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2014-08-05, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
It's one of those things I think that's quite easy to miss if you're not paying attention, but completely obvious once it's pointed out. It's never actually confirmed, I don't think, and it makes hardly any difference to the plot whatsoever whether they're lovers or just BFFs, so calling it spoilers is possibly a bit of a stretch, yeah.
Then again when I'm reading something I don't like to hear even the tiniest hint of something that might or might not happen in future, so I tend to err on the side of caution as far as spoilers go.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-08-05, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Spoiler: Fair enough, thoughIt's not like having a Rainbow Guard, in hindsight, is anything less than obvious meta-hinting. And that pops up right away.Last edited by CarpeGuitarrem; 2014-08-05 at 01:11 PM.
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2014-08-05, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2014-08-05, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerHonestly, I feel like there aren't as many deaths as it's made out to be. Ned's hits people hard, though, and it's exaggerated from there, I guess.
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2014-08-06, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2014-08-06, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
It's war. People die. And pretty much all of them are well-foreshadowed. Or they are background characters.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2014-08-06, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Yeah, how many of those are like Beric Dondarrion's squire's best friend's cousin's butcher's roommate dying? That is a pretty glorious picture though.
Last edited by Gnome Alone; 2014-08-07 at 01:37 AM. Reason: had to correct spelling of made-up nonsense words
Avatar by the one and only Ceika.
"I'll be whatever I wanna do." - Philip J. Fry
my fake wizard|my fake one-shot|my fake link
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2014-08-06, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Martin actually confirmed it in person. He said it in a public talk several years ago.
SpoilerThough, according to him, the rainbow cloaks had nothing to do with it and were not playing of popular modern symbols. It's just that, quite literally, Renly was fashionable and liked bright colors.It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.
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2014-08-06, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Spoiler: Character Death Listing Books 1-3
It is to an extent. There really are a lot of dead characters, but a fair number of them are secondary and tertiary. No one remembers Chiggen's death, so it's essentially a non entity to show how dangerous the Vale has become.
Of the 24 POV characters, discounting the prologues and epilogues, only 4 are dead.
Or in Game of Thrones, of the characters in this listing, we lose only a few figures whom the reader will readily remember in any vivid way. Robert, Viserys, Eddard, Khal Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur.
A Game of Thrones - 54 deaths
Ser Waymar Royce
Will
Gared
Jon Arryn
Lady
Mycah
Ser Hugh
Jyck
Kurleket
Mohor
Morrec
Chiggen
Lharys
Wyl
Heward
Jory Cassel
Wallen
Hali
Stiv
Tregar
Ser Vardis Egen
Viserys Targaryen
Robert Baratheon
Fat Tom
Varly
Cayn
Hullen
Desmond
Othor
Jafer Flowers
Lord Vance
Ser Raymun Darry
Masha Heddle
Ser Jaremy Rykker
Khal Ogo
Khal Fogo
Ulf son of Umar
Conn son of Coratt
Torrhen Karstark
Eddard Karstark
Daryn Hornwood
Quaro
Qotho
Haggo
Cohollo
Eddard Stark
Septa Mordane
Veyon Poole
Rhaego
Eroeh
Khal Drogo
Andros Brax
Mirri Maz Duur
A Clash of Kings - 72 deaths
Maester Cressen
Praed
Beric Dondarrion
Ser Burton Crakehall
Hendry Bracken
Lyman Darry
Allar Deem
Ser Hubard Rambton
Doreah
Woth
Dobber
Qyle
Gerren
Koss
Yoren
Kurz
Lommy Greenhands
All-for-Joffrey
Medger Cerwyn
Chiswyck
Stafford Lannister
Rupert Brax
Roland Crakehall
Antario Jast
Lymond Vikary
Renly Baratheon
Stevron Frey
Reek
Donella Hornwood
Emmon Cuy
Robar Royce
Todric
Benfred Tallhart
Weese
Poul Pemford
Myles
Aron Santagar
High Septon
Ser Preston Greenfield
Alfyn Crowkiller
Ser Cortnay Penrose
Leo Lefford
Alebelly
Mikken
Ser Amory Lorch
Septon Chayle
Drennan
Squint
Gelmarr the Grim
Aggar
Gynir Rednose
Farlen
Ser Mandon Moore
Ser Guyard Morrigen
Maester Tothmure
Lucan
Goodwife Harra
Bryce Caron
Ser Bryan Fossoway
Ser Edwyd Fossoway
Ser Rodrik Cassel
Leobald Tallhart
Cley Cerwyn
Red Rolfe
Kenned
Black Lorren
Ulf
Squire Dalbridge
Ebben
Qhorin Halfhand
Poxy Tym
Maester Luwin
A Storm of Swords - 97 deaths
Iggo
Ser Jacelyn Bywater
Guncer Sunglass
Dale Seaworth
Allard Seaworth
Matthos Seaworth
Maric Seaworth
Jate Blackberry
Lord Chyttering
Hookface Will
Hal the Hog
Gladden Wylde
Lothar Mallery
Maslyn
Ser Ottyn Wythers
Thoren Smallwood
Small Paul
Ser Helman Tallhart
Tion Frey
Willem Lannister
Delp
Elwood
Rickard Karstark
Cleos Frey
Ser Imry Florent
Monford Velaryon
Kraznys Mo Nakloz
Grazdan Mo Ullhor
Jarl
Symon Silvertongue
Brown Bernarr
Hake
Bannen
Craster
Garth of Oldtown
Rolley of Sisterton
Ser Byam Flint
Jeor Mormont
Alyn
Hoster Tully
Kyle
Septon Utt
Bodger
Sallor the Bald
Prendahl Na Ghezn
Balon Greyjoy
Lord Botley
Lark the Sisterman
Softfoot
Ryles
Chett
Robin Flint
Ser Wendel Manderly
Lucas Blackwood
Donnel Locke
Owen Norrey
Dacey Mormont
Smalljon Umber
Robb Stark
Aegon Frey
Catelyn Stark
Grey Wind
Deaf **** Follard
Rast
Young Henly
Old Henly
Easy
Dornish Dilly
Styr
Quort
Stone Thumbs
Ygritte
Oznak Zo Pahl
Mero
Joffrey Baratheon
Ser Dontos Hollard
Vargo Hoat
Donal Noye
Mag the Mighty
Red Alyn of the Rosewood
Ser Endrew Tarth
Ser Aladale Wynch
Oberyn Martell
Harma Dogshead
Polliver
The Tickler
Watt of Long Lake
Dalla
Shae
Tywin Lannister
Eon Hunter
Lysa Arryn
Petyr Frey
Ser Garse Goodbrook
Ser Tytos Frey
Merrett Frey
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2014-08-06, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerYeah, I think I must have either misremembered or discounted secondary and tertiary character deaths. Plenty of fiction has non-main characters die off in droves, so I guess it didn't ping my sensors for that.
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2014-08-06, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerDiscounting secondary and tertiary character deaths makes perfect sense. I've read most of the books several times, largely because by the time a new one comes out I don't remember the details all that well. I still don't recognize parts of that list, as so many of those characters are complete non-entities. Ned Stark counts. Robert Baratheon counts. The guy Bran killed in trial by combat? Not so much.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-08-06, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
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2014-08-06, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Toronto, Canada
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2014-08-06, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
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2014-08-07, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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2014-08-07, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerI wouldn't call it tasteless. I do think the show way, way overdid it on sex scenes - they had to cut so much material, but they somehow managed to add a bunch of sex scenes that weren't there originally, and kept them all entirely too long - but given that they did that including that one is almost a decent move towards inclusivity. Had they taken the approach of "add in a bunch of sex scenes vaguelly alluded to in the book, except the gay ones" I'd be much more disappointed with the show.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-08-07, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerThat scene's actually what made me stop watching the show and switch to the books. Not because of the gay thing, but because I had no idea who this guy Loras was talking to was, he was obviously someone important I was supposed to know, and thus the show wasn't a very good look into the story, and best watched as an adaptation.
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2014-08-08, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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- NJ
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerActually, I'm astonished that more people aren't upset about those scenes. It has nothing to do with explicit gay sex. I don't care about that. I'm upset because it took two otherwise strong, deep, and intelligent characters . . . and reduced them to flat camp gay stereotypes.
And yes, I find a LOT of what HBO adds in terms of explicit sexual material to be tasteless.It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.
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2014-08-08, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Don't know about tasteless, I mostly hated sex content in the show for how bland, useless and over the top it was. It was pleasant surprise to find the books much more subdued :)
EDIT
SpoilerActually the Loras/Renly scene was kind of refreshing, with added shaving and dudes instead of women. But to give the show more "realistic" feel (only reason for the sex outside of dumb marketing) I'd add more rapes too, so maybe I'm not the best person to judge it :DLast edited by Tev; 2014-08-08 at 09:52 AM.
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2014-08-08, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerI agree. The show's portrayal of Renly - in the first season at least, and for some of the second - was really quite disappointing. For someone who was originally a man's man, young Robert, considered perhaps in some quarters a Robert-plus, charismatic enough to pull so many supporters to his cause despite having a relatively weak claim, and inspiring such fanatical loyalty even after death, not just in Loras, but Brienne, and Cortnay Penrose, even the people of King's Landing cheering for him at the riot... and on the screen he was just a bit of a camp whinging cipher.
By the time it reached Season 4, I was actually going into every episode on gratuitous sex scene watch. What amuses me almost as much as anything else, though, is that they've passed up or glossed over some opportunities for nude/sex scenes that were in the books themselves (two of them in the first episode alone) in favour of brothel sequences with disposable characters just there for the bewbs. I suppose it's more difficult to convince your "name" actors to get their kit off.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2014-08-08, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Spoiler
I wouldn't blame those scenes for that. I think they screwed up Renly's portrayal big time, and while Loras has a decent portrayal in the first season, I do think they screwed it up later. The inclusion of the scenes? Fine by me. I'm not exactly impressed by them, but then, I'm not exactly impressed by HBO's handling of the show in general, particularly the sexual elements.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-08-08, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerThe sex side of the (first Renly/Loras) scene didn't bother me, but the surrounding conversation did. "ooooh, I can't stand the sight of blood!" All he ever hears from his brothers is how he's a big wimp (and doing nothing to dispel that impression). The whole driving force for the alliance coming from Loras. And so on.
I thought Renly was a bit better in the second season, although they still screwed him up overall.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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(by Rain Dragon)
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2014-08-08, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2014-08-08, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Heads up - finally done with coursework for the summer, so it's just syllabus crafting and other odds and ends for the next two weeks. Expect an update on the first 100 pages of A Clash of Kings some time this weekend. As for Stannis... cold as ice.
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2014-08-09, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
SpoilerFair enough. I missed the surrounding conversation, because I watched the season with my dad - who fast forwarded that scene and only that scene. Which probably has a lot to do with why I had no issue with the scene, now that I think about it, between the conversation you're highlighting and my seeing the inclusion of that scene as helpful in the context of the attitudes that led to it being fast forwarded.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-08-10, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
A Clash of Kings part one! 1-~100!
Well, everybody, I’ve gone through the first hundred pages of A Clash of Kings. It’s an interesting start to the book – especially the comet. I like that Martin’s playing with the comet as omen idea, though I don’t put it past him to just have a comet so the characters can make a big deal out of it and create their own self-fulfilling prophecies regarding what the comet means. In this section we get introduced to another side (sides?) of the conflict in King Stannis. Now, in a hereditary monarchy he should have the throne once Joffrey’s true parentage is known, but this is also a hereditary monarchy with a bunch of factions which hate each other, so it doesn’t much matter what Stannis’s belief is regarding his claim to the throne.
Anyway, let’s get started.
Prologue: Here’s where we meet Stannis and the Red Woman. Another wrinkle in the religious fabric here, and she seems to have some sort of power to back it up if the failure of the poison is any indication. As for Stannis, he seems stone cold, cold as ice. Now, I don’t know if Martin looked into this when deciding on Stannis’ name and personality, but there’s a reason I see ice cold when I look at his name. I see Stan and is, the Old English words for stone and ice being compounded with an additional n to link the two elements. Dude’s cold as stone, and it starts in his name.
His daughter and the fool, however… I’m not sure, but she’s going to be important. And the fool seems important – knowing my Shakespeare, I know never to discount the fool. The shadows come to dance. The shadows come to stay. I don’t know what he means, but he means.
Arya: So Yoren’s planning to drop Arya off at Winterfell on his way to the Wall. If I know anything about plans, that just isn’t going to happen. She’s also now effectively disguised as a boy – I’m sure someone’s already written an article on Arya as a queer figure in these books due to the portrayal of gender with her.
Sansa: She’s starting to show signs of taking some limited forms of power – choosing Ser Arrys to be her escort and punisher, for instance. Tommen and Myrcella fortunately don’t appear to have the vicious streak Joffrey does, so that’s good. Still… And Sansa’s gotten snarky. “I should like to see that” is a good, flat line to deliver to Joffrey – the boy’s not quite bright enough to get it. Oh, and first wiener of the book:
His legs were pale and skinny, and his manhood flopped about obscenely as he chased after his horse.
And defying Joffrey, and getting Sandor to join her with that quick decision to make the floppy knight a fool rather than drown him, hmm… Let Sansa make Joffrey think he’s running the show and you might actually be able to have a functional kingdom with him in charge. And Tyrion seems to have interest in Sansa – she’s smart enough not to trust him, but he may also be the closest thing in the Lannister family to an ally.
Tyrion: Now Tyrion’s in King’s Landing, we ought to see a very interesting conversation with Littlefinger, probably resulting in Littlefinger losing his little finger, or something else. Oh, Tyrion’s a snake, but he’s just so fun. Seeing him jerk Cersei around, that’s just wonderful. And his plan to scare Joffrey straight doesn’t seem a bad one. Won’t work, but it should make things interesting. The meeting with Varys and Shae, Tyrion’s going to have his work cut out for him there. Should be fun.
Bran: The howling, the dreams… There’s magic in that boy. He’s going to be a force if he can figure it out. Eyes on the Walders. With any luck one of them will do something interesting.
Arya: First thing’s first – reports of a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell. Nymeria returned to the story at last. That’s going to be the thing that takes Yoren’s plans off the rails. And the Bull is the one the goldcloaks are looking for. Gendry – name’s familiar. And a quick flip back to GoT shows why. The blacksmith bastard of the late king. Well, no wonder they want him. Him and Arya are going to become close as they separate from the group soon enough.
Jon: I’m with Sam on this. Put me in an archive like that and I’d lose myself just admiring everything, looking through old manuscripts. They’re prepping to go beyond the wall, and I have a feeling it may actually be a good thing Sam selected an old map. Plus more good info about Aemon and his place in the Targaryen succession.
Things of importance:
* Nymeria’s been making a nuisance of herself – but she’s still alive.
* Tyrion has arrived at King’s Landing to course correct his nephew.
* Bran’s dreams
* Arya and Gendry are together and ought to find common cause.
* This Red Woman and Stannis are going to be formidable, even if Stannis doesn’t have many supporters.
* The fool. He’s got insight.
* Robb’s envoy to Theon’s father.
Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Going to keep it simple for now. One of Renly or Stannis will be dead before the end of the book.
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2014-08-10, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
Oh? What makes you say that?
1) I had never picked that out about Stannis's name before. Interesting. I suspect that it is very intentional. Now I have the urge to do a survey of all the names and their roots.
2) The fool scares the shell out of me. Always did. His predictions mean something, but.what I'm never sure.It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.
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2014-08-10, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire
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2014-08-10, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
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2014-08-12, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire