1st Level Wizard vs 1st Level Fighter (did we not do this already?)

[gorilla-turtle]

I was reminded today of something interesting brought up by a player in a play by post game that I had been meaning to ask. A while back, one conversation or another on the forum supposedly lead to an interesting conversation about the game. There is a rather large conception that at low levels, and especially at first level, that a Wizard is more helpless than any designated victim of the week, and that the Fighter and all other martial classes walk over it entirely. However, I was under the impression that a group on this forum actually ran a few experiments on this subject, and actually learned that the situation is more or less rocket tag, even without spell-casting, and that a Wizard could still survive fighting against a Fighter, simply because of how weak both are.

If anyone happens to know where that thread went to, I would appreciate the read.

[Eldan]

It is indeed rocket tag. I mean, look at saves.

A fighter with an unreasonably high, but possible will save, at level 1:
Wisdom 18 (+4), Iron Will (+2), total +6

A wizard with an average-ish DC:
Color Spray (Level 1, +1), Intelligence 16 (+3): DC 14

The fighter still needs to roll 8+ still, so he has a 35% chance of failing, at which point the wizard has 3d4 rounds to CdG him.

With a more reasonable and common will save of +1? 75% chance of failing.

And that's just one spell, fairly unoptimized. The wizard could have abrupt jaunt.

Or in melee? A prepared wizard has easily an AC of 20 (shield, mage armour, dex +2), probably higher than the fighter. The fighter can easily kill him in one hit (1d10+6 damage is not at all unrealistic, which is pretty much guaranteed against a wizard with, at best, 8 or 9 HP, if a dwarf). The wizard has maybe 1d8+1 damage (12 STR elf with longsword). If our fighter has 14 HP, that's three average hits, though it's doable with one high crit.

[eggynack]

It is a rocket tag, but likely favored towards the wizard. Whoever goes first has a pretty high chance of just winning, especially when you consider the fact that the wizard's abrupt jaunt will start triggering after he takes an action, and the wizard, with things like nerveskitter, high dexterity (with heavy armor, the fighter has lower incentives to boost it), and maybe a hummingbird familiar, is pretty highly likely to go first.

[Vogonjeltz]

I was reminded today of something interesting brought up by a player in a play by post game that I had been meaning to ask. A while back, one conversation or another on the forum supposedly lead to an interesting conversation about the game. There is a rather large conception that at low levels, and especially at first level, that a Wizard is more helpless than any designated victim of the week, and that the Fighter and all other martial classes walk over it entirely. However, I was under the impression that a group on this forum actually ran a few experiments on this subject, and actually learned that the situation is more or less rocket tag, even without spell-casting, and that a Wizard could still survive fighting against a Fighter, simply because of how weak both are.

If anyone happens to know where that thread went to, I would appreciate the read.

It's not rocket tag, if the wizard is the aggressor, they have a chance. If the fighter is, they don't.

Illustration: 1st level spell ranges are almost universally close range (25 ft).

All a fighter has to do is engage at 60' and the wizard can't even do anything until turn 2.

Since there are several varieties of wizard, did you want to specify what kind you're thinking of?

[eggynack]

It's not rocket tag, if the wizard is the aggressor, they have a chance. If the fighter is, they don't.

Illustration: 1st level spell ranges are almost universally close range (25 ft).

All a fighter has to do is engage at 60' and the wizard can't even do anything until turn 2.

Since there are several varieties of wizard, did you want to specify what kind you're thinking of?

That's only really true if the fighter is a ranged character, and I've found that they so rarely are until they're expected to go up against a caster.

[Eldan]

That's true. At long ranges, the wizard has to resort to mundane weapons. Crossbows or longbows, if an elf. At that, the fighter probably wins. (Probably about equal AC if buffed, much higher if unbuffed, wizard might have higher dexterity, but fighter has base attack, fighter has probably about double the HP).

[Vhaidara]

It's fighter vs druid, but I request that Vogonjeltz do the required reading of Pickford's legacy before the argument start again

[Eldan]

That's only really true if the fighter is a ranged character, and I've found that they so rarely are until they're expected to go up against a caster.

Well, let's run a few numbers.

Reasonable best case for the wizard:
Elf wizard, 20 dex, 12 con, 0 BAB, longbow. Buff spells active, no relevant feats.
AC: 22, Attack +5, damage 1d8, 5 HP.

Fighter:
Human fighter, +1 BAB, no relevant feats, Dex 12, Con 16, full plate and longbow.
AC: 19, Attack +2, damage 1d8, 13 HP.

Wizard probably wins initiative. Has a 70% chance to hit, needs three average hits.
Fighter hits only on a crit, 5% of the time, in which case he kills the wizard.

Unlikely, though.

More reasonable case:
Same fighter, with 14 dex and weapon focus longbow, so +4 to hit.
Wizard has 14 dex and a light crossbow and only one buff spell for AC, so 16 AC.

Fighter hits on a 12, 40%. Average damage kills in two turns, 1 if the wizard has no con bonus. 1 hit kill is still reasonable, though, up to 8 HP, which is quite high for a first level wizard.

Wizard hits on a 16, 20%, still needs three hits. Clearly loses.


Edit:
Do note, however, that in clear terrain, the fighter can also charge 60ft., which will likely kill the wizard too, unless he's an abrupt jaunter.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The challenge the OP is thinking of was a fairly optimized Barbarian and an optimized-for-first-level Wizard fighting an entire (unoptimized) party of higher level adventurers. The wizard owned things up with an animal companion, color spray, and enlarge person. The barbarian would have been barely victorious but for a slight build modification.

RE: Fighter with a bow.
You don't have to be a "ranged character" to carry a bow. A level 1 tripper who normally attacks at +5 for 1d10+6 in melee could happily switch to a shortbow at +3 for 1d6 if the mage can't respond in kind. That said we're talking about very particular encounter distances, and Sleep is medium range.

[Somensjev]

Well, let's run a few numbers.

Reasonable best case for the wizard:
Elf wizard, 20 dex, 12 con, 0 BAB, longbow. Buff spells active, no relevant feats.
AC: 22, Attack +5, damage 1d8, 5 HP.

Fighter:
Human fighter, +1 BAB, no relevant feats, Dex 12, Con 16, full plate and longbow.
AC: 19, Attack +2, damage 1d8, 13 HP.

Wizard probably wins initiative. Has a 70% chance to hit, needs three average hits.
Fighter hits only on a crit, 5% of the time, in which case he kills the wizard.

Unlikely, though.

More reasonable case:
Same fighter, with 14 dex and weapon focus longbow, so +4 to hit.
Wizard has 14 dex and a light crossbow and only one buff spell for AC, so 16 AC.

Fighter hits on a 12, 40%. Average damage kills in two turns, 1 if the wizard has no con bonus. 1 hit kill is still reasonable, though, up to 8 HP, which is quite high for a first level wizard.

Wizard hits on a 16, 20%, still needs three hits. Clearly loses.


Edit:
Do note, however, that in clear terrain, the fighter can also charge 60ft., which will likely kill the wizard too, unless he's an abrupt jaunter.

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

[Eldan]

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

Except the wizard still needs multiple hits on the fighter to kill him, unless he crits. And each true strike eats another round without shooting.

So, you know. First round: wizard hits. Deals 1d8 damage. Fighter shoots back, has a good chance to kill the wizard. Wizard casts true strike. Fighter hits again. Wizard shoots, deals 1d8 damage, maybe kills. Fighter shoots back for the third time.

[dextercorvia]

Class Power By Level

This thread led to LonelyTylelonal, Phaederkiel, and myself doing a same game test vs. a level 3 party (in a best 2 out of 3 contest). LT used an OGL only barbarian, I used an OGL only Wizard, and Phaed used a Splat Barbarian (all level 1). The name of the game thread where we played out the challenge was called The Power Challenge, but has been lost unless someone can find it on the wayback machine.

The result was LT made a bad choice and won 1/lost 2 of his battles. If he had picked Boar Totem instead of Bear, then statistically he should have won the other two. I forget how Phaed did, but I think he won 2/3 of his. My wizard won his first two without any opponent making an offensive action, so I never played the third.

Edit:Ninja'd by GoodbyeSoberDay, but I can provide you the sheet for the Wizard I used -- Spells McOgl

[Somensjev]

Except the wizard still needs multiple hits on the fighter to kill him, unless he crits. And each true strike eats another round without shooting.

So, you know. First round: wizard hits. Deals 1d8 damage. Fighter shoots back, has a good chance to kill the wizard. Wizard casts true strike. Fighter hits again. Wizard shoots, deals 1d8 damage, maybe kills. Fighter shoots back for the third time.

that's true, so true strike wouldn't be worth it, but without it you've got a much lower chance of hitting

actually, it was brought up that sleep is medium range, and i see that often being referenced as one of the better 1st level spells

can a fighter deal with a prepared list of shield+mage armor+however many sleep's, assuming that the wizard wins initiative

[Eldan]

Sleep is probably the decisive factor here.

I mean, absolute best case. Crappy wizard with 14 int (can happen if going by the DMG recommended point buys of 25 or 28 points or bad rolling), DC 13 spell. Highly optimized will fighter, 18 wis, iron will, +5 save. Still fails... 40% of the time. 36% chance to save twice in a row against sleep and the fighter needs two rounds to cross a first level sleep spell's reach.

More likely is a will save of +1 or +2 and a DC of around 14 or 15. Best case I can see right now is grey elf wizard with spell focus enchantment and 20 int, DC 18. Unlikely, though.

So, +2 vs. 15: 35% chance to make the first, 12.25% to make two.
+2 vs. 18: 20% to make the first, 4% to make two.

After which the wizard can go CdG with a dagger.

[Somensjev]

those percentages are really painful to look at. sometimes i wish this game was balanced, but that's less fun

[Eldan]

Though, sleep has a 1 round casting time. So the fighter might be able to do it with only one sleep aimed at him. But the wizard can also walk backwards 30 feet after each casting.

Actually, forget that. Let's instead assume bow fighter against sleep wizard. Since the fighter has to stay more than 110 ft. away, he probably takes a minus for range increments, so probably only has a +1 or +2 to hit against an AC of 18. He might still do that, if only because the wizard has probably only two or three sleeps before running out.

[Shinken]

If the fighter is a dwarf, the spells are 10% less likely to work.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A first level elven generalist domain wizard with 20 INT (reasonable best case) will have 5 first level spells prepared. Is he really burning two of those on AC pre-buffs? Also how is he pre-buffing? Really, whoever gets the jump seems to have a huge advantage here.

Which reminds me: Beguilers are great at level 1. Take a Whisper Gnome with +4 dex +4 size +4 ranks +4 racial +4 competence* = +20 Hide (+16 move silently). A fighter or wizard with 14 WIS and cross class ranks in spot (generous) will have a +4, minus distance penalties and perhaps distraction penalties. And the beguiler has almost all of the great 1st level wizard spells; it's later levels where his list becomes constraining.

*Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, though again this is optimized for first level.

[Eldariel]

At that range terrain also plays a huge factor. Open plains is one thing but e.g. in a forest, a Wizard doesn't care about concealment or cover (it's just an AOE aimed at ground). Dungeon plain just doesn't have those ranges available.

[DeAnno]

Class Power By Level

This thread led to LonelyTylelonal, Phaederkiel, and myself doing a same game test vs. a level 3 party (in a best 2 out of 3 contest). LT used an OGL only barbarian, I used an OGL only Wizard, and Phaed used a Splat Barbarian (all level 1). The name of the game thread where we played out the challenge was called The Power Challenge, but has been lost unless someone can find it on the wayback machine.

The result was LT made a bad choice and won 1/lost 2 of his battles. If he had picked Boar Totem instead of Bear, then statistically he should have won the other two. I forget how Phaed did, but I think he won 2/3 of his. My wizard won his first two without any opponent making an offensive action, so I never played the third.

Edit:Ninja'd by GoodbyeSoberDay, but I can provide you the sheet for the Wizard I used -- Spells McOgl

Were these three encounters taken in a row or after a rest each time? I don't think its surprising that the Wizard does better when he has a 5 minute workday.

[Vogonjeltz]

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

How many spells are we assuming for the wizard?
Which spells?
What stats?

The answers to these questions are going to make a dramatic difference to the result.

Someone loaded up on true strikes is using 2 rounds for every 1 attack (and thus taking 2 attacks in return)

And if they have color spray in 1 slot and Mage armor in another that's 2 slots used. So at least one bonus spell

[draken50]

Do you allow the wizard to cast sleep from a prone position? If so, could be useful against a fighter. Is the fighter readying an action to shoot at the wizard when he is casting?

[Eldariel]

Do you allow the wizard to cast sleep from a prone position? If so, could be useful against a fighter. Is the fighter readying an action to shoot at the wizard when he is casting?

Of course a Wizard can cast from prone, the only limitations the status imposes on you is inability to use non-Crossbow ranged weapons and -4 on melee attacks, -4 AC vs. melee and no movement except for crawling (that's not explicitly spelled out but we can probably figure out that's why the Crawl action exists).

[Eldan]

If the wizard tries casting from prone, though, the fighter can just run away and stay out of range.

So, very alternate tactic: guerilla fighter. Halfling fighter with ranks in the stealth skills and a shortbow. Survival too, if he can manage it.

He hides, preferably about 200 feet away. Whenever the wizard tries to sleep, read his book or eat, he starts shooting. Every other case, he runs away and waits.

What does the wizard do?

[Vhaidara]

This argument has literally already been made, in the thread that I posted. It was Fighter vs Druid, but the principle still applies. The only situation where the fighter had a chance was in a contrived situation beginning at a specific range chosen by the fighter, and it only works in an environment where the fighter can see the wizard at that range (flat, featureless plain).

[SinsI]

Sleep is probably the decisive factor here.

I mean, absolute best case. Crappy wizard with 14 int (can happen if going by the DMG recommended point buys of 25 or 28 points or bad rolling), DC 13 spell. Highly optimized will fighter, 18 wis, iron will, +5 save. Still fails... 40% of the time. 36% chance to save twice in a row against sleep and the fighter needs two rounds to cross a first level sleep spell's reach.

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.

[Karnith]

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.

Or, to cover a wider spread, an evil Fighter who has pledged to serve an Elder Evil and has Willing Deformity as his first-level feat and Deformity (Madness) as his bonus Vile feat.

[Vogonjeltz]

This argument has literally already been made, in the thread that I posted. It was Fighter vs Druid, but the principle still applies. The only situation where the fighter had a chance was in a contrived situation beginning at a specific range chosen by the fighter, and it only works in an environment where the fighter can see the wizard at that range (flat, featureless plain).

How well another class might or might not do has no bearing on the question at hand.

Wizards have a d4, no armor, and very few spells that work at ranges beyond 25'.

Sleep works at up to 110', but it also takes 1 round to cast, inviting interruption or the enemy to just hide behind some cover, wasting the spell.

[Malroth]

Fell Drain + Sonic Snap + Metamagic reducer of choice + Humming bird familiar= Dead fighter no save

[dextercorvia]

Were these three encounters taken in a row or after a rest each time? I don't think its surprising that the Wizard does better when he has a 5 minute workday.

After a rest (on both sides). However, the Wizard had spells/scrolls left after each fight, and was at full HP. The Barbarians were usually alive only based on their Diehard feat (in the negatives). I don't believe the Wizard was ready to solo another EL 7 encounter, but he could easily have contributed (meaningfully) to 2-3 more level appropriate encounters.

Remember, Melee types require a 5 min workday at level 1, if they have no access to healing.