

I recently came across something that said a Drake is four-limbed (two legs, two wings) while a Dragon is six-limbed (four legs, two wings). They aren't even particularly closely related species. Of course, since we're dealing with fantasy fiction either way, that distinction doesn't necessarily apply in any given universe.

Ive been told that 2 legs + 2 wings = wyvern, whether or not there is a poison stinger. So Skyrim dragons are actually wyverns. Apparently the original Drake myths were only tangentially related to actual dragons.

[multilis]

Yea this was my take too. If Miko were powerful enough to cast Familicide without negotiating with the IFCC, I think she would have done so without a second thought. Then she would have been confused as to why she immediately fell.

Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

[theNater]

So, fast-forward about 3 months, substitute the word "vengeance" for "treasure" in the above speech, and Miko has predicted Vaarsuvius' error to a T.

You also have to replace "Good" with "Neutrality" and "weak" with "world on which they live".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. So, we've got whelp, drake, dragonling, hatchling, spawn, and wyrmling. I never heard that bit about wyverns/drakes vs. dragons before.

Edit: Plus dragonetts and dragonettes.

[tomandtish]

Well, to keep us on this subject, what is a baby/young dragon called? Baby dogs are puppies, baby cats are kittens, baby dragons are...?

"Easier XP"?

On a serious note, I've heard dragonetts and dragonettes before. (Both spellings).

[Darth Paul]

It's ridiculous to spoiler things that happened 5 years ago.

Now that I have discovered that I can edit the title of the thread, I removed the spoiler reference. And I retroactively agree. See my comments above for my original reasons for mentioning spoilers in the first place. Apologies to one and all, especially anyone who might be confused by the references in the thread. I will add an edit to the original post.

[Bulldog Psion]

I always thought it was "dragonet" myself.

[factotum]

Secondly, she still has a code of conduct to follow and it states that you can't kill an opponent dishonorably, and killing someone through blood relation at a very safe distance most likely counts.

So she'd never do anything like kill an unarmed octogenarian, you mean? OH WAIT.

[Angelalex242]

He was an unarmed Octogenarian who had betrayed Azure City to the goblins! Of course he deserved to be smited with extreme prejudice!

...What do you mean not everyone agrees with my analysis?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

Oh hey, I was wondering when the strawmen were going to show up. What does this even have to do with the post you quoted?

[Vladier]

So she'd never do anything like kill an unarmed octogenarian, you mean? OH WAIT.

That octogenarian in her mind betrayed her beloved city and was actively conspiring for it to be destroyed. And she also did make a token affort of thinking about bringing him to justice properly, but she also believed that Shojo had the courts in his pocket (and not without a reason - he did fool the proper judicial process once) and was too dangerous to be left alive. And she didn't use dishonorable means to kill him, using her katana after declaring her intentions. I still stand by my reasoning that she wouldn't use Familicide if she had the ability - it's an Epic Necromantic spell and kills without warning.

[factotum]

That octogenarian in her mind betrayed her beloved city and was actively conspiring for it to be destroyed. And she also did make a token affort of thinking about bringing him to justice

No, she really didn't--Hinjo raised the possibility of bringing him to justice, and Miko shot him down immediately. And the rest of your post is basically saying "She has a code of conduct she will always follow, except when she believes she's justified in not doing so", which still doesn't rule out her using Familicide. If someone told her she'd kill a quarter of all black dragons, but would Fall for doing so? I reckon she'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Vladier]

No, she really didn't--Hinjo raised the possibility of bringing him to justice, and Miko shot him down immediately. And the rest of your post is basically saying "She has a code of conduct she will always follow, except when she believes she's justified in not doing so", which still doesn't rule out her using Familicide. If someone told her she'd kill a quarter of all black dragons, but would Fall for doing so? I reckon she'd do it in a heartbeat.

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.

And again, Miko shooting Hinjo's proposal down immidiately is "a token affort" in regards to thinking about bringing Shojo to justice properly. She did have a reason for killing him then and there without the courts involved, even if that reason was in her head only.

Really, what's with so many people demonizing Miko? She's been a paladin for years, and her only fall was because of incomplete information and a feeling of personal betrayal. She didn't turn Chaotic Evil all of a sudden, there is really no reason to believe that she even changed her alignment at all in any direction. She only lost her paladinhood and she still tried to act in the interests of her gods and her city. And really, none of her actions after were malicious, just really ill-timed.

[Keltest]

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.

And again, Miko shooting Hinjo's proposal down immidiately is "a token affort" in regards to thinking about bringing Shojo to justice properly. She did have a reason for killing him then and there without the courts involved, even if that reason was in her head only.

Really, what's with so many people demonizing Miko? She's been a paladin for years, and her only fall was because of incomplete information and a feeling of personal betrayal. She didn't turn Chaotic Evil all of a sudden, there is really no reason to believe that she even changed her alignment at all in any direction. She only lost her paladinhood and she still tried to act in the interests of her gods and her city. And really, none of her actions after were malicious, just really ill-timed.

Im not sure YOU understand Miko. In her mind, she was the exemplar paladin. Period. She had a very much "I am good, therefore anything I do is good." mentality. If presented with familicide, she would not go "Twelve Gods that is terrible! A weapon that can kill thousands of innocents!" She would go "Twelve Gods, this is wonderful! A weapon that can wipe out massive chunks of enemy populations! Thank you Twelve Gods for delivering unto me this weapon, you clearly desire for me to use it." And then she would use it, fall and be horribly confused.

[Kish]

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.

More than that, Rich said that she would not kill a kobold for being a kobold, and that her "Then its destruction was just and necessary" line was only meant to indicate she was prepared to let Roy slide for killing a chromatic dragon, not that she would have attacked without first using Detect Evil had she been the one to encounter a black dragon.*

*No, I can't prove it. It was years and years ago, shortly after Miko said the line in question, when someone whose avatar-comment...back when we had those...was "Miko Miyazaki doesn't care about green people!" said that Miko would slaughter kobolds out of hand.

[Angelalex242]

Considering #251, are we sure Miko Miyazaki cares about ANY people, regardless of color? As Roy points out, when has she ever shown concern for the dignity and well being of sentient beings? She'd a beat stick infused with holy power, but completely forgot every other part of what being good meant. Still, she was such a good holy beat stick that the 12 gods let it slide till the line got crossed.

[Vladier]

Im not sure YOU understand Miko. In her mind, she was the exemplar paladin. Period. She had a very much "I am good, therefore anything I do is good." mentality. If presented with familicide, she would not go "Twelve Gods that is terrible! A weapon that can kill thousands of innocents!" She would go "Twelve Gods, this is wonderful! A weapon that can wipe out massive chunks of enemy populations! Thank you Twelve Gods for delivering unto me this weapon, you clearly desire for me to use it." And then she would use it, fall and be horribly confused.

And that's how she's been a paladin of the Twewe Gods for all these years - caring only for her own Goodness and Lawfulness. Surely, the Twelwe Gods would really appreciate her for being such a person and grant her more and more holy powers.

You know, I'm really tired of this view of Miko. She wasn't Evil. She was Lawful Good, that's a requirement for being a paladin in the first place. And she did show concern for other people (like saving the dirt farmers, people in the burning inn and reprimanding the Order of the Stick for causing so much damage to the livelyhood of the innkeeper - she was a jerk in the last case, but she did have a point, even if she didn't really know that). She also, being a former monk and a paladin, probably had at least decent Wisdom. And I repeat, that no, she wouldn't happily jump to an occasion of using an Epic Necromancy (and probably has Vile as a descriptor) spell that kills entities you don't even know and can't use Detect Evil on, jist like she would never willingly become a Black Guard (the powers of which she, too, could use only to slay evil beings, thus always being in the right). She didn't even try to kill Belkar before she's got confirmation of his evilness.

Indeed, her "I can't be wrong, and this beige outfit and lack of my powers is merely a test by the Twelwe Gods" bit came to be only after her liege and basically a father figure turned out to be a traitor to the city and a conspirator with an evil lich and foul Order of the Stick, which was true in her mind. She clearly was in denial over this, as the cituation required either her believing that she is right, that Shojo and the Order are Evil and conspire to destroy the Azure City and put the whole world into danger, that the Twelwe Gods merely test her resolve, or that she was wrong and the person who gave her the life of a paladin of the Sapphire Guard and was basically an adoptive father to her now lies dead and was slain by her hand because of a misunderstanding. It's not hard to see why she chose to lie to herself (and frankly, that rock that freed her from her prison would only strenghten her delusions or those of anyone, really, in her place).

Miko was certainly not a perfect paladin, but paladin nonetheless, even if she was supposed to represent "how to never roleplay a paladin in a game ever" and had to be kept as far away from people as possible because of her severely lacking social skills. Also, Roy's rudeness to her, first as a mere love interest and then, right after she agreed that maybe they could one day try to make something out of it, rudeness to her as a crazy-ex-not-really, didn't help the image of the Order in her head.

[evileeyore]

I'm with Vladier on this one.

[137beth]

Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes.

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!

I'm not sure combining all those topics into one thread is Morally Justified...

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods.

You're missing a step. If you tell Miko she would fall for doing something, that wouldn't mean she would believe you until it happened (at which point it would be 'obvious' to her that you were part of a conspiracy to force her to fall). She wouldn't do anything if she actually knew, and believed, that it would result in her fall, but whether she believes she would fall for an obvious falling-offense is anyone's guess (aside from the one time where she did fall, for something that should obviously cause her to fall, but didn't expect it because she was insane.)

[Angelalex242]

To add to the point, it is worth remembering, back in 406, Hinjo was doing his level best to convince Miko to mellow out and take a more gentle approach. He even tried to distract her (justifiably) with the bigass goblin invasion that was obviously evil and needed smiting.

He was all but pleading and begging her not to go flying off the handle. Even Belkar, not exactly a paragon of goodness, just before she fell was saying '...she wouldn't...' Hinjo was saying 'you're scaring me'...

If everyone in the room, good and evil both, is horrified at the idea of you doing something...you've gotta be pretty far down the ladder of madness to ignore them all and do it anyway.

[Amphiox]

Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

A paladin call fall and still remain Lawful Good, and get into the lawful good afterlife. If Miko had done those things Roy did, it is possible she might have fallen, but still get the good afterlife. The ethical bar for paladin hood is a notch higher than standard lawful good. They aren't just required to be lawful good, after all. They are supposed to be EXEMPLARS of lawfulness and goodness.

If Roy had been a paladin, he might have fallen for doing those things.

But, see, Roy was not a paladin.

[Keltest]

A paladin call fall and still remain Lawful Good, and get into the lawful good afterlife. If Miko had done those things Roy did, it is possible she might have fallen, but still get the good afterlife. The ethical bar for paladin hood is a notch higher than standard lawful good. They aren't just required to be lawful good, after all. They are supposed to be EXEMPLARS of lawfulness and goodness.

If Roy had been a paladin, he might have fallen for doing those things.

But, see, Roy was not a paladin.

He could have been though, which leads to an interesting "what-if" scenario. Based on his motivations for being a fighter, I imagine that only his distance with the gods kept him from striving for paladin hood.

[Angelalex242]

That always struck me...Roy would actually be a better Paladin then Miko ever was. I suppose the real reason he can't take a Paladin level is that so long as he remains Belkar's jailer, 'association with evil' would be problematic.

[Keltest]

That always struck me...Roy would actually be a better Paladin then Miko ever was. I suppose the real reason he can't take a Paladin level is that so long as he remains Belkar's jailer, 'association with evil' would be problematic.

Define "Better." While Miko certainly lost it at the end, Roy pushed the envelope of his alignment as much as Miko, only on the law/chaos axis, as noted in his review. While paladins are the champions of good, Both facets of alignment matter, and a paladin who steals from a local lord because the peasants need some food isn't much of a paladin at all, even if their heart is in the right place (unless the lord is deliberately hoarding all the food, in which case calling it theft is debatable)

[Angelalex242]

By Better, I mean as dictated by #490, Roy is trying. He's trying very hard to be Lawful Good. He doesn't always succeed, it's true...but chaotic actions do not make one fall. Not unless they're so consistent they take you out of Lawful totally.

So long as Roy earns rest on Mt. Celestia and does no evil, he'd be a better Paladin then Miko ever was.

Notwithstanding the problematic association with Belkar.