Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[ryuplaneswalker]

Spoiler

Show

I imagine it will pass when he passes.

*giggles madly*

[Eldan]

Also important to note about the siege of King's Landing: none of the parties involved is native to the city. The Lannisters are from the West, the Starks from the North, the Baratheons from the South. None have held the city for longer than a few years. Baratheon did for a generation or so, but not much more, either, and they still have their own seat.

[hamlet]

Also important to note about the siege of King's Landing: none of the parties involved is native to the city. The Lannisters are from the West, the Starks from the North, the Baratheons from the South. None have held the city for longer than a few years. Baratheon did for a generation or so, but not much more, either, and they still have their own seat.

Add to that the fact that the people have spent the last year being starved, mistreated, and generally miserable and knowing that the lords and knights view them as nothing more than fodder and you've already got a powder keg. Remember the riot where King Bread reigned. The city was already on the verge of blowing up and people were already set to jump ship so to speak when the armies actually arrived. When the entire police force was withdrawn from the city proper and sent to the walls to keep out Stannis, it was like setting a match to it and it's amazing that it didn't actually get worse.

Remember, one of the biggest themes in the books is that when the high ups play the Game of Thrones, no matter who actually wins, the people who are always the losers are the peasants. They're the ones who are dying for this and being abused by it, and so on. Martin, among others, is making a point about the inherent flaws in a Feudal society and the injustices and dangers of extreme wealth and power disparity. Take a look at it through that lens.

Also, keep in mind, after 5 books, we still don't know quite what the Others/White Walkers are. We have suspicions, ideas, and fears, but there's been no confirmation of any kind of true nature. A prevailing theory among some folks I talk to is that they're some weird type of Fairie, the Unseelie so to speak. My friend calls them the counterpart to the Children of the Forest, one a relatively benevolent or at least non-hostile group, the other openly inimical to the social order and way of life of the humans in the world. But again, nobody knows for sure except Mr. Martin.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't trust anything I see in the show worth a damn. It's a completely different animal and I treat it as . . . .well . . . I find it to be garbage, but that's just me. It's not the same universe in my opinion so anything it has to say on the subject is completely off topic to the novels.

[SaintRidley]

You know, I could get used to seeing text in this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, I could get used to seeing text in this thread.

Well, the more you read, the more we can talk about outside of spoilers. Mind you, hamlet did reveal something I'd have spoilered.

GW

[hamlet]

Well, the more you read, the more we can talk about outside of spoilers. Mind you, hamlet did reveal something I'd have spoilered.

GW

Yes, I wrestled with it for a little bit, but in the end, I decided it wasn't really a spoiler not least because nobody except the author is sure what the hell is going on yet and if you're paying attention even at the point where Ridley is in the books, you could have drawn the inference. There's nothing in the text beyond this that flat out reveals it anyway.

Plus, he's mentioned it in his discussions before, though sidereally. And I know I spelled that word wrong . . .

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
Let’s Watch Game of Thrones part one! S01xE01

The Prophet recently signed us up for a free trial of HBO Go, and to commemorate the event we decided we should get on top of watching Game of Thrones. For me, this is great, as it will give me an opportunity to focus less on prediction, and more on considering the adaptation. We plan to make this our new Sunday night show, now that Walking Dead is back on hiatus, so expect an update on this aspect every week or so.

Since this is a television show, the format of these updates will be different. I will not be making predictions, for one thing. I’ll definitely be making observations about cast and characters, especially in these early episodes. So, let’s get to it.

The first scene is very chillingly ripped from the book, and very handily illustrates for us what the Others/White Walkers are. The dead wildings are wights, then, if I’ve got everything straight. Not a terribly clear look at quite a lot of this (this may be due to the largest screen we have for viewing being an iPad, since HBO Go is currently only available in app form).

In short order we begin to become acquainted with many of our other principle characters. One thing I was interested in, coming off the book, was how the show would handle multiple viewpoints. At this point, where everything is relatively contained and close to Winterfell, that’s not too difficult. We have one track following the Starks, one following Daenerys, and something of a track following Tyrion (his is least developed here, but understandably so this early). Things work pretty well right now with this setup. Once people get moving and the story fragments more, though, I’ll be sure to keep an eye on how the show handles transitions between viewpoints.

I will say that I’m pretty pleased with most of the actors. They generally look like they could occupy the role of the character. Jaime Lannister’s not a bad looking guy, and Cersei’s quite the looker too. Joffrey looks like a little weasel, with a perpetual and really annoying squint. Robb and Jon Snow look too much alike and I can’t really tell them apart – I’m looking forward to their separation entirely on the grounds that I’ll stop being confused.

In terms of the acting, things seem pretty good so far. I will note that when actually said out loud, things like “Winter is coming” or “Do you want to wake the dragon” (that one especially) sound rather stupid. Absolutely cornball. I hope that this is kept to a minimum, or at least lesser prominence compared to the book – it works there.

On the nudity, it is HBO. Copious amounts of butts and breasts are to be expected. Given the South Park episode “Titties and Dragons” I had no illusions about what I would see. The chorus of wieners from South Park did lead me to expect more male nudity, though, and thus far we’ve been rather deprived on that front. I expect we’ll see a more equitable division of nudity in the future.

In terms of the aesthetic of the show, it definitely plays on our expectations of what the medieval is supposed to look like. The Hound’s helmet is effective, and the direwolves thus far seem to be portrayed by young Siberian huskies. I’ll be interested in what happens when they get to be too large to be played by a dog, though. I imagine the show’s effects budget will be commensurate to the popularity of the series, and able to sustain some of the more fanciful effects we’ll see down the line.

At the moment, we have just enough to begin to understand some of the characters. Arya is mischievous, Sansa prim, Bran climbs, Jaime and Cersei are getting some twincest going on, King Robert is like a Santa Claus who gives you the gift of a sword in your throat if he’s rebelling against you, Catelyn is a worried mother, Jon’s a bastard and ashamed, Tyrion’s defiantly proud in the face of his disability, Daenerys is uncertain, Khal Drogo is Jason Momoa, and Viserys is really stupid and annoying (and has longer hair than I imagined). It’s not much, but for a single hour trying to pack in quite a bit, it gives a good sort of broad strokes outline to be filled in later.

The best lines came from Tyrion and Jaime. Best uplifting line came from Tyrion, who said that “all dwarves are bastards in their fathers’ eyes,” while Jaime got the best comedic line: “The things I do for love.”

All in all, not a bad start.

[tomandtish]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
Let’s Watch Game of Thrones part one! S01xE01

On the nudity, it is HBO. Copious amounts of butts and breasts are to be expected. Given the South Park episode “Titties and Dragons” I had no illusions about what I would see. The chorus of wieners from South Park did lead me to expect more male nudity, though, and thus far we’ve been rather deprived on that front. I expect we’ll see a more equitable division of nudity in the future.

There's not as much male nudity as that South Park episode implied. Be warned, one character tends to give exposition while gratuitous nudity occurs around them.

Spoiler: Spoiled in case you want the surprise

Show

Littlefinger

[Gnoman]

The first scene is very chillingly ripped from the book, and very handily illustrates for us what the Others/White Walkers are. The dead wildings are wights, then, if I’ve got everything straight. Not a terribly clear look at quite a lot of this (this may be due to the largest screen we have for viewing being an iPad, since HBO Go is currently only available in app form).

It's probably more expensive than it is with an Android device, but there's an easy solution.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/resource...at240600050013

[smuchmuch]

On the nudity, it is HBO. Copious amounts of butts and breasts are to be expected. Given the South Park episode “Titties and Dragons” I had no illusions about what I would see. The chorus of wieners from South Park did lead me to expect more male nudity, though, and thus far we’ve been rather deprived on that front. I expect we’ll see a more equitable division of nudity in the future.

I wouldn't worry. After all : "Wiener is coming"

*cough*

Anyhow interesting to see that you are going to start with series as well. Without spoiling anything, while if memory serves, season 1 is pretty close to the book, changes start happening in later seasons (as is of course innevitable when trying to adapt lots of pages into ten hours seasons) particulary to get better milleage out of some actors and characters. I look forward to read your reactions and analysis on them.

[Sliver]

Wasn't Hodor the only one who had revealed himself? A fake one, but the only reveal I recall...

[ryuplaneswalker]

King Robert is like a Santa Claus who gives you the gift of a sword in your throat if he’s rebelling against you

You mean a Hammer to the chest.

Also, PETER DINKLAGE IS YOUR GOD NOW.

no really, he makes the show.

[hamlet]

Interesting that you'll be watching the show now too.

When you get a moment, rewatch the first episode and pay really close attention. You'll notice that it almost looks like there's two different shows going on. Sean Bean actually looks different in some scenes back to back. That's because there actually were two pilots filmed and in the end, they scrapped the first mostly and refilmed a lot of it, but kept some of the original scenes. Between the two, they changed some of the characterizations slightly and it's interesting to see the evolution of it, I think.

[Malimar]

Wasn't Hodor the only one who had revealed himself? A fake one, but the only reveal I recall...

Pretty sure we see Theon's, too, in one scene with Roz.

Spoiler

Show

And no, I don't mean the sausage.

[Hyena]

Spoiler

Show

That's my favourite gif from the entire series. And I haven't even watched the series!

[Legato Endless]

The Hound’s helmet is effective, and the direwolves thus far seem to be portrayed by young Siberian huskies. I’ll be interested in what happens when they get to be too large to be played by a dog, though. I imagine the show’s effects budget will be commensurate to the popularity of the series, and able to sustain some of the more fanciful effects we’ll see down the line.

Not really. It's better to assume this is an ambitious project which can't quite reach what it wants to, thanks to several factors such as the logistical nightmare of shooting a series in various locations separated by thousands of miles over a much longer duration than any film. The wolves look rather less authentic than the dragons at times, and neither appears as often as one would they were this adapted into...pretty much any other medium. Understandable, given the constraints, but best not to get one's hopes to far up in this area.

[An Enemy Spy]

The show is roughly as good as the books in my opinion. Better in some areas, worse in others. It tends to be more kill happy than the books are, and certain subplots are taken away and new ones put in. Some characters fill roles that other characters had, Asha's name is Yara for no reason I can think of. Most of the changes make sense, which is what an adaptation should strive for.

[Logic]

The show is roughly as good as the books in my opinion. Better in some areas, worse in others. It tends to be more kill happy than the books are, and certain subplots are taken away and new ones put in. Some characters fill roles that other characters had, Asha's name is Yara for no reason I can think of. Most of the changes make sense, which is what an adaptation should strive for.

The show runners thought that keeping her named Asha would get her confused with Osha, hence the name change.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The show runners thought that keeping her named Asha would get her confused with Osha, hence the name change.

One Steve Limit, indeed. Same reason why Robert the Boy in the Eire is named Robin in the TV series.

GW

[An Enemy Spy]

One Steve Limit, indeed. Same reason why Robert the Boy in the Eire is named Robin in the TV series.

GW

I started the show before the book so when I got to the Vale, I just read Robert as Robin. Took until my second read through of the series to realize it was Robert the whole time, and that's including Book 4 when he has a more prominent role.

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
A Storm of Swords part four! ~300-~400!

Here’s the beginning of the middle of the book, and where things start kicking into high gear. I have a feeling nothing’s going to let up for a while, so it’s time for the rollercoaster to hit some of its early loops and twists. Onward!

Arya: It occurs to me to wonder what might happen if the King’s men discover Gendry is Robert’s son. Would they hold him up as a candidate for king? It seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened. They seem pretty uninterested in him for the moment, but it seems like the sort of reason he would be brought to them in a narrative sense. We only get a glimpse of Lady Smallwood here, but she’s wonderfully fleshed out in just this little moment we spend with her.

Daenerys: I’m going to combine both Dany chapters from this section in the interest of a cohesive comment upon both.

We enter the world of interpreters yet again here, as Dany pretends to be reliant on translation in order to conduct her business – which returns me to the first book and how I felt there was a compelling point to be made about translation and multilingualism through her. She’s gotten shrewd, and it’s good. One of the best things about being multilingual is that nobody needs to know until you choose to tell them.

There’s a great deal of power to be realized in being multilingual, whether it comes from being the translator (as Dany was between Drogo and Viserys, which allowed her to alternately protect or condemn her brother as she felt necessary without bruising either’s ego in the process) or by being privy to the truth behind the lies an opposing negotiator tells you through their interpreter. Dany without the knowledge of High Valyrian would not have had any luck with this negotiation. She’d have been robbed blind if she took any deal. In many ways it is the translator, through access to all the information, who is the most powerful person in a negotiation. La Malinche, the translator for Cortés in the conquest of the Aztec triple alliance, is considered to this day to have been a bigger mover and shaker in the colonization effort than any of the Castilians was. Multilingualism and translation are very potent avenues of power. Kraznys seems like he would have overlooked that, and Dany didn’t need one; I’m looking forward to seeing what happens with the interpreter, though. In a situation where her services are actually necessary, how would she choose to exercise that power?

So the moment she mentioned giving a dragon for the Unsullied, I knew she had something up her sleeve that she had formulated as a result of holding back that she knew what Kraznys was saying. It took me a few pages to cotton on to the general shape of the plan, but by the time she unleashed the dragons I was not surprised. I’m proud to see how far she’s come. The threes don’t say anything about Dany having to be the one betrayed, but I don’t think this will count as one of the treasons

Bran: One of the best and most endearing things in this chapter is how blatantly Bran tries to offer his own feelings through Hodor – he doesn’t want the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree to be a love story, because Hodor (and totally not Bran, not at all) doesn’t like them so much.

The story’s interesting. Stories within stories always do tend to carry some force; Beowulf, for instance, contains a few stories within it which offer a bunch of interesting foreshadowing and reference to stories we’ve long since lost. Even as this story is told, Bran asks for parts to be skipped, or Meera alludes to things Bran asks about as other stories for other times. The skill with which Martin builds the storyscape around his fictional world is exceptional

What’s interesting to me about this story right now is precisely the thing Bran finds stupid about it; in fact, the fact that he finds it stupid is a clue to its importance. The story is not a tale of revenge, of victory taken by force, but something of a demonstration of a Rooseveltian “speak softly, but carry a big stick” ethos sort of tale. The Knight of the Laughing Tree soundly triumphs over the other knights whose squires act so dishonorably, but he shows mercy. His capability has already been proven, he need not humiliate them any further than to deliver his warning.

Bran, of course, wants direct action, lady-wooing, and all the clichés. That’s fine – they’re clichés because they work, after all. But he’s missing the point. This is a story about certain qualities, including mercy and proportionate response which are so lacking in this world, and Bran needs to learn from these. Robb won’t be king forever at the rate he’s going, and Bran may have to take a role of leadership. He has much to learn.

Davos: Our Onion Knight is in a cell, where he is visited by exactly the person he wants dead. What we get out of this is some very interesting stuff.

She offers Davos the chance to come spend his life’s fire on her in her chambers so she can birth a new shadow. Her philosophy of shadows is interesting; one could as easily argue that the shadow is the strong remnant of what remains when the darkness is attacked by the light. It is not light which births shadows, but shadows which resist and stand strong against the searing fire of light.

Derrida would have fun turning her dichotomies against her and undoing them entirely, but I don’t feel much like bothering with that. What she presents, though, is the interesting duality she subscribes to: R’hllor and the Lord of Darkness. Opposites in her mind, but symbiotic in mine. Light has no meaning without darkness to disperse and the murk has meaning only in its contest with the light. These two are not opposite, but one and the same. The shadows she touts as born from the light are not born ex nihilo, not via parthenogenesis, but from the union of light and darkness. Melisandre, whether she knows it or not, is a tool for both and not the pure servant of the light she pretends or believes herself to be.

She names Stannis Azor Ahai. That’d be impressive if he had anything to do with dragons so far. Dany’s dragons were born before the red star, but right now she’s the closest fit for the prophecy “when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”

But, Davos gets a cellmate now. Alester Florent – who clearly has no notion of what a dungeon jail looks or smells like – appears utterly useless for the moment. He does bring news, though, because he’s jailed for attempting to forge a peace between Stannis and Joffrey without the king’s leave. Only the Florents remain to Stannis, and all the rest are dead or sided with Joffrey. Hard to blame him for trying to salvage something, but it really shows how completely unaware of the people he’s working with he really is.

Jon: Jon Snow is still super prudish about sex. Ghost is on a mission of warning to the Wall, while Jon has to give information on the defenses. Ygritte is fond of telling Jon that he knows nothing. Mostly because he knows nothing. I like that she calls him a maid. It’s not often you see that word applied to men.

Sansa: Married to Tyrion. Sansa does recognize something advantageous to this: “He is not so bad as the rest of them,” she tells herself. She’s right about that, sort of.

Tyrion’s immediate response, to offer her something of an out, is perhaps the nicest thing he could have done in the situation. Being high status carries a number of constraints – constraints that in my opinion seem absolutely absurd, but real enough nonetheless. His threatening to geld Joffrey was quite amusing.

As Sandor noted, Sansa parrots many of the old cliché phrases well. “Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” she tells Tyrion. Perhaps Tyrion will teach her how to actually make use of the place society has forced her into and actually turn courtesy into her armor.

At least Tyrion has the basics of consent figured out. That’s pretty good, considering the world he lives in. There’s some respect for Sansa’s autonomy as a human there, and that’s a good sign. I wonder if they’ll be able to come to some sort of agreement and actually work together.

Arya: Arya’s tenderness in making sure the caged men have a drink of water is powerful. Even as she’s questioning what kind of people they are, if they’re her brother’s men and what that means for her brother’s reign, she still feels that need to bring them water. She’s practical, and willing to fight, but she’s not cruel.

We have Tansy. Almost certainly the Tansy Lord Hoster spoke of back toward the beginning of the book, the one Catelyn wants to find. A dead child, but others will come – trueborn – he mentioned. The connection isn’t entirely clear here yet, but a picture is forming.

Another wolf dream for Arya, running with her pack. We’ll see you soon, Nymeria.

The real question here is just who is it we see in the cage? I’m thinking the Hound. Definitely not Gregor.

Things of importance:
* The Hound (?) is captured.
* Tyrion and Sansa are now married.
* Dany has an army of Unsullied. And they do seem to perform as advertized.
* Melisandre gave us a big, heaping helping of her theology to puzzle over.
* Melisandre can also see people’s intentions.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Davos will have to accept Melisandre’s invitation eventually if he wants to get out of that cell. The thing he has to do is figure out how to act without intention, to exist without forethought, to walk without rhythm.
* Sansa will find Tyrion to be, if not an ally to her cause, not unsympathetic. She will learn things from him that will make her a stronger person.

Dany’s Threes:
Three heads: Three identities. Mother of dragons and child of storms are obvious – the third, though… I’ll have to go look things over again, but perhaps Azor Ahai is a possibility. Of course, this one’s most open and could have several meanings.
She thinks: the three ships she’s naming after the great dragons.
Jorah thinks: Dany and two husbands (him as one).

Three fires: life, death, love. There’s the obvious fire of Drogo’s funeral – the fire of life. The other two will come. No predictions as yet.

Three mounts: To bed, to dread, to love. Drogo was to bed. She will have another to dread (Jorah if he turns out to be a treason), and if the Jon Snow as secret Targaryen and match to her thing works out he’s the one to love.

Three treasons: For blood, for gold, for love. I think Ser Jorah might betray her out of love. For blood, I don’t know, though, because I’m starting to think the three treasons might all be future events from the point of the vision – as in nothing before the vision will count. Depending on what happens with Illyrio Mopatis, we might have a winner for gold.
She thinks: Mirri Maz Duur for blood.

Azor Ahai: “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”

Not Stannis. Dany’s possible. This one will take some time to begin putting up candidates and testing them.

[Lethologica]

Azor Ahai's birth.
Smoke and salt. Fire and tears? Um.
Melisandre's wrong.

I just felt like it was time for a haiku okay

[Legato Endless]

Azor Ahai's birth.
Smoke and salt. Fire and tears? Um.
Melisandre's wrong.

I just felt like it was time for a haiku okay

Spoiler: Obviously...

Show

Sizzled smoking arm,
Great future, dragon binder.
Tis Victarion.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Obviously...

Show

Sizzled smoking arm,
Great future, dragon binder.
Tis Victarion.

Spoiler

Show

Euron found the horn,
But he's the wrong ironborn.
It's Theon instead.

[Logic]

Spoiler: Obviously...

Show

Sizzled smoking arm,
Great future, dragon binder.
Tis Victarion.

Spoiler

Show

I disagree. I am operating under the assumption that Azor Ahai and The Prince that was Promised are not one and the same. Also that R'hllor, the Lord of Light, is not a divine benevolent deity, but one borne of darkness. Just reading the story of Azor Ahai forging Lightbringer tells me that Stannis is a better counterpart than anyone else yet mentioned.

I do think that Victarion could be Azor Ahai, but my money is on Stannis as the eventual villain of the whole thing.

[TechnOkami]

Screw all these theories.
I'm just gonna keep waiting.
Until the book's out.

[Lethologica]

Screw all these theories.
I'm just gonna keep waiting.
Until the book's out.

Your prerogative
But I just gotta tell ya

Spoiler

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Sam's the Promised Prince.

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler

Show

Euron found the horn,
But he's the wrong ironborn.
It's Theon instead.

Spoiler: When the wait is this long, crazed theory crafting is all we have...

Show

A golden skull smiles,
for blackened Mummer's dragon.
The Young Griff is false.

Though I did just pick up the World Book from the library.

[Pokonic]

Spoilers ahoy.

Spoiler

Show

Hodor Hodor Hodor

The Prince That Was Promised

Hodor Hodor Hodor

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: When the wait is this long, crazed theory crafting is all we have...

Show

A golden skull smiles,
for blackened Mummer's dragon.
The Young Griff is false.

Though I did just pick up the World Book from the library.

Spoiler

Show

Incest is common
Among dragons, not lions.
False golden-haired twins.