League of Legends LX: A Song of Loss and Ire - Dance at Dragon

[Olinser]

Spoiler: CLG v LMQ

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Gaaaaaah
Gaaaaaah
Gaaaaaah

So many horrible things happened in that game.

THE PLAYS

THE THROWS

THE QUADRAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh that game really delivered from a viewer standpoint :P

[Artanis]

Spoiler: CLG v LMQ

Show

Baron: "I'm open! I'm open!"
CLG: "Seems legit!" *throws*

Also, ackerman is a BOSS.

[TechnOkami]

So I'm at the really weird point in my career where everyone I play with in solo queue is a really annoying tryhard, and every time I group with someone, you all are so much better than me that I just get utterly wrecked. Any idea how to deal with this?

Keep struggling? Try not to get angry and pick up what you can playing with the more experienced players? That's what I would recommend, for what it's worth.

[mrcarter11]

Trying to do a polling, if people would like to be helpful, much appreciated.

So currently late game focused, 45 min+ games are what we as viewers are seeing more and more of. The champion picks seem mostly geared towards huge late game power, and most games seem to hit a point where a single teamfight win for either team will decide the game. What I'm looking for opinions on is this meta. Do you enjoy watching these games, do you feel junglers are still able to carve out useful leads for their team, or do you feel that generally the early kills/drakes are worthless due to how late the games typically go? What would you say the primary cause for this new meta is?


As I said, answer if you wanna be helpful, if you don't, well,, okay.

[ex cathedra]

junglers are relevant lategame as long as they provide utility, generally in the form of CC. Lee Sin is a great champion to have in 40 minute games even if his damage isn't very relevant, and Elise would be a solid champion lategame even if her damage wasn't so relevant. this meta hasn't really marginalised junglers at all, as far as I can tell, except for those junglers who weren't previously good in the first place.

games require teamfighting because inhibitors no longer provide enough pressure to crack a base on their own.

early leads still translate into wins more often than not, and early kills/drakes actually are valuable enough to create leads thanks to recent patches

[efdf]

I don't like late game team fights because it puts more importance on skillshot accuracy and probabilistic plays that I don't really enjoy as a viewer.

So I'm at the really weird point in my career where everyone I play with in solo queue is a really annoying tryhard, and every time I group with someone, you all are so much better than me that I just get utterly wrecked. Any idea how to deal with this?

queue with me

Spoiler

Show

[Godskook]

So I'm at the really weird point in my career where everyone I play with in solo queue is a really annoying tryhard, and every time I group with someone, you all are so much better than me that I just get utterly wrecked. Any idea how to deal with this?

Deal with what, exactly? "Tryhard" isn't doesn't have a very clear grievance associated with it, and the latter problem is best solved through sheer perseverance.

[Siosilvar]

queue with me
-snip-

Is that every single jungle and flat MPen item

on Renekton


... I'm not sure how I feel about this

[ex cathedra]

Is that every single jungle and flat MPen item

on Renekton


... I'm not sure how I feel about this

double zhonya's corki :^)
i try to surround myself w/ great players...

[Forum Explorer]

movespeed quints cost twice as much as ap quints and are only recommended on a handful of laners

Ah, but I already have them.

literally every mid laner does physical damage

it's called an autoattack, and if you're not using it you need to start

If you are a ranged AP champion that isn't Karthus, HPen is better than MPen 99% of the time. This is why I listed them as "depending on how much IP you have".

Sure I use my auto attack, but in comparison to my abilities it does practically zero damage. I mostly use it to last hit minions.

So why is Hybrid Pen better? You get less MPen in total, and it seems the APen aspect is mostly going to waste.

Trying to do a polling, if people would like to be helpful, much appreciated.

So currently late game focused, 45 min+ games are what we as viewers are seeing more and more of. The champion picks seem mostly geared towards huge late game power, and most games seem to hit a point where a single teamfight win for either team will decide the game. What I'm looking for opinions on is this meta. Do you enjoy watching these games, do you feel junglers are still able to carve out useful leads for their team, or do you feel that generally the early kills/drakes are worthless due to how late the games typically go? What would you say the primary cause for this new meta is?


As I said, answer if you wanna be helpful, if you don't, well,, okay.

I am really enjoying the recent games, though I'd disagree with your anaylsis. Still I'd much rather have a close tense 45+ minute game, then a 35 minute total stomp.

[Nadevoc]

Sure I use my auto attack, but in comparison to my abilities it does practically zero damage. I mostly use it to last hit minions.

So why is Hybrid Pen better? You get less MPen in total, and it seems the APen aspect is mostly going to waste.

Flat penetration is strongest early game, and AAs are a lot of pretty much any character's power early levels.

Yes, your abilities will do more damage. A level two ability will generally do about twice as much as your AA. But your AA costs no mana and is never on CD for even half a second. If you're tossing out an AA on the enemy laner every time you get a chance, you're getting many more AAs on them than spells.

With hybrid pen marks, you're still getting about 75% of the MPen marks, but you're ALSO getting stronger AA harass.

[NineThePuma]

Also, the number of players who don't bring armor runes into an AP mid vs AP mid match up is staggering.

[Siosilvar]

Sure I use my auto attack, but in comparison to my abilities it does practically zero damage. I mostly use it to last hit minions.

So why is Hybrid Pen better? You get less MPen in total, and it seems the APen aspect is mostly going to waste.

Because harass is OP. Autos are free and while they may only do half the damage of your abilities at level 1, trading 2 MPen for 8 ArPen makes them actually hurt. If you're autoattacking even once for every two spells you use to harass, it's 100% worth the cost.

If you want a demonstration, I'm happy to oblige. You play whatever mid you want, I'll play Annie with HPen marks. Have fun never being above half health for more than a minute at a time while you're in lane (possible exception: crazy sustain stuff like Cho or Vlad).

That's not an exaggeration, by the way. I convinced a friend of mine who plays only Syndra at a mid-gold level to switch from MPen to HPen by doing exactly this once. He killed me a lot because he's better at mid lane than I am and Syndra's abilities are longer range, but I got the point across.

[Winthur]

Because harass is OP.

But if you are playing Karthus (who might as well not have an autoattack) or perhaps Twisted Fate (who turns all his auto damage into magic with W) and I can't think of anyone else, magic pen is straight up better and still cheaper.

Hybrid pen marks are a luxury buy, really. They're great and very useful, but the steep cost means nobody will really have a problem if you just go plain old magic pen. It's really up to you. Hybrid pen are generally superior, but runes aren't be all/end all and mpen are at least servicable. You can do very well with few and/or unoptimized runepages as long as you make up for it with skill.

above announcement brought to you by winthston's crit damage glyph emporium

I'll play Annie with HPen marks. Have fun never being above half health for more than a minute at a time while you're in lane.

Tip for all of you gangstas who are still climbing up levels or making smurfs: Make your first runepage AD. It'll still be tremendously applicable on introductory mages like Annie or Kennen simply because of their auto harassment capabilities, and will fit pretty much anything with AD. Just build normal AP and use AD as training wheels in lane for both last hitting and better harassment oomph.

[Ionbound]

Deal with what, exactly? "Tryhard" isn't doesn't have a very clear grievance associated with it, and the latter problem is best solved through sheer perseverance.

Let me rephrase that: Everyone is Solo queue wants me to play something I haven't before, or am not very good at (which is everything but top), and then they yell at me when I am not very good at it. Anyways, it doesn't matter now. I just play Alistar Support now when I queue with you guys, and do fairly well. All is well.

[Godskook]

Tip for all of you gangstas who are still climbing up levels or making smurfs: Make your first runepage AD. It'll still be tremendously applicable on introductory mages like Annie or Kennen simply because of their auto harassment capabilities, and will fit pretty much anything with AD. Just build normal AP and use AD as training wheels in lane for both last hitting and better harassment oomph.

To clarify, I'm reasonably sure Winthur means AD marks/quints with armor or hp seals and mr glyphs. To that, I agree, it makes a good first page.

[PhantomFox]

Let me rephrase that: Everyone is Solo queue wants me to play something I haven't before, or am not very good at (which is everything but top), and then they yell at me when I am not very good at it. Anyways, it doesn't matter now. I just play Alistar Support now when I queue with you guys, and do fairly well. All is well.

Look at it from the other side of the argument. Say you both want top. If he can play other lanes and you can't, the only way you can convince him to give you top is by highlighting your FLAWS in other lanes instead of your STRENGTHS, and that's a bad situation to be in. This is why I personally recommend learning how to play at least one champion in every position to a level where you're fine with playing a lane that's not your favorite. Assuming (falsely, but it's convenient for this example, hush) that desire for roles is spread evenly, the odds of no one wanting top is about 40%. Meaning you're going to have to fight for top with someone else 60% of the time. But as I mentioned, that's a false presupposition. The most desired lanes are the solo lanes (mid and top). So practice some other lanes from time to time. You're going to need it when you're not grouped with us.

[Ashen Lilies]

Because harass is OP. Autos are free and while they may only do half the damage of your abilities at level 1, trading 2 MPen for 8 ArPen makes them actually hurt. If you're autoattacking even once for every two spells you use to harass, it's 100% worth the cost.

If you want a demonstration, I'm happy to oblige. You play whatever mid you want, I'll play Annie with HPen marks. Have fun never being above half health for more than a minute at a time while you're in lane (possible exception: crazy sustain stuff like Cho or Vlad).

That's not an exaggeration, by the way. I convinced a friend of mine who plays only Syndra at a mid-gold level to switch from MPen to HPen by doing exactly this once. He killed me a lot because he's better at mid lane than I am and Syndra's abilities are longer range, but I got the point across.

Vlad is one of the few I would consider running MPen on, rather then HPen, at least in mid lane. In top lane vs. melee it's aa city, but in midlane virtually everyone outtrades you early (top lane too, for that matter, but it's harder for them to reach you), so you start boots and spend the lane running in, harassing with Q, and then running away before they can hit you back.

Start boots on top lane, too, actually. Just start boots on Vlad, unless it's someone who's guaranteed to reach you, in which case you start dshield or cloth5.

[ex cathedra]

start dshield or cloth5 or ruby crystal regardless

lots of champs are better off with just mpen

[abadguy]

Spoiler: CLG v LMQ

Show

Gaaaaaah
Gaaaaaah
Gaaaaaah

So many horrible things happened in that game.

Spoiler: CLG v LMQ

Show

Amazing swings, amazing throws. Think all ADC mains need to watch DL's masterclass in team fighting mechanics.

Ackerman was so beastly on Grags this game (those 3 huge plays - teleport after 1st baron to chunk DL, outplaying Seraph like mad and the sudden realisation that he was fed and could 100-0 DL in 1 rotation) but I think NoName deserves special mention for all the understated but absolutely game changing plays he made, dat baron steal being the biggest.

Jatt's comments were pretty merciless, I LOL-ed so hard when he said "This is how to lose a game 101"

Also, Dignitas is just so utterly disappointing to watch now, win or lose. Their two solo laners seem to be going through an adjustment period when the meta is shifting away from their favoured champions.

[Ashen Lilies]

Movement Speed is Vlad's best laning stat, as well as an incredibly underrated stat in general, especially in any lane where a range disparity exists.

Starting boots and grabbing sorc shoes + amp tome or ruby crystal on your first back gives you the same pen as a haunting guise, while sacrificing the other stats for unparalleled control. Vlad can't sustain a brawl early, so having combat stats is less useful than being able to outpace your opponent and just not get hit.

[Siosilvar]

Speaking of nonstandard builds and random stuff

Zach's friends come up with decent ideas.

Spoiler

Show

The leona game (in which I had a bronze 3 amumu tell me that I was only fed because Darius was bad and threaten me with a 1v1) was my idea, but it's included because that's what started it all

[Mercykilled]

'Allo people. just found this wonderful place and wanted to throw my name into the league pile. I play on the NA server and am currently trying to claw my scrubby butt out of Bronze 1. just found the mumble stuff and logged on if anyone wants to get a game or two going.

Mercykilled: NA Server

[Forum Explorer]

Let me rephrase that: Everyone is Solo queue wants me to play something I haven't before, or am not very good at (which is everything but top), and then they yell at me when I am not very good at it. Anyways, it doesn't matter now. I just play Alistar Support now when I queue with you guys, and do fairly well. All is well.

Well it's always good to learn new roles.

Spoiler: CLG v LMQ

Show

Amazing swings, amazing throws. Think all ADC mains need to watch DL's masterclass in team fighting mechanics.

Ackerman was so beastly on Grags this game (those 3 huge plays - teleport after 1st baron to chunk DL, outplaying Seraph like mad and the sudden realisation that he was fed and could 100-0 DL in 1 rotation) but I think NoName deserves special mention for all the understated but absolutely game changing plays he made, dat baron steal being the biggest.

Jatt's comments were pretty merciless, I LOL-ed so hard when he said "This is how to lose a game 101"

Also, Dignitas is just so utterly disappointing to watch now, win or lose. Their two solo laners seem to be going through an adjustment period when the meta is shifting away from their favoured champions.

Agreed on the LMQ vs CLG game, that was a pretty cool game overall, despite the throws.

Really? I thought Dignitas was pretty dominating against EG, though they have been on a pretty bad losing streak otherwise.

Because harass is OP. Autos are free and while they may only do half the damage of your abilities at level 1, trading 2 MPen for 8 ArPen makes them actually hurt. If you're autoattacking even once for every two spells you use to harass, it's 100% worth the cost.

If you want a demonstration, I'm happy to oblige. You play whatever mid you want, I'll play Annie with HPen marks. Have fun never being above half health for more than a minute at a time while you're in lane (possible exception: crazy sustain stuff like Cho or Vlad).

That's not an exaggeration, by the way. I convinced a friend of mine who plays only Syndra at a mid-gold level to switch from MPen to HPen by doing exactly this once. He killed me a lot because he's better at mid lane than I am and Syndra's abilities are longer range, but I got the point across.

I think that'd be pretty fun. Once I actually finish this runepage, I'll take you up on that. Though it's worth noting that I'm a very defensive player. My auto attacks on champions vs spells on champion ratio is not 1:2. It might be as low as 1:5.

[Eldariel]

Trying to do a polling, if people would like to be helpful, much appreciated.

So currently late game focused, 45 min+ games are what we as viewers are seeing more and more of. The champion picks seem mostly geared towards huge late game power, and most games seem to hit a point where a single teamfight win for either team will decide the game. What I'm looking for opinions on is this meta. Do you enjoy watching these games, do you feel junglers are still able to carve out useful leads for their team, or do you feel that generally the early kills/drakes are worthless due to how late the games typically go? What would you say the primary cause for this new meta is?


As I said, answer if you wanna be helpful, if you don't, well,, okay.

1) I don't think the "meta" is really universal. It's just many teams being too careful and not trusting their ability to win the game in the midgame without throwing.

2) Of course junglers can carve out useful leads. Early or late, the team with the gold lead usually wins.

3) Primary cause? ADCs are strong would be the easy answer; they spike late. More-so tho, it's just some teams beginning to pick the strong lategame champs (Ryze/Irelia/Kog/Trist/etc.) and other teams countering by picking other strong lategame champs in order to ensure they can win after the inevitable throws. It's worth noting that not everyone plays by those same rules and the teams that don't are having their share of success too so I suspect there's again nothing intrinsically optimal about about the lategame focused games.

4) Sure, I find those long games entertaining to watch. I'm more interested in watching good play than flashy mistake-laden games anyways. Of course, many of those long games are mistake-laden which puts a damper on things but no more so than any other LCS game.

[Winthur]

I think that'd be pretty fun. Once I actually finish this runepage, I'll take you up on that. Though it's worth noting that I'm a very defensive player. My auto attacks on champions vs spells on champion ratio is not 1:2. It might be as low as 1:5.

Autos are a core mechanic for good trading; if you're going to play defensively, better to know how to chip health and not get your health chipped so that you don't end up being zoned.

[ex cathedra]

Movement Speed is Vlad's best laning stat, as well as an incredibly underrated stat in general, especially in any lane where a range disparity exists.

Starting boots and grabbing sorc shoes + amp tome or ruby crystal on your first back gives you the same pen as a haunting guise, while sacrificing the other stats for unparalleled control. Vlad can't sustain a brawl early, so having combat stats is less useful than being able to outpace your opponent and just not get hit.

this is somewhat relevant advice against immobile melee champions, but those matchups aren't so common as to make it generally applicable. boots exist as a niche starring item for vlad, but they aren't adequate against irelia, shyvana, jax, renekton, lulu, kayle, ryze, yasuo, j4, wukong, or quite a few other top laners, not to mention pretty much every mid laner.

[Artanis]

Really? I thought Dignitas was pretty dominating against EG, though they have been on a pretty bad losing streak otherwise.

I'm not sure that dominating EG really counts this split.

[Ionbound]

Look at it from the other side of the argument. Say you both want top. If he can play other lanes and you can't, the only way you can convince him to give you top is by highlighting your FLAWS in other lanes instead of your STRENGTHS, and that's a bad situation to be in. This is why I personally recommend learning how to play at least one champion in every position to a level where you're fine with playing a lane that's not your favorite. Assuming (falsely, but it's convenient for this example, hush) that desire for roles is spread evenly, the odds of no one wanting top is about 40%. Meaning you're going to have to fight for top with someone else 60% of the time. But as I mentioned, that's a false presupposition. The most desired lanes are the solo lanes (mid and top). So practice some other lanes from time to time. You're going to need it when you're not grouped with us.

Yeah, I want to learn how to play other lanes. And I've learned SupportCow pretty well by grouping with you guys. But I hate dealing with learning in Solo Queue, and I feel awful when I try to mid when I group with you because I always get destroyed. It's just frustrating is all. This is, at this point, mostly ranting. Feel free to ignore me.

[PhantomFox]

Yeah, I want to learn how to play other lanes. And I've learned SupportCow pretty well by grouping with you guys. But I hate dealing with learning in Solo Queue, and I feel awful when I try to mid when I group with you because I always get destroyed. It's just frustrating is all. This is, at this point, mostly ranting. Feel free to ignore me.

No that's fine. Generally when learning someone new I take them into bot games until I'm familiar enough to stomp bits and then I'm comfortable enough to take it live.