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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Spoiler: deaths throughout series
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    Of the four protagonists that die, two are extremely minor (Quentyn and Arys), while Cat only half died. So GRRM has managed to gain a rep for killing protagonists... by killing one protagonist in book one.


    Spoiler: Deaths
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    If by protagonist you mean "point of view character", then yes. Albeit he also kills off (almost?) every PoV character in an opening or closing book chapter, not that many of them are desperately important (you could make an argument for Kevan).

    In the first three books he does kill an average of two kings per book, not counting Khal Drogo or anyone in Slaver's Bay, mind, so while none of them are PoVs there's still a steady conveyor belt of significant characters heading to the knacker's yard. That's not even counting major establishment non-royal figures like Tywin, Lysa, Oberyn.

    I think it's easy to forget how affecting some of the minor characters' deaths can be, too. Jory and Rodrik Cassel, for instance, are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and overshadowed by the ensuing deaths of more major characters, but at the time it was quite a shock to see them killed.

    Of course, there is another apparent death not yet listed, and that's the closest thing the entire series has to a main character to date. But he might not be (probably isn't) dead.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    Spoiler: Deaths
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    Of course, there is another apparent death not yet listed, and that's the closest thing the entire series has to a main character to date. But he might not be (probably isn't) dead.
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    I presume no one has mentioned because no one is buying it for a minute. But there's a part of me that wonders if some of the earlier deaths just so we readers would believe that one.

    But then again
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    when I look into the future, all I see is Snow

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
    A Clash of Kings
    part two! ~100-~200!

    The first book was called A Game of Thrones, but this section could just as easily be entitled “Here’s a whole pile of new thrones on top of that.” And we finally get some insight into Theon – I’ve been wondering about that guy for a while, but there just hasn’t been enough to even make the slightest guess about him. Still early yet, so still setting up for the book, but things are growing clearer. And there’s still the matter of how each faction is interpreting the comet.

    Catelyn: So main things. Robb’s not taking too comfortably to the crown. Either very subtle foreshadowing that kingship won’t go over well or easily, or a good mark of character. As with the theory behind the Iron Throne, which I like, being king shouldn’t be easy. Ser Cleos is going to deliver Robb’s message to the Lannisters. Can’t say that looks likely to be taken well. Theon’s to go to his dad – we’ll cover that later, though. Harrenhal, from this chapter, seems to be being built up. Probably the climax of the book will be a battle there, judging by how much that place gets brought up. Catelyn and her uncle seem to be teasing a possible alliance with Renly. We’ll see about that, too.

    Tyrion: Janos Slynt to the Wall, and new head of the city guard. Tyrion’s not messing around with getting things in place. As suggested by the last chapter with Arya, Cersei has been systematically trying to expunge all evidence of Robert’s dalliances. Varys and his riddle are quite amusing, but it’s I have an idea what the answer is at this point, even if Tyrion doesn’t. Who killed Eddard Stark? Varys would take credit – he’s the shadow, the spider, the knowledge, and he told Ned to confess. And he probably had a hand in the shadows on the other side and advised Joffrey’s position. Sowing dissent among the Lannisters and eliminating an inconvenience like Ned would serve Varys doubly well than either alone.

    Arya: Not too much here. They see the burnt fields, pick up a woman and her child, the woman dies. There is still the child. So a dangling thread for now. Important at the end, though – Arya meets one of Nymeria’s pack. I wonder how the reunion’s going to go.

    Davos: Ooh, Onion Knight gets his own chapters now. This guy’s likeable enough. There’s really only one thing I want to talk about here, and it’s the Red Sword. The moment Stannis reached in with a padded glove, I knew that the Red Sword would be a real deal, but Stannis wasn’t going to have it. That sword ain’t it – Melisandre’s got power, but she’s a charlatan. This Saan guy’s got the right of it, and Stannis might have the most legitimate claim to the throne, but the dude has no sense of tact or politics.

    Theon: I said we’d get to him. At long last we get some concrete info about him, too. So his father led a rebellion, claimed a crown, and was pushed back hard by Ned and Robert, leading to Theon joining the Starks as a hostage. Whereas we didn’t get much personality out of him before, he’s pretty clearly revealed to be something of a self-important jerk here. His uncle seems humorless, but sharp and willing to put princelings in their place. As for Balon, well, a new side joins the conflict, and he doesn’t take kindly to Robb’s language. He’s not going to help Robb – he’s going to sack Winterfell.

    Daenerys: They’re striking out, Dany and her little band. We get a bit of development on Jorah – Dany surmises he’s in love with her, which puts a bit of the old school medieval romance into the story, where a knight’s love for his lady is the most sacred thing. As it says in Don Quijote, el caballero andante sin amores era árbol sin hojas y sin fruto y cuerpo sin alma. The knight errant without a lady love was a fruitless and leafless tree and a body without soul. That’s nice, having a knight in this story who harkens back to our own history of stories about knights. Wonder what the story with the dragonseekers is.


    Things of importance:

    * Nymeria’s been sent a scout and discovered Arya.
    * Theon’s dad has become a new side
    * The dragonseekers
    * Lightbringer (that name with the whole red deal means I’m just going to call that religion the Luciferian sect from now on)
    * Possible envoys to Renly from Robb’s camp
    * Tyrion’s rearranging King’s Landing

    Predictions pulled out of my ass:

    * The Greyjoys are going to attack Winterfell
    * Someone’s going to pull the real Burning Sword from a fire by the end of this book. Even odds it’s either Robb, Gendry, Jon, or someone we’ve not even met (or a real outside shot at being the Onion Knight).
    * We may get an alliance between Renly and Robb, but I’m not banking on it being long-lived.
    * Stannis will be the first side in this conflict to fall. Melisandre, however, not so much.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2014-08-15 at 12:23 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    I'd just like to say that a few of your predictions astound me (as in, I don't really predict what's going to happen or don't do it that far ahead).

    I'll never say which predictions these were though, so you'll have to keep reading. :P
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Your predictions are interesting. You're still at an early point in your understanding of how things work here.

    And you have to ask if the Red Woman really is a charlatan. I mean really.

    Though exercise. Think about the various religions that populate this world and who espouses them. Then think about their vested interests. That's not spoilered because I'm not saying more than that. At least not at this point.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Ha! That's a really clever touch of naming R'hllor's faith.

    Also, I have the feeling that Starks and political power do not like one another. It's just a thing. Though actually, I mean, it is a thing, as you saw in Book 1. The Stark lines come from a starkly different tradition of power (as compared to how those in King's Landing view power). It's an old tradition where the Lord is responsible for protecting their vassals.

    Guess that's what comes from being in the North.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Ooh, replies I can actually read! Now I'm wondering if any of the spoiler boxes from earlier in the thread might be non-spoilery now (probably very few).

    Okami, I'll take that as a compliment and we'll see what comes down the pipeline.

    hamlet, yeah, charlatan isn't precisely the best word, but it's the closest I could think of. There's definite power there, something real happening (though whether she's passing off her own skill at magic as divine favor is something I'm not willing to discount yet), but she's also pulling the wool over everyone's eyes with the burning sword business. Which makes me wonder just what her agenda is and where it diverges from that of Stannis.

    Another candidate for burning sword guy I forgot to mention - there's that red priest dude whose name I'm forgetting and who was mentioned in this section, but he's seeming a bit on the nose right now to be it.

    Carpe, thanks. And yeah, it's like Martin decided to take a few different models of feudal government and put them in a pot and see how they mix. Honestly, that's pretty fun right there.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    I think Thoros of Myr had his flaming sword mentioned in book 1.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    I think Thoros of Myr had his flaming sword mentioned in book 1.
    He did indeed. Although it was more foreshadowing Melisandre than anything else; he made his sword flame by coating it in oil, as a deliberate homage to the Flaming Sword of his god. Someone was complaining that he ruined more swords that way.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Ooh, replies I can actually read! Now I'm wondering if any of the spoiler boxes from earlier in the thread might be non-spoilery now (probably very few).
    Some of them are. Others are things like lists of every character that dies in the entire series, so it's probably best to avoid the boxes.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Ooh, replies I can actually read! Now I'm wondering if any of the spoiler boxes from earlier in the thread might be non-spoilery now (probably very few).
    Very few. Mostly just reiterations of the same old bickering fans of the series have over the years.

    hamlet, yeah, charlatan isn't precisely the best word, but it's the closest I could think of. There's definite power there, something real happening (though whether she's passing off her own skill at magic as divine favor is something I'm not willing to discount yet), but she's also pulling the wool over everyone's eyes with the burning sword business. Which makes me wonder just what her agenda is and where it diverges from that of Stannis.
    Yes, and no. I think that you're thinking about magic incorrectly here. Instead of thinking of it in a functional sense - i.e., I cast this spell and reliably get this effect - think a little closer to Tolkein's magic mixed up with Lovecraftian and Pulp magic. It's unreliable, squidgy, scary, and almost wholly messing around with forces man was not meant to mess around with.

    When real magic happens on screen in this series, you're never quite sure it's magic or not or just coincidence and a lot of what gets passed off as magic by various folks really is charlatanism.

    On top of that, Mellisandre is qualitatively and quantitatively . . . other . . . when you stack her next to other magic occurences in the books. She's not wholly faked, but not all, or much, of what she does or claims to do is what you're thinking of as magic. She's tapped into something, but what we just don't know.

    Watch for the three leeches.

    Another candidate for burning sword guy I forgot to mention - there's that red priest dude whose name I'm forgetting and who was mentioned in this section, but he's seeming a bit on the nose right now to be it.
    Thoros of Myr. A drinking buddy of Robert's from back in the day. He made his fiery sword by coating it in Alchemists' Fire and lighting it up. Ruined the sword every time. Lots of flash, not a lot of funciton.

    He's not out of the story yet.

    It's complicated.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Lots of flash, not a lot of function.
    That's a bit unfair. IIRC, he is mentioned to be a dangerous opponent in the tournament melees, because no-one wants to get near the guy with the flaming sword, and, again IIRC, he distinguished himself in the assault to some castle during the ironborn rebellion, again because a flaming sword gives you a different kind of edge in combat.

    Reminds me of how bayonets actually work. While they can theoretically be used to kill enemies, they are really meant as an intimidation device. When a bunch of soldiers go into close combat with bayonets on their guns, the defenders are far more likely to break formation and run for it, than they are to stay and fight. Same thing when a guy in red robes comes at you with a sword coated in alchemist fire, I'd say.

    And since the best way to survive a fight is to not have to face any opponent, I'd say that the intimidation factor of Thoros' flaming sword is well worth the cost of a measly sword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That's a bit unfair. IIRC, he is mentioned to be a dangerous opponent in the tournament melees, because no-one wants to get near the guy with the flaming sword, and, again IIRC, he distinguished himself in the assault to some castle during the ironborn rebellion, again because a flaming sword gives you a different kind of edge in combat.
    He distinguished himself because he was first over the wall. The flaming sword is only part of it - Thoros is a fearless warrior-priest, who will happily go charging into incredibly dangerous situations. He's scary for the reason that shock troops are scary in general, or for the reason that berserkers are scary. The sword is just a bonus.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That's a bit unfair. IIRC, he is mentioned to be a dangerous opponent in the tournament melees, because no-one wants to get near the guy with the flaming sword, and, again IIRC, he distinguished himself in the assault to some castle during the ironborn rebellion, again because a flaming sword gives you a different kind of edge in combat.

    Reminds me of how bayonets actually work. While they can theoretically be used to kill enemies, they are really meant as an intimidation device. When a bunch of soldiers go into close combat with bayonets on their guns, the defenders are far more likely to break formation and run for it, than they are to stay and fight. Same thing when a guy in red robes comes at you with a sword coated in alchemist fire, I'd say.

    And since the best way to survive a fight is to not have to face any opponent, I'd say that the intimidation factor of Thoros' flaming sword is well worth the cost of a measly sword.

    Grey Wolf
    I wasn't talking about Thoros himself, but his sword. It's not magical, just incendiary if you understand me.

    The man himself is very cool. He's really no slouch, just a lot like Robert.

    Of course, there are other considerations at play . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    I wasn't talking about Thoros himself, but his sword. It's not magical, just incendiary if you understand me.
    Fair enough. The sword itself is not that impressive, and certainly not prophecy worthy.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That's a bit unfair. IIRC, he is mentioned to be a dangerous opponent in the tournament melees, because no-one wants to get near the guy with the flaming sword, and...
    More importantly, the books point out that it freaks the holy heck out of the horses.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    More importantly, the books point out that it freaks the holy heck out of the horses.
    Not to mention any rational and sane human who gets close to it as well. I think it's Sandor Clegane who specifically mentions that it scares the hell out of him.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Not to mention any rational and sane human who gets close to it as well. I think it's Sandor Clegane who specifically mentions that it scares the hell out of him.
    When it comes to fire, I'm not sure Sandor is the most rational or sane person. It is pretty much his Kryptonite.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    When it comes to fire, I'm not sure Sandor is the most rational or sane person. It is pretty much his Kryptonite.
    To be perfectly honest, Sandor's not the most rational or sane person in general. Although he can't hold a candle to the raging insanity of his brother.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Fire is pretty high up there on the list of reasonable phobias. Like heights; not my own personal one but I get it. Anything that can kill you is a pretty understandable thing to be terrified of.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnome Alone View Post
    Fire is pretty high up there on the list of reasonable phobias. Like heights; not my own personal one but I get it. Anything that can kill you is a pretty understandable thing to be terrified of.
    Counterpoint: Just about anything can kill you. There's a difference between fear of drowning and fear of water.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Fire can kill you really, really easily though.

    Also it hurts a lot.
    Last edited by Gnome Alone; 2014-08-20 at 11:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
    A Clash of Kings
    part three! ~200-~300!

    Things are beginning to happen here. And officially leaving the establishing section of the novel for the beginnings of development. This section’s Arya and Tyrion heavy, and really this book kind of is so far. Counting the prologue, 45% of chapters so far have been from their perspectives. They’re going to be where a good deal of the events go down in this book.

    Jon: Empty towns. Not ominous at all. Nope, not even a little. I’m beginning to think this Mance Rayder guy is either gathering the Wildings somewhere deep up there, or he’s dead and there pretty much aren’t too many people left. Oh, and I recently rewatched How to Train Your Dragon and cannot help but picture Samwell Tarly as Fishlegs now.

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    Arya: They find some shelter near God’s Eye and Lannister knights come and attack. And it’s Tywin’s bannerman, and they tend toward burning stuff, which means Gregor’s around somewhere. So the kids get out, Lommy’s injured, and Arya may have set the three chained up guys free early enough they could get out. Will have to see if they turn up again.

    Tyrion: Well, Cersei’s not so great at politics when you get her angry – Stannis and his letter sure got her in a tizzy. She’s lucky to have Tyrion around to feed her ideas on how to make Stannis look bad. This chain business is interesting, but I don’t quite know what to make of it yet. And Tyrion meets secretly with Varys yet again – and Littlefinger looks like he might be getting his hands into too many cookie jars for his own good.

    Bran: Bran standing in as lord here. I’m sure the details of the Lady Hornwood’s heir prospects will be important, but they aren’t much right now. Not when the real important thing has happened: Bran remembers. And if he remembers, a whole lot of Lannister effort might just be wasted.

    Tyrion: So Pycelle is pretty easily cowed by Tyrion, so there’s one duck. Varys is doing his thing, but his and Tyrion’s goals might overlap. Cersei’s, well, Cersei. And Littlefinger’s looking more and more like an enemy to Tyrion now. And Tyrion plays (or he thinks he does, hard to tell) Littlefinger and Varys like fiddles in getting Myrcella and Tommen out of King’s Landing and gaining allies. Cersei won’t like it, but more pressing matters, of course. Renly’s on the move, gathering support, but not attacking yet. Oh, and Thorne’s arrived, but he’s been put off. Wonder what the Hand will make of the hand.

    Sansa: So the floppy knight has taken his turn as fool to reconsider his life, and he has dedicated himself to helping Sansa. As someone who thought that coming to King’s Landing would be just like the stories she’s heard and read, Sansa’s in great luck. Now she gets to live one of those stories. And because they’re relevant here, some quotes from Don Quijote which can be related to Sansa.

    Before coming to terms with Joffrey being, well, Joffrey:

    Es natural condición de las mujeres desdeñar a quien las quiere y amar a quien las aborrece

    It is the natural condition of women to disdain those who love them and love those who loathe them
    And this one covers both our Floppy knight and the fool in Stannis’ court.

    La más discreta figura de la comedia es la del bobo, porque no lo ha de ser el que quiere dar a entender que es simple

    The most discreet figure in comedy is the fool, because the one who wishes to play the role of fool must not be one
    Sandor seems very keen on helping Sansa, telling her implicitly to get a lot better at lying.

    Arya: So Gendry has Arya figured out, and she comes clean with him, and they go scouting. Yoren’s dead, and it’s just the four of them and Weasel – no sign of the three chained up guys. Lommy’s all about yielding. They get themselves caught by Gregor, and wind up leading back to Lommy and Hot Pie – Weasel cut and run. Lommy, injured as he is, gets speared for his trouble. Yielding. Heck of a strategy.


    Things of importance:
    * Fools everywhere
    * Bran remembers
    * Thorne is in King’s Landing
    * Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie are caught
    * Sansa has a knight
    * Tyrion’s machinations. Including the chain

    Predictions pulled out of my ass:
    * Weasel and the three chained guys are at large. My guess is the wolves have something to do with Gendry and Arya escaping (Hot Pie dies), and maybe Weasel or the guys are involved.
    * Harrenhal’s going to be the big climactic thing in this book, and it’s going to bring Arya, Tywin, and Robb all to one place. Possibly Stannis and Renly too, who knows.
    * Bran remembering won’t do much good right now, but it might lend some credence to certain of Stannis’ claims.
    * Coming up on something big next time we see Jon – only so long before the ranging beyond the Wall turns something up.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2014-08-21 at 01:04 PM.
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    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    But Sam's a lot smarter than Fishlegs. :o

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    Hm, he's going off track for once.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    That's true. I just had the thought while watching, and couldn't help but put the two together on a visual level.
    Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Things are beginning to happen here. And officially leaving the establishing section of the novel for the beginnings of development. This section’s Arya and Tyrion heavy, and really this book kind of is so far. Counting the prologue, 45% of chapters so far have been from their perspectives. They’re going to be where a good deal of the events go down in this book.
    Yeah, despite the ensemble there is usually a preeminent POV, with the first two books tracking the careers of the Hands of the king. If AGoT were a standalone, you could accurately subtitle it the Tragedy of Eddard Stark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    But Sam's a lot smarter than Fishlegs. :o

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    Hm, he's going off track for once.
    Uh, but Fishlegs has memorized the entirety of the Draconomicon, so they might be even.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    You altruistic weirdo you!
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    To be perfectly honest, Sandor's not the most rational or sane person in general. Although he can't hold a candle to the raging insanity of his brother.
    Sure. But when it comes to fire specifically, well, the guy's got a burn bad enough that he's basically missing half his face. I seem to remember visible skull, outright holes all the way through the cheek somewhere, etc. described in the book. It's the sort of thing that makes one a little more fire averse than the norm.

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    Then there's how he got said burn.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Oh, and I recently rewatched How to Train Your Dragon and cannot help but picture Samwell Tarly as Fishlegs now.
    ...and now, the next time I'll watch HTTYD, I'll think to ASOIAF. Should I thank you?
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    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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    Default Re: Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    ...and now, the next time I'll watch HTTYD, I'll think to ASOIAF. Should I thank you?
    The real question though is who gets to be Khaleesi?
    I've started streaming again.


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