Black Dragon and Red Cloak

[DiamondHooHaMan]

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

[Keltest]

It is of course possible, but quite frankly there was no need for the dragon to seek allies. The dragon could not possibly have foreseen the soul splice, and if it weren't for that V would have utterly lost.

[Morty]

And how would she know about him, much less consider asking him for help? She might have heard that a powerful goblin cleric had conquered Azure City, although I honestly can't imagine dragons care a whole lot about humanoid politics - and everyone probably paid more attention to his epic-level lich sorcerer boss anyway. But how would she come to the conclusion that he might help her?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If she was aware of their existence and capabilities, it is possible that she may have allied herself with them (although it is quite possible that Redcloak didn't gain his 17th level of Cleric until afterwards, so he wouldn't have been able to provide True Resurrection), but why would she be seeking allies in the first place? It can be seen that her focus was more in vengeance, something that she (barring unforseen fiendish intervention) could have easily pulled off.

[factotum]

If she was aware of their existence and capabilities, it is possible that she may have allied herself with them (although it is quite possible that Redcloak didn't gain his 17th level of Cleric until afterwards, so he wouldn't have been able to provide True Resurrection)

No "possible" about it--it's definite; Redcloak dinged 17th level sometime shortly before strip #826 (given his comment about Implosion being a "new spell level" for him), which was long after the black dragon died. In addition, I think the dragon had her own prejudices about non-draconic species that would probably have made any sort of alliance unlikely.

[Jay R]

If this had happened, it would have prevented the soul splice, the rescue of O-Chul, the Familicide spell, the death of all the Draketooths, and pretty much the entire plot from that point on.

[orrion]

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

How would the ABD have figured out who Team Evil was, and why would she have bothered to?

As shown in the comic, she was fully capable of exacting vengeance herself. She could have gone and killed V's family at any point. The only reason she didn't was because she first wanted V to know who was doing it, why she was doing it, and that V was utterly powerless to stop it.

Also, the ABD didn't care at all about the other party members. She made no effort to include them in any of her plans. Her vendetta was wholly against V.

[Keltest]

How would the ABD have figured out who Team Evil was, and why would she have bothered to?

As shown in the comic, she was fully capable of exacting vengeance herself. She could have gone and killed V's family at any point. The only reason she didn't was because she first wanted V to know who was doing it, why she was doing it, and that V was utterly powerless to stop it.

Also, the ABD didn't care at all about the other party members. She made no effort to include them in any of her plans. Her vendetta was wholly against V.

The Oracle of course.

[orrion]

The Oracle of course.

Given that the Oracle avoided Xykon it's unlikely that he would do something like send the ABD Team Evil's way on his own initiative, and there wasn't really anything for the ABD to ask that he would answer "Team Evil" or something similar. She came to the Oracle for something specific - to find her son's killer. She didn't go to him to get help for doing it, and I'm even sure it would be reasonable to answer "Team Evil" in the event she did ask whether there was anyone who could help. The Oracle also wouldn't have answered "Redcloak" if the ABD asked for someone who could resurrect her son because Redcloak wasn't level 17 at that time.

[Keltest]

Given that the Oracle avoided Xykon it's unlikely that he would do something like send the ABD Team Evil's way on his own initiative, and there wasn't really anything for the ABD to ask that he would answer "Team Evil" or something similar. She came to the Oracle for something specific - to find her son's killer. She didn't go to him to get help for doing it, and I'm even sure it would be reasonable to answer "Team Evil" in the event she did ask whether there was anyone who could help. The Oracle also wouldn't have answered "Redcloak" if the ABD asked for someone who could resurrect her son because Redcloak wasn't level 17 at that time.

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

[Nilehus]

Good adventurer, Evil adventurer, both would gladly skin her on sight for armor. Why should she trust that this group of adventurers is any different from the ones that killed her husband or her son? Because they're Evil? Just means they'd probably make her suffer more than a Good group, or harness her soul for magic items or something.

[BroomGuys]

This is one that the Giant has actually answered directly. We can assume that something prevented the ABD from seeking out RC for True Res, but showing that thing would've dragged the story down and been generally uninteresting. And as he mentions in the linked post, True Res shouldn't exist because it ruins stories.

Edit: I guess I should say showing it would have been "subjectively uninteresting for a potentially large number of readers" rather than "generally uninteresting."

[orrion]

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.

[Keltest]

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.

Redcloak has been shown to be willing to go out of his way to go after the Order, and the premise of the thread is a "what if" situation where she is willing, so that's sort of an assumption inherent in the discussion.

[137beth]

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

But she had no reason to ask that, because she assumed she was fully capable of getting revenge on her own.
If she had asked "are there any 17th level clerics who would be willing to TR him?", the answer would still have been no, since RC wasn't 17th level at that time.
Once bringing him back was off the table, the only thing she wanted was revenge. She didn't need help to get revenge, so she didn't ask.

[Jasdoif]

A big problem I see with the ABD allying with Redcloak is that their goals would be incompatible. The ABD left Vaarsuvius alive to suffer, agonizing over the inability to save his/her family. Redcloak, meanwhile, wants to stop threats to the plan...such as the Order of the Stick. Letting Vaarsuvius live after defeat would be a loose end that I don't see Redcloak willing to leave.

And if killing Vaarsuvius was acceptable...the ABD was clearly capable of doing so without any outside assistance, so there would be no need for an alliance.

[Keltest]

But she had no reason to ask that, because she assumed she was fully capable of getting revenge on her own.
If she had asked "are there any 17th level clerics who would be willing to TR him?", the answer would still have been no, since RC wasn't 17th level at that time.
Once bringing him back was off the table, the only thing she wanted was revenge. She didn't need help to get revenge, so she didn't ask.

Of course, and I flat out said that in my very first post. But if we go into every "what if" thread and just shoot down the entire premise of the thread, then nobody is going to have a good time.

[Kish]

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.

Indeed, there is an excellent chance that if she had approached them, Xykon would have killed her (because she was there would have been enough of a reason).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No "possible" about it--it's definite; Redcloak dinged 17th level sometime shortly before strip #826 (given his comment about Implosion being a "new spell level" for him), which was long after the black dragon died. In addition, I think the dragon had her own prejudices about non-draconic species that would probably have made any sort of alliance unlikely.

Ah, I had forgotten which strip he had cast Implosion in. If it had been closer to around when Vaarsuvius attacked, I may have been willing to have him get that level before the attack, but it wasn't.

[Darth Paul]

Indeed, there is an excellent chance that if she had approached them, Xykon would have killed her (because she was there would have been enough of a reason).

He would have had a great reason; he needed a new ride after what happened to his old one. A new model, and in black; who could resist?

[CaDzilla]

Evil isn't one big happy family. Plus, even though she was evil, she was CE, very individualistic. If she wanted something, she took it.

[Jay R]

Be careful how you phrase questions to an Oracle.

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

:"Yes."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Be careful how you phrase questions to an Oracle.



:"Yes."

The Oracle may be slightly more willing to help a dragon, not only because the deity that gives the Oracle his powers is also very close with many dragons, but also because being cheeky to a dragon is usually not a good idea.

Edit: Not that I think the ABD would be asking that question

[Vinyadan]

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

As someone noticed, RC wasn't able at casting TR yet. When he first shows use of 9th level spells, he says something about the thrill of a new spell level, so he couldn't have had it for very long.

The quoted comment of the Giant solves many other troubles.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

We know that Dorukan had someone trying to resurrect Lirian. Since he didn't have the body around, it's very possible that the spell was TR. However, there were the conditions not to allow the spell to succeed. I think it would be just like this every time: even when the spell is around and available, there will likely be a condition to avoid it being effective, to safeguard the story.

[Vinsfeld]

as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

I don't think Redcloak is ready to be a father

[orrion]

Redcloak has been shown to be willing to go out of his way to go after the Order, and the premise of the thread is a "what if" situation where she is willing, so that's sort of an assumption inherent in the discussion.

He has? He never saw them between the Dungeon of Dorukan and Azure City. He didn't seek them out during the battle for Azure City. He had 2 members of the Order under his nose for 3 1/2 months after that and as far as we know never encountered them nor made an effort to. Vaarsuvius came to them, and the situation at Girard's Gate was less "out of his way" and more "directly in front of his face." Where has Redcloak shown this willingness to seek out the Order that you're talking about?

.... It should be rather obvious by now that I'm arguing against the premise of the thread.

He would have had a great reason; he needed a new ride after what happened to his old one. A new model, and in black; who could resist?

His old ride was undead and he could control it flawlessly with his mind. Indeed, how could he resist killing the ABD right off to get that new ride?

[137beth]

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html"]\Plus, even though she was evil, she was CE, very individualistic.\

She was?

He has? He never saw them between the Dungeon of Dorukan and Azure City. He didn't seek them out during the battle for Azure City. He had 2 members of the Order under his nose for 3 1/2 months after that and as far as we know never encountered them nor made an effort to. Vaarsuvius came to them, and the situation at Girard's Gate was less "out of his way" and more "directly in front of his face." Where has Redcloak shown this willingness to seek out the Order that you're talking about?

.... It should be rather obvious by now that I'm arguing against the premise of the thread.

The first time Redcloak was really interested in killing the Order was outside Girard's rift. At that point, the Order was not "out of his way." And, of course, it was long after the dragon had been killed.

[Killer Angel]

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

The simplest answer, is that it was a personal Revenge.

[Jay R]

The Oracle may be slightly more willing to help a dragon, ...

Doesn't matter. That was the exact, complete answer to the question as phrased.

[Keltest]

Doesn't matter. That was the exact, complete answer to the question as phrased.

I would think the oracle would be somewhat smarter than to try and scam an Ancient Dragon of any color.