How to be Lawful, Rational, and still Evil

[ChaosArchon]

So I've been playing my first Evil character and it's going well but the thing is, I don't feel like he's done anything evil beyond be a paladin of Hextor. He keeps his word, avoids bloodshed if it's not called for and he would benefit more from making this person an ally rather than just killing them because they're good or neutral.

My question is how can I be more Evil without just feeling like he did it for the evulz or being a card carrying villain?

[The Oni]

So I've been playing my first Evil character and it's going well but the thing is, I don't feel like he's done anything evil beyond be a paladin of Hextor. He keeps his word, avoids bloodshed if it's not called for and he would benefit more from making this person an ally rather than just killing them because they're good or neutral.

My question is how can I be more Evil without just feeling like he did it for the evulz or being a card carrying villain?

Hextor's philosophy is more or less Might Makes Right. So, when he's got the advantage, have him take advantage. Did you get a reward for saving the village from vicious bugbears? Maybe that reward ought to be a little fatter, or else maybe the bugbears come back, do a little more ransacking, you dig? Or maybe you can't spare the resources to save your village at all but you totally could if you erected a nice shiny new shrine to Hextor and made it the official village religion. "Sorry, my merciful lord can't hear you yet, pray louder."

[Cowardly Griffo]

Paladin of Tyranny, I take it? Think about that word for a minute: Tyranny.

You're here to exert your influence over others, to create a dominion under your control. You're here to create order, suppress freedom and seize power. You're here to do it cleanly, perhaps, but you're still here to do it.

So do what a tyrant does: make them fear you. Not because it's fun, or because it's Evil, but because it's efficient. A fearful commoner is ten times more productive than a bored one. Make them afraid of what you could do to them–but by showing them your strength, make them completely, utterly dependent on you.

Don't go out of your way to kill, or do so at the drop of a hat–but if killing is the most efficient way to accomplish your goal, and you don't see any immediate future benefit for keeping someone alive, then don't hold back. Giving into mindless slaughter is one form of weakness. Holding back from bloodshed when it would further your cause is another, arguably worse form of weakness. If you have someone at your mercy, it's because you were fighting them–and more importantly, because they were fighting you. And if you don't do something about that, they might do so again. You should only show them mercy if, for whatever reason, they're more valuable alive.

Now combine these two ideas. Do you know what's more effective than killing the ogre that's been besieging the village? Dragging it into the village in chains and killing it in front of the villagers. Preferably alongside someone in the village who helped bring about the siege in the first place, however far you have to stretch the link. Make the pair a public execution, and make sure that they are treated exactly the same: quick, merciless, brutal execution. Pick your method carefully, and make sure that the pronouncing of sentence and the deaths themselves will stick in the minds of the witnesses.

Make the message very clear: This is what happens when someone threatens people who belong to me. So long as I have good reason to consider you mine, you are safe.

And more subtly: The show's over. You should all be getting back to your labors–and after that last fiasco, you should be going to extra lengths to convince me of your loyalty.

Smeagle's right, erecting a shrine is a good place to start. Make it clear that you own the people beneath you, body and soul. But also make sure it's an active thing, not a reactive thing. Solving problems is for the chaotic; preventing problems is for the lawful.

[Ravens_cry]

Some of the worst evils in the world have been committed by people rationally following a premise to its logical conclusion. Since premises themselves are not logical, you just need to find a premise that would result, if followed to its conclusion, in evil as well as lawful behaviour. For example, say you were a mundane doctor seeking a cure for a disease. If you made finding that cure your most primary goal, above all else, well, that could result in some very evil, logical, behaviour.

[Lord Raziere]

Some of the worst evils in the world have been committed by people rationally following a premise to its logical conclusion. Since premises themselves are not logical, you just need to find a premise that would result, if followed to its conclusion, in evil as well as lawful behaviour. For example, say you were a mundane doctor seeking a cure for a disease. If you made finding that cure your most primary goal, above all else, well, that could result in some very evil, logical, behaviour.

To extrapolate:
Step 1: Find someone who is infected with disease.
Step 2: try to study disease.
Step 3: try to find more people to see how disease affects them
Step 4: write down observations about disease, find commonalities
Step 5: try to figure out how disease spreads
Step 6: infect people to study how disease spreads
Step 7: write down results for how to prevent disease from spreading
Step 8: need to look at internal effects of disease upon the body
Step 9: let someone die/kill them to study disease up close
Step 10: look at dead body. write down observations
Step 11: look at other dead bodies, write down commonalities
Step 12: begin experimenting with various cures that might work
Step 13: study dead people to see why cures did not work
Step 14: come up with more cures, feed them cures until dead or cured.
Step 15: no cures are working. only fire prevents disease from spreading
Step 16: must save everyone else.
Step 17: burn the patients. burn them all.
Step 18: OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I BECOME!?

ok, that may not actually be what would happen REALLY, but its where my imagination took me....

[hifidelity2]

I played a LE character – a Magic User / Thief. He is now a major NPC so runs the local town.

He has a public face – the benevolent MU who helps out (and has employed the party) and the head of the thieves guild who runs the guild with the rod of iron.

The 1st time they stole something he had them beaten up. The second time they did it (without paying the local “tax”) he had a NPC friend of theirs killed and the head left in their room – along with the bill for the hit.

They now if they are in the area always make contact and pay the required 20% Tax

[Segev]

So I've been playing my first Evil character and it's going well but the thing is, I don't feel like he's done anything evil beyond be a paladin of Hextor. He keeps his word, avoids bloodshed if it's not called for and he would benefit more from making this person an ally rather than just killing them because they're good or neutral.

My question is how can I be more Evil without just feeling like he did it for the evulz or being a card carrying villain?

Ruthlessness.

Is what you're doing working for your character and his goals? Is he gaining the following - the obedience - necessary to achieve dominance and spread the order he brings?

If yes, then there's no reason to engage in needless "evil." That's wasteful.

If he is loved, don't squander that just for the evuls. But make sure he is respected and feared. Not feared over all else, but...make sure anybody who loves him now but might come to have reason to disobey in the future will, when they have reason to disobey, remember what your character has done not just for them...but to their enemies. Make sure they have a subconscious reason to question whether they want to risk moving from "under your protection" to "one of your enemies."

When you help, take the time not just to accept a reward, but to work with people you've helped to set things up to prevent future problems. Do not shy away from draconian measures to enforce the new rules set up; be as firm as necessary, but don't shy away from gentle explanation where it works. Make sure they know it's for their own good and why it's necessary...and why the harsh punishments for disobedience are also necessary.

Be lenient the first time an otherwise-loyal person messes up a rule. Publicly scold them, make them spell out everything that could have gone wrong, and (if you're capable) convince them in their public confession to ASK to at least endure a symbolic punishment. Even better if you can convince this person that the best way they can atone for their mistake is to take the real punishment, and do so proudly to demonstrate that these rules are for the best for everybody.

In that same vain, do NOT have needlessly harsh punishments. Harsh, yes, but nothing that will deny you a loyal and useful servant. Have increasing severities for repeat offenses or for willfully hiding or exacerbating problems. Confession absolutely SHOULD get mitigation of the sentence, precisely because it lets the offender atone for his wrongdoing and ensure that the lesson is learned. The dead have not learned a lesson. Save death for those who refuse to learn.

[Gravitron5000]

In that same vain, do NOT have needlessly harsh punishments. Harsh, yes, but nothing that will deny you a loyal and useful servant. Have increasing severities for repeat offenses or for willfully hiding or exacerbating problems. Confession absolutely SHOULD get mitigation of the sentence, precisely because it lets the offender atone for his wrongdoing and ensure that the lesson is learned. The dead have not learned a lesson. Save death for those who refuse to learn.

Is it your goal to teach lessons, or do you have better things to do with your time? You need to weigh the cost of your minion's accomplishments against their failures. If they put you further away from your goals then towards them, then why (as an evil entity) would you allow their nincompooperery to keep existing? Are you trying to take over the world or run a daycare?

[elliott20]

you have to remember that at the end of the day, Evil is not necessarily about characteristics, but about goals and intent. Good will value the group and the character of how things are done over their own goals. Evil is ALL about their own desires and goals, be they justified or not.

The lawful part merely indicates how they prefer to go about doing their business. Sure, it might mean they are great manipulating the law or that they might be a noble demon or whatever, but the key is that their actions are always about satisfying their agendas / desires / needs. It's never about other people.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I would suggest you have your character adopt a system of rigorous axiomatic thinking in order to make sense of the world around him. A few other people have already touched on this idea, essentially, but what I mean is that you ought to develop a black and white morality system for your character, and work diligently to impose that moral code onto the world around you. There are no caveats for dismissal from the proper code of behavior, if someone breaks the rules, they're worthy of punishment, whatever the appropriate punishment is.

Just think of a few principles of behavior your character believes should always be adhered to. Loyalty looks like a big deal for your character, so I suggest if you discover anyone has ever betrayed someone else's trust, that person is worthy of execution. You yourself (and other servants of your God) are immune to such a judgements because upholding the code of ethics sometimes requires extreme behavior.

A great example of this type of villainy is Kira from Death Note. Unfortunately, I can't really think of any other examples (that does not violate forum rules).

[ChaosArchon]

Fair enough, right now the only beings I've really been dealing with have been the type that would just chuckle if I made a threat against them but once I start dealing with commoners I'll be sure to remind people why it's called a paladin of Tyranny

[Thrudd]

Fair enough, right now the only beings I've really been dealing with have been the type that would just chuckle if I made a threat against them but once I start dealing with commoners I'll be sure to remind people why it's called a paladin of Tyranny

What are your characters' goals and desires? Evil means doing whatever it takes to get what you want. You will do anything short of breaking your deity's commandments and tarnishing your personal honor. Show no mercy when you fight. Don't be afraid to use your allies as pawns whenever you have the chance. Intimidation and torture are good ways to get information from somebody who is not immediately forthcoming. Killing people that blatantly defy you or your god are good ideas, too. Think Darth Vader. Ready to choke anybody who dares question him or the Force. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Servants of the enemies of Hextor die especially gruesome deaths.

[ChaosArchon]

Well my character is the nephew of the king and is planning to usurp him because he views him as a weak leader given that a group of super-powerful adventurers rules the continent, the king really just being a puppet. He also is part of a splinter cell of a paladin of order guild and he's working on corrupting it and making them all fall to the dark side convert to Hextor.

So yeah he's polite, pragmatic, and always looking for more allies to help him in his goals. So far he hasn't done anything evil because of those things, as well as the fact that my party is currently about to siege a castle and claim it as our own but needed to gain the support of the nearby town and the forest (which houses a god-like tree named Professor Oak), so he's had to play nice so far.

[Thrudd]

Well my character is the nephew of the king and is planning to usurp him because he views him as a weak leader given that a group of super-powerful adventurers rules the continent, the king really just being a puppet. He also is part of a splinter cell of a paladin of order guild and he's working on corrupting it and making them all fall to the dark side convert to Hextor.

So yeah he's polite, pragmatic, and always looking for more allies to help him in his goals. So far he hasn't done anything evil because of those things, as well as the fact that my party is currently about to siege a castle and claim it as our own but needed to gain the support of the nearby town and the forest (which houses a god-like tree named Professor Oak), so he's had to play nice so far.

Great. So the second he no longer needs to play nice, he can start choking out suckas Vader style.
Once he's got some power, the thin veneer of politeness disappears when he is angered or disobeyed. If he always keeps his cool and never does anything unnecessarily cruel or violent, then he would be neutral, not evil.

[AttilaTheGeek]

The easy and simple way to portray this is just to have zero regard for other creatures' lives besides their existence as tools. Let me say that again: zero respect for anyone except as a means to an end. It takes some stepping out of your comfort zone, but imagine that NPC over there is a pair of pliers. That's all they are, just a tool. They're a tool you can pick up, put down, and break whenever you want. And so the phrase "do I care if this NPC lives or dies" becomes "do I care if this pair of pliers is broken"? If you weren't going to use it, you really don't. Of course, it's not necessary to go out of your way to break a pair of pliers you weren't going to use anyway, but if they're not helping, then the only cost to doing so is the time it takes to run your blade through them.

[Alberic Strein]

Counterproductive advice here:

There are sliding scales of evil.

Because your character falls under the "evil" criteria doesn't mean that he can't do entirely selfless acts. As a lawful character you might, might, be of the idea to have him rationalize saving orphans from a burning orphanage, as in following an obscure law, or playing the long game, but just because your character is evil does not mean he HAS to have his evil mask on all the time.

Example: You get the power. Your nation is subsequently besieged by an army of invaders. How can you save most of your people? By ordering a number of assassinations, rigging duels, poisoning water (no need for the lethal part, just have them ill and they will fall back), etc... You did evil. You don't feel you should not have done that. You are playing an evil character. Yet outside of D&D terms, your character is slightly more complex than that.

Now, for the actual "evil" part.

Thrudd was 100% right to ask your character's goals. A CE character can be alright, just tagging along, enjoying himself, but as a LE character, a goal is to be important.

You might want to think a tad bit more on how/why you are corrupting your paladin order. For the heck of it? Do you want allies? Servants? What place holds the order in your plans?

However, unluckily unless I am wrong, your character is going to be do-gooding for a while.

It's my interpretation, feel free to disagree, you will be right about it, it's your character after all.

But your character wants power because he feels his uncle is weak, and gave away his power to more powerful beings. Hence your character feels he is morally stronger than his uncle, maybe physically even, but before he seizes power he will need the strength to be able to kill or at least take the adventurers out of the picture, and be strong enough to ward off the next ones (or the returning adventurers, death is, after all, but a slap on the wrist). So, how do we become stronger? Well, the fastest way is selling your soul to a devil, that is counterproductive however, since YOU want to be in control. The second fastest way is to kill things. To kill many, many things.

Now, how can we do that efficiently? Well, with a group. Good, you have one. Now, you need people telling you where the meatbags are. How do you get people to tell you where the meatbags are? Through a spy network, through a diviner network, and well, anyway to gather information FAST. Unluckily, that costs money. Better, it may cost money you don't earn. Villages don't usually have much funds. If you however tell them that you DON'T need a reward and that the next time anyone has any issue they can come to YOU, and to spread the word around, then bingo, you have your intelligence network. Once the money starts cashing in a bit (treasures, yada yada) you can pay a number of bards and minstrels to have the information circulate. Sooner rather than later you will be flooding with demands for you to kill meatbags. Too many to do by yourself, too.

THAT's when the order comes in. You give your fellow paladins missions so they can save the widow and the orphan. All the while nicely noticing that they are starting to work for YOU. This way, the lower meatbag missions are not wasted, and word spreads.

It's not that you don't have much opportunity for evil yet, but that you need a very good PR. If dogs need kicking, do it inside a silenced zone without witnesses.

In time, allies supporting your claim for the throne will come by themselves, you may need to have a few minions on payroll so they work on your PR on the noble courts, but it's not necessary. And if you do, take someone who won't ever, ever, ever betray you. Holding their absolutely most prized posession is a good start. But no need really, fame will bring you allies almost as certainly, don't do an hostile takeover yet. Power. You need moar POWER.

Most importantly, you need to keep in mind your objective: The Adventurers. The crown is but a consequence of kicking their arses. Once you have a sizeable order of paladins under your orders, once your teammates owe you enough favors, once you feel confident enough, you will have to take the offensive and best those adventurers.

Succeeding is going to be hard.

But once you do, the crown is as good as yours. You may feel it's wasteful to take it too soon, start implementing some bad decrees you will have to pass anyway through your uncle (who answers to you now), let him be your scapegoat, be an even more shining example of Virtue than before.

Also, let your paladins handle the logistics of your now huge mercenary operation. They will find that all this demands coin. So have them get the coin. Maybe not from the villages, at least from the local nobles and merchants. Congratulations, your paladins are now oppressing people for the greater good (nah, your ends, really).

Once the time is ripe, and really natural deaths do happen and are a boon for succession matters, take the crown for yourself, and start shaping up the kingdom to your image.

Ps: I am not to be responsible for the death of any cousins that might occur.

[ChaosArchon]

That's brilliant, it really is. The only problem is right now I technically serve the adventurers too, yes the hypocrisy is real but whoever said PCs weren't a bit hypocritical. The dynamic of the setting I'm in is that unless you're an adventurer for these adventurers, its' illegal for you to do adventuring and even then you still serve them because the run the country anyway. So my character chose to serve them for now in order to become more powerful so one day he can take the throne and the power the adventurers hold.

My party and I serve one out of twelve of these adventurers, and near as I can tell he is fine with us trying to take out the other adventurers who rule with him. So far so good, except in order to become one of his agents the whole party had to sign a contract which basically lets him peer into our minds whenever he wishes and by-pass whatever mental defenses we have (which as a psion//PoT gish I have quite a bit of). Right now I assume he knows of my ambitions but from what the DM says, he doesn't care because he thinks its impossible and its really adorable I think I can do such a thing...

[Thrudd]

That's brilliant, it really is. The only problem is right now I technically serve the adventurers too, yes the hypocrisy is real but whoever said PCs weren't a bit hypocritical. The dynamic of the setting I'm in is that unless you're an adventurer for these adventurers, its' illegal for you to do adventuring and even then you still serve them because the run the country anyway. So my character chose to serve them for now in order to become more powerful so one day he can take the throne and the power the adventurers hold.

My party and I serve one out of twelve of these adventurers, and near as I can tell he is fine with us trying to take out the other adventurers who rule with him. So far so good, except in order to become one of his agents the whole party had to sign a contract which basically lets him peer into our minds whenever he wishes and by-pass whatever mental defenses we have (which as a psion//PoT gish I have quite a bit of). Right now I assume he knows of my ambitions but from what the DM says, he doesn't care because he thinks its impossible and its really adorable I think I can do such a thing...

Uk. It sounds like a campaign world full of unassailable DMPC's that can intervene in your affairs whenever they want. I hope it doesn't really go down that way, and you actually do have a chance of beating them. But even the fact that they exist and know about your characters is a troubling sign to me. Why wouldn't they come crush you the second you get enough power to actually be a threat? Maybe you can get out of their domain and found your own kingdom somewhere else to rival them.

[Alberic Strein]

Oh, complications. I LOVE complications.

Securing a way to mindwipe yourself and get back your lost thoughts are going to be pretty high on your priority list. Maybe a way to stock your thoughts?

Anyway, since you can't prevent him looking at your head, you need to clear your head of those thoughts. Not now, not too fast. You need to take it slow, he needs to think that you somehow overgrew your childish antics. You need to have something that can hold your plan for you, and only consult it when the adventurer is sleeping.

Maybe ask your GM if some divine intervention is possible. Like give the part of your soul which houses your desires for conquest to your God and only get in touch with it when you pray to him.

If you feel particularly insane, you could contract the biggest baddest demon possible and give him a riddle/challenge "You shall lurk in my mind, if you are seen, then the seer shall be your prey, if by the end of my days you were not seen, then my flesh and my soul shall be yours forever."

Or see what happens when you pray to your God and are in direct contact with him while the adventurer is probing your mind. A mind is a terrible thing to probe. Even more when it's linked to things beyond human.

I don't think any other power besides a contract on your soul could counter the contract you have with the adventurer.

Well, at least, the adventurer is unlikely to stop your program as long as it remains small scale. It's more efficient, which is positive to him. You are one of his assets, he is going to be happy if you perform well.

[Sartharina]

Counterproductive advice here:

There are sliding scales of evil.

Because your character falls under the "evil" criteria doesn't mean that he can't do entirely selfless acts. As a lawful character you might, might, be of the idea to have him rationalize saving orphans from a burning orphanage, as in following an obscure law, or playing the long game, but just because your character is evil does not mean he HAS to have his evil mask on all the time.

Example: You get the power. Your nation is subsequently besieged by an army of invaders. How can you save most of your people? By ordering a number of assassinations, rigging duels, poisoning water (no need for the lethal part, just have them ill and they will fall back), etc... You did evil. You don't feel you should not have done that. You are playing an evil character. Yet outside of D&D terms, your character is slightly more complex than that.

Now, for the actual "evil" part.

Thrudd was 100% right to ask your character's goals. A CE character can be alright, just tagging along, enjoying himself, but as a LE character, a goal is to be important.

You might want to think a tad bit more on how/why you are corrupting your paladin order. For the heck of it? Do you want allies? Servants? What place holds the order in your plans?

However, unluckily unless I am wrong, your character is going to be do-gooding for a while.

It's my interpretation, feel free to disagree, you will be right about it, it's your character after all.

But your character wants power because he feels his uncle is weak, and gave away his power to more powerful beings. Hence your character feels he is morally stronger than his uncle, maybe physically even, but before he seizes power he will need the strength to be able to kill or at least take the adventurers out of the picture, and be strong enough to ward off the next ones (or the returning adventurers, death is, after all, but a slap on the wrist). So, how do we become stronger? Well, the fastest way is selling your soul to a devil, that is counterproductive however, since YOU want to be in control. The second fastest way is to kill things. To kill many, many things.

Now, how can we do that efficiently? Well, with a group. Good, you have one. Now, you need people telling you where the meatbags are. How do you get people to tell you where the meatbags are? Through a spy network, through a diviner network, and well, anyway to gather information FAST. Unluckily, that costs money. Better, it may cost money you don't earn. Villages don't usually have much funds. If you however tell them that you DON'T need a reward and that the next time anyone has any issue they can come to YOU, and to spread the word around, then bingo, you have your intelligence network. Once the money starts cashing in a bit (treasures, yada yada) you can pay a number of bards and minstrels to have the information circulate. Sooner rather than later you will be flooding with demands for you to kill meatbags. Too many to do by yourself, too.

THAT's when the order comes in. You give your fellow paladins missions so they can save the widow and the orphan. All the while nicely noticing that they are starting to work for YOU. This way, the lower meatbag missions are not wasted, and word spreads.

It's not that you don't have much opportunity for evil yet, but that you need a very good PR. If dogs need kicking, do it inside a silenced zone without witnesses.

In time, allies supporting your claim for the throne will come by themselves, you may need to have a few minions on payroll so they work on your PR on the noble courts, but it's not necessary. And if you do, take someone who won't ever, ever, ever betray you. Holding their absolutely most prized posession is a good start. But no need really, fame will bring you allies almost as certainly, don't do an hostile takeover yet. Power. You need moar POWER.

Most importantly, you need to keep in mind your objective: The Adventurers. The crown is but a consequence of kicking their arses. Once you have a sizeable order of paladins under your orders, once your teammates owe you enough favors, once you feel confident enough, you will have to take the offensive and best those adventurers.

Succeeding is going to be hard.

But once you do, the crown is as good as yours. You may feel it's wasteful to take it too soon, start implementing some bad decrees you will have to pass anyway through your uncle (who answers to you now), let him be your scapegoat, be an even more shining example of Virtue than before.

Also, let your paladins handle the logistics of your now huge mercenary operation. They will find that all this demands coin. So have them get the coin. Maybe not from the villages, at least from the local nobles and merchants. Congratulations, your paladins are now oppressing people for the greater good (nah, your ends, really).

Once the time is ripe, and really natural deaths do happen and are a boon for succession matters, take the crown for yourself, and start shaping up the kingdom to your image.

Ps: I am not to be responsible for the death of any cousins that might occur.

... With such reliance on Paladins used to being Paladins, how do you keep them from realizing, once you unmask yourself as actually a Villain, that they can usurp you in the name of Righteousness, and use the infrastructure and trust you set up to try being the Evil Overlord to turn it into a beacon of fair rule by Heironeous?

[Cowardly Griffo]

Uk. It sounds like a campaign world full of unassailable DMPC's that can intervene in your affairs whenever they want. I hope it doesn't really go down that way, and you actually do have a chance of beating them. But even the fact that they exist and know about your characters is a troubling sign to me. Why wouldn't they come crush you the second you get enough power to actually be a threat? Maybe you can get out of their domain and found your own kingdom somewhere else to rival them.

+1 to this. "Sign this get-out-of-PC-planning-free card or you don't get to play in the campaign" sounds really bad. I mean, like, you don't get any anti-mind-probing defenses? No high-DC saving throws, no nothing, even when that's apparently a huge strength of your build and you have very good in-character reasons to keep your plans hidden? P'takh move, by the sounds.

That said? I second the last sentence in particular. As a player, being stuck in a beholden-to-retired-GMPCs scenario sounds like a very good motivation to go off the reservation and find a new part of the world to play in.

And as a character? Being stuck in a a beholden-to-retired-adventurers scenario sounds like a very good motivation to go off the reservation and find a new part of the world to play in.

No, but really, though. Talk to your GM. The free-mind-probing-at-will from a quest-giver who's literally chuckling at you thing is awful. At the very least, s/he owes you a loophole that you can exploit, Lawful Evil or not.

[ChaosArchon]

Alright to be fair I don't have that much anti-mind defenses yet, so it's not a huge part of my build but any powers that have the ability to block it out are nearly useless for be to pick up because they are useless.

As for the paladins I'm not alone in being a PoT instead of a PoO, as I'm part of a sect in the order whose goal it is to get the rest of the order to fall... I'm just not quite sure yet but I'm planning on using my PCs powers as a telepath to mess with them and put them into situations where they might fall... I'm just not sure what would constitute that. Like if I Dominated a kid (god that sounds messed up out of context) and had him try to kill a paladin, if the pally kills him does he fall? These are the questions

As for leaving the continent it's not possible because as far as we know its the only continent in existence, and also the contract also binds us to the Sunguise in perpetuity until he releases us from the contact, as in our souls aren't allowed to resist being rez'd even if we wanted to.

EDIT: I want to note that right now in the campaign this isn't really affecting us, as its so early (we're only lv6) that taking the Sunguises on isn't even feasible plus the DM is pretty great and everyone's having a great time. Just musing on how to progress with my plans.

[Alberic Strein]

... With such reliance on Paladins used to being Paladins, how do you keep them from realizing, once you unmask yourself as actually a Villain, that they can usurp you in the name of Righteousness, and use the infrastructure and trust you set up to try being the Evil Overlord to turn it into a beacon of fair rule by Heironeous?

Oh yes. Totally. 100% true. Truthfully it could happen and it would be awesome! The kickass empire we are today? Well, it all started with a tyranical paladin... Good stuff. Can the thing hold it together? Probably not. But really, card carrying villains don't get to reign free for a long time with active characters with actual class levels. Better yet, it can make for an awesome second campaign.

That being said.

1) Depends on how evil you are relative to their corruption. If you get to the point where they don't object to enforcing strict rules to prevent loss of human life, as well as supplementary taxes to arm the land to prevent more losses of human life (on paper), then even when you out yourself as evil, you still have that sweet, sweet retort "Yes, and I brought this land peace, order, prosperity and strength. Are you going to throw all that away because of a notion you once believed in? The greater good may need some evil to work sometimes, doesn't it?"

2) There is being evil and being Nale evil. You don't HAVE to out yourself as evil. You are. You know it. Your God knows it. Your significant other knows it. The paladins don't need to know it. It can be oddly satisfying to see paladins profess their love of the light without them even realising they are corrupted and serving an evil overlord. Laughing last is still laughing. In case you don't out yourself as evil, but are outed as such because you implement more and more tyrannical measures, well, it means three things. First, you didn't use scapegoats liberally enough. Second, you went too fast. Thirdly, you forgot to recite to yourself each morning "Bread and circuses". As long as the locals are fed and happy, they won't care for a revolution. As long as the people don't care for a revolution, paladins won't want a civil war. Also, you are evil. Use assassins.

3) Well, they might want it. They might try. You may very well beat them. Beat them, keep them on your payroll as effective pawns until they revolt again. Repeat until they understand that "might makes right". At which point they will keep trying to overthrow you, but to continue your legacy. Still counts.

And again, even if you fail terribly, your system being used as a beacon of light for centuries to come would still make good party talk between gods and during your afterlife.

However, your underlying point is, I feel, that the system in itself is not evil. If the GM lets it fly, it's effective, but that's that. There is nothing evil about it and it could be pretty much used by anyone anywhere. And you would be right. I like the idea of corrupting your own righteous system into the evil thing it was always meant to be, but at its core, it's just a trick to kill meatbags.


Edit: Yes. No. Maybe. Falling can be tied to a single act, but it's more often the character switching to something different, less just, less good. It's more often a long process which culminates in a particular act.

So just killing a kid in self defence? He will get scolded, have to pray a lot, try to make good to balance his sins. But immediate, irremediable fall? Naaaaah.

Now, let's say an orphanage burns. The paladin tries to save a child. He gets the child out, but he is dying, and no amount of healing hands will do the trick. Now, you use your dominate power and have the kid condemn the paladin for not saving him, for not saving anyone. To shake his identity as a paladin to his very core. If we're speaking D&D, maybe so stealth, super short version of animate dead would work better. He didn't save the child. You use the still hot corpse as a way to relay a message. Not being clear there. Well, you get my drift. The important bit is shaking his identity as a paladin as deeply as possible. "You can't save anyone".

Then, another day, another child the paladin tries to save, preferably near a cliff or some immediate danger to fall into. The paladin tries to save the child whom you dominate, have him act like he is scared, screams the paladin to stay away from him, jumps off the cliff/whatever and as the paladin goes for a diving lunge, the child uses a blade to slice the paladin's hand. The physical damage is irrelevant. The trauma is not. There is a progression, your goal is to tell him "He died because of what YOU did."

Now, last day, last child, try to dominate an armed child. Like a survivor from a razed town who desperately tries to protect his sister. Dominate him, have him charge at the paladin, or even merely run to him, still armed, but not making a motion to attack. Odds are your paladin has a longer weapon. Now, if the trauma did his work and he picked the trend, there are odds that, even before the child even comes close to him, he will slice his head clear off. Because helping a child always ended up with him hurt in the end, and the progression is not that many steps further than inadvertantly causing the death of a child (or so he believes).

At that point, the paladin, by his own accord, decided that taking the risk to open up to a small child, to save the poor and the orphan, was not worth the hassle. Hello fall!

And he will probably feel very justified in his reaction too. Hello, unrepenting and thus irremediable fall!

Making paladins fall 101.

[Thrudd]

Alright to be fair I don't have that much anti-mind defenses yet, so it's not a huge part of my build but any powers that have the ability to block it out are nearly useless for be to pick up because they are useless.

As for the paladins I'm not alone in being a PoT instead of a PoO, as I'm part of a sect in the order whose goal it is to get the rest of the order to fall... I'm just not quite sure yet but I'm planning on using my PCs powers as a telepath to mess with them and put them into situations where they might fall... I'm just not sure what would constitute that. Like if I Dominated a kid (god that sounds messed up out of context) and had him try to kill a paladin, if the pally kills him does he fall? These are the questions

As for leaving the continent it's not possible because as far as we know its the only continent in existence, and also the contract also binds us to the Sunguise in perpetuity until he releases us from the contact, as in our souls aren't allowed to resist being rez'd even if we wanted to.

EDIT: I want to note that right now in the campaign this isn't really affecting us, as its so early (we're only lv6) that taking the Sunguises on isn't even feasible plus the DM is pretty great and everyone's having a great time. Just musing on how to progress with my plans.

LOL, ok, so it's a HYDRA and SHIELD situation from the last Capt America and SHIELD TV show. You're a part of the secret evil organization undermining the good organization from within. And the Avengers are going to come kick your guys' butts unless you get strong enough to beat them before you tip your hand. You've even got Prof. X probing your mind already, so you can't hide. So it looks like you are going to be pretending to be a good guy for quite a long time.

[ChaosArchon]

Well the Sunguises aren't good, hell the one I'm working for is CN and the one the other team is working for is LE (I think).

But yes I do like the long drawn out corruption of one paladin, maybe he could be my apprentice *cue Imperial March*

[Sartharina]

Oh yes. Totally. 100% true. Truthfully it could happen and it would be awesome! The kickass empire we are today? Well, it all started with a tyranical paladin... Good stuff. Can the thing hold it together? Probably not. But really, card carrying villains don't get to reign free for a long time with active characters with actual class levels. Better yet, it can make for an awesome second campaign.

That being said.

1) Depends on how evil you are relative to their corruption. If you get to the point where they don't object to enforcing strict rules to prevent loss of human life, as well as supplementary taxes to arm the land to prevent more losses of human life (on paper), then even when you out yourself as evil, you still have that sweet, sweet retort "Yes, ans I brought this land peace, order, prosperity and strength. Are you going to throw all that away because of a notion you once believed in? The greater good may need some evil to work sometimes, doesn't it?"

Their response is "You built it by following and instilling in us the virtues of blah-blah-blah. And now you have turned your back on those, and by your own laws stand down or die like any other monster we've slain during your ascension"

[quote]2) There is being evil and being Nale evil. You don't HAVE to out yourself as evil. You are. You know it. Your God knows it. Your significant other knows it. The paladins don't need to know it. It can be oddly satisfying to see paladins profess their love of the light without them even realising they are corrupted and serving an evil overlord. Laughing last is still laughing. In case you don't out yourself as evil, but are outed as such because you implement more and more tyrannical measures, well, it means three things. First, you didn't use scapegoats liberally enough. Second, you went too fast. Thirdly, you forgot to recite to yourself each morning "Bread and circuses". As long as the locals are fed and happy, they won't care for a revolution. As long as the people don't care for a revolution, paladins won't want a civil war. Also, you are evil. Use assassins.[quote]Well, actions speak louder than words or thoughts. If you profess how evil and wicked you are, yet your policies are fair and just, keep the world safe, help grannies cross streets, keep the wealthy from exploiting the poor, keep the poor from rotting in gutters, protect children and families from monsters, etc without any brutality (It might make people hate you!), fear (They might not trust you!), etc... you get an "F" in Evil.

[Alberic Strein]

Their response is "You built it by following and instilling in us the virtues of blah-blah-blah. And now you have turned your back on those, and by your own laws stand down or die like any other monster we've slain during your ascension"

"YOUR ascension? I must have missed something. But no, I will accept it. Your ascension it is. To what? Justice? Good? You are not standing before me for ideals. Not when you happily enforce my laws and take from the people you ought to protect. You come here for power. Very well, let this be your ascension if you have the will for it. Now come, let us see who deserves Hextor's favor!"

Well, actions speak louder than words or thoughts. If you profess how evil and wicked you are, yet your policies are fair and just, keep the world safe, help grannies cross streets, keep the wealthy from exploiting the poor, keep the poor from rotting in gutters, protect children and families from monsters, etc without any brutality (It might make people hate you!), fear (They might not trust you!), etc... you get an "F" in Evil.

Surprisingly, the interests of tyrants and the ones they govern often lie in the same place.

Also, it depends. Since the OP talked about paladin of tyranny, I was referring to a D&D/PF setting, in which your outlook on life does matter. In D&D if you do a totally evil act, you won't automatically become evil. Refusing to repent for this act does. So technically refusing the alignment system, refusing to accept your acts as being evil, as being wrong, will make you evil even if you don't make more avil acts than a neutral character who accepts it as wrong. D&D is weird with that kind of things.

Now again, there are some subtleties. For example, in your personal life, and in matters which don't affect the kingdom, your place of power, you could be the worst being on earth. You just don't let that happen outside of silenced witnessless rooms. This would still make you irremediably evil even though your policies are fair and just.

Second subtlety, you can make some efficient policies without them being fair/just/etc... Heavy taxation for example, or exercing complete control over trade (which can be a pretty bad idea). It is also about choosing one's target. Treat your enemies with unending hatred and your family with unending love. Your people won't be against you treating strangers, wanderers, etc... Terribly, as long as they don't get treated terribly. And for the common folk, being treated terribly means starving. As long as they are not getting killed, the common folk will take a LOT of abuse. It doesn't make it right, but you can get away with it. Fear is sub-optimal. If possible, make them love you. If not possible, fear will suffice.

I'm rambling on stupidly, so here is the condensed version:

1) You can be a great statesman who is an absolute boon to the kingdom, and still be a monster in your private life.
2) Being efficient can mean being utterly ruthless and evil (poisoning armies, assassinating leaders, etc...) your people will see it as positive (no war/short war, not many casualties) while you just raked in a huge number of sins.
3) You can brutally abuse your peasants, as long as you don't make them die and you give them something to occupy their minds and keep the PR working, they won't hate you.
4) You can trust someone you fear and indeed fear is a relatively effective way to control people. There are better, and in doubt you should use them, but you can still make examples. As long as you don't forget to help up the sniveling swine who rebelled against you and then bent the knee after you defeated him, you can evoke trust in people, even though you just slaughtered the second traitor who did NOT submit, and then slaughtered his family, each person sharing his name, each of his retainers, let no wall of his castle standing and no fields of his unsalted. And then made a song about it.
5) Some poisons are sweet. You can make "might makes right", the philosophy of your LE god, an integral part of your kingdom while still having it seem positive (meritocratic system, duels as a fair way to settle disputes (ha!), hope for the working class, expansionism), which amounts to slowly corrupting your people into evil. That itself is at least worth a B-.

Or something like that.

[MLai]

This is from a perspective outside the game:

I think the alignment system is a guide to inform the player of his general narrative direction, not for informing the character. What that means is you the player knows you are Lawful Evil, but your character doesn't think that way. He thinks he's the greatest guy on Earth.

He thinks he wants to supplant his uncle because the man is weak and a bad ruler. He thinks under his method of rulership, the country will prosper. He thinks the people need a strong hand to guide them, or else like sheep without a sheepdog they'll just all run off a cliff. He thinks to do all the above, breaking a few eggs is inevitable. He thinks the only god who understands him and what he's trying to do is Hextor, and all the other gods are just self-serving hypocrites.

He can save orphans because he's a just and honorable knight. He can kill orphans because they were his enemy's informants, and his enemy must be stopped. At no time does the word "evil" ever cross his brain. Just as it never crossed the brain of Tywin Lannister.

Your character is not Evil. You just have to understand him.

[Segev]

1) Your character is a worshipper of Hextor. Hextor would not likely approve of you trying to overthrow a stronger leader than yourself for no reason, however, your current goal seems to be to overthrow a puppet of that stronger ruler, which will only put you in more direct service to said ruler. On the other hand, Hextor may not approve of this evil Adventurer-ruler if said ruler is not also an adherent of Hextor. A loyal worshipper is better than a happens-to-be-tyrannical non-worshipper.

Because of this, Hextor may be able and willing to help shelter your mind from your boss.

2) You're a psion? The key to getting out of your little problem is relatively straight-forward, though hard to plan. Autohypnosis will help you keep your own plans secret from yourself most of the time. Become obsessed with spreading your will around. Keep your thoughts focused on this as your primary goal. Learn Mind Seed, and seed one or more individuals as "you."

Have your thoughts focused hard on "may as well focus on spreading my will because it's just futile to resist my boss, who can read my thoughts at any time." This will spread to your Mind Seeded clone(s), but they'll be able - being clever sorts, since they're you - to realize, "but I never signed that contract." Now THEY can start to plan how to make the original you their puppet in the name of your collective greater scheme. All the while, they play subservient to you, but they work together to manipulate you and even (with your willing failure of Will saves) rewrite your thoughts and memories so you think you're content in your place.

This ruthlessness with even your own self will be a demonstration of just how powerfully dedicated you are to your cause and goals. Your original self is the "adventurer" who does all the things you have to sign a contract to be allowed to do. The others are minions. Except they're not, really; they're you, so they have your same goals. They know they're equals. Or even superiors, since they have to control the original to make sure he stays on mission.

Every level or few, you mind-seed a new person, and then the others cleanse him of the trickery under which they keep the original and bring him into being up-to-date. Your army of minions grows, and adds new, higher-level versions of yourself to it, and each of them knows the truth.

[Synar]

I believe Alberic Strain and MLai made some very good points, but I just want to add one little thing: I don't believe one has to actually consistently commit evil acts yo be evil: he just has to be ready to do so if needed (and eventually have done so in the past). If making his people loves him and being a good ruler (which does not mean that he should not be ruthless [just like Ned Stark was at times, but in quite a different manner], as a ruler can rule with a strong fist against those that opposes him and fairly with those that abides by his rules, so it does not oppose your god's doctrine) is the way to go, then so be it. But if your character is still ready to use force, to send assassins, to crush and sacrificate innocents as examples or collateral damages for his plans if needed, and has no deep regard for the lives of his subjects (and even if he does if he likes more his power and position than them), he still is very, very much evil, even if does not at the moment need to do any of it.

By the way, some dictators often commited evil acts only because they were facing threats (other countries, rebellions, resistances, ennemies inside their ranks, power hungry usurpators, ...), be it real or imaginary, to protect them and their position [and to get this postition], so if your dictator paladin is under no threat, him commiting no evil is not against the general principle of tyranny. That said, evil for evil sake is also a very valid kind of evil (and more real and less cartoony than one may think), but it is a different one.

I was ninja'd, but I was going to suggest looking at Game of thrones for exemples (especially since using actual dictators or emperors would be agianst the rules of the forum) : look at the Tyrells, for exemple, which are not that good, evn if they act as if they had quite some concern for their people. Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton are also quite the interesting guy. Contrast with Jeoffrey, Bolton's bastard, or the Frey old man (one may say that this is Chaos vs Law, but I believe this not the only thing here, because the Frey does not seem that chaotic to me), which commit evil for the feelings it get them (be it feeling of power and control, and satisfaction of seeing his whims accomplished for the first (and a side of sadism), just sadism for the second, or a feeling of retribution (and yes, a little side of sadism) for the last.

P.S.:To MLai: what you say is true a lot of time, but here we are talking of a paladin of an evil god, so it gets a little fishy. But I can see how such a character would view his god's principles not as evil but as realist and right, as it is throught might alone that one can exerce his power, that the land needs a strong ruler for the greater good, and those that opposes him are opposing the greater good and they do not deserve his mercy. This is starting to make me think of Nietzsche position that the strong should be exercing their natural right to power, while moral and ethic are devious creations of the weak. And I don't belief Nietzsche viewed himself as evil, althought I'm not sure he actually believd what he said. Well in fact I guess I agree with you.

And I need to learn to ramble less.