Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[hamlet]

Can't say much unspoilered for fear of . . . well . . . spoilers.

I think you're still reading here in the wrong genre. At the very least, keep in mind the differing sizes in armies. Tywin has, as I recall, dang near 100k. Rob has less than half that. Tywin also sits in what is, for all intents and purposes, the biggest and baddest castle in the kingdom. It's not like walking into Mordor. You just don't do it!

Fascinated to see how your opinion of things morphs over the course of events.

[SaintRidley]

The real question though is who gets to be Khaleesi?

Hiccup. He's pretty enough, too.

[Tev]

Wasn't it more like 100k+ Renly, 40-50k Tywin and 15-25 Robb? I don't remember Stannis, I guess no more than 10k.

Also while I think the first book was very predictable, only handful of events from now on will be so easy to guess. GRRM loves introducing new things late into the story and delaying inevitable developments forever.

Spoiler: SPOILER!

Show

I was predicting death of that brat since the end of the first book and he just couldn't get himself to die for next book and a half . . . damn you Martin for not writing the stuff I want to happen!

[Aedilred]

Stannis has a paltry army, only a couple of thousand iirc, since his only support is from the Crownlands islands, and almost nothing from the mainland. Tywin's and Robb's are probably more evenly-matched than it might seem in ACoK - Robb has his twenty thousand from the North, as well as the army of the Riverlands, but Tywin's is largely in one piece and in one place while Robb's is scattered all over the place with several divided command centres and little easy communication betwen them, and probably quite a lot of his available army is still in the North and has yet to mobilise.

Renly has the biggest, of course, at around 100,000.

That's not accounting for quality, which is difficult to assess. It seems the Westerlands troops are pretty good, but logic and reputation would suggest the Reach and the Vale have some good knights, and the North seems to have quite a high quality of non-knightly troops.

[Legato Endless]

Yeah Tywin and Rob are probably numerically equal at the start of ACoK. Tywin started with something like 40-50 thousand, but he lost half his force when Jaime was captured. Then there's the losses he took in the forced march. That said, along with the fortress, his forces are much better equipped than Rob's and I think its mentioned the Westerland's can afford a small continent of their own professional soldiers and mercenaries whose only job is fighting.

[Pokonic]

That's not accounting for quality, which is difficult to assess. It seems the Westerlands troops are pretty good, but logic and reputation would suggest the Reach and the Vale have some good knights, and the North seems to have quite a high quality of non-knightly troops.

The North also has a good supply of seasoned fighters due to fighting off constant wilding incursions. It's not even a matter of quality so much as prior experience in fighting, to some degree.

[Gnome Alone]

The North's got, like, level TWO Fighters. Bam.

[TechnOkami]

The North's got, like, level TWO Fighters. Bam.

That's two whole feats folks. Wait no, THREE since they're human! Man, think of the early game builds. Of course Tarley decided to troll everyone and put all his points into Constitution and Intelligence, dumping Dexterity.

[Tev]

Yeah Tywin and Rob are probably numerically equal at the start of ACoK. Tywin started with something like 40-50 thousand, but he lost half his force when Jaime was captured.

Well that "half" likely got scattered a lot, so I wouldn't count it as entirely lost.
And Robb had casualties too in that battle. + he sacrificed diversion force (5k? I don't remember) to meet Tywin. So Lannisters still should have solid numerical advantage.

Btw this thread makes me want to go and spend two weeks rereading aSoIaF.

[Aedilred]

Well that "half" likely got scattered a lot, so I wouldn't count it as entirely lost.
And Robb had casualties too in that battle. + he sacrificed diversion force (5k? I don't remember) to meet Tywin. So Lannisters still should have solid numerical advantage.

Btw this thread makes me want to go and spend two weeks rereading aSoIaF.

While in the show he just threw away two thousand troops on that, in the book he separated his infantry and cavalry, and left the infantry as a sizeable army to meet Tywin under the command of Roose Bolton. They lost the battle but retreated in good order, so casualties wouldn't have been enormous.

Casualties at the Whispering Wood and Battle of the Camps would meanwhile have been pretty minor: at the Whispering Wood the Lannister numbers were pretty small and it seems most of the damage was done by Jaime's rampage through Robb's bodyguard. The Battle of the Camps was hardly a battle at all, so while people were doubtless lost, probably not in any significant numbers.

[Tev]

Yeah that sounds pretty accurate. I forgot a lot of stuff, especially retreat of Roose Bolton and his force . . . I really need to re-read those books

[Legato Endless]

. The Battle of the Camps was hardly a battle at all, so while people were doubtless lost, probably not in any significant numbers.

The Camps was a massacre thanks to the terrain advantage splitting the Lannister army in three parts.. A force of four thousand managed to retreat, of twelve thousand infantry and two to three thousand cavalry. And as with the woods, one of the armies started the battle completely closed off, between the rivers and the castle, rendering escape impossible. The wiki estimates casualties of at least 8,000.

[hamlet]

It wasn't a massacre, it was a route. There's a difference and it was specifically mentioned as one IIRC.

[SaintRidley]

They may have been on a route, but the battle was a rout.

[hamlet]

They may have been on a route, but the battle was a rout.

Damnable auto correct function!

[Aedilred]

The Camps was a massacre thanks to the terrain advantage splitting the Lannister army in three parts.. A force of four thousand managed to retreat, of twelve thousand infantry and two to three thousand cavalry. And as with the woods, one of the armies started the battle completely closed off, between the rivers and the castle, rendering escape impossible. The wiki estimates casualties of at least 8,000.

To clarify, all my references to casualties were to Northerners specifically: obviously the Lannister losses were significant in both battles either strategically or numerically.

[pita]

Damnable auto correct function!

What the duck are you talking about?

[SaintRidley]

First week of the semester is behind us. I'll get an update to you before Monday. Preview: I love Asha and would be kind of completely okay if she burned everything to the ground.

[Math_Mage]

First week of the semester is behind us. I'll get an update to you before Monday. Preview: I love Asha and would be kind of completely okay if she burned everything to the ground.

You mean drown everything in the sea? :D

i'll show myself out

[SaintRidley]

You mean drown everything in the sea? :D

i'll show myself out

Spoiler

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[Dienekes]

And then everything burned down, fell over, and sank into the sea.

[hamlet]

And then everything burned down, fell over, and sank into the sea.

But the third one . . .

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
A Clash of Kings part four! ~300-~400!

And it looks like right now I’m in that weird part right in the middle where things are just about to happen, but don’t. No worries – things begin to go back into gear in these chapters. And now that the semester’s begun, I’m going to have a lot of time to chew on things as they do so.

Tyrion: I’m not entirely sure I like where this wildfire idea is going. I don’t see it going well for whoever’s on the receiving end. But then again, hard to say who’s going to be on the receiving end. In other news, Robb’s messenger to the Lannisters arrived. They don’t like his terms, but yeah, that was a given. The doomsday preacher brought up fire as well. Hmm… Time to think on this fire thing. And it turns out Cersei is human after all – or at least, she has something resembling a heart.

Bran: He remembers, but nothing coming of that yet. Oh well. Bran does a good job playing lordling, and the Crannogmen visitors seem interesting. And yet another dream where Bran sees through Summer’s eyes – I figure Rickon can too. Still not sure how this ability will pay off for them, but I think Meera and her brother will be instrumental in making this aspect of Bran’s character development pay off. Imagine if he could link with Summer while awake.

Catelyn: Catelyn treats with Renly – and I have to say, things with Renly are… interesting, to say the least. He looks like Robert, but acts nothing like him. Playing at tournaments on his glacial march north seems perhaps a touch naïve. Brienne of Tarth seems quite cool. Oh, and we meet Sam Tarly’s dad – he’s a bit of a douche, as we knew from Sam. Between the rainbow guard and seating Loras and not his wife at his right hand, there’s not really any subtlety here about Renly, I think. And that’s good. Selmy’s out there as a wildcard. And then Stannis shows up.

Jon: Hey, remember what I said last time?

I’m beginning to think this Mance Rayder guy is either gathering the Wildings somewhere deep up there, or he’s dead and there pretty much aren’t too many people left.

Guess it’s the first one. I was half expecting it to be the second, though. The real important thing here is the stay with this Craster fellow. Now, I don’t much imagine he’s terribly important, but that daughter/wife of his, Gilly, on the other hand. Did she do that freezing the world thing so she could beg help of Jon? Seems like it. I’ve got no idea whether Jon just royally screwed up by following his oath here or not.

Theon: The straight dope here is that Asha is every bit as cool as Theon thinks he is, and then some. Let me count the ways. She completely messes with his mind just because she can. She give him the inspiration for his ship’s name: Sea Bitch. Bitchin’ name for a ship, I tell you what. She pretends she’s pregnant just to mess with Theon more. She can banter wittily way better than anyone else in the entire story, except maybe Tyrion, and if the two of them ever met the world would implode from the sheer awesomeness. Theon thinks he’s playing her, but she’s playing him so well he actually believes he’s in control of the situation. He gets all grabby, she gets slappy. She gets him to reveal every thought he has about the other potential successors to the throne. She gets him to “fill her pretty head” with tales of war and Winterfell. Oh Theon, if you weren’t so dimwitted you might realize that it’s you who had the pretty head. And then she embarrasses him at the feast, just because she can. And while Theon gets to harry fishermen, she gets to try for a castle.

Asha’s awesome and Theon’s a fool, Q.E.D.

Things of importance:
* Adding Theon to the list of fools who say things that might be interesting.
* Asha and Brienne are pretty cool.
* Add Wildfire to the chain under Tyrion’s machinations.
* The Lannisters are going to send a different set of peace offerings to Robb.
* Renly’s offering to Robb is simple: Renly gets to be the king for real, and Robb can call himself King in the North if he really wants to.
* The Iron Islands are about to muck a whole lot of things up.
* So’s Stannis.
* And Selmy’s still out there.
* And that doomsday preacher in King’s Landing. Between the burning sword, the wildfire, and that guy, I get the feeling Wildfire will be involved in making the real burning sword.
*Still not enough knowledge on this Mance Rayder guy to say much – but if he’s preparing to do what the Old Bear thinks he’s preparing to do, it’s just going to be a bloodbath down south and by the time Dany gets there there won’t be anything for her to be Queen of.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Asha’s going to die eventually, before Theon, and I will be sad because she’s much cooler than he is.
* Stannis and Renly look ready to blitz each other out of contention. Dumbasses.

[HeadlessMermaid]

The real important thing here is the stay with this Craster fellow. Now, I don’t much imagine he’s terribly important, but that daughter/wife of his, Gilly, on the other hand. Did she do that freezing the world thing so she could beg help of Jon? Seems like it. I’ve got no idea whether Jon just royally screwed up by following his oath here or not.

Sorry, what? What's this "freezing the world" thing that Gilly did? I don't remember anything like it.

[SaintRidley]

Unless I really misread things, the world (or at least, Craster's keep) froze completely when she went to Jon for help. Like, grass and cloaks and stuff all frozen over.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Unless I really misread things, the world (or at least, Craster's keep) froze completely when she went to Jon for help. Like, grass and cloaks and stuff all frozen over.

OK, I found the passage, and I don't think there's anything supernatural going on.

He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. Ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he'd hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal.
The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

I read that as a poetic description of what happens in a forest in the [equivalent of] winter, when the snow and/or morning dew freezes: crystals are formed, and stuff gets frozen. Gilly just happened to be there, waiting for Jon to wake up. At least, that's what I understood. :)

[Math_Mage]

Yeah, that's GRRM's way of saying "It's really f***ing cold this morning."

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Spoiler alert: Gilly is Elsa.

[Seerow]

Spoiler alert: Gilly is Elsa.

Gilly is coming.

[Killer Angel]

I’m not entirely sure I like where this wildfire idea is going. I don’t see it going well for whoever’s on the receiving end.

well, isn't that the main reason to exist for an alchemical weapon?