Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[Killer Angel]

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I will say, if L+R=J is true, I will be absolutely furious with Lyanna and Rhaegar for plunging their kingdom into a needless war just because they wanted snusnu. Idiots.

Henry the 8th would be proud of them.

[Legato Endless]

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What do you mean by this? After reading all of the books, I have not read anything that suggests Robert pushed for action for anything other than his own wounded pride and little else.

Ned rescued his sister, while Robert stayed behind to fight Rhaeger rather than go rescue his "love". I put that in quotes, because based on Robert's own actions, he didn't give a d*** about Ned's sister and he clearly didn't have anything more than lust for her.

Ned himself believed that Lyanna was totally uninterested in Robert, he almost completely says so somewhere in the first book.

If what happened to Lyanna mattered so much to Robert, why did he not lead the expedition to the tower of joy and leave the fighting to Ned to handle? Because he didn't care about Lyanna at all. He stays to fight Rhaeger while Ned goes off for the rescue attempt. Robert could have passed command on without issues, his fellows would have understood.

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Lyanna didn't care for Robert at all its true, but Robert did feel very strongly about her. Robert and Eddard disagreed about the killing of the royal children, and the fight was so incensed it apparently drove them apart for some time. This also ignores that while Robert was a failure of a king, he was a charismatic figurehead, and was instrumental in drumming up support from various lords to fight against the ruling dynasty. Why Eddard went with only 6 men to the tower of joy doesn't make any sense to me either. I've got nothing there.

Game of thrones chapter 12 for one example:

The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.[9] ”
– Robert, to Eddard Stark

Cersei's hatred of Robert is based primarily of when on their wedding night he whispered Lyanna's name their consummation. He dreams of killing Rhaegar in his sleep. He curses that Rhaegar got her and he didn't. It's kind of an obsession for him.

[Dienekes]

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What do you mean by this? After reading all of the books, I have not read anything that suggests Robert pushed for action for anything other than his own wounded pride and little else.

Ned rescued his sister, while Robert stayed behind to fight Rhaeger rather than go rescue his "love". I put that in quotes, because based on Robert's own actions, he didn't give a d*** about Ned's sister and he clearly didn't have anything more than lust for her.

Ned himself believed that Lyanna was totally uninterested in Robert, he almost completely says so somewhere in the first book.

If what happened to Lyanna mattered so much to Robert, why did he not lead the expedition to the tower of joy and leave the fighting to Ned to handle? Because he didn't care about Lyanna at all. He stays to fight Rhaeger while Ned goes off for the rescue attempt. Robert could have passed command on without issues, his fellows would have understood.

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You're missing some points.

Tower of Joy happened after the Trident. Robert was apparently recuperating from his wounds.

Also we are given evidence that he was a commander and diplomat and not just a warrior, namely the analysis of his campaign in Davos chapters when he's talking with Edryk Storm and listening in on the lessons.

[Legato Endless]

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The other factor is we don't know when Lyanna's whereabouts were discovered. Initially she simply vanished, carried off by Rhaegar to parts unknown. Robert thought he'd raped her. Then at some point, possibly after the sack of King's Landing, Eddard learned where she was.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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I think you've got that backwards. Cersei was the one forced into marriage. In this respect, I feel like she and Sansa have a lot in common.

Robert's mistake was biting off more than he could chew. I'll point out that he chose to lead a rebellion against Aerys Targaryen. He did this of his own volition, though he had good cause.

Still, kingdoms don't run themselves; George RR Martin has demonstrated that well enough. Aerys Targaryen, raving mad he may have been, at least knew how to turn a profit. Robert's reckless tendencies served him well in battle, but they did not make for a wise king. I think he had the best of intentions coming into the throne, but as I believe one character points out, he soon discovered he couldn't solve all of his problems with a warhammer.

Like you said, he was a warrior, not a ruler.

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Both were forced into it, the idea for them to marry was the idea John Arryan and Tywin Lannister, John wanted to tie the Lannister's directly to Robert through marriage Tywin wanted to put his family next in line for the throne.

Aka - Ned really should have taken the Throne, Cersei should have gotten shipped off to somewhere Jaime is not and that kid should have married a Stark in order to tie everything together in a neat little package instead of the whole "Put the guy who is obviously not good at it on the throne" idea, it is not like they did not just overthrow an entire family in a revolution. The only two folks who would have a fit over it would be, Stannis who is a Doo Doo head..and Ned himself, but we saw where not being on the throne got him.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

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Cersei's hatred of Robert is based primarily of when on their wedding night he whispered Lyanna's name their consummation. He dreams of killing Rhaegar in his sleep. He curses that Rhaegar got her and he didn't. It's kind of an obsession for him.

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Uh, no, it's a lot more than that. Such as coming to bed drunk and forcing himself on her? Multiple times? Their relationship was far from a healthy one.

[Legato Endless]

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Uh, no, it's a lot more than that. Such as coming to bed drunk and forcing himself on her? Multiple times? Their relationship was far from a healthy one.

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Oh, certainly. His striking her whenever his temper flared would be reason enough. His knocking the teeth out of her son. His lack of faithfulness. But all of these are secondary to her. When Ned asks her why she hates him, she doesn't bring any of that up. She names one thing. The day he spit all over her pride.

[tomandtish]

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Oh, certainly. His striking her whenever his temper flared would be reason enough. His knocking the teeth out of her son. His lack of faithfulness. But all of these are secondary to her. When Ned asks her why she hates him, she doesn't bring any of that up. She names one thing. The day he spit all over her pride.

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Well, that's probably when she started hating him, and things went even more downhill from there (not that it excuses his behavior). If that one incident hadn't happened, they might have had the typical arranged marriage, each politely doing their duty and finding their true pleasure elsewhere. But because of that it becomes much more vicious, because it gradually becomes true hate.

Robert's biggest problem is that he's a war leader, not a king. He's at his best (and he says so himself) when he has someone to fight. Winning the war was easy for him (in that he knew what he needed to do and how to do it). Winning the peace is something he doesn't understand.

You know, looking back at him, there's really only two categories of people with him: those he loves and those he fights. If you aren't one, you are the other. And if you don't love them and aren't allowed to fight them, then he has no idea how to handle them.

[Aedilred]

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Well, that's probably when she started hating him, and things went even more downhill from there (not that it excuses his behavior). If that one incident hadn't happened, they might have had the typical arranged marriage, each politely doing their duty and finding their true pleasure elsewhere. But because of that it becomes much more vicious, because it gradually becomes true hate.

Robert's biggest problem is that he's a war leader, not a king. He's at his best (and he says so himself) when he has someone to fight. Winning the war was easy for him (in that he knew what he needed to do and how to do it). Winning the peace is something he doesn't understand.

You know, looking back at him, there's really only two categories of people with him: those he loves and those he fights. If you aren't one, you are the other. And if you don't love them and aren't allowed to fight them, then he has no idea how to handle them.

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There does seem to be some middle ground in there. In terms of people he loves, really that's a very small number: Ned, Jon Arryn, Lynna, and possibly some of his kids, but by no means all of them. The one he seems to show most affection for is probably Mya (perhaps because she was the eldest, and the one he spent most time with?) He seems fond of Edric, but can't be bothered to do anything about it.

There does seem to be a smaller group of people who he doesn't love per se but can cope with and in some cases seems to like well enough: his brothers most notably. I'd like to hear a bit more about the relationship between Robert and Tyrion, actually. But it's an astute observation all the same.

It's difficult to tell what would have happened in Cersei and Robert's relationship had Lyanna not been the third person in it. All things considered, I don't think it would have made a lasting difference. Cersei would have become disillusioned with Robert soon enough, I think, and would probably have started sleeping with Jaime again. But perhaps they wouldn't have hated each other quite as much as they did; she might not have aborted his children either.

A more interesting question, maybe, is what would have happened had Robert and Cersei each got to marry the person they (thought they) really wanted: Lyanna and Rhaegar respectively. That one's pretty difficult to call.

[Grinner]

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I will say, if L+R=J is true, I will be absolutely furious with Lyanna and Rhaegar for plunging their kingdom into a needless war just because they wanted snusnu. Idiots.

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I'm clearly missing some information, judging from the ongoing discussion, but if this means what I think it means, it changes everything. It alters the entire trajectory of the series.

It also means SaintRidley is psychic.

[Math_Mage]

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Both were forced into it, the idea for them to marry was the idea John Arryan and Tywin Lannister, John wanted to tie the Lannister's directly to Robert through marriage Tywin wanted to put his family next in line for the throne.

Aka - Ned really should have taken the Throne, Cersei should have gotten shipped off to somewhere Jaime is not and that kid should have married a Stark in order to tie everything together in a neat little package instead of the whole "Put the guy who is obviously not good at it on the throne" idea, it is not like they did not just overthrow an entire family in a revolution. The only two folks who would have a fit over it would be, Stannis who is a Doo Doo head..and Ned himself, but we saw where not being on the throne got him.

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A few points:
-Ned doesn't have the claim to the throne that Robert does, with Targaryen blood from his father's mother.
-Ned has a wife, so cannot unite the kingdoms through marriage the way Robert did.
-Ned's honor would have made an open enemy of the Lannisters, which is hardly better than what happened to Robert.
-Littlefinger might have been less influential, but Varys' scheme would have proceeded with little difference.
-Fundamentally, I don't think Ned was any more suited to rule than Robert. Robert is blind to responsibility, but Ned is blind to intrigue. They are the warrior and the knight, not the crown.

[Legato Endless]

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I'm clearly missing some information, judging from the ongoing discussion, but if this means what I think it means, it changes everything. It alters the entire trajectory of the series.

It also means SaintRidley is psychic.

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Ah, it's always fun seeing people introduced to that part of the backstory and watching the gears turn.

For elaboration, here's a link from the wiki:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

[Landis963]

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A few points:
-Ned doesn't have the claim to the throne that Robert does, with Targaryen blood from his father's mother.
-Ned has a wife, so cannot unite the kingdoms through marriage the way Robert did.
-Ned's honor would have made an open enemy of the Lannisters, which is hardly better than what happened to Robert.
-Littlefinger might have been less influential, but Varys' scheme would have proceeded with little difference.
-Fundamentally, I don't think Ned was any more suited to rule than Robert. Robert is blind to responsibility, but Ned is blind to intrigue. They are the warrior and the knight, not the crown.

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Why not put Jon Arryn on the throne, then? Varys mentioned that he "disdained the game," as Ned did, but he figured out the marriage scheme so clearly he had some savvy.

Also, does this count as a "proper" GITP read-through thread now?

[russdm]

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Cersei's hatred of Robert is based primarily of when on their wedding night he whispered Lyanna's name their consummation.

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I think the reasoning is mainly Cersei just lying off her Arse here. There was little reason for her to be angry about what happened especially since Robert was drunk. Blaming some dead woman instead of replacing her in his heart sounds exactly like trashy Cersei. She just wanted a justification on killing Robert anyway and made it up.

Given how Cersei is shown to think (Or not, she lacks serious skills here), she would have made up some excuse and the statement sounds more like a way to bury a blade in Ned's honor more than because it is an understandable excuse. Blaming Robert's mention of Lyanna sounds very much like someone with control issues.

I don't feel pity for Cersei at all over this, because she chooses to go about it in a completely absurd fashion. She also makes sure to kill every last bastard child that Robert has, while herself producing kids via her own brother; this same woman complains that Robert has feelings for some dead woman and that is supposed to make it right or even justified?

Sorry, Cersei, but you are a monster and you raised a monster kid. Oh, and Tywin was far smarter than by a long shot.

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It's difficult to tell what would have happened in Cersei and Robert's relationship had Lyanna not been the third person in it. All things considered, I don't think it would have made a lasting difference. Cersei would have become disillusioned with Robert soon enough, I think, and would probably have started sleeping with Jaime again. But perhaps they wouldn't have hated each other quite as much as they did; she might not have aborted his children either.

A more interesting question, maybe, is what would have happened had Robert and Cersei each got to marry the person they (thought they) really wanted: Lyanna and Rhaegar respectively. That one's pretty difficult to call.

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Cersei only wanted Jaime and her father had tried to set up an arranged marriage with Rhaegar. There are no indications that Cersei loved or desired the prince.

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A few points:
-Ned doesn't have the claim to the throne that Robert does, with Targaryen blood from his father's mother.
-Ned has a wife, so cannot unite the kingdoms through marriage the way Robert did.
-Ned's honor would have made an open enemy of the Lannisters, which is hardly better than what happened to Robert.
-Littlefinger might have been less influential, but Varys' scheme would have proceeded with little difference.
-Fundamentally, I don't think Ned was any more suited to rule than Robert. Robert is blind to responsibility, but Ned is blind to intrigue. They are the warrior and the knight, not the crown.

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Despite whoever was king, the Hand should have been Tywin no matter what. Jon Arryn was the completely wrong choice here and its not likely that Tywin wouldn't have figured out the incest as easily as Ned did. Plus Tywin would have kept the kingdom running better.

Its clear by the end of book 5 that Jon Arryn had no skills at being Hand, and he should have been replaced with Tywin before Robert died. Instead we get Ned, who isn't any better than Arryn was. Tywin was good and should have been chosen. The fact he wasn't is rather stupid.

Something I want answered...

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Did Tywin know about Rhaeger's friend Jon switching out Aegon? If so, did he choose to say nothing in the belief that Aegon would overthrow Robert? Did Tywin actually care or did he just not know about it?

Why is Cersei still alive now? Aside from needing her to cause more trouble, why hasn't Varys gotten rid of her since she is a major obstacle?

Will we see Dorne, which supports Aegon, attack the Lannister armies? Dorne has remained neutral during the crown war (Between starks/lannister/Baratheons) and so has a fully ready army. The other groups in Westeros are busy dying, while Dorne apparently has proper food supplies. How is Cersei going to be able to keep Dorne in line, when Dorne clearly hates her family?

Again, why is Cersei not dead yet?

[Xondoure]

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Robert was put on the throne because the Baratheon's had the claim to it. Tywin wasn't named hand because despite being instrumental in the rebellion, they were still facing the shame of being one of the last to switch sides, not to mention Jaime's actions. Meaning their aid was tainted with lack of faith. And frankly everything was working as best as can be hoped under this sort of political system until the books begin. Were it not for the twincest, there wouldn't even be a plot. And other than maybe making the case that Tywin should have known about it, that can hardly be blamed on anybody.

[TechnOkami]

Just as a side note, it's really amusing when this thread and the newest League of Legends thread update (which is usually around the same time) because one is using the books as their Thread Title, and the other is a League-inspired parody of the titles.

[Math_Mage]

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I think the reasoning is mainly Cersei just lying off her Arse here. There was little reason for her to be angry about what happened especially since Robert was drunk. Blaming some dead woman instead of replacing her in his heart sounds exactly like trashy Cersei. She just wanted a justification on killing Robert anyway and made it up.

Given how Cersei is shown to think (Or not, she lacks serious skills here), she would have made up some excuse and the statement sounds more like a way to bury a blade in Ned's honor more than because it is an understandable excuse. Blaming Robert's mention of Lyanna sounds very much like someone with control issues.

I don't feel pity for Cersei at all over this, because she chooses to go about it in a completely absurd fashion. She also makes sure to kill every last bastard child that Robert has, while herself producing kids via her own brother; this same woman complains that Robert has feelings for some dead woman and that is supposed to make it right or even justified?

Sorry, Cersei, but you are a monster and you raised a monster kid. Oh, and Tywin was far smarter than by a long shot.

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I doubt it is a lie. It fits both Robert and Cersei's characters to a tee.

Nor do I think you are intended to think Cersei is right or justified. Sympathy for her situation is not the same as sympathy for her, or for her actions.

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Despite whoever was king, the Hand should have been Tywin no matter what. Jon Arryn was the completely wrong choice here and its not likely that Tywin wouldn't have figured out the incest as easily as Ned did. Plus Tywin would have kept the kingdom running better.

Its clear by the end of book 5 that Jon Arryn had no skills at being Hand, and he should have been replaced with Tywin before Robert died. Instead we get Ned, who isn't any better than Arryn was. Tywin was good and should have been chosen. The fact he wasn't is rather stupid.

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Jon's suitability aside, between the sack of King's Landing and what happened to Elia of Dorne and her children, Tywin had earned a great deal of enmity in the capital. Besides, Cersei's marriage was his reward; giving him the Hand would have been more Lannister control than the other kingdoms could accept.

Something I want answered...

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Did Tywin know about Rhaeger's friend Jon switching out Aegon? If so, did he choose to say nothing in the belief that Aegon would overthrow Robert? Did Tywin actually care or did he just not know about it?

Why is Cersei still alive now? Aside from needing her to cause more trouble, why hasn't Varys gotten rid of her since she is a major obstacle?

Will we see Dorne, which supports Aegon, attack the Lannister armies? Dorne has remained neutral during the crown war (Between starks/lannister/Baratheons) and so has a fully ready army. The other groups in Westeros are busy dying, while Dorne apparently has proper food supplies. How is Cersei going to be able to keep Dorne in line, when Dorne clearly hates her family?

Again, why is Cersei not dead yet?

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You assume Aegon is truly Aegon. That said, either way, it's highly unlikely Tywin knows anything about Young Griff.

Varys lets Cersei do as she pleases because Cersei is so effective at weakening Westeros with her idiocy and paranoia.

Dorne will make alliance with Aegon, and Westeros will not be ready for them. But I don't expect Westeros to be the source of Aegon's downfall.

[HeadlessMermaid]

At this point, I'd like to interrupt the spoilers, in order to encourage SaintRidley to keep reading and writing.

SaintRidley, if you ever feel so inclined, I'd be very interested in any analysis you'd like to give. Predictions and crackpot theories are lovely (and we have plenty of those all over the internet), but I'm kind of missing the more basic stuff (literary critique, themes, etc).

Something I want answered...

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Did Tywin know about Rhaeger's friend Jon switching out Aegon? If so, did he choose to say nothing in the belief that Aegon would overthrow Robert? Did Tywin actually care or did he just not know about it?

Why is Cersei still alive now? Aside from needing her to cause more trouble, why hasn't Varys gotten rid of her since she is a major obstacle?

Will we see Dorne, which supports Aegon, attack the Lannister armies? Dorne has remained neutral during the crown war (Between starks/lannister/Baratheons) and so has a fully ready army. The other groups in Westeros are busy dying, while Dorne apparently has proper food supplies. How is Cersei going to be able to keep Dorne in line, when Dorne clearly hates her family?

Again, why is Cersei not dead yet?

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1) We don't have any indication (as far as I know) that Tywin knew about Aegon. In fact, a lot of people aren't convinced that Aegon truly lives, and think that the boy is a fake - a random child raised to believe he is Aegon, which fits nicely with the fake dragon in Dany's visions in the House of the Undying. The safest answer is "probably not".

2) Varys doesn't consider Cersei an obstacle at this point. On the contrary, he claims that her presence is a boon to his plans, because he aims to sow discontent and chaos - so that Aegon can come as a saviour. That's why he killed Kevan Lannister, he was good at his job and Varys didn't want that. He wants Cersei to rule and mess it up.

3) I don't know what Dorne is going to do, they have options and all of them are risky, and they've been very cautious up to now. This will probably change very soon, but I'm not making any predictions.

[Aedilred]

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I don't feel pity for Cersei at all over this, because she chooses to go about it in a completely absurd fashion. She also makes sure to kill every last bastard child that Robert has, while herself producing kids via her own brother; this same woman complains that Robert has feelings for some dead woman and that is supposed to make it right or even justified?

Spoiler: Girls Are Pretty

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While I agree with the general thrust here, I think she was prepared to tolerate Robert's bastards so long as (a) they weren't a threat to her and (b) she didn't have to deal with them. She probably had the twins in Casterly Rock killed, because they were right under her nose, and she threatened to to the same to (presumably) Mya if Robert brought her to court. But she didn't go out of her way to kill any of the others, until Ned blurted out about the incest and suddenly it became important to cover her tracks. Robert still has plenty of bastards living, and other than those in King's Landing Cersei doesn't seem to have tried to bump off any of them.

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Cersei only wanted Jaime and her father had tried to set up an arranged marriage with Rhaegar. There are no indications that Cersei loved or desired the prince.

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The Rhaegar arrangement failed because Aerys was going through a "piss Tywin off for no reason" phase and turned him down. In A Feast for Crows we see that Cersei was really very keen on Rhaegar when she was younger.

As far as Jaime goes, I've gradually come round to the view that Cersei doesn't really love Jaime, at least not in the way that he loves her. Sure, he's perhaps the only person she considers good enough for her, but that's because she's colossally arrogant and she sees her reflection in him, rather than for who he actually is. As he starts to display his own character a bit more, independently of her, rather than just doing what she wants, she seems to lose interest in him.

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Despite whoever was king, the Hand should have been Tywin no matter what. Jon Arryn was the completely wrong choice here and its not likely that Tywin wouldn't have figured out the incest as easily as Ned did. Plus Tywin would have kept the kingdom running better.

Its clear by the end of book 5 that Jon Arryn had no skills at being Hand, and he should have been replaced with Tywin before Robert died. Instead we get Ned, who isn't any better than Arryn was. Tywin was good and should have been chosen. The fact he wasn't is rather stupid.

Spoiler: Take Your Chances

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It's clear that Ned doesn't trust Tywin at all. Robert doesn't like him much either. While they might have developed that feeling independently, it's likely that that was informed by Jon's own views on the subject. There also seems to have been a movement - a conspiracy, perhaps - in the last years of Aerys's reign, to interlink four of the Great Houses (perhaps explaining Aerys's paranoia etc.) and those later went on to form the core of the rebellion and the new regime (i.e. Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon). It's mentioned at one point that an attempt to bring Tywin in on the STAB dealings (by marrying Jaime to a Tully) fell through and it's not explained why - was this because Tywin was too close to Aerys, because they decided they couldn't trust him, because Aerys intervened? We don't know. But there's certainly a history there.

There's also the division of powers going on. Even without Tywin as Hand, the Lannisters manage to all but take over the regime via Cersei. Having Jon as Hand helps to balance the Lannister influence, whereas if you give it to Tywin you might as well hand him the keys to the kingdom. Ned objects even to giving the Lannisters an additional Wardenship. Tywin's already just about the most powerful man in Westeros, giving him official power is taking a big risk.

Now, that's not to say Tywin wouldn't necessarily have been a capable Hand, because he was under Aerys and probably would have been again, if Robert could have overcome his dislike for him, anyway. But given the political situation there were other factors at play.

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Did Tywin know about Rhaeger's friend Jon switching out Aegon? If so, did he choose to say nothing in the belief that Aegon would overthrow Robert? Did Tywin actually care or did he just not know about it?

Why is Cersei still alive now? Aside from needing her to cause more trouble, why hasn't Varys gotten rid of her since she is a major obstacle?

Will we see Dorne, which supports Aegon, attack the Lannister armies? Dorne has remained neutral during the crown war (Between starks/lannister/Baratheons) and so has a fully ready army. The other groups in Westeros are busy dying, while Dorne apparently has proper food supplies. How is Cersei going to be able to keep Dorne in line, when Dorne clearly hates her family?

Again, why is Cersei not dead yet?

Spoiler: Roll the Dice

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Cersei is still, at this point, more valuable to Varys alive than dead. She's probably done more to damage the Lannister cause since Blackwater than anyone save perhaps Littlefinger. Varys isn't also a super-duper assassin who can just eliminate anyone at whim. He took a risk in eliminating Pycelle and Kevan; he can't afford to do that all the time, especially not for people who aren't priority targets.

I think it's very unlikely that Tywin knew anything at all about the Aegon switch.

[SaintRidley]

At this point, I'd like to interrupt the spoilers, in order to encourage SaintRidley to keep reading and writing.

SaintRidley, if you ever feel so inclined, I'd be very interested in any analysis you'd like to give. Predictions and crackpot theories are lovely (and we have plenty of those all over the internet), but I'm kind of missing the more basic stuff (literary critique, themes, etc).

Don't worry, I will keep reading and writing. Probably going to be only one update the next two weeks though - I have an article I need to get a draft together on, so that'll be my priority.

[TechnOkami]

spoilerstuffs

I'd ask that you don't title your spoilers in the interest of not giving any away to the dude reading the books, which is what this thread is all about. Thank you.

[Aedilred]

I'd ask that you don't title your spoilers in the interest of not giving any away to the dude reading the books, which is what this thread is all about. Thank you.

It was actually precisely for that reason that I did title them, and gave some thoughts to what I titled them, so that he (and others who are still reading) could know what they can open safely. But if the standard is to have undifferentiated spoiler blocks that you have to take a chance on, I'll remove the titles.

[thethird]

I would actually have two layers of spoilers, [spoiler][tittledspoiler]...

If that makes sense.

[SaintRidley]

I'm just not opening any spoiler boxes, at all. Not even using the quote feature on posts with spoiler boxes - I'll copy/paste what I need to quote from outside.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm just not opening any spoiler boxes, at all. Not even using the quote feature on posts with spoiler boxes - I'll copy/paste what I need to quote from outside.

Probably a good idea, all things considered.

So far, your progression of which characters you like and which you dislike closely mirrors my own, so I think I, too, will follow your posts and vicariously relive the experience of reading the books for the first time a second time. Thank you for doing this.

Also, it had never occurred to me, but I agree: Sandor Clegane is indeed Sparhawk, had he been born in the far more crapsack world of Westeros.

Grey Wolf

[Shadow of the Sun]

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One of the interesting dynamics about Robert and Cersei's relationship is that they both had the exact same reaction regarding each other.

They both basically said "Screw this, I wanted the pretty one!".

Robert wanted Lyanna, who as know is dead.
Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar; Tywin had promised that he would get it arranged somehow.
So Cersei's hatred for Robert is doublefold; he insulted her pride by calling her Lyanna on their consummation- and he'd killed the man she wanted to marry, the man who she'd expected she'd marry since she was like, 8.

They were also similarly matched in other ways- both were good at gaining power, but were entirely useless at keeping it or using it effectively; in Robert's case, he was a warrior first and foremost, and being a king was ill-suited to him. With Cersei it was more that she's incredibly unstable and unable to take any criticisms whatsoever.

As much as I think he's a bad person, I think the only person involved in Robert's Rebellion who would have made a decent king is Lord Tywin. He's a bastard, a right sod, and brutal, but he has exactly the right sort of pragmatism for the kind of world that A Song of Ice and Fire is.

[Aedilred]

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As much as I think he's a bad person, I think the only person involved in Robert's Rebellion who would have made a decent king is Lord Tywin. He's a bastard, a right sod, and brutal, but he has exactly the right sort of pragmatism for the kind of world that A Song of Ice and Fire is.

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The one figure in Robert's Rebellion who always gets overlooked, but still played a key role, is Hoster Tully. The Riverlands are poorly-situated strategically but they have a lot of people, and are probably quite wealthy; Hoster himself seems like a shrewd and capable lord, who's also not afraid to get his hands dirty when he needs to (viz. the rubbing out of Targaryen loyalists in the Rebellion). He kind of retreated into the background after the Rebellion, it seems, but there was a sense in A Game of Thrones that if he'd been fit and able, the situation would never have been allowed to get out of hand in the way it did. He might have made a decent king, albeit a left-field selection.

People talk about Tywin's pragmatism a lot, and for all that they have a point I do wonder slightly, because while Tywin has the ruthlessness to deal with uppity lords in a way that some others don't, he's also the uppitiest lord of the lot himself and if he wasn't such a bastard everything might not have gone to pot in the first place. I can't help but think he's part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

[Shadow of the Sun]

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The one figure in Robert's Rebellion who always gets overlooked, but still played a key role, is Hoster Tully. The Riverlands are poorly-situated strategically but they have a lot of people, and are probably quite wealthy; Hoster himself seems like a shrewd and capable lord, who's also not afraid to get his hands dirty when he needs to (viz. the rubbing out of Targaryen loyalists in the Rebellion). He kind of retreated into the background after the Rebellion, it seems, but there was a sense in A Game of Thrones that if he'd been fit and able, the situation would never have been allowed to get out of hand in the way it did. He might have made a decent king, albeit a left-field selection.

People talk about Tywin's pragmatism a lot, and for all that they have a point I do wonder slightly, because while Tywin has the ruthlessness to deal with uppity lords in a way that some others don't, he's also the uppitiest lord of the lot himself and if he wasn't such a bastard everything might not have gone to pot in the first place. I can't help but think he's part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

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To be fair on Tywin's part: he ran the Seven Kingdoms prosperously and peacefully for 20 years as Aerys's hand. Things only started being more of an issue after Aerys turned down Tywin's marriage proposal for Rhaegar and inducted his son into the Kingsguard as blackmail leverage; after that, Tywin decided he didn't want to put up with that crap and resigned.

And then Aerys didn't have a stabilizing influence any more and stuff went stupid.

Hoster may have been a good king, but because we don't see that much of him, I can't really say.

[Killer Angel]

Something I want answered...

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Why is Cersei still alive now? Aside from needing her to cause more trouble, why hasn't Varys gotten rid of her since she is a major obstacle?

Will we see Dorne, which supports Aegon, attack the Lannister armies? Dorne has remained neutral during the crown war (Between starks/lannister/Baratheons) and so has a fully ready army. The other groups in Westeros are busy dying, while Dorne apparently has proper food supplies. How is Cersei going to be able to keep Dorne in line, when Dorne clearly hates her family?

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Cersei is not an obstacle, she's a tool, an unaware instrument.

And i really hope to see Dorne's full strenght, smashing something

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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i really hope to see Dorne's full strenght, smashing something

Spoiler: Dorne

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Unlikely, unfortunately. From what has been described, Dorne is not the kind of military that smashes things - they are good at defending their homeland, probably by guerilla tactics, but it is telling that Dorne has never invaded anyone else. Their chief military achievement was to not let the Targaryans conquer them.