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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    It is reasonable, the only problem is that everyone can invest 1-for-1 in tumble and get the same max ranks now, so all classed enemies and some monsters will be able to easily avoid AoOs. If you don't want to mess with the skill system, it might be easier to just give rogues (and ninjas) and monks the ability to just auto-succeed at tumble around level 3-5 as a bonus class feature...early enough to not have to wait long for it, late enough to make it pricy as a dip for someone else. It sounds crazy, but seriously...there are so many options to move w/o any chance of provoking for the spellcasters in PF, and rogue and monk really need the help.
    Or just give rogue/ninja/monk obscenely high bonuses on it, like 2 x level or so, but I think giving them auto-success is just better. Later on you can improve it to be auto-success and still move at full speed.
    That's a good idea. I'll have to put some thought into how exactly to implement it. Rogue talent, perhaps? Scrub that, it'd just be a 2 level dip.
    Last edited by FidgetySquirrel; 2014-07-12 at 12:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Just add it as a class feature. They need the help, and way more than that, honestly.

    No need to make it a feat tax.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Just add it as a class feature. They need the help, and way more than that, honestly.

    No need to make it a feat tax.
    That's true. I certainly wasn't thinking feat, that's for sure. Probably a LV 5 feature for the rogue, since all they get there is SA, anyway.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    Why does everyone hate the rogue so much? I have never ever run into effectiveness problems with rogues in pathfinder, and I'm shocked to see so much hate for them when everything I know about them indicates pathfinder actually improved the rogue. rogue talents are awesome, sneak attack has plenty of ways to be useful, and with knife master and/or scout archetypes the rogue gets even better!

    I get sneak attacks on charges, i get d8 sneak attack dice, i'm almost impossible to disarm totally (I always have a knife on me somewhere), I can stealth and run full speed, i can use magic, i can cause bleed, get extra feats, etc. Where is all this rogue hate coming from?
    Because while the PF rogue is better in many ways than the 3.5 one, the game around it changed so much as to make it worse relative to the game around it.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    The rogue player in my group has not been having any problems tumbling around the enemies to flank, including monsters. He is bothered by his perceived inability to hit. I can see he doesn't hit almost all the time, but I find he does hit more often than he thinks he does. He would agree a rogue archer doesn't work. He tried that, but it was so much work for little gain.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by FidgetySquirrel View Post
    That's a good idea. I'll have to put some thought into how exactly to implement it. Rogue talent, perhaps? Scrub that, it'd just be a 2 level dip.
    Diving all rogue talents into advanced and regular kinda ticks me off too. They get this whole "every regular talent must suck so people don't dip" (because apparently dipping is evil) mentality so you get very few non advanced talents that actually feel awesome. Y'know, instead of jsut making it like, a level 6 or higher talent or something.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Or even level 4. There's rage powers and discoveries that require level 4, 6, 8... pretty much any even level above 2 (for such "choose from a list" features that are every even level....most tend to be) is fair game. There is no good reason for rogue talents to be either available off the bat or level 10+ with no in-between (or options that require above level 10, either). That said, even for ones that are balanced on being available at level 2... most are horrible other than the bonus feat options.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    I have a new question regarding one of my own favorites. I noted that I enjoy the Samurai, but I have a minor quibble: his sword. He gets wakizashi and Katana for free, which is awesome... if you are going one handed or two weapon fighting. Problem is that his weapon specialty ability only lets him choose one of four weapons, and only for the chosen weapon can he get fighter feats. Except while the Katana is an awesome one handed sword, especially since you get it for free in terms of proficiency... he can't take the slightly bigger and better Nodachi instead for two handing. I mean, he can use it, but his class features don't give him the option of specializing in it.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Or even level 4. There's rage powers and discoveries that require level 4, 6, 8... pretty much any even level above 2 (for such "choose from a list" features that are every even level....most tend to be) is fair game. There is no good reason for rogue talents to be either available off the bat or level 10+ with no in-between (or options that require above level 10, either).
    Some, not many but some, Rogue Talents have pre-reqs. Most are along the lines of "must have a Skill Rank in Ride", and a couple have "must have this other Rogue Talent first", so there is some area for making it a 'basic' Rogue Talent that is not available at level 2.
    A thematic requirement would be best, but even just saying "must have 2d6 Sneak Attack" would work well enough to keep away (most of) the 2 level dippers.

    We could also just tie it to an existing Rogue Talent (like must have Peerless Maneuver), but probably best if it's not a strict A >then> B type thing.


    Fun fact: There is _ONE_ Rogue Talent (counting BOTH Basic and Advanced) that has a Class Feature as a requirement. Sacrifice Self from Champions of Purity requires Evasion AND Improved Evasion.
    Evasion is readily available at Rogue 2 and the Improved version is an Advanced Talent.
    Yet, for some reason, Sacrifice Self is a 'Basic' Talent that requires an Advanced Talent to take...The ONLY way this makes sense is with Multiclassing.

    Another fun fact: A Rogue can take Improved Evasion withOUT having basic Evasion first. Sadly, there are only 2 archetypes that trade away Evasion. Neither is all that great.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Thanks for all the input on the tumbling thing. I talked it over with my players, and they seemed most receptive to the idea of it being a standard class feature, as opposed to a rogue talent, so I think I'll go with that, unforeseen silliness notwithstanding.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Add me as another one who loves the Warder from Path of War, specifically the Zweihander Sentinel archetype. For base PF, definitely either the Paladin or Ranger, though the new Slayer does look particularly tasty. If I were to throw in AD&D as well, it would be Ranger (being that Fighter/Mage, my all time favorite 2E class(es), doesn't fit this criteria). The 1E Ranger was just a really fun class.
    Last edited by Jigawatts; 2014-07-13 at 02:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Ive not read the completed path of war and I generally dreamscarred press, most of what i hear for them that isn't worship of how they are "so much better than paizo" is that their stuff is tends to be the stronger than anything and everything that should be of comparable power. It may not be true, but it IS what I hear.

    Would two handing an oversized Katana work for a samurai?
    Quote Originally Posted by Captnq View Post
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    Ive not read the completed path of war and I generally dreamscarred press, most of what i hear for them that isn't worship of how they are "so much better than paizo" is that their stuff is tends to be the stronger than anything and everything that should be of comparable power. It may not be true, but it IS what I hear.
    Only because they compare the Dreamscarred Press stuff with the weak Paizo stuff like the fighter versus any class from Path of War.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oazard View Post
    Only because they compare the Dreamscarred Press stuff with the weak Paizo stuff like the fighter versus any class from Path of War.
    This. The PoW classes are pretty much middle T3, comparable to say the magus IME. Which naturally means they do blow Paizo martials out of the water, especially when it comes to flexibility, while they're still considerably less powerful than full casters and the summoner.

    As for favorite martial classes, I think the warder comes out on top for me as well, closely followed by the warlord. Both are interesting tactically, have good well-balanced mechanics designed for teamwork, and great flavor IMO.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    Ive not read the completed path of war and I generally dreamscarred press, most of what i hear for them that isn't worship of how they are "so much better than paizo" is that their stuff is tends to be the stronger than anything and everything that should be of comparable power. It may not be true, but it IS what I hear.

    Would two handing an oversized Katana work for a samurai?
    Here's the issue with what you hear:

    Nothing should be of comparable power to the fighter, rogue, or monk, because nothing should be as comparatively weak.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Recently had a fighter archer build I used to awesome effect. Most devastating character, most of the time, in that game.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    The Fighter, yes, the humble fighter, because with one class, you can have a lot of viable options.
    You can make from a fighter a great Archer, a formidable Two Handed Damage dealer, a efficient two-hander with a shield or another weapon, and a good brawler using an archetype or not, it was not the case in 3.5 but it can be in PF.

    I'm not speaking of the versatility of the fighter but the fact that with one class, you have quite a lot of options, for me it is less true with the barbarian...

    PF give me pleasure to use a Fighter in the game, the main isssue for me is still the lack of skill points and the lack of class skills really in accordance of a versatile fighter... but anyway, still love this class since ADD1...

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    3.5: Totemist is probably my favorite martial.
    PF: Ninja, Bard or Alchemist (Hyde.)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    My experience with PF Rogue basically involved begging other players to stay away from "rogue skills" and trap finding abilities (even stuff like using detect magic - which is at will - to find traps) so I didn't feel obsolete because each other person could do several of the typical rogue functions better than I could.
    There are plenty of dangerous nonmagical traps, and also, recasting detect magic involves a verbal component when the party is trying to be stealthy. Not saying rogues can't be made obsolete, but totally removing all of their functionality takes more resources than many folks are willing to commit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    3.There are plenty of dangerous nonmagical traps, and also, recasting detect magic involves a verbal component when the party is trying to be stealthy. Not saying rogues can't be made obsolete, but totally removing all of their functionality takes more resources than many folks are willing to commit.
    I didn't even bother mentioning non-magical traps because that's even worse. Anyone can find those via skill check now, and it uses Perception. The skill EVERYONE maxes and that uses one of the MAD rogue's least important ability modifiers: wisdom. Trapfinding bonus helps, but other classes get perception bonuses, too (except better, since it applies to all perception). Druid or Cleric with Feather domain; Archaeologist Bard; Ranger in a favored terrain (or all the time once he can cast Terrain Bond); etc... And of course a wisdom caster's base 20 in the stat alone goes a long way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I didn't even bother mentioning non-magical traps because that's even worse. Anyone can find those via skill check now, and it uses Perception. The skill EVERYONE maxes and that uses one of the MAD rogue's least important ability modifiers: wisdom. Trapfinding bonus helps, but other classes get perception bonuses, too (except better, since it applies to all perception).[/ Druid or Cleric with Feather domain; Archaeologist Bard; Ranger in a favored terrain (or all the time once he can cast Terrain Bond); etc... And of course a wisdom caster's base 20 in the stat alone goes a long way.
    All true, but just because the entire party is rolling on something doesn't mean you won't be the one to find it. And since you are the stealthy one, you have better odds of taking point undetected (and therefore suffering less distance penalties.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    How is rogue the "stealthy one" beyond just having stealth as a class skill and often (but not always; the least sucky PF rogue builds seem to be the "Str Rogue" types) having high dex? Lots of other classes can and do field those same attributes or easily can with a trait. Many classes are better, such as having shapeshifting abilities and/or spells to buff their stealthiness or gain invisibility and so forth.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    At least they can actually get HiPS in this version.

    Even if it is the worst version of HiPS in pathfinder (which kind of just reinforces your point when the 'stealthy class' gets the worst version of the stealth feature).
    Last edited by squiggit; 2014-07-18 at 02:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    How is rogue the "stealthy one" beyond just having stealth as a class skill and often (but not always; the least sucky PF rogue builds seem to be the "Str Rogue" types) having high dex?
    Other classes are worse at it (clerics and fighters for instance tend to wear medium to heavy armor, which both limits their dex bonus and carries penalties on top of that.) Rogues also have talents like Fast Stealth, Trap Spotter and Canny Observer. For traps with attack rolls or reflex saves, you have both trap sense and uncanny dodge as well.

    I'm not saying they're the best at it - nor even ninjas - but I do think there is a certain amount of exaggeration that goes into filing them away as gimped into uselessness.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    Ive not read the completed path of war and I generally dreamscarred press, most of what i hear for them that isn't worship of how they are "so much better than paizo" is that their stuff is tends to be the stronger than anything and everything that should be of comparable power. It may not be true, but it IS what I hear.
    Psion & Wilder tend to be weaker overall than Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid. Vitalist's closest comparison point is Cleric or Alchemist; it tends to be on the power level of the latter. Dread & Cryptic are both fairly weak (compare to Bard and Rogue, respectively), with Dread being weaker than its equivalent and Cryptic being slightly stronger through manifesting. Psychic Warrior is about on the level of Paladin or Magus, while Tactician is about on the level of Bard. Soulknife compares favorably to Fighter but lags behind Barbarian in the same niche. Aegis is roughly equal to Magus.


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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Other classes are worse at it (clerics and fighters for instance tend to wear medium to heavy armor, which both limits their dex bonus and carries penalties on top of that.) Rogues also have talents like Fast Stealth, Trap Spotter and Canny Observer. For traps with attack rolls or reflex saves, you have both trap sense and uncanny dodge as well.

    I'm not saying they're the best at it - nor even ninjas - but I do think there is a certain amount of exaggeration that goes into filing them away as gimped into uselessness.
    ....so you think not having proficiency in heavy armor is an advantage?
    Fighters can take off their heavy armor, or not wear it in the first place, if they think stealth is more important than the AC advantage. Rogues don't have that option without spending feats, because they aren't proficient.
    Now, if a lightly-armored rogue actually had an advantage over a lightly-armored fighter or cleric as far as stealth was concerned, you'd have a point. But they don't. They have the disadvantage of not being able to choose to wear heavy armor without penalty...and that's it. They don't have a monk-style bonus for not wearing armor (however bad that is, at least the monk is given something). There are no classes which "must" wear heavy armor. There are some which have the option of wearing heavy armor, but that doesn't mean they are worse at stealth. That would be like saying wizards who ban transmutation and conjuration are somehow better at blasting because they have fewer non-blasting options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    ....so you think not having proficiency in heavy armor is an advantage?
    No, that's not what I said at all. Rather, Rogues are not expected to have heavy armor as an option.

    Sure you can build a dex fighter or even dex cleric in light armor (for whatever reason.) Without a bonus damage mechanic the former will most likely suffer however, while the latter - well, it's a T1 class so there's really no contest if the player cares to optimize enough to fill such an unconventional role.

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Now, if a lightly-armored rogue actually had an advantage over a lightly-armored fighter or cleric as far as stealth was concerned, you'd have a point. But they don't.
    They have several advantages over a fighter actually - rogue talents/advanced talents, skill mastery, FCB bonuses for certain races (e.g. Dhampir and Fetchling), more skill points to let them get by with a lower Int, bonus damage to let them get by with a lower Str, etc. As for a cleric - yeah, a well-built cleric can beat them, but what does that prove besides having players who don't care about anything below T1?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    There are no classes which "must" wear heavy armor. There are some which have the option of wearing heavy armor, but that doesn't mean they are worse at stealth.
    You're right, the proficiencies don't make them worse at stealth - it's the lack of other supporting class features that do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    Why does everyone hate the rogue so much? I have never ever run into effectiveness problems with rogues in pathfinder, and I'm shocked to see so much hate for them when everything I know about them indicates pathfinder actually improved the rogue. rogue talents are awesome, sneak attack has plenty of ways to be useful, and with knife master and/or scout archetypes the rogue gets even better!

    I get sneak attacks on charges, i get d8 sneak attack dice, i'm almost impossible to disarm totally (I always have a knife on me somewhere), I can stealth and run full speed, i can use magic, i can cause bleed, get extra feats, etc. Where is all this rogue hate coming from?
    agreed, pathfinder rogues are fantastic dual wielding damage machines that have a ridiculously high amount of skills to make them be able to handle anything. at character creation i rolled an 18 and a 16 and i really hadto force myself to ake sure the 18 went to dex as much as i would love to be able to have and make all the skill checks. rogues are a force to be reckoned with in PF. they aren't the top 2 tiers by far but i would wedge em into 3rd or 4th without question

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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    The top list goes for the Paladin, because he's insanely good. Combine that with Cavalier and you have a monster (A former DM let a player combine the levels for the mount, that was... Interesting to watch).

    Then there's the cavalier and the fighter, battling for my respect. And finally, the gunslinger, mostly because -as it was said above- it rewards stunts.

    Although barbarians and rangers are good, they're not my sort of warrior, even if I started playing D&D as a ranger, and still find the class awesome.
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    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Since this thread has an explicite Pathfinder tag:

    The Barbarian, never played one yet but it's the class that intrigues me the most.
    Why: it's a mundane class that can not only dish out pain, it also gets tools and defenses against magic, and at least a little out of combat utility by way of skills.
    I'd roll one in our current game, but it wouldn't really fit for story/roleplaying reasons.

    Runner-up: a tie between Ranger and Paladin.
    Paladin: Really greatly upgraded compared to the 3.5 Core version. Less MAD, much better Smite, reasonable class features, interesting archetypes.
    Downsides: lack of skills; one of your class features is the ability to lose all of your class features with a single action.

    Ranger: can be very satisfying to play as a Switch Hitter. In both Melee and Ranged, you are _almost_ as good as a Fighter specialized in either style, AND you've got a pile of skills that make for excellent out of combat utility (at least at low levels, before skills get replaced by magic).

    If 3.5 classes are a thing, then scratch everything I said above, then the Warblade is the undisputed King of the Hill. Hail to the King!
    Last edited by Firechanter; 2014-07-21 at 03:55 PM.
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Favorite Martial Base Classes and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwasforger03 View Post
    I have a new question regarding one of my own favorites. I noted that I enjoy the Samurai, but I have a minor quibble: his sword. He gets wakizashi and Katana for free, which is awesome... if you are going one handed or two weapon fighting. Problem is that his weapon specialty ability only lets him choose one of four weapons, and only for the chosen weapon can he get fighter feats. Except while the Katana is an awesome one handed sword, especially since you get it for free in terms of proficiency... he can't take the slightly bigger and better Nodachi instead for two handing. I mean, he can use it, but his class features don't give him the option of specializing in it.
    which samurai?

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