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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    Another thought that might pump sorcerers a little bit in the versatility department: While they still only count as having Sor/Wiz spells on their "class spell list" (and thus for purposes of spell completion/trigger items), they may learn any spell in the game that is of a level they could normally learn it at when filling their spell slots.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith View Post
    Again, scribing spells is not the huge gold sink that you seem to think it is. It costs a few hundred gold to scribe most spells; that is trivial past very low levels. A level 5 Wizard has an expected WBL of 9,000 gp, and a spell of her maximum spell level will cost 300 gold to scribe. That's not cheap, sure, but it isn't drastically expensive (scribing six of them would cost less than a +1 weapon, and you can get more spells known out of that same amount of gold if you scribe more lower-level spells). And at, say, level 10? Expected WBL: 49,000 gp. Cost to scribe a spell of the highest spell level known? 500 gp. Unless you are, for whatever reason, dedicated to learning every single spell ever, scribing spells is pretty affordable once you get past very low levels (the levels at which a Sorcerer's restricted spell knowledge is extremely painful).
    Scribing costs are not the big money sink. I generally ignore them altogether, they end up being far less significant than the cost of the spells themselves.

    ASSUMING (which no published setting does by default - even Forgotten Realms) that you have access to Ye Olde Magicke Marte with any spell in any book available for purchase as a scroll, a 3rd level spell costs minimum 375gp to purchase, and then 300 gp to scribe. A level 5 spell costs a minimum 1125gp to purchase, and then 500gp to scribe.

    Everyone seems to assume the wizard is getting all these spells free, usually by trading with some conveniently available other wizard. Except the ability to find such a wizard is contingent on the DM, and is in most cases less available than the scrolls that show up as random loot on encounters.

    Someone in this thread even went so far as to say it is the DM's job to make these wizard spellbooks available to the party wizard. No, it is not. In fact it is the DM's job to prevent such a thing from happening too often. Under no circumstances should the DM be proactively taking actions that make the strongest class in the game even stronger.
    Last edited by Talya; 2014-07-16 at 01:37 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Scribing costs are not the big money sink. I generally ignore them altogether, they end up being far less significant than the cost of the spells themselves.

    ASSUMING (which no published setting does by default - even Forgotten Realms) that you have access to Ye Olde Magicke Marte with any spell in any book available for purchase as a scroll, a 3rd level spell costs minimum 375gp to purchase, and then 300 gp to scribe. A level 5 spell costs a minimum 1125gp to purchase, and then 500gp to scribe.

    Everyone seems to assume the wizard is getting all these spells free, usually by trading with some conveniently available other wizard. Except the ability to find such a wizard is contingent on the DM, and is in most cases less available than the scrolls that show up as random loot on encounters.

    Someone in this thread even went so far as to say it is the DM's job to make these wizard spellbooks available to the party wizard. No, it is not. In fact it is the DM's job to prevent such a thing from happening too often. Under no circumstances should the DM be proactively taking actions that make the strongest class in the game even stronger.
    There's a listed price for access to a spell in another wizard's spellbook (interestingly it's roughly the cost of writing the spell in a backup spell-book, which implies to me that you probably have to wait a day while he copies the spell prior to getting access to his "free" new backup book rather than the primary). The settlement size description on what's for sale pretty well states that it follows that you can get any spell at any settlement of any significant size.

    Mind, I'd completely ignore this if convenient; but doing so in no significant way hinders the wizard, as he can get far more spells than he's likely to need at the cost of one feat and no cash.

    Spell access is not a significant limitation in 3.x.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    While I've read most of this thread, I've skimmed over a few of the larger posts. What it looks like it boils down to is this:

    The Wizard has (given some leeway in resources) a much more diverse spell selection, which may or may not be available at any given time. He may take 15 minutes to fill a previously unfilled slot with a spell from his books.

    The Sorcerer, at least the smart one, has a much more versatile spell selection, which is available to him at any time. He might not have the Perfect Spell for the Job, but he probably has one that's close, and he can make it work. Compared to the Wizard, he doesn't need to know how many times he needs a spell each day.

    The wizard gets spell access sooner, and depending on class features, can cast spells about as many times as a Sorcerer per day; the Wizard, however, gives up some of his vaunted diversity for this ability.


    The Psion, on the other hand, laughs at your magical crutches, takes 10 minutes and a bit of EXP, and now knows an entirely different power set than she did at the start of this exercise. Also she can reassign her skills and feats while she does that. Side effects may include mild brain damage. We're still not sure how this works.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Spell access is not a significant limitation in 3.x.
    Depends on the campaign. If your wizard is the highest level in the area, and you can't get anywhere else, then good luck finding someone to trade your high level spells with.
    Last edited by IAmTehDave; 2014-07-16 at 02:13 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    There's a listed price for access to a spell in another wizard's spellbook (interestingly it's roughly the cost of writing the spell in a backup spell-book, which implies to me that you probably have to wait a day while he copies the spell prior to getting access to his "free" new backup book rather than the primary). The settlement size description on what's for sale pretty well states that it follows that you can get any spell at any settlement of any significant size.

    Mind, I'd completely ignore this if convenient; but doing so in no significant way hinders the wizard, as he can get far more spells than he's likely to need at the cost of one feat and no cash.

    Spell access is not a significant limitation in 3.x.

    No, that is not what it states.
    It only states a cost for spellbook access in the event such a transaction is available. It does not state that such things are commonplace, or easily accessible, or that once you go through the arduous task of finding a wizard willing to trade spells that they will have precisely the spells you are looking for. It only presents a guideline for the cost when such a thing happens.

    (As for that one feat...it's a very good feat. Keep in mind that if you plan to rely on it, you have to stay in Wizard without taking significant numbers of levels in any spellcasting-advancing PRCs.)
    Last edited by Talya; 2014-07-16 at 02:27 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Wizards versus Sorcerers

    Quote Originally Posted by Noble Savant
    Um... Assuming you're ignoring the Quill here, which makes that Trivial.
    You assume incorrectly, I don't know what "the Quill" is. Maybe you could provide useful information of some kind? (such as the sourcebook)

    You're also wrong about the number of spells, there are at least 2523 Wizard spells, possibly more. That also doesn't include the virtually infinite number of custom spells that can be created. We were only discussing the prefabricated ones.

    Each spell requires a decipher script check (time cost negligible, but failure of which requires waiting another day, so anywhere from 0-infinity extra days).
    Each spell deciphered requires a day of study and a spellcraft check (so at least 2523 days, or ~6 years minimum; failure means no retry until gaining skill points, i.e. levels...potential time, infinity.)
    Each spell deciphered and studied requires another day to copy into their spell book, so another 6 years. So far we're looking at a minimum of 12 years time, plus possible stoppage time of infinity.

    Perhaps this quill obviates some of that? But if it just reduces the scribe time, that's ok, but you still have to acquire the spells themselves which could take forever on its own.

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    Or you could cast Hoard Gullet and eat them.
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    The first level Horde Gullet spell, although somewhat disgusting, gives him 100 pounds capacity per level (max 1000) for a duration of one hour per level.
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    You can safely swallow and transport any object you could normally swallow (including items at least three size categories smaller than you).
    Your wizards are in the wrong business if they can fit spellbooks in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith
    WBL of 9,000 gp, and a spell of her maximum spell level will cost 300 gold to scribe.
    It costs 300 to scribe the 3rd level spell and another 150 to borrow a spellbook (assuming that's an option) to scribe from. Scrolls go for anywhere from 375-875, so the cost could be as little as 450, or 675, or as much as 1175. The Wizard can afford to access between 7 and 20 spells, but only if they don't have any other gear and didn't pick up any of the lower level spells. There are 42 3rd level Wizard spells in just the PHB, so our hypothetical Wizard can spend all their WBL to eventually have half (assuming they can even locate the spells, of course).

    I don't see a Wizard who spends 100% of their income on spells making it to level 10 for the opportunity to spend (just running a quick figure here: 500 to scribe, 250 to borrow or 1,125 to 10,125 to buy a scroll of is between 750, 1625, or 10625; so between 65 and 4 spells (of the highest level) of which there are only 43 in core, so 65% of available wealth) to spend 65% of their wealth on just that current level's spells. Assuming they can even find them.

    I'd be fascinated to see someone actually try to do this in a game, but I don't see it as anything more than an amusing dream.

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