Goblins: Is it just me, or…

[Neoriceisgood]

I'll only add that it's much easier to communicate with Thunt in person than online, but of course that doesn't help much people. I had trouble a few times online with him, when I hurt/offended him or something (less so the other way around) but in person that has never been an issue, and instead of jokes falling flat we had a great time hanging out. That has been my experience every time I've met him.

I think we all know it's easier to have misunderstandings online than in person, but sometimes it doesn't make such a huge difference, and I felt it did with Thunt. As a result, I think people who know him personally have a much easier time understanding things he intended vs things he didn't mean that way.

In person? Like in real life or on his livestreams?

[Lissou]

In person? Like in real life or on his livestreams?

I meant in real life, although interacting with him in the livestreams is nice too. But that involves more listening to him, and hope every so often he notices something you said in the chat among what everyone else is saying. It's a bit one-way.

[Neoriceisgood]

I meant in real life, although interacting with him in the livestreams is nice too. But that involves more listening to him, and hope every so often he notices something you said in the chat among what everyone else is saying. It's a bit one-way.

where'd ya meet him, like a convention?

[Tengu_temp]

I stopped reading Goblins some time before the alternative versions of Minmax and company showed up. I just couldn't stand the glacial pacing and the ridiculous, melodramatic writing. I liked the comic much more early on, when it was more humorous - Cerebus Syndrome hit Goblins hard. Also, Thunt has trouble writing interesting and likable characters, and they often come off as annoying instead. Bonus points when he tries too hard to make us like them; remember the blind "hello for hi" ogre? I hated that ogre. He was a transparent attempt at getting cheap feels from the readers.

Also, I have general issues with the message of the comic. It's supposed to subvert the usual notion of "killing goblins and other monster races is always okay, they are always evil", but it comes off as "it's always okay when goblins kill humans". The way this matter is treated is heavy-handed at best and hypocritical at worst.

wow, i am sorry but that thing is just worong on so many levels. "may include rampint displays of racism, homophobia, sexism, and/or other forms of bigotry and duchebaggery" yeah i'm sorry, but that does not belong there, there is absolutely zero ways on hell and earth that that has ever been true

Reading comprehension failure. What you're quoting is a generic warning the Bad Webcomics Wiki gives to webcomics whose authors are known douchebags. In Thunt's case, it's the gigantic amounts of passive-aggressiveness in his behaviour, as well as other things you'd know about if you read the article linked. Do note that they're not just throwing accusations blindly; they link sources.

[Quild]

Also, I have general issues with the message of the comic. It's supposed to subvert the usual notion of "killing goblins and other monster races is always okay, they are always evil", but it comes off as "it's always okay when goblins kill humans".

I've already argued on this the previous page, but I think this is misreading the comic.

Goblins also fight other goblins and monsters (well, plants and Mr Fingers). They fight the 3 drow players. Dies flees in front of their rerolls.

It is wrong when Fumbles attacks elves by mistake.
It would have been wrong to attack citizens of Brassmoon. Even the standard guard is not evil if I do remember, only the elite (you can suppose that any non-elite person wouldn't have stand the tortures and would have leave).
It would not be okay to kill MM.

[Tengu_temp]

How is "it's okay to kill all those elite guards because they have an evil alignment" different from "it's okay to kill all those orcs because they have an evil alignment"? It's just a reverse of the usual murderhobo approach.

Also, I'd like to point out that the very first thing we see in the comic is a group of goblins ambushing and killing a paladin. And Kore is explicitly an exception from the "paladins are always LG" rule, which means that guy was almost definitely lawful good.

The only non-monster adventurers in the whole comic who are not cartoonishly evil are Minmax and his dwarf friend. And they started as bad guys. And the other humans we've seen are shown to be prejudiced too, just out of ignorance, not malice.

[Morty]

That's the idea, yes. But what it comes off as in practice is... that the goblins tear through the elite guards in the same manner heroes usually tear through whichever shape of conveniently evil humanoids they're fighting. The message is lost.

[tensai_oni]

Come on, nobody posted that 4chan comic yet? Here's a SFW version.

Spoiler

Show

[Tengu_temp]

Reversing the murderhobo idea by making monster races the good guys and humans the disposable mooks and cartoonishly evil villains is not clever and does not give a good message. The anvilicious delivery doesn't help.

You know what would help? If there was at least one human/elf/dwarf/etc character (character, not random extra) who was open-minded towards monster races without having to learn his lesson first like Minmax and Korgath did (and the lesson was learned in an extremely Very Special Episode way, too). And if there was at least one big-name monster race villain who wasn't driven to villainy by those evil humans.

That would help with the ongoing message of the comic. It wouldn't help with the writing, or the fact that the characters are not allowed to be happy, ever, but it'd be a start.

Come on, nobody posted that 4chan comic yet? Here's a SFW version.

Spoiler

Show

Sometimes I get the feeling the third panel is just Thunt speaking.

(Also, come on GitP, why is "whore" an acceptable word that doesn't have to be censored but "****" isn't?)

[Reverent-One]

How is "it's okay to kill all those elite guards because they have an evil alignment" different from "it's okay to kill all those orcs because they have an evil alignment"?

Because they're not arbitrarily evil because of their race, but because of their willing compliancy in the Goblin-slayer's plans. It's not the murderhobo approach of saying something is evil because they're born evil (without bothering to check or consider that might not be the case), but the typical action hero one of saying something is evil because they are choosing to do evil things/serving evil people (like Stormtroopers, Hyrda goons, ect and so on).

[Tengu_temp]

Do all of them know how horrible Goblinslayer is, with all the torture and rape he does, and are okay with this regardless?

An answer of "no" means that Goblins think it's okay to kill someone just because they serve an evil master. An answer of "yes" means it's cheap, convenient writing that lets the protagonists massacre them all with a clean conscience. Massacre them in an excrutiatingly slow, infamous and pointless fight scene, I should add.

In a story with simplistic morality, it can work. But one of the purpose of Goblins is to avoid simplistic morality, show that things are more complex than "us = good, them = evil". And it does a really bad job at showing that.

[Reverent-One]

Do all of them know how horrible Goblinslayer is, with all the torture and rape he does, and are okay with this regardless?

An answer of "no" means that Goblins think it's okay to kill someone just because they serve an evil master. An answer of "yes" means it's cheap, convenient writing that lets the protagonists massacre them all with a clean conscience. Massacre them in an excrutiatingly slow, infamous and pointless fight scene, I should add.

In a story with simplistic morality, it can work. But one of the purpose of Goblins is to avoid simplistic morality, show that things are more complex than "us = good, them = evil". And it does a really bad job at showing that.

It's general hero logic. The heroes are attempting to stop the bad guy and/or rescue a good guy, but doing so brings them into conflict with the bad guy's minions. They don't have the luxury of asking each and every minion if the minion fully agrees with everything their leadership does because said minions are trying to kill them. This does not make them murderhobos. If they went out of their way to kill as many of them as possible, even when they can achieve their goals without violence, that would be another matter, but that's not what happens.

In this specific case, most/all of the elite guard seem to be aware of the sorts of things the goblinslayer does (you can't guard all those creatures without realizing what's going on) and either approve or are cowed into submission. This doesn't make it cheap writing, that aspect of the elite guard is required for them to do what the goblinslayer wants to do. It also isn't simplistic morality, as the "them" in Goblins is humanity. Part of the "them" being evil isn't simplistic, but realistic. If every single guard in the city were evil jerks, then I agree it would both be cheap and morally simplistic, but the elite guard are a specific subgroup as opposed to the whole.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

My strong dislike of Tarol is how he takes money from his fans, and then never goes through with his financial obligations to them. If you promise to public comics if you take in a certain amount of money, then you need to do it. At the very least, if you fail to meet your obligation, you need a good explination as to why. I don't think he ever stuck to his schedule for Tempts Fate despite repeatedly getting the money for it. He never finished the last one.

[Draconi Redfir]

It's general hero logic. The heroes are attempting to stop the bad guy and/or rescue a good guy, but doing so brings them into conflict with the bad guy's minions. They don't have the luxury of asking each and every minion if the minion fully agrees with everything their leadership does because said minions are trying to kill them. This does not make them murderhobos. If they went out of their way to kill as many of them as possible, even when they can achieve their goals without violence, that would be another matter, but that's not what happens.

In this specific case, most/all of the elite guard seem to be aware of the sorts of things the goblinslayer does (you can't guard all those creatures without realizing what's going on) and either approve or are cowed into submission. This doesn't make it cheap writing, that aspect of the elite guard is required for them to do what the goblinslayer wants to do. It also isn't simplistic morality, as the "them" in Goblins is humanity. Part of the "them" being evil isn't simplistic, but realistic. If every single guard in the city were evil jerks, then I agree it would both be cheap and morally simplistic, but the elite guard are a specific subgroup as opposed to the whole.

and to be fair, they never WANTED to fight those elite guards, they were trying to avoid the fight entirely so they could find and save Fumbles and get the heck out of the city as quickly as possible. they only wound up needing to fight the lot of them because Cheifs' backpack got caught on a splinter of wood and he fell down off the rafters because of it.

[Murk]

I think what's very interesting about this, and the other threads on GiantITP, is that most of the people who dislike (parts of) the comic have read most of it. Same goes for me: I agree with almost all the criticism here, but still I read it all.
So then I'm wondering, fellow dislikers, what is it that kept us drawn to this comic even though we disliked the characters, the message, the artwork and the feels?
I actually have reread the whole thing twice, and I felt a bit at a loss when I was done, because there was no more. How can that be??

[Ravenlord]

It's human psychology: sunk costs and the desire to witness something odd.

Goblins has been running for a while and wasn't always this kind of melodrama. So quite a few dislikers have been reading it for a while; to stop would mean throwing away a (perceived) significant investment of time. People will often read despite disliking to at least know the ending to story threads. (That's also why I keep reading Bleach and, increasingly, Naruto as well. Meh.)

The other is the same like watching an aeroplane go down or a train derail. Everyone knows it's something terrible, but most can't help but watch it anyway. It doesn't happen all the time, so it's fascinating. And let's admit: you don't often see a webcomic with such premise go down like this one!

Well, that is my take on the issue anyway.

[Azurefenrir]

I think what's very interesting about this, and the other threads on GiantITP, is that most of the people who dislike (parts of) the comic have read most of it. Same goes for me: I agree with almost all the criticism here, but still I read it all.
So then I'm wondering, fellow dislikers, what is it that kept us drawn to this comic even though we disliked the characters, the message, the artwork and the feels?
I actually have reread the whole thing twice, and I felt a bit at a loss when I was done, because there was no more. How can that be??

For me, personally, I read (most of) Goblins because I used to like it. Psymax was what pushed me over the edge.

Also, people are more than willing to continue to read something even if they don't think it's really emotional anymore. For me, I treat Goblins the same way that I might treat, say, Shokugeki no Soma now - if I read it, it's for a short term entertainment. I don't think that it's sad or epic writing like I used to, but just as a bit of crazy fun with some attempted SAD that I can ignore. It can still be an enjoyable read if you don't think too much into it, and checking a few pages takes maybe 5 minutes or so, so it's not that big of a deal.

If I ever get to the point where I hate the webcomic, I will probably stop reading it. Having parts that I dislike and finding a comic to be generally flawed isn't the same thing, though, and even if it's not perfect and I can't really find the emotional parts touching anymore, the comic can still be enjoyable as a light reading.

[Math_Mage]

I binged it, so I didn't really care about the whole '2 years' thing. I didn't know or care who the author was, so Thunt shenanigans weren't in my scope. I bought that it was a crapsack world from the start, so all the complaints about goblin hypocrisy or whatever bounced right off. My only complaint was the maudlin thing.

[Quild]

The fact that Goblins fail to be sad may be part of why I read it. I wouldn't read if it managed to make me sad and stuff.
I can see however, how the fact that Goblins tries to make you sad can be a problem.

But I like the story, the characters, the items, the dungeons, etc...
I like how MM went through his speciesm with Kin and how Kin managed to trust an human and I want to know how this story ends.
I dislike Kore, and I want to know how he still is a paladin (I expect a losy loophole though). But I'm glad he's there, it's cool to dislike someone.
Goblinslayer was an ass, but I don't think he was really far-fetched.
etc...

[Flickerdart]

I read the comic until about the point where Minmax gets that weird sword. It was the unpleasant fanbase as much as anything that made me want to stop reading, but the comic itself had really grown boring by that point. There wasn't really a story happening. I think we were supposed to empathize with the characters (so it's less about *thing happens* and more about *guy reacts to thing happening*) but it's not like the characters are especially engaging.

When you paint with black paint on a black canvas, it doesn't actually make a mark.

I find the comparison with Game of Thrones interesting. For me, the appeal of Game of Thrones is an expertly crafted world set to a consistent mood and paced well enough that the mood doesn't get too grimdark to be taken seriously. The world of Goblins is just generic fantasy mixed with a tired reversal, and then everything is sad with attempts at humour sprinkled randomly in between.

And then Thunt thinks he understands how D&D works and it's depressing how wrong he is.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

And then Thunt thinks he understands how D&D works and it's depressing how wrong he is.

Like his save-or-die "Mr. Fingers" monster?

[Bird]

Like his save-or-die "Mr. Fingers" monster?

Mr. Fingers would be a poor fit for many D&D campaigns--especially those that try hard to avoid sudden unpredictable character death. There are many, many campaigns though, especially those that hew to 1st edition values, in which Mr. Fingers would be right at home. In other words, Mr. Fingers is representative of a kind of campaign which isn't universal, but which certainly exists, and which many people enjoy.

Unless by "Thunt doesn't understands how D&D works," we mean "he doesn't understand all of the 3E rules." In this case, IIRC, Mr. Fingers worked well enough in play according to the rules. The main issue was that Thunt ignored the monster creation guidelines, which I think was a case of "didn't care," not "didn't understand."

[Murk]

Concerning Mr. Fingers: it wasn't just a "save or die" monster. He was trapped behind glass, which you didn't have to break - he was unnecessary to kill (to advance in the dungeon you could just run away) - he was pretty slow and easily avoidable.
I see Mr. Fingers more as a trap: if you fail to get past the glass and the door without releasing him, and fail to run away (or desperately want treasure) yeah, there's a save-or-die, but it's in no way a strong monster you have to fight.

Which I think is good. "Run into room, kill all monsters, exit room" is less fun than "choose how to handle rooms, which monsters to fight and which to avoid."

[Radar]

Concerning Mr. Fingers: it wasn't just a "save or die" monster. He was trapped behind glass, which you didn't have to break - he was unnecessary to kill (to advance in the dungeon you could just run away) - he was pretty slow and easily avoidable.
I see Mr. Fingers more as a trap: if you fail to get past the glass and the door without releasing him, and fail to run away (or desperately want treasure) yeah, there's a save-or-die, but it's in no way a strong monster you have to fight.

Which I think is good. "Run into room, kill all monsters, exit room" is less fun than "choose how to handle rooms, which monsters to fight and which to avoid."

Which brings us to one of the high points of Thunt as a writer: he creates so very, very beautiful dungeons that threaten the characters in unusual and unforgiving ways. I wish I could ever play in a classic dungeon crawl like that. The traps are mean and deadly, but first and foremost they require something more then a skill check to bypass.

[Quild]

Which brings us to one of the high points of Thunt as a writer: he creates so very, very beautiful dungeons that threaten the characters in unusual and unforgiving ways. I wish I could ever play in a classic dungeon crawl like that. The traps are mean and deadly, but first and foremost they require something more then a skill check to bypass.

Yup, I actually like the dungeons in Goblins.
Don't forget that in the same way than oots, Goblins is not a game of D&D. Obviously, a monster like Mr. Fingers may make players mad at the DM.

But face it. If while grabing an idol you activate an immense boulder that rolls toward you, you're not going to... well... face it actually. Right?

In this case, it's a monster, so it's different. An unknown monster, even. But it has some similarities.

[Studoku]

My strong dislike of Tarol is how he takes money from his fans, and then never goes through with his financial obligations to them. If you promise to public comics if you take in a certain amount of money, then you need to do it. At the very least, if you fail to meet your obligation, you need a good explination as to why. I don't think he ever stuck to his schedule for Tempts Fate despite repeatedly getting the money for it. He never finished the last one.

He never did a big announcement about it but he will refund the money you contributed to the latest TF if you contact him.

[Neoriceisgood]

Which brings us to one of the high points of Thunt as a writer: he creates so very, very beautiful dungeons that threaten the characters in unusual and unforgiving ways. I wish I could ever play in a classic dungeon crawl like that. The traps are mean and deadly, but first and foremost they require something more then a skill check to bypass.

I enjoyed the low-skill check puzzles, doors & obstacles actually. I've never enjoyed the part of D&D where you essentially just have to roll
high enough to surpass tons of challenges or obstacles. Personally I found the inventive dungeon crawls easily the most enjoyable part of the
comic.

[DomaDoma]

I have to say, you nattering nabobs you, that I love the characterization and interplay. Big Ears, especially, is the best paladin I've ever seen in a webcomic (okay, no, you can't beat O-Chul, but Big Ears is up there.) And the interactions among Minmax's crowd have been a highlight from volume one on. For all the justifiable talk of how it's just a species-flip alignment-wise, every character with a part beyond "guy who gets killed in random battle scene" has a lot more to them than just being pro- or anti-monster.

[Kislath]

I love everything about Goblins, and only stopped reading it because he stopped writing it.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Guys! Guys!!!

https://twitter.com/Thunt_Goblins/st...81095161139201