The Sacred Fist: Where does it shine?

[ArqArturo]

There are loads of bad PrCs, some good PrCs, and a few that are in the middle. I consider the Sacred Fist to be one of them.

The prerequisites are rather simple: Knowledge (Religion), two monk feats, and Combat Casting. Sure, CC is not the best feat out there, but the bonus is not half bad, considering that it is also the prerequisite for other feats/PrCs.

The bad thing of the Sacred Fist is that it does not advance Turn Undead, so it leaves that feature semi-useless, it also states that you cannot use weapons. It does, however, advance unarmed strike damage (but not flurry of blows, another bad point), and it advances spellcasting... Mostly. It also gives you blindsense, and some minor buffs in damage and armor

So, we have a Prc that advances spellcasting to the most part, as well as unarmed trike and some unarmored AC bonus, small buffs to damage and armor, does not let you use weapons, but does not increase Turn Undead.

I think this class could very well be a good candidate for Vow of Poverty characters, since it gives them quite a lot of things to benefit from. Another thing is that Monk/Shugenjas might work, methinks, since they get spells that clerics can't access. Proflem with them, however, is that they use Charisma, thus they get MAD.

Any thought on the Sacred Fist: Is it a 'meh', prc, does it have some potential, or is it just a big waste of time?.

[Talya]

There are loads of bad PrCs, some good PrCs, and a few that are in the middle. I consider the Sacred Fist to be one of them.

That's a little bit vague, don't you think?

The bad thing of the Sacred Fist is that it does not advance Turn Undead, so it leaves that feature semi-useless,

Turn Undead is not all that useful to start with, when used for its original purpose. Undead are rarely the major threat, and at best, if an undead creature IS a threat to you, Turn Undead only delays dealing with them, as opposed to handling it for you.

Turn Undead's major purpose is powering things like Divine Might, or Divine Shield. As the Sacred Fist is guaranteed to be melee-oriented, this is a great boon. Also: Divine Metamagic and Persist shenanigans are awesome here. Note also ,that the number of uses you get out of Turn Undead have nothing to do with your level. Getting Turn Undead for a single level, never advanced, works as well for Divine feats as getting it advanced all the way to 20.

It does, however, advance unarmed strike damage (but not flurry of blows, another bad point)

The flurry of blows does cost you that one extra attack at higher levels, but the main thing flurry advancement does is get rid of the attack penalty. Sacred Fist more than makes up for that by being full BAB.

and it advances spellcasting... Mostly.

No, it advances spellcasting FULLY. Text trumps tables.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he possessed before he added the prestige class.

No mention is made of the lack of spellcasting progression at levels 4 and 8 that you'd assume if looking at the table, but when table and text conflict, text is always taken as correct.

Is it as good as pure cleric? No, but there are no melee classes that are. A monk 2, cleric 8/sacred fist 10 is a heavy hitting melee bruiser that is clearly Tier 1. It certainly does what it's intended to do.

[Forrestfire]

If you want to play an unarmed fighty-type, Cleric x/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 10 is probably one of the better choices to use. Not advancing turning doesn't matter much if you plan on burning all your uses on persisted spells, and you still get 9ths overall. It's a hit in power compared to cleric 20, but is still excessively strong. Even losing 3 1 caster levels over the course of your career, it's still a Clericzilla, after all.

[Talya]

If you want to play an unarmed fighty-type, Cleric x/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 10 is probably one of the better choices to use. Not advancing turning doesn't matter much if you plan on burning all your uses on persisted spells, and you still get 9ths overall. It's a hit in power compared to cleric 20, but is still excessively strong. Even losing 3 caster levels over the course of your career, it's still a Clericzilla, after all.

Monk 1/Cleric 9/Sacred Fist 10 only loses 1 caster level.

[gorfnab]

Two Sacred Fist builds

Sacrilegious Fist
Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3

Salad Bar Monk
Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10

[Forrestfire]

Monk 1/Cleric 9/Sacred Fist 10 only loses 1 caster level.

Yeah, I realized that as I read your post after posting. It's actually pretty awesome, then. Why can't the arcane casters have a 10-level full BAB/full casting class? That'd be cool.

[Sartharina]

Monk 1/Cleric 9/Sacred Fist 10 only loses 1 caster level.

Only if you follow "Text Trumps Table Always", which isn't necessarily true, and breaks a lot of things (Such as Rainbow Servants). I'd trust "Specific Beats General" more - the text gives the general rule, but has minimal effort put into it. The table, while allegedly the 'inferior' source, has more effort put into it in outlining the class's features.

[Cruiser1]

No, it advances spellcasting FULLY. Text trumps tables. No mention is made of the lack of spellcasting progression at levels 4 and 8 that you'd assume if looking at the table, but when table and text conflict, text is always taken as correct.

Sacred Fist is a lot like Rainbow Servant. Both PrC's have their text say full casting progression, and both have their table only show partial casting progression. Interestingly, both PrC's are from Complete Divine and are just a few pages apart from each other, so whoever edited/proofread that section of the book could have done better.

[Talya]

Only if you follow "Text Trumps Table Always", which isn't necessarily true, and breaks a lot of things (Such as Rainbow Servants). I'd trust "Specific Beats General" more - the text gives the general rule, but has minimal effort put into it. The table, while allegedly the 'inferior' source, has more effort put into it in outlining the class's features.

If that were common for classes with partial spellcasting advancement, I'd agree with you.

Precedent, however, is not on your side, and CDiv's errata did not correct the discrepancy.

For example:

Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

Spells per Day: A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd-numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

Spellcasting: When a new prestige bard level is gained (except at 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 13th level), the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

This isn't a case of specific vs. General. The text is always specific when it comes to spellcasting advancement, and in the case of Sacred Fist, the text is clear: When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he possessed before he added the prestige class. Rainbow Servant is consequently also a full casting progression PrC.

[Psyren]

With the full casting it's okay. Without, it's pretty meh. Okay, it does get Wis to damage with Sacred Flames which is nice, but you can only use it for one fight (2 at SF8.)

The class features are pretty blah. The fast movement is enhancement (won't stack with Haste), the AC bonus is helpful but barely brings you on par with armor, and the Inner Armor is powerful but only usable 1/day as well. About the only truly useful ability is the blindsense, which protects them from unseen melee attackers but is very limited in range.

[ArqArturo]

Sacred Fist is a lot like Rainbow Servant. Both PrC's have their text say full casting progression, and both have their table only show partial casting progression. Interestingly, both PrC's are from Complete Divine and are just a few pages apart from each other, so whoever edited/proofread that section of the book could have done better.

Could be worse, could have been written by Matt Ward .

[Psyren]

IIRC, Seeker of the Misty Isle has the same text vs. table issue and is also in Complete Divine.

[dextercorvia]

IIRC, Seeker of the Misty Isle has the same text vs. table issue and is also in Complete Divine.

Huh, that's neat. I had never noticed. I had a build that I wanted to take Seeker to the Magic Domain, but I couldn't stand dropping the CL. Ended up using Contemplative instead.

To the OP: Sacred Fist is decent for making a playable monk style character, especially if you persist a few good buffs.

[deuxhero]

While not RAW by any means, worth noting that Sacred Fist appears in Neverwinter Nights 2 and uses the table's casting progression.

[Psyren]

Indeed, it's much more likely that the text is the error and someone at WotC got lazy with copy-pasting. But it's just one more wreath to lay on 3.5's unerrata'ed grave.

[Flickerdart]

Salad Bar Monk
Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10

Why Landforged Walker? Its benefits don't seem worth the lost CL. I mean, Plant Shape is okay, but once Shapechange hits, it's kind of pointless.

[Psyren]

Why Landforged Walker? Its benefits don't seem worth the lost CL. I mean, Plant Shape is okay, but once Shapechange hits, it's kind of pointless.

I wouldn't say it's pointless. After all, shapechange is a spell (and therefore dispellable/disjoinable) while Wild Shape is Su.

[ddude987]

Only if you follow "Text Trumps Table Always", which isn't necessarily true, and breaks a lot of things (Such as Rainbow Servants). I'd trust "Specific Beats General" more - the text gives the general rule, but has minimal effort put into it. The table, while allegedly the 'inferior' source, has more effort put into it in outlining the class's features.

If you don't follow "text trumps table" all you do is gimp things that are otherwise interesting but not precisely optimal. Take the bolded example, emphasis mine, the rainbowarsnake build is by no means broken or "breaks" the game any more than a standard wizard. At the level that it actually does anything more than be tier 4, maybe 3, the game is so far progressed it is hardly relevant. Even with early entry tricks, rainbowarsnakes don't do broken things for most of the early and mid levels. Saying the table trumps text only makes otherwise balanced builds unplayable.

[Bakkan]

I'm afraid I must disagree on a minor point, ddude 987. Without truly extreme amounts of cheese, the wizard is not going to be casting from the entire Wizard list spontaneously at any point in his career. A rainbowarsnake can be casting from the entire Cleric list spontaneously at level 11 with a moderate amount of early-entry trickery, level 13 with only basic early-entry tricks, and level 15 with no tricks at all. The rainbowarsnake is more broken than a standard wizard.

[ddude987]

with no early entry shenanigans the trick goes off at level 15. That is pretty late enough that the powerlevel of casting the entire cleric list spontaneously versus being a regular tier 1 caster is extremely minimal.

[Psyren]

with no early entry shenanigans the trick goes off at level 15. That is pretty late enough that the powerlevel of casting the entire cleric list spontaneously versus being a regular tier 1 caster is extremely minimal.

At high-op the difference is indeed minimal. At low-op it's as simple as take this base class + this PrC (which has trivial requirements aside from the fluff one) and bam, T0. Every situational or tradeoff cleric spell would be at that player's fingertips without even needing a night's rest to prepare - status removal, ability restoration, plot-solving divinations, "silver-bullet" attacks and defenses etc. It's true that a T1 with sufficient op could duplicate this level of spontaneity, but 10/10 RS does this with surpassing ease.

This is not to say that there are no campaigns where this can be challenged, but it's easy to envision that the designer intended there to be a harsher drawback than currently exists.

[Vortenger]

Only if you follow "Text Trumps Table Always", which isn't necessarily true, and breaks a lot of things (Such as Rainbow Servants). I'd trust "Specific Beats General" more - the text gives the general rule, but has minimal effort put into it. The table, while allegedly the 'inferior' source, has more effort put into it in outlining the class's features.

How is Rainbow Servant broken? If you are referring to Rainbow Warsnakes, that really isn't broken. Powerful, but not broken.

[Talya]

How is Rainbow Servant broken? If you are referring to Rainbow Warsnakes, that really isn't broken. Powerful, but not broken.

It's a bit "broken" at maximum level, if mixed with a tier 3 or 4 fixed-list spellcaster. It gains the entire Cleric spell list, so a Warmage or Beguiler that takes it up to maximum level can cast spontaneously off the entire cleric list.

Note, though, that it's only broken in that it moves a tier 3/4 fixed list spellcaster to tier 1. It's still less powerful than a single-classed wizard or druid (or even cleric,if you were making strong use of your domains/turn undead abilities).

[Divayth Fyr]

At high-op the difference is indeed minimal. At low-op it's as simple as take this base class + this PrC (which has trivial requirements aside from the fluff one) and bam, T0. (...)

This is not to say that there are no campaigns where this can be challenged, but it's easy to envision that the designer intended there to be a harsher drawback than currently exists.

Which classes that work that way existed at the time of Complete Divine's printing? Warmages, Dread Necros and Beguiler's came later, so the interaction wasn't really something that would come to mind when making the prc. And without it the class isn't really that powerful.

[dextercorvia]

Which classes that work that way existed at the time of Complete Divine's printing? Warmages, Dread Necros and Beguiler's came later, so the interaction wasn't really something that would come to mind when making the prc. And without it the class isn't really that powerful.

Warmages were in Miniatures Handbook, which I believe predates Complete Divine.

Edit: But Clerics can spontaneously cast from their entire list for the cost of a single feat with no prereqs they don't naturally meet.

[Divayth Fyr]

Warmages were in Miniatures Handbook, which I believe predates Complete Divine.

Woops - I tend to remember Complete Arcane as the "Warmage book".

Still, this isn't really a prc with a power level worth being 6/10 casting.

[Cruiser1]

Clerics can spontaneously cast from their entire list for the cost of a single feat with no prereqs they don't naturally meet.

What feat gives Clerics this ability?

[dextercorvia]

What feat gives Clerics this ability?

Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) -- they qualify for it by virtue of their spontaneous cures (or domain if you go with the ACF). They know every spell on their list by default.

[ArqArturo]

The problem with the warmage/rainbow servant, and I think it's the most critical if you ask me, it's rule 0. Other than that, if I am DM and this situation presents itself, I'd let it happen, it makes the class much more versatile, and you also have stylish wings.

Back to the Sacred Fist, though :p...

Turn Undead is not all that useful to start with, when used for its original purpose. Undead are rarely the major threat, and at best, if an undead creature IS a threat to you, Turn Undead only delays dealing with them, as opposed to handling it for you.

Turn Undead's major purpose is powering things like Divine Might, or Divine Shield. As the Sacred Fist is guaranteed to be melee-oriented, this is a great boon. Also: Divine Metamagic and Persist shenanigans are awesome here. Note also ,that the number of uses you get out of Turn Undead have nothing to do with your level. Getting Turn Undead for a single level, never advanced, works as well for Divine feats as getting it advanced all the way to 20.

Yup, I sort of had that in mind with the SF, but I forgot that it was a full BAB PrC, so it does make it great for a Divine Might/Metamagic shenanigans, much more if the character is an illumian (saves a feat, for a while at least).

On the case of 'table vs. text', I usually go for table, because it makes for simpler work. However, I guess I'll have to take a closer look at the texts next time, it's not the fist time I get confused on text vs. table.