Results 121 to 150 of 418
-
2014-07-20, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
The terms are defined. In the dictionary. Such is the nature of my point. The list of conditions is utterly meaningless, as it's not even implicitly a complete list. This isn't the rules not saying I can't. It's the rules saying I can, and you failing to point out the place where that argument is contradicted. You could probably reasonably argue that this isn't definitionally a condition, or something like that, but man, there's a reason I just wrote semantics instead of actually providing a solid semantic argument. It doesn't help that the theoretical flaw in the forcecage argument is in the affecting the character prong, rather than in the spell/effect/condition prong.
-
2014-07-20, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Iron Heart Surge gives me some ideas for a Jack Rakan build. Actually, Iron Heart Surge really explains a lot about him and the rediculous feats he's pulled.
I am a Curio Munchkin. No ordinary Chargebarians or Dragonwrought Kobolds for me. It's gotta be a specially bred Thri-kreen supersoldier that escaped the torturous experiments with nothing but luck and two awesome templates!
Homebrew Projects
SpoilerCurrent Projects:
Finished Projects:
Why GiantIP is not babyproof
-
2014-07-20, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Where does it say you default to English when there's no official definition for a word in the game?
-
2014-07-20, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
It's just how the game works. You don't need a rule for it. Otherwise, every time you see the word "And", you'd have to say, "What does this word mean? What the hell does this word mean? Oh god, it's not in the glossary. We're all doomed." You see the issue. Similarly, if we're not using the English definition of condition, what the hell other definition are we using? Are we to just assume that it's an undefined nonsense word? Words mean what words mean. The game sometimes defines words in a particular way, as is its right, but in the absence of such a definition, we must default to English, lest the game fall to anarchy.
-
2014-07-21, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Oh, so you don't actually have rules quotes supporting your argument. Okay.
-
2014-07-21, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Location
- most dangerous place ever
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
the game also doesnt define what a day is (as far as i'm aware), so how do you work out what it means when ever it says the word "day"
it gets even worse than that if you actually start looking, i dont think it ever explicitly mentions how long a minute/hour it is. we assume a minute is ten rounds, since a round is 6 seconds, but i don't believe the game ever explicitly tells you that there are 60 seconds in a minutes, so for all we know one minute could be a thousand rounds. unless we refer to the english language for a definition for "minute"
tl:dr if we didnt default to english definitions when we found a word the book never defines, then it would be literally unreadableLast edited by Somensjev; 2014-07-21 at 09:03 AM.
-
2014-07-21, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
- Location
- Curse word for the galaxy
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
It's worse than that, see The Insanity is asking for a rules that say we default to english, but the thing is, such a rule cannot be construed in intelligible manner using only the term in the glossary. So to understand such a rule you'd have to default to english.
So you'd end up defaulting to english because a rule you read by defaulting to english tell you to default to english.
Circular logic being a fallacy you can't do that.
Therefore the book would always be unreadable. Even with a rule.
-
2014-07-21, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Location
- most dangerous place ever
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
-
2014-07-21, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
- Location
- Curse word for the galaxy
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
-
2014-07-21, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Supporting which argument? That we're supposed to read stuff in English in English? No, I don't have a rules citation for that, and I don't need one. This is just how the game works, on a fundamental level. Seriously, the game only defines so many words. If we're just assuming that the words aren't defined by the dictionary English definitions, then how are they being defined?
-
2014-07-21, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
On the other hand, what it comes down to in game is the DM's say so, which is dependent on his idea of "are you breaking stuff here?" If the answer to that question is yes, he looks to the next question on his flow chart, which is "do I want my game broken?" The usual answer to that is "no". And, like I said, there's not much that the Fighter can do to kill the Wizard that the Wizard cannot do back to the fighter.
-
2014-07-21, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
-
2014-07-21, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
- Location
- St. Louis, MO
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
The rules state IHS can't do that.
The rules are affecting my character so now I can IHS the rules.
I know someone's had to of said this before. I just wanted to this time
-
2014-07-21, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- GMT -5
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
-
2014-07-21, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
The definition is on page 175 of the PHB according to the index. Funny things indices, they often tell you where to find information about games. The Glossary has other useful information.
Conditions are listed on pages 300-301 of the DMG.
Spells are listed in various books.
Ok great so now we have a two prong test:
Is it one of those 3 defined things affecting the character?
Yes/No?
Does it have a duration listed in rounds of 1+?
Yes/No?
You know what doesn't satisfy one or more of those things? The sun, game rules, doors, objects in general, ideas, and characters.
-
2014-07-21, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
That's not a definition of the general term. It's merely a definition of the effect line of spells. It's completely irrelevant for this purpose.
Conditions are listed on pages 300-301 of the DMG.
You know what doesn't satisfy one or more of those things? The sun, game rules, doors, objects in general, ideas, and characters.
-
2014-07-21, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
I IHS Vogonjeltz.
-
2014-07-21, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
You're running on absence of evidence, and he's saying it has to have a set duration. I think that part is ambiguous, but if you were to make Punnett squares of the arguments, the absurdist ruling "this does everything! I IHS the condition of not being level 20!" isn't the genetically viable one.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2014-07-21, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
-
2014-07-21, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Except, in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is because, as I've noted, absence of evidence means that we must default to English, and I suspect that I can win on that front. I mean, I suppose there could theoretically be some definition out there, but we're working off of a limited pool of information, so I'm honestly pretty doubtful.
Edit: Incidentally, the test would likely be better off with three prongs, splitting the first off into
1. Condition, effect, or spell
and
2. Affecting the character.
Those are really the two prongs that are actually argued about, and a thing can generally be one and not the other.Last edited by eggynack; 2014-07-21 at 07:49 PM.
-
2014-07-21, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Which is incorrect.
Here are 3 questions with arguments that could be considered equally valid.
The example problem: "The sun is hurting my eyes." An orc gets dazzled in the sunlight, and he wishes to correct that. Will it blot out the sun?
1) Is this a condition?
In this case, the answer is yes. The game says it is. Sometimes the game doesn't say it counts.
2) Does it need to be measured it rounds?
The English is ambiguous here. If the answer is yes, then you can't. If it is no, then you can stop this condition.
EDIT: I actuallt reread the ability. It's not an Oxford comma or anything. It simply doesn't apply to anything without a measured duration. It could be read that anything instantaneous (Seething Eyebite) or otherwise without an in-game duration (living) isn't affected, Like how Touch isn't a fixed range.
3) What does it do to change the problem?
It puts out the sun, or it fixes your eyes. One is less ridiculous than the other. Never being the dazzled by the sun again is pretty nice, but that's different from potential ending life on Earth. In fact, the problem can be solved so many ways in game (sun is slightly less bright, player remembers that his character can't even make the spot check, character goes blind), that I should point out that the absurd option is only 1 out of hundreds. It's up to DM fiat to produce an effect outside of the rules, which is well outside the scope of a RAW discussion.
This is a whole other argument, too. Applying real-world logic to this gaming situation says something as tiny as an orc wouldn't have an effect on the sun. In the storytelling sense, something so easily done (5th level) would have been done in a destroy-the-world plot. In-universe, it would have happened already if it could happen.
All three of these have to be true for you to You have (AT BEST!) a 1/9 chance of remotely being correct. You can't prove one. This is insipid. Splitting it into prongs is wrong, because this is actually a system of poor reasoning and bad arguments.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-07-21 at 08:39 PM.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2014-07-21, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
I don't see how you arrived at any of this stuff. There is no probability in rules whatsoever, and the maneuver is, itself, fundamentally split into prongs. If a given thing fits all of the parameters that the maneuver states, then what is stopping you from ending it? I just don't see where you're arriving at any of the logic you're putting forth. There is no punnet square of logical conclusions here. There is only what happens, as determined by the rules.
-
2014-07-21, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Except:
1) Nothing you said is in the rules. Your predicate is not extant to the point that you're contradicting yourself.
2) 2 equally valid options have an equal change of happening. I've been up since 4, so I think I actually did my math wrong for that, though. For you to be right about this, the minimum would be winning those three arguments with your "The rules don't say that I can't, guys."Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-07-21 at 08:44 PM.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2014-07-21, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
What part of what I said isn't in the rules? IHS says that if there is a condition affecting you, lasting more than one round, you can end that effect. Condition isn't defined in the rules, so we default to standard English, and that definition effectively becomes a component of the rules. In a sense, you can theoretically append the definition into the rules, as a replacement for the word, for such is the nature of things. I'm not really sure what I'm talking about that isn't in the rules.
2) 2 equally valid options have an equal change of happening. I've been up since 4, so I think I actually did my math wrong for that, though.
-
2014-07-21, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
All of that. You're applying terms when they aren't necessarily correct. It's like call a laptop magic. Heck, it's like calling an alchemist flask a spell.
I looked into further, and it has to be an effect. Using English. That means it has to have happened to you. The sun burning isn't a change for you. Getting a sunburn is. I would say you cure your sunburn.
What we may glean is that conditions (the statuses described as such) are considered effects as well.
In the sun case? Maybe. This case isn't that case, though. Really, the prongs only determine if IHS can be used, and then you consider other things to determine outcome. However, the effect on things like a forcecage is pretty clear.
I think the best parallel in the rules is the Wish spell when making an unsafe wish. We know IHS definitely works on certain, non-instaneous spell effects and conditions. Doing anything else is an unsafe wish.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
-
2014-07-21, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
I can't see anywhere where I applied a term incorrectly. It's all pretty much just taken right from the maneuver. If we can't trust the maneuver to tell us what the maneuver does, then what can we trust?
I looked into further, and it has to be an effect. Using English. That means it has to have happened to you. The sun burning isn't a change for you. Getting a sunburn is. I would say you cure your sunburn.
What we may glean is that conditions (the statuses described as such) are considered effects as well.
Well, whether or not it will do anything is unfathomable for most cases outside of what is described in the game. Which is why the rules are written. We can say that the sun does something to you, but we sure as hell can't tell you what.
I think the best parallel in the rules is the Wish spell when making an unsafe wish. We know IHS definitely works on certain, non-instaneous spell effects and conditions. Doing anything else is an unsafe wish.
-
2014-07-21, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Tijuana, México.
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Maybe a bit late, but that build won't help you against an even-leveled straight wizard, straight cleric, straight druid, archivist, not even a sorcerer, favored soul, or else. Your immunities go on from 1d20+15, their caster level comes from 1d20+higher than 20. Your vision range could be a problem, in fact, it is.
I am not saying this is useless against a wiz, I mean it hits like hard against casting foes, but if they are far FAR away, flying and dispelling your abilities, you would be in trouble.
Gate a Rust Dragon, BSDragon, whichever kind of dragon, profit?
If not, simply flying far away from your range/vision range wins. Mage’s Disjunction is a thing tho. Wings of Cover are another thing tho. Planar Shepherd is a thing tho, Beholder Mage Ur Priest Theurge Elan is a thing tho, StPErudite is a thing tho, I could go on.Check out which is the Playground's favorite Dragon!
>> My Extended Signature <<
Hey guys, I'm a vestige! And a spell!
Awesome avatar by Cuthalion.
-
2014-07-21, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Not any mage. I'm playing an ultimate magus started out as a wizard evocer. That's right buddy she is wearing armor +1 twilight mithril chain shirt and carrying a mithril buckler. With flight of the dragon she has the mobility to stay out of our reach. She may not have a 9th level spell slot when she hits level 20 but she will still be able to cast off a scroll. Target you with Mordenkainens disjunction then when your cool stuff is gone cast somkey confinement on your character. No character is unbeatable. As for being immortal your DM should have never allowed that
Oh btw I love playing mages. Not everyone who plays a mage acts like they are the party. I did once upon a time get really peeved when the fighters would rush into the room before I could lob off any of my spells this meant I either had to handicap myself or risk hurting someone. I spent 10 whole levels avoiding area effects because of this while the DM constantly dropping hints every games session that I need to start picking up area effects spell. Thankfullly our party mix has changed and all the front liners have evasion. I admit I have probally stepped on the toes of my fellow players once or twice, but it sh ould not matter who come up with a solution as long as it works. There have been a few times I have had my character of take matters in her own hands because it was obvious if she didn't we would spend the rest game session listening to the ranger, the cleric summoner and the monk argue about which course of action to take.Last edited by Nessa Ellenesse; 2014-07-21 at 11:10 PM.
-
2014-07-21, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Tijuana, México.
- Gender
Re: So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???
Check out which is the Playground's favorite Dragon!
>> My Extended Signature <<
Hey guys, I'm a vestige! And a spell!
Awesome avatar by Cuthalion.
-
2014-07-22, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender