So... I gave my PC's Treasure and this is what happened.

[LimSindull]

Last night I gave out treasure to my adventurers and they split it up eight different ways, divided it six times argued to the point of murder and complained for at least an hour (probably more like thirty minutes) before they all went with the original split and some of the characters bought back their magic items from the gold pool at half price. (everyone still got an equal share of the treasure. The arguing got everyone in a sour mood and the warlock who sold the main ticket item started complaining that he should have just kept it and sold it later for his own use. (Even though he first made a point to explain to everyone that he was going to sell it and didn't want to have much more gold than everyone.)
I was thinking about only giving gold value and not items, but, then the characters would know when they got story based items.

Do you guys deal with this kind of lunacy when handling treasure? And does anyone have any tips for making these types of arguments less likely.

[Jormengand]

My party consisting of a sword-and-board fighter, a TWF rogue, a wizard and an archer ranger (with a back-up short sword), I conveniently leave lying about a longsword +1, a breastplate +1, a rapier +1, two short swords +1, and a light mace with custom powers allowing extra spells/day.

Suddenly apparent wands of CLW are given to the NPC cleric for emergency use when he's out of spells.

There is no arguing over who gets what treasure. Blissful.

[draken50]

I tend to give less treasure, at least at lower levels. At higher levels, due the potentially economy shattering possibilities I tend to try to keep magical treasure more set to the players.

I also tend to have a preference for providing wondrous items and the like, that tend to be more interesting rather than crunchy. Mostly though my players tend to get along well and are less oriented on trinkets themselves.

Ultimately D&D can be rough in this regard as players often times prefer more customization treasure to better match their concepts and builds. Ultimately it's really up to the Game Master, and the communication with the players. A player who chose to specialize in dual wielding falchion may really want some keen ones, but I prefer to leave custom creations as something specifically built for the character, often after providing some kind of combination of cash or deed.

[Atanvarno]

In my most recent game, I decided to just peg character wealth to WBL and gloss over loot completely.

It has been working out well, players can put as much effort as they want into it, and we don't get bogged down in the bookkeeping of trying to make sure everyone gets a fair share.

[Averis Vol]

I love giving out loot, more importantly, I always, ALWAYS give out random loot, for a couple reasons. First, because I like the idea of complete randomness, it's a treat as much for me as it is for my party to find out what they are going to get. secondly, it widens the variety of items they get, because something they might never buy personally could come in handy at a really climactic moment. And third, it adds a bit of diversity, instead of using the same greatsword all game, if the fighter finds a +1 colliding greatclub, he's probably going to switch to that over his +1 greatsword.

Sometimes I have multiple types of characters in the party, so as a group we've decided to use the system of "Whoever needs the item the most gets it, if two people need it, they bid on it.) thatt way, if the fighter and the paladin both want the great club, they could pay into the pot, and whoever gives the most gets it, and no one can complain it was unfair.

[Thrudd]

Last night I gave out treasure to my adventurers and they split it up eight different ways, divided it six times argued to the point of murder and complained for at least an hour (probably more like thirty minutes) before they all went with the original split and some of the characters bought back their magic items from the gold pool at half price. (everyone still got an equal share of the treasure. The arguing got everyone in a sour mood and the warlock who sold the main ticket item started complaining that he should have just kept it and sold it later for his own use. (Even though he first made a point to explain to everyone that he was going to sell it and didn't want to have much more gold than everyone.)
I was thinking about only giving gold value and not items, but, then the characters would know when they got story based items.

Do you guys deal with this kind of lunacy when handling treasure? And does anyone have any tips for making these types of arguments less likely.

It's part of the game, they need to learn to deal with it. Let them hash it out. Don't let them waste too much game time on it, though, they should have an agreement about how to divide loot in-place from the beginning, next time.

[Slipperychicken]

It's part of the game, they need to learn to deal with it. Let them hash it out. Don't let them waste too much game time on it, though, they should have an agreement about how to divide loot in-place from the beginning, next time.

Historical agreements about loot distribution could be of interest here. Some general principles I would take from those to apply:

• Have multiple (3 or more) independent merchants appraise the plunder's value. It could also help to have someone to cast Detect Magic and/or Identify on the loot, so the wizard doesn't screw people over. You could also metagame it, but that's boring.
• Divide the sell value of the plunder into a number of equal "shares". Normally, each party member gets one share. Helping NPCs and cohorts may have or demand shares too. If you need to distribute the value more finely, increase the number of shares.
• One share may be dedicated for expenses such as food, room, board, travel (i.e. horses, wagons, feed, bribes, spell components), taxes, honoring the gods, paying the merchants who appraised the loot, etc.
• Anyone caught stealing or withholding an item or items of value exceeding 100gp is to be whipped and/or shot. Similar offenses (such as mind-controlling the merchants or arranging the death of party members) may result in being denied a share and/or terminated from the party.

Other ideas could be:

• When a party member desires a specific item from the loot, such as a jewel or a +1 sword, that item counts its sell value (that is, the value which the independent merchants arrive at) toward the party member's share. If this would bring his share over the value of his comrades, he must forgo enough treasure to balance it out.
• Use random number generation (i.e. dice, online RNG) or bidding to resolve disputes when multiple party members want the same item.
• When a desired item is disputed (suppose two party members really want that +1 sword), party members may bid for the item by choosing to forgo treasure or even add their own money and valuables to the total plunder (before it is distributed to the party). The one who bids highest contributes that sum to the plunder and is entitled to the item. The minimum bid is equal to the sell price of the item.

[prufock]

I normally do some tailored loot. I have NPCs drop their basic gear and maybe a few gold pieces and stuff too, but generally toss them stuff that I know they'd need or like, even going so far as to ask for a wish list and pick something from there. In the current game I'm also giving them each some items that progress as they do, similar to items of legacy but without jumping hoops. In addition I grant them the odd boon like a wish as a prize for a quest or giving their faithful steed a template.

Random loot is fine, but I'd rather run games that are about the story, and shopping just seems to be a distraction.

[PrincessCupcake]

Last night I gave out treasure to my adventurers and they split it up eight different ways, divided it six times argued to the point of murder and complained for at least an hour (probably more like thirty minutes) before they all went with the original split and some of the characters bought back their magic items from the gold pool at half price. (everyone still got an equal share of the treasure. The arguing got everyone in a sour mood and the warlock who sold the main ticket item started complaining that he should have just kept it and sold it later for his own use. (Even though he first made a point to explain to everyone that he was going to sell it and didn't want to have much more gold than everyone.)
I was thinking about only giving gold value and not items, but, then the characters would know when they got story based items.

Do you guys deal with this kind of lunacy when handling treasure? And does anyone have any tips for making these types of arguments less likely.

I have only ever had party members fight over stuff twice. Both times were utterly ridiculous. (seriously, bottles of wine started an all-out brawl between two pcs, and a wolpertinger pup started a big argument between two players. Not the artifact weapon, not the wondrous items, not the literal piles of gold and gems. Two bottles of wine and a wolpertinger pup.) Those were exceptions to the rule. To a point, players should hash out their own treasure dispersal.

If they are getting that heated about some imaginary stuff, there may be deeper problems going on. Talk to your players individually. Make sure there is no inter-party conflict going on beneath the surface. (On the other hand, if players are simply hot-headed you'll need to ask everyone to keep it civil.)

[Magesmiley]

Do you guys deal with this kind of lunacy when handling treasure? And does anyone have any tips for making these types of arguments less likely.

I make a point of letting the players handle it. It has often gotten ugly, but it usually ends up working out.

What seems to be the system lately is:

1. Any items that the party wants saved out as belonging to the group get set aside.
2. They total up the value of everything (counting items as their sale price to NPCs initially) and figure out what an even split would be.
3. Anyone who wants an item has it count against his/her share. If multiple players want an item, high bidder gets it (with the corresponding increase in the total value and each share getting applied). Any items not wanted get sold to NPCs.

[Knaight]

I can't say I've ever seen this be much of an issue. Granted, I tend to play games that are way, way less treasure focused than D&D*, and there's often very little in them that would even qualify as treasure - cash is easily distributed, documents are generally more applicable as party treasure, most battlefield loot is obviously more suited for one person than another, etc.

*Which is just about every other RPG. D&D put quite a lot into its items and treasure and such, and it tends to make the players care more.

[Sartharina]

I have only ever had party members fight over stuff twice. Both times were utterly ridiculous. (seriously, bottles of wine started an all-out brawl between two pcs, and a wolpertinger pup started a big argument between two players. Not the artifact weapon, not the wondrous items, not the literal piles of gold and gems. Two bottles of wine and a wolpertinger pup.) Those were exceptions to the rule. To a point, players should hash out their own treasure dispersal.

If they are getting that heated about some imaginary stuff, there may be deeper problems going on. Talk to your players individually. Make sure there is no inter-party conflict going on beneath the surface. (On the other hand, if players are simply hot-headed you'll need to ask everyone to keep it civil.)

Do not underestimate the universal appeal of Booze and Cute!

[The Oni]

I would kill the hell out of some d00ds for a wolpertinger

[arclance]

I love giving out loot, more importantly, I always, ALWAYS give out random loot, for a couple reasons. First, because I like the idea of complete randomness, it's a treat as much for me as it is for my party to find out what they are going to get. secondly, it widens the variety of items they get, because something they might never buy personally could come in handy at a really climactic moment. And third, it adds a bit of diversity, instead of using the same greatsword all game, if the fighter finds a +1 colliding greatclub, he's probably going to switch to that over his +1 greatsword.

Sometimes I have multiple types of characters in the party, so as a group we've decided to use the system of "Whoever needs the item the most gets it, if two people need it, they bid on it.) thatt way, if the fighter and the paladin both want the great club, they could pay into the pot, and whoever gives the most gets it, and no one can complain it was unfair.

Random Loot is okay as long as you keep two things in mind.

1.) Sometimes the random loot table will give you something bad so you need to know when it would be better to reroll the loot.
For example, if you are having player conflict due to one player stealing from others you should reroll when you get a Ring of Greater Invisibility as random loot or live with the inevitable PvP.
Also don't be afraid to reroll if you generate level inapropriate properties on a item, a Silent Moves Shadow Fullplate as Lv.1 Loot might be a bit much (though hilarious).
Just say no to the +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Icy Burst Halberd at Lv.6...

2.) If the random loot is not giving items that are useable by a PCs build or class...
a). don't too heavily restrict what they can purchase with the gold they get from selling the random items that are useless to them.
This probably hurts Unarmed Strike/Natural Weapon builds the most since there is such a small number of items specifically for them (and almost none of them are on random loot tables unless you use a custom table) and weapons and possibly armor are not very useful to them.
Most other items they would want to use will be useful to other party members (anyone (not undead) could use a +6 CON item) as well so they are even less likely to get to keep something they could use.
Whatever you do don't bring in random inventory availability (Do they have X in stock?, High or Low, *Rolls D100*) along with completely random loot, that could loose you players.

b.) consider picking an item type (i.e. appropriate weapon or armor) and rolling random properties for that so the unlucky build gets something useable ocassionally.
For example, If you keep rolling Rapiers you might want to throw the Barbarian a Greataxe eventually.

All of these examples are from personal experience.
The Ring almost caused 4 people to quit that game.

@LimSindull
None of your PCs killed each other, don't feel so bad.
Not all of my examples ended so well, one Chaotic Stupid pickpocket got beheaded.

[Averis Vol]

Random Loot is okay as long as you keep two things in mind.

1.) Sometimes the random loot table will give you something bad so you need to know when it would be better to reroll the loot.
For example, if you are having player conflict due to one player stealing from others you should reroll when you get a Ring of Greater Invisibility as random loot or live with the inevitable PvP.
Also don't be afraid to reroll if you generate level inapropriate properties on a item, a Silent Moves Shadow Fullplate as Lv.1 Loot might be a bit much (though hilarious).
Just say no to the +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Icy Burst Halberd at Lv.6...

2.) If the random loot is not giving items that are useable by a PCs build or class...
a). don't too heavily restrict what they can purchase with the gold they get from selling the random items that are useless to them.
This probably hurts Unarmed Strike/Natural Weapon builds the most since there is such a small number of items specifically for them (and almost none of them are on random loot tables unless you use a custom table) and weapons and possibly armor are not very useful to them.
Most other items they would want to use will be useful to other party members (anyone (not undead) could use a +6 CON item) as well so they are even less likely to get to keep something they could use.
Whatever you do don't bring in random inventory availability (Do they have X in stock?, High or Low, *Rolls D100*) along with completely random loot, that could loose you players.

b.) consider picking an item type (i.e. appropriate weapon or armor) and rolling random properties for that so the unlucky build gets something useable ocassionally.
For example, If you keep rolling Rapiers you might want to throw the Barbarian a Greataxe eventually.

All of these examples are from personal experience.
The Ring almost caused 4 people to quit that game.

I'm glad that I play with a group of close friends, so the ring aspect hasn't really come up. But I disagree on both the armor and sword. I think those are cool things to introduce to the game that either makes the melee guy feel friggen awesoooooome, or gives them a good wealth of money to play with (Which I'm totally cool with.)

At point 2, well, thats why I let insane pieces of loot go through. I like my player to have their toys, and equally, I put enemies with sunder, I put in quick sand which forces them to ditch heavier things, and everything in between. I feel like it really adds to the experience of the game to have both great triumph AND tragedy.

[arclance]

You sound like you don't screw them over when they go shopping with the money from their random loot so that would be fine with me.
Not all DMs are so nice.
The DM most of my examples came from had given us a very large amount of money (2000+ lbs. of refined (ready to craft with) adamantine (we broke up some constructs he used against us)) but several people could not spend it because shops never had what they wanted or something close to it "in stock".

[Slipperychicken]

The DM most of my examples came from had given us a very large amount of money (2000+ lbs. of refined (ready to craft with) adamantine (we broke up some constructs he used against us)) but several people could not spend it because shops never had what they wanted or something close to it "in stock".

I don't think he "gave" that to you. He made a monster out of extremely valuable materials without realizing his mistake until you guys already looted it.


If I was in that position, I'd probably handwave something about how the adamantium had undergone alchemical treatment to be suitable for golem-animation which costs a bunch of money to undo (in that form, it sells for less than full value). Either that, or it only had adamantium external plating, while its core is mostly iron.

[arclance]

We had a track record of breaking apart things made of valuable materials at that point.
We had a broken piece of some enemies adamantine armor that we had been using to disable traps before we found the golems.
His random loot was also close to that wealth bracket, there just was not much of it and it was not useful to all party members.
The gold conversion for that amount of adamantine was not very much (1 or two levels) above WBL when split between the party members anyway.

I think he was more worried about us making improvised mining tools and poking holes in the dungeon walls than how valuable it was.

[Thrawn4]

How old are your players? Considering the complexity of the rules, they should be past primary school...

[Jay R]

This will happen with a new group, but pretty soon they will each realize that optimizing the party serves then better than optimizing themselves at the expense of the party. I like to give the big stuff to others with the statement that this carries the responsibility to take on greater risks.

"This is clearly better armor than anybody else in the party will have, Whoever gets it will be the meat shield, and always jump out in front. Who wants it on that basis?"

Or "Who wants the Ring of Invisibility so you can do all the scouting in the enemy stronghold?"

[Averis Vol]

You sound like you don't screw them over when they go shopping with the money from their random loot so that would be fine with me.
Not all DMs are so nice.

I try to be fair. It's no fun if you're always scrimping by, sometimes you just want to roll in the gold, so to speak. What I do do though, is abide by the wealth by civilisation side rules, so if they aren't in a capital city, they have to decide what is best for the group as a whole. So the fighter could get new armor, or they could stock up on healing aids because no one ever wants to play a class with enough spells at the end of the day to cover healing on their own, because the village doesn't have enough gold for both. I think things like that make it very give and take, they can't always get what they want, but it's generally a short trip to a place where they can, but they might lose some ground on a foe they're chasing, or an event might happen that they were trying to stop...... It's really a game of cost and consequences whether they want to finish their quest or get their gear instead of waiting. Sometimes it's warranted (Rust monster ate the fighters sword) sometimes.....not so much (I need a +4 item of dex instead of +2)

The DM most of my examples came from had given us a very large amount of money (2000+ lbs. of refined (ready to craft with) adamantine (we broke up some constructs he used against us)) but several people could not spend it because shops never had what they wanted or something close to it "in stock".

See, that's poor planning and just a little petty. If you're at the point where you can down something with that much usable adamantine, it should be trivial for your dm to be throwing around sunders, disjunctions, Feral paragon creature of legend rust monsters...... >.> <.<

Yea, poor play on his part, sorry mate.

[Lord Torath]

Direct your players here: Dividing Treasure - Old and New Methods. Pay particular attention (and point out to your players) the last section, "When the DM Should Step In"

[A_Man]

Ugh, loot problems have been a bane of my group for ages. What we generally settled on is a "Loot based on who needs what" but when that doesn't apply, it's a base where the person who didn't get magic items last time gets it.

I hate the OOC arguments. They last for hours.

[Doug Lampert]

Ugh, loot problems have been a bane of my group for ages. What we generally settled on is a "Loot based on who needs what" but when that doesn't apply, it's a base where the person who didn't get magic items last time gets it.

I hate the OOC arguments. They last for hours.

But it's not an out of character argument. Loot division is something that happens in character and that the characters should care about far more than the players do.

[Aedilred]

Our GM once gave us a Cube of Force. At Level 5. That is, more than the WBL guideline for the entire party, in a single item. This was entirely deliberate on his part, because I think he wanted to make life difficult for us in terms of "ok, who gets this ridiculously powerful item?" and the ensuing squabbling, and also to see what we did with it. (He liked doing that sort of thing with items, handing out specific items we wouldn't have picked for ourselves rather than generic items or large amounts of cash; the Cube was just the most egregious example).

I think he was at once both disappointed and impressed with how we dealt with it. Our initial plan was to sell it and divide up the money; until we got back to a town to "cash it in", I carried it, and had cause to use it once or twice. This pretty quickly caused us to reconsider, do some maths on how much money we would get each, decide it wasn't worth selling it, and then start discussing who should get it. The general consensus was that I should have it, being both the squishiest member of the party (wizard) and also the one who could accomplish most with it (wizard again). Over the course of the ensuing adventure the Cube and I indeed prevented a TPK twice and also accomplished various other important objectives that would otherwise have been impossible. The Cube was just essentially regarded as common property and I happened to be the one carrying it for expediency. In fact, everyone was sufficiently appreciative of the potential for the Cube in my hands and the benefit to the party as a whole that I still got an equal share of the loot from that point onwards.

All in all, a great success.

[A_Man]

But it's not an out of character argument. Loot division is something that happens in character and that the characters should care about far more than the players do.

If it's in the OOC thread (pbp), it's OOC. Mind you, I wish they did it via roleplaying, but basically the players are more cuthroat then the PCs are, so bargaining and threatening goes inside the OOC thread. XD

[LibraryOgre]

We've had party contracts drawn up in many cases that specify the distribution of loot. In several cases, it was "Cash is divided equally, with an extra share going to the party to defray living and traveling expenses. Magic items and acquired spell books are owned by the party and assigned to who can use them best. If you leave the party, you will have the option to buy any magic items you like at a price deemed fair by the party leader."

Loot is serious business. We've had actual PC murders over loot. I would sit everyone down and say "Guys, what happened during treasure distribution last time was painful to watch. Y'all need to come to some agreement on how that works, or it's going to drag down the game to the point where I don't want to give you any treasure."

[VoxRationis]

"We figgerd it eight diff'rent ways, and each way, someone don't like the way we figgerd it. So now there's only one way to figger it... and that is each man—including the old bag—for himself!"
Bury all future treasure on large, letter-shaped landmarks.

[LibraryOgre]

"We figgerd it eight diff'rent ways, and each way, someone don't like the way we figgerd it. So now there's only one way to figger it... and that is each man—including the old bag—for himself!"
Bury all future treasure on large, letter-shaped landmarks.

That's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad way of doing it.

So, my friend Matt tells a story of an Evil Game. His character was based on Skeletor, and was a high-level spellcaster. He had a cohort, however, based on Evil-Lyn.

Now, there was someone going around stealing artifacts from the various churches. Artifacts that could be used to destroy the world. And while they chased them around for a while, eventually, Matt figured out the pattern and decided "Nope, we're going to set up an ambush at THIS site," which happened to be the artifact of the god who was sponsoring him.

There was a massive fight. Multiple epic or near-epic characters involved, and they finally won, almost completely exhausted. And Skeletor stepped forward and said "Now, you're all going to give me everything, or I'm going to kill you." And the party protested! "No way! You've got to be exhausted! You've been busy this entire time, too!" And he pointed out "Nope, I've got all my spells and most of my HP. It was Evil-Lyn who was casting all this time."

And he won D&D.

[DigoDragon]

Loot is serious business.

Totally is. I've seen fights break out and yeah, two incidents of attempted PC murder (one of them over a known cursed magic item)! When I DM I try to tailor the loot a bit so that everyone gets something out of it. When I'm a PC, I keep the 'Minutes' of who got what during a loot distribution. Then, on the next adventure where loot is involved, I note who got the least last time and vote to give them first dibs on the new loot. Sort of works like NFL draft picks. With stuff.