Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[Math_Mage]

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To be fair on Tywin's part: he ran the Seven Kingdoms prosperously and peacefully for 20 years as Aerys's hand. Things only started being more of an issue after Aerys turned down Tywin's marriage proposal for Rhaegar and inducted his son into the Kingsguard as blackmail leverage; after that, Tywin decided he didn't want to put up with that crap and resigned.

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More accurately, to deprive Tywin of his heir.

[Killer Angel]

Spoiler: Dorne

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Unlikely, unfortunately. From what has been described, Dorne is not the kind of military that smashes things - they are good at defending their homeland, probably by guerilla tactics, but it is telling that Dorne has never invaded anyone else. Their chief military achievement was to not let the Targaryans conquer them.

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You're probably right. Plus, it's a desertic land, so it must be a nightmare for the logistic of any invading army...

[TechnOkami]

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So, I'm currently in A Dance with Dragons, and I just finished Cersei's first story. ...good GOD the woman is paranoid. Like, I knew this already, but she's ascended to Lysa Tully levels of paranoia, if Lysa were more politically relevant than she already was.

Oh, and I'm so happy Daenerys has Drogon back, her plot was really starting to drag while she was stuck in Mereen.

[Math_Mage]

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So, I'm currently in A Dance with Dragons, and I just finished Cersei's first story. ...good GOD the woman is paranoid. Like, I knew this already, but she's ascended to Lysa Tully levels of paranoia, if Lysa were more politically relevant than she already was.

Oh, and I'm so happy Daenerys has Drogon back, her plot was really starting to drag while she was stuck in Mereen.

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Yes, Cersei gets rather Flanderized as the books progress.

[Aolbain]

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Yes, Cersei gets rather Flanderized as the books progress.

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I wouldn't call it flanderization. It is more that she is slowly loosing her grip on reality.

[russdm]

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I wouldn't call it flanderization. It is more that she is slowly loosing her grip on reality.

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That is assuming she actually had a grip on reality. I am not quite sure about that even in book one.

[Legato Endless]

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That is assuming she actually had a grip on reality. I am not quite sure about that even in book one.

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She didn't. Cersei's always been paranoid and narcissistic, she's just begun to visibly unravel with recent events following Joffrey's death. This is the same person who killed her adolescent best friend merely for expressing (an impossible) interest in her brother.

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You're probably right. Plus, it's a desertic land, so it must be a nightmare for the logistic of any invading army...

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No, you'll get your wish. Dorne is only mostly mountains and desert. It also contains enough fertile land to both sustain the population and to be the primary exporter of citrus fruits and certain wines in Westeros. While it is the least populous, it does indeed have a standing army. 25% of the 40,000 troops Rhaegar led in the battle of the Trident were Dornishmen. ADWD heavily implies Lord Martell intends to use his army to avenge his sister's death by allying with one of the Targaryen claimants.

[spoiler]
One of the interesting dynamics about Robert and Cersei's relationship is that they both had the exact same reaction regarding each other.

They both basically said "Screw this, I wanted the pretty one!".

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Well, except that all four of them were exceedingly attractive.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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No, you'll get your wish. Dorne is only mostly mountains and desert. It also contains enough fertile land to both sustain the population and to be the primary exporter of citrus fruits and certain wines in Westeros. While it is the least populous, it does indeed have a standing army. 25% of the 40,000 troops Rhaegar led in the battle of the Trident were Dornishmen. ADWD heavily implies Lord Martell intends to use his army to avenge his sister's death by allying with one of the Targaryen claimants.

Spoiler: Dorne (speculation)

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There are two kingdoms with intact armies left in Westeros: The Vale and Dorne. The Vale (currently under Littlefinger control) I can see being of the "march and crush" type. Dorne, not so much. If Rhaegar could only marshal a pitiful 10k troops from his closest allies for the Trident (and then proceeded to use those troops to lose said battle!), I doubt they will be able to bring forth much more at this juncture - and 10k is not only not enough to stand up in open combat against the Vale, it probably isn't enough to take down the remains of the armies of the other Kingdoms.

No, I have great respect for Dorne and I'll love to see them march into the war, but they really don't strike me as the unstoppable behemoth type. Blitzkrieg tactics, hit and runs, pincers... the list of cool things they might be able to attempt is extensive, but they aren't the hammer.

That said, Dorne does seem to have a certain amount of gold at their disposal, so we may see a lot of foreign troops being used as said hammer. But that is somehow not quite the same.

[Math_Mage]

Spoiler: Dorne (speculation)

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There are two kingdoms with intact armies left in Westeros: The Vale and Dorne. The Vale (currently under Littlefinger control) I can see being of the "march and crush" type. Dorne, not so much. If Rhaegar could only marshal a pitiful 10k troops from his closest allies for the Trident (and then proceeded to use those troops to lose said battle!), I doubt they will be able to bring forth much more at this juncture - and 10k is not only not enough to stand up in open combat against the Vale, it probably isn't enough to take down the remains of the armies of the other Kingdoms.

No, I have great respect for Dorne and I'll love to see them march into the war, but they really don't strike me as the unstoppable behemoth type. Blitzkrieg tactics, hit and runs, pincers... the list of cool things they might be able to attempt is extensive, but they aren't the hammer.

That said, Dorne does seem to have a certain amount of gold at their disposal, so we may see a lot of foreign troops being used as said hammer. But that is somehow not quite the same.

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It may not be quite the same, but it's what's most likely to happen. Remember, Aegon brings his own 10,000 men in the form of the Golden Company. And they may well find more allies among the resentful subjects of Westeros.

[Anderlith]

I just want to pose this question since this thread is getting a lot of attention & discussion

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Anybody else want to smack Daenerys & never ever let her lead a group in song let alone a kingdom. She is terrible at learning from mistakes & seems only to ever trust untrustworthy people while alienating those that only want to help her. She is ruthless when she should be merciful & merciful when she should be ruthless. She is every inch her brother. Her only redeeming feature are her dragons, & she even betrays them. I honestly hope she either dies or at least never ends up holding the throne, even though I know she probably will.

[Math_Mage]

I just want to pose this question since this thread is getting a lot of attention & discussion

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Anybody else want to smack Daenerys & never ever let her lead a group in song let alone a kingdom. She is terrible at learning from mistakes & seems only to ever trust untrustworthy people while alienating those that only want to help her. She is ruthless when she should be merciful & merciful when she should be ruthless. She is every inch her brother. Her only redeeming feature are her dragons, & she even betrays them. I honestly hope she either dies or at least never ends up holding the throne, even though I know she probably will.

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It's intentional. There's no way Martin can set up someone as naive as Daenerys and not pull out the rug from under her. But, y'know, he kinda did that already at the end of ADWD. Daenerys is going to change--maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, but she won't be the delusional slave-freeing girl who chained her dragons and married Hizdahr anymore.

[Wardog]

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You're probably right. Plus, it's a desertic land, so it must be a nightmare for the logistic of any invading army...

Not sure if this really requires a spoiler, but seeing that the previous point was spoilered I might as well:

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That's explicitly stated at one point. The only way to physically get a large army into Dorne (other than by sea, I presume), is through an narrow (and hence slow) mountain pass in an inhospitable desert. The Dorne sigil - a spear and a blazing sun - represents their two most effective weapons - and the sun is considered the deadlier of the pair. Even without Dornish harassment, any invading army is going to take a lot of casualties just from the environment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if this really requires a spoiler, but seeing that the previous point was spoilered I might as well:

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That's explicitly stated at one point. The only way to physically get a large army into Dorne (other than by sea, I presume), is through an narrow (and hence slow) mountain pass in an inhospitable desert. The Dorne sigil - a spear and a blazing sun - represents their two most effective weapons - and the sun is considered the deadlier of the pair. Even without Dornish harassment, any invading army is going to take a lot of casualties just from the environment.

Spoiler: Dorne

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Indeed - walking armoured men into a desert (armoured cavalry being the deciding number in Westeros, at their current level of military thinking) is a good way to loose said men in a hurry. Heavy military horses also require enourmous amounts of food and water, which quickly means that your armoured cavalry becomes footmen in padded armour hoping the enemy will given them a chance to dress up before battle - and Dorne military likely doesn't.

As to moving armies by boat, AFAIK it is exceedingly difficult. In the first place, ships are expensive, delicate and don't carry that many troops (as Daenerys discovered very early on). Worse, establishing a beachhead is a military objective known to send shivers down even the most able of generals. After all, beaches are almost by definition extremely exposed positions, with a gentle slope going down towards them and no cover to speak of. They are hard to take, hard to hold once taken, and a bloody business all around. Your best chance is to take them without the enemy knowing you did, so you have time to move inland and find a defensible spot, and said chance is reduced drastically with the size of the army required and the expectation of arrival (e.g. Greyjoy tactics tend to only work when they're not expected to attack).

And this only addresses the initial thrust into the territory. Tactics win battles, but logistics win wars. You need supply lines, and those are hilariously delicate both when established in a desert and when attempted by sea (you really don't want to leave your next meal at the mercy of a sudden storm).

[Pokonic]

Spoiler: Dorne

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Indeed - walking armoured men into a desert (armoured cavalry being the deciding number in Westeros, at their current level of military thinking) is a good way to loose said men in a hurry. Heavy military horses also require enourmous amounts of food and water, which quickly means that your armoured cavalry becomes footmen in padded armour hoping the enemy will given them a chance to dress up before battle - and Dorne military likely doesn't.

As to moving armies by boat, AFAIK it is exceedingly difficult. In the first place, ships are expensive, delicate and don't carry that many troops (as Daenerys discovered very early on). Worse, establishing a beachhead is a military objective known to send shivers down even the most able of generals. After all, beaches are almost by definition extremely exposed positions, with a gentle slope going down towards them and no cover to speak of. They are hard to take, hard to hold once taken, and a bloody business all around. Your best chance is to take them without the enemy knowing you did, so you have time to move inland and find a defensible spot, and said chance is reduced drastically with the size of the army required and the expectation of arrival (e.g. Greyjoy tactics tend to only work when they're not expected to attack).

And this only addresses the initial thrust into the territory. Tactics win battles, but logistics win wars. You need supply lines, and those are hilariously delicate both when established in a desert and when attempted by sea (you really don't want to leave your next meal at the mercy of a sudden storm).

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It's a good idea to consider Dorne's placement in Westeros with the Reach in mind. The Reach is both the breadbasket and the military powerhouse of the land, and unlike most of the higher houses the Tyrells are mostly good eggs. However, even with that nasty feud with the Martells, a invasion is impractical because even with all the food and men they could send down that mountain pass it's unlikely they could even get pass the mountains, let alone the actual deserts.

[Brewdude]

Paging the OP. It's been more than a week now. What kind of schedule should we be expecting?

[TechnOkami]

Paging the OP. It's been more than a week now. What kind of schedule should we be expecting?

Random at best would be my guess. OP will post when OP posts.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Paging the OP. It's been more than a week now. What kind of schedule should we be expecting?

OP has mentioned that ze are a student. So there are probably going to be fits and starts as things that have a bearing on future employment etc come up.

[SaintRidley]

Paging the OP. It's been more than a week now. What kind of schedule should we be expecting?

Working on a draft of an article right now. In a few days when I have some more written I can get my thoughts on the next hundred pages written and up to you all, but right now the article comes first. Once that's done, though, I should be able to get more frequent.

[Legato Endless]

Working on a draft of an article right now. In a few days when I have some more written I can get my thoughts on the next hundred pages written and up to you all, but right now the article comes first. Once that's done, though, I should be able to get more frequent.

Take your time.

Spoiler: Dorne (speculation)

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There are two kingdoms with intact armies left in Westeros: The Vale and Dorne. The Vale (currently under Littlefinger control) I can see being of the "march and crush" type. Dorne, not so much. If Rhaegar could only marshal a pitiful 10k troops from his closest allies for the Trident (and then proceeded to use those troops to lose said battle!), I doubt they will be able to bring forth much more at this juncture - and 10k is not only not enough to stand up in open combat against the Vale, it probably isn't enough to take down the remains of the armies of the other Kingdoms.

No, I have great respect for Dorne and I'll love to see them march into the war, but they really don't strike me as the unstoppable behemoth type. Blitzkrieg tactics, hit and runs, pincers... the list of cool things they might be able to attempt is extensive, but they aren't the hammer.

That said, Dorne does seem to have a certain amount of gold at their disposal, so we may see a lot of foreign troops being used as said hammer. But that is somehow not quite the same.

Spoiler: Sounds legit

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Ah, okay. I interpreted Killer Angel's more figuratively. No, I agree, Dorne won't fight stylistically in any way resembling Vale tactics. What I was more getting at is, we will be getting a Dorne battle scene sometime in the next book or two (depending on plot progression). Dorne is going to participate militarily. But yes, you're definitely right. They're famous for their vanish and harass tactics for a reason.

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It's a good idea to consider Dorne's placement in Westeros with the Reach in mind. The Reach is both the breadbasket and the military powerhouse of the land, and unlike most of the higher houses the Tyrells are mostly good eggs. However, even with that nasty feud with the Martells, a invasion is impractical because even with all the food and men they could send down that mountain pass it's unlikely they could even get pass the mountains, let alone the actual deserts.

Spoiler: Raiding

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Oh the mountains aren't impregnable, it's just as Grey Wolf noted, supply lines and other logistical considerations are a nightmare for large groups of men. Daeron needed to utilize a goat's pass to get his army in unsullied to begin his short lived conquest. A large part of hostility between the Reach (and to a lesser extent the Stormlords) are the constant border skirmishes, with more agile raiding parties harrying into the marches.

[SaintRidley]

Okay, so I got a lot of work done in class this morning, very little of it related to the class. That's fortunate for you all, though.

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
Game of Thrones part four! Pages ~400-500.

Hey, look at that, the next section starts at page 501 of my copy. Cool.

Anywho, I’m over the hump so to speak and now that we’re past the midpoint of the book things seem to be ramping up. The wheels are in motion. The eagle has taken off. The oven has been preheated and the bun ensconced firmly within. And now it looks like payoff will begin. Oh what a naïve fool I must be if I expect that – there are still four more books, plus however many more Martin plans to write to finish the series. Payoff’s a myth.

But that doesn’t mean there isn’t fun to be had. To the chapters!

Bran: Bran goes riding, gets attacked. Greyjoy’s interesting – hard to know what to make of him exactly, but he seems to pull through on defending Bran here. Getting my attention more is the fact that the attackers are deserters from the Night’s Watch, as is the first failed assassin. I smell a conspiracy.

Tyrion: Before I get too far into this, I’m just going to gush about the prison design here. I mean, in reality I wouldn’t ever want to see anything like this. But this is great in fiction. It’s inventive, which is always a plus to me. I mean, as I’m visualizing, it seems to be a very panoptic setup. You only need one guard, really, since there ought to be a position from which to see every cell. Nowhere to hide in the cells either. The fact that the cells are open in back and most of the prisoners wind up “escaping” seems like something that could very well be taken, if we get a look at the ways other areas in Westeros deal with prisoners, as a critique of modern prison practices based on the psychological damage they do. Just spinning some thoughts here.

Anyway, Lysa and her son are batcrap nuts. “I want to see him fly.” Maybe at some point the kid will get to experience flying for himself – probably at the direction of Tyrion. And ah, duels for justice. Might makes right and all. And no surprise that Tyrion’s new buddy-ish guy stands for him.

Eddard: He’s alive! But he’s not really interesting here. What is interesting is that Cersei seems to be getting bolder in her disdain for her husband. I will say, however, that she is a bit right – if she were king, she’d actually do things. Might not agree with the things she’d do, but at least she would do. Robert, not so much with the doing. Still going to be the Hand.

Catelyn: This woman has good sense. And nobody listens to her. And the fight, unsurprisingly, goes Tyrion’s way. No way he was getting taken out this early. And he’s not one to let revenge not happen, so we’ll have to see what his plan is.

Jon: Promotions. And trying to get Sam a promotion as well. Not too much to say here, really. Or is there?

Tyrion: We learn a bit here. First of all, the plan is definitely to mount an assault on the Eyrie. And to use the locals around the Vale to do so. I’m surprised nobody has tried this before. But then again, as much as Lysa boasts about how impregnable her fortress is, it was bound to come down soon. By the end of this particular book? Perhaps. In character building news, we learn that while Tyrion doesn’t bet against family, it doesn’t seem like he has much reason to be loyal to them either, given the story he tells about his “marriage.” You just gotta feel for the little dude.

Eddard: And so it begins – the Lannisters have fired some proverbial shots to kick off this war. I like the way Martin writes the villagers’ speech. It’s not misspelled, which always carries an air of elitism over the people into whose mouths you’re putting the misspelled words, but instead he dips into colloquialism, clipping some of the speech, and even employing “incorrect” grammar which more accurately reflects the sound of the speech. I like that. Some good justice dispensing here.

Sansa: I’m beginning to pity her more than I dislike her. She’s seizing onto the betrothal to Joffrey because it’s the only way she seems to have of gaining any sort of status, power, and autonomy. And then she tells Arya she should have been killed instead of Lady, and I start feeling less pity again. And then we get this line:

“Father, I only just remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him.

That right there brings me back to pity. Somewhere in there, she recognizes Joffrey for what he is, and she doesn’t like it. The rest seems to be bluster. But probably not the best idea, Ned. Send your kids away and they’ll be safer, but you also send away the one who’s smart enough to find plot.

Eddard: I’ll admit, I completely dropped the ball on this one. I really didn’t put the clues together to figure out the Lannister secret before Ned confronted Cersei about it. Ned, being the magnanimous idiot he is, offers her and hers an out. If they take it things could actually be even more disastrous for Ned than if they don’t, though.

Daenerys: We get a little of Dany, and it’s a good bit. There’s worry about her status as she gets older, but she doesn’t seem the sort to let herself get pushed out of relevance (also she’s kind of completely being built as someone to be around until the endgame). Her brother, on the other hand… Dany gave the kill order by translating for the Khal. At some point, remind me and I’ll write a bit at length about Dany, translation, and political power. There’s a lot to unpack in there, including some similarities to historical translators like La Malinche. So good riddance, Viserys; your death came from the lips of your sister. You got your crown after all.

Things of importance:
* Tyrion has revenge on his mind. I say good riddance to Lysa and her kid, but I worry Catelyn won’t survive it.
* With Viserys gone, Dany will have more room to make her own plans. What might those be?
* The Stark girls being on the move to Winterfell might come back to bite Ned. Maybe this is where Nymeria comes back into the picture, though? And just what is the importance of the direwolves and their corresponding humans – could Lady’s death mean something different for Sansa than for her siblings?

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Given that I managed not to predict what Jon Arryn had learned, my ass is clearly not the best or most reliable source of predictions. That said, I never expected it to be, so I do have one prediction to add. Cersei won’t be taking Ned’s offer, and neither Ned nor Robert is long for this book.

[TechnOkami]

[not a spoiler] What Jon Arryn was after makes So Much Sense after you think about it, and given how many references there are about it (if you pick up on them) you'll be sort of slamming your head, and damning yourself for not reading enough mystery books, or watching enough mystery movies.

[SaintRidley]

It really does. I'm not much of a mystery reader, so it really didn't occur to me.

[Shadow of the Sun]

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I think Saint Ridley will go back to despising Sansa again after the...events...
And then probably go back to pitying her.
Oh sweet summer child, etc.

[Legato Endless]

[not a spoiler] What Jon Arryn was after makes So Much Sense after you think about it, and given how many references there are about it (if you pick up on them) you'll be sort of slamming your head, and damning yourself for not reading enough mystery books, or watching enough mystery movies.

To the modern reader certainly. A few of the accusations against Ned's lack of figuring things out sooner are a touch unfair, considering our knowledge of Mendelian genetics he lacks.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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I think Saint Ridley will go back to despising Sansa again after the...events...
And then probably go back to pitying her.
Oh sweet summer child, etc.

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I don't think I ever went back to hating Sansa after realising that she's just too naive for her own good. She infuriates me most times, but in the same way a poorly housebroken puppy infuriates anyone.

GW

[Shadow of the Sun]

Spoiler: Sansa

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I don't think I ever went back to hating Sansa after realising that she's just too naive for her own good. She infuriates me most times, but in the same way a poorly housebroken puppy infuriates anyone.

GW

Spoiler: Sansa

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I could never like Sansa that much because after Book One for her it's almost as if Arya stopped existing. "Oh hey my scruffy sister I got into fights with? BAH! FORGET HER! WE'LL PRETEND SHE NEVER EXISTED! BOO HOO HOO WOE IS ME."

On a lighter note...
Why are the Lannister's beds so big?
Because they push two twins together to make a king!

[SaintRidley]

On a lighter note...
Why are the Lannister's beds so big?

Something something making sure the whole family can fit.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I forgot just how psychologically terrifying the Eyrie prisons are. <shudder> The initial description is coming back to me, what with the sky calling to the prisoners, etc.

[Pokonic]

Something something making sure the whole family can fit.

The Lannisters are a very loving, supporting family.

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Very supportive.

[thethird]

I would like to read your length-y writing about Dany :D