1st Level Wizard vs 1st Level Fighter (did we not do this already?)

[eggynack]

The starting gold is representative of the items each character has, it's not actually a big pile of cash with which they go shopping. If the starting skills are enough to craft their own weapons than that is fair play.

That's the point. It's an abstraction. That means that you can't get extra money. Just like you can't use the item given as gift method of starting gold use to pick up items for free, so too can you not use crafting to get half price stuff. You're not actually going out with a big pile of cash, but by the same token, it's completely irrelevant how you come by your items. They just have one static value, the one written in the book, no matter how you get them.

[Firechanter]

The starting gold is representative of the items each character has, it's not actually a big pile of cash with which they go shopping.

Exactly. That's the point.

If the starting skills are enough to craft their own weapons than that is fair play.

Do you even realize how you are contradicting yourself?

BTW: if you hire 300 Mercs for a day, then for a day you get them. Where do you want to use them? Against the city that hosts them? Against a town in the immediate area, which would be in the same domain and likewise result in them getting kicked out of that domain? Mercs are not like cabs, which start the meter when they arrive at your door. They need to be paid from the moment they leave their base of operations.

[Jormengand]

Could the wizard not use his fell drain sonic snap trick on one of the mercs and watch an army of 300 wights slowly assemble?

Or rather, run away from the suddenly apparent army of wights, because he can run faster than the mercs even if any do chase after him.

Then he can find out where the damn fighter is, and... honestly, just hit him with a morningstar until he goes away. He's completely unarmed and unarmoured, so...

Or, y'know, just turn him into a wight too. Might as well make it 301.

[Vogonjeltz]

Nothing mentioned thus far even remotely resembles play of 1st level characters that I've seen.

I haven't seen any real play of first level characters since it's more common to start at level 3. But Abrupt Jaunt, Sleep, and Color Spray are all common tactics used in real play.

Oh you did a statistical analysis with enough certainty to proclaim those methods as common? I look forward to reviewing your methodology. Where is it posted?

That's the point. It's an abstraction. That means that you can't get extra money. Just like you can't use the item given as gift method of starting gold use to pick up items for free, so too can you not use crafting to get half price stuff. You're not actually going out with a big pile of cash, but by the same token, it's completely irrelevant how you come by your items. They just have one static value, the one written in the book, no matter how you get them.

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.

Exactly. That's the point.

Do you even realize how you are contradicting yourself?

BTW: if you hire 300 Mercs for a day, then for a day you get them. Where do you want to use them? Against the city that hosts them? Against a town in the immediate area, which would be in the same domain and likewise result in them getting kicked out of that domain? Mercs are not like cabs, which start the meter when they arrive at your door. They need to be paid from the moment they leave their base of operations.

I didn't contradict myself.

And you're right, mercenaries aren't like cabs, you don't start paying them wherever they happen to be, you can hire them to be somewhere for a day, travel expenses are their problem.

Not that it matters, this was just a response to whoever said the wizard could hire 3 or 4 centaurs.

[Vhaidara]

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.

Except that it completely invalidates the starting gold. After all, the wizard, being smarter (you may be using a smart fighter, but I doubt he has an 18 Int) will simply us 1 gold to make 3 gold, and buy himself epic level gear at level 1.

[Vogonjeltz]

Except that it completely invalidates the starting gold. After all, the wizard, being smarter (you may be using a smart fighter, but I doubt he has an 18 Int) will simply us 1 gold to make 3 gold, and buy himself epic level gear at level 1.

How does that invalidate it? All classes get craft as a class skill. Nobody said they can sell the items they make for creation. (Although they could try once the game begins *, but of course it's way more efficient to just go adventuring.)

[Firechanter]

And you're right, mercenaries aren't like cabs, you don't start paying them wherever they happen to be, you can hire them to be somewhere for a day, travel expenses are their problem.

Maybe you don't know how cabs work. If you are at home and need to get somewhere, and call a cab, it will come to your driveway and pick you up. You pay from the moment that you enter the cab; you don't pay for the driver's expense to get to your door (because that's figured into the fare).

Mercenaries do NOT work that way. They have a base of operations somewhere. You can hire them, but you have to start paying them the day they set foot out of their base. If your intended target is two weeks away from their base, you can consider yourself very lucky if they charge you only 2 weeks (to get there) and not another 2 to get back home, _and_ not decide to help themselves to whatever spoils you might have gained by employing them.
Sure, you can try offering them to come to the place at their own expense, then get paid by you to fight for a day, then go home again. They will simply and flat-out refuse, or they will take everything you have gained. They are not in this business to run a loss.

BTW, historically, Mercs (in the renaissance and baroque eras) were not only hired and paid by the month, they had a clause in their contract that every engagement starts a new salary month. So having them march anywhere would require you to pay them at least for a month, then actually fighting would rack another full month on the bill.
Not saying that Mercs must be handled the historical way in D&D, just saying that the handling I first described (you pay from the point they leave their base to the point they return) is actually a good deal for the employer.

Not that it matters, this was just a response to whoever said the wizard could hire 3 or 4 centaurs.

I missed that, but of course the same implications would also apply if you tried to hire anything else from Centaurs to planewalking constructs (I forget their name).

[Vogonjeltz]

Maybe you don't know how cabs work. If you are at home and need to get somewhere, and call a cab, it will come to your driveway and pick you up. You pay from the moment that you enter the cab; you don't pay for the driver's expense to get to your door (because that's figured into the fare).

Mercenaries do NOT work that way. They have a base of operations somewhere. You can hire them, but you have to start paying them the day they set foot out of their base. If your intended target is two weeks away from their base, you can consider yourself very lucky if they charge you only 2 weeks (to get there) and not another 2 to get back home, _and_ not decide to help themselves to whatever spoils you might have gained by employing them.
Sure, you can try offering them to come to the place at their own expense, then get paid by you to fight for a day, then go home again. They will simply and flat-out refuse, or they will take everything you have gained. They are not in this business to run a loss.

BTW, historically, Mercs (in the renaissance and baroque eras) were not only hired and paid by the month, they had a clause in their contract that every engagement starts a new salary month. So having them march anywhere would require you to pay them at least for a month, then actually fighting would rack another full month on the bill.
Not saying that Mercs must be handled the historical way in D&D, just saying that the handling I first described (you pay from the point they leave their base to the point they return) is actually a good deal for the employer.



I missed that, but of course the same implications would also apply if you tried to hire anything else from Centaurs to planewalking constructs (I forget their name).

Do you have a basis in the books for the claim about merc pay schedules, or is it just your gut feeling?

From what I can see of the rules, there's nothing to say they can't just be hired on the basis of a day of work. Being there to do the work to get paid is their problem (similar to construction work).

*fair enough on the historical version/equal application to centaurs.

[Vaz]

I wouldn't call risking life and limb going adventuring as more efficient.

[Segev]

If the goal is to discuss "actual play," then the stereotype is not fighter vs wizard, but the effectiveness and durability of the two classes in a standard party. Under those conditions, it is assumed that there are other perty members, including the cleric.

The standard adventuring day is actually supposed to be 3-5 CR-appropriate encounters. The wizard will win 1-2 of these, assuming the save-or-lose spells one-shot whole encounters about 20% of the time. Given the number of things in his AOEs, and therefore the number of saves being made, that is actually slightly generous for entire encounters falling to them.

The wizard, too, must contend with his immediate fragility. He is in nigh-constant danger of one hit dropping him. The fighter can afford a hit or two. Yes, abrupt jaunt helps, but that is very build-specific and doesn't "win" if there is more than one attacker.

The fighter may be out after one encounter without healing, but the standard assumption is that there is healing (a cleric, usually). Because the fighter can last a fight without in-fight healing, usually, the cleric just patches him up between fights.

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

[Story]

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

That and the fact that they're assumed to have a Tier 1 class supporting them. Also, the stereotypes are based on low op play.

Oh you did a statistical analysis with enough certainty to proclaim those methods as common? I look forward to reviewing your methodology. Where is it posted?


Seeing as you were arguing from purely anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

[Firechanter]

Do you have a basis in the books for the claim about merc pay schedules, or is it just your gut feeling?

From what I can see of the rules, there's nothing to say they can't just be hired on the basis of a day of work. Being there to do the work to get paid is their problem (similar to construction work).

I call it plain logic. Nobody in their right might would accept to hike through the countryside for let's say two weeks for the chance to earn a single day's wages. Especially not when the pay you offer is so low that they'd need that income _daily_ to survive. At that point the mercs would be literally (!) 100 times better off if they just made weekly Craft:Basketweaving checks and call it a day, instead of risking life and limb for a stingy would-be employer.
If mercs' fees only applied during the actual operation, the daily cost would have to be _much_ higher, more like 5-10GP per day per Hit Die, to cover their overhead cost.
If you disagree with that, I got a job offer for you...

Arms&Equipment Guide gives some rules and guidelines for Mercenaries. One interesting point in that calculation is that either you have to outfit the Mercs out of your own pocket, or the mercs in question must be of sufficient level to afford their own gear by NPC WBL. Higher level hirelings have higher rates, of course.

[Vogonjeltz]

I wouldn't call risking life and limb going adventuring as more efficient.

That means danger, not efficiency.

[Vaz]

Maximum productivity with minimum waste effort.

If you die, you don't produce anything.

[AMFV]

Maximum productivity with minimum waste effort.

If you die, you don't produce anything.

High quality worn feed.

[Segev]

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

That and the fact that they're assumed to have a Tier 1 class supporting them.

Eh, this argument is less convincing than it sounds. You could have a healer (definitely NOT tier 1) backing them and it would achieve the same result. The point here is that the fighter, with the assumption that healing is available 2-3 times a day, is going to be the more durable class. The wizard, with the same available healing, is going to still be feeling like he's at risk every fight (unless he can successfully stay at range).

Also, the stereotypes are based on low op play.

Sure. But the level of optimization I outlined is actually pretty typical in most games I've seen. Anecdotal, sure, but I've rarely seen games reach even the mid-high optimization tiers. Mid-op is more usual, if only because of the array of players that tend to be involved.

And, even high-op, the level 1-2 party is going to have the wizard be vulnerable if more than one foe attacks him at a time. "But that's the fighter's job; to keep them off of him!" you might say. To which I answer, "Precisely."

It's only once out of low-levels that the wizard starts to be truly able to handle himself without some sort of meat shield, and brings enough firepower to handle the full assumed adventuring day without the consistency of the combat-types to back it up.

[Eldariel]

And, even high-op, the level 1-2 party is going to have the wizard be vulnerable if more than one foe attacks him at a time. "But that's the fighter's job; to keep them off of him!" you might say. To which I answer, "Precisely."

It's only once out of low-levels that the wizard starts to be truly able to handle himself without some sort of meat shield, and brings enough firepower to handle the full assumed adventuring day without the consistency of the combat-types to back it up.

Honestly, I wouldn't want neither my level 1 Fighter nor Wizard in melee. Much rather use hirelings, animal companions or whatever to tank for you but fighting the fight where 1 lucky crit can kill anyone feels awfully risky. Level 3-4 I'd let Fighters melee but level 1, much rather a Riding Dog or some such. Fighters can use bows and polearms to try to stay a bit safer.

[Story]

Sure. But the level of optimization I outlined is actually pretty typical in most games I've seen. Anecdotal, sure, but I've rarely seen games reach even the mid-high optimization tiers. Mid-op is more usual, if only because of the array of players that tend to be involved.

The games I've seen have all been higher OP. See the wonders of ancedotes?

Eh, this argument is less convincing than it sounds. You could have a healer (definitely NOT tier 1) backing them and it would achieve the same result.

But now you're using two characters to do the job of one druid's class feature. Wizard + Wizard > Fighter + Healer.

Anyway, you can build a Wizard to solo multiple encounters at level 1. You can build a Wizard that holds their own in melee if you want to. It's just that this is rarely done in practice because most people don't play a single character party at level 1.

[Segev]

most people don't play a single character party at level 1.

And you make my point for me.

[Anlashok]

And you make my point for me.

Er. No he didn't. He said that it's not a common mode of play, not that you're right and that the wizard needs to rely on his fighter buddy.

[Story]

Yeah, a Wizard can solo 4 level appropriate encounters a day at level 1, it's just that this isn't a situation that comes up in practice.

[Segev]

Er. No he didn't. He said that it's not a common mode of play, not that you're right and that the wizard needs to rely on his fighter buddy.

Seeing as my point was that, under the common mode of play, the fighter appears to be stronger than the wizard at 1st level because he can mix it up and be in less apparent danger while dishing out effective enemy-negation, yes, he made my point for me. My point centered around common mode(s) of play.

[eggynack]

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.

Except you're not allowed to use the funds more efficiently. It matters not one whit how you come by your bow. It counts against your starting gold by the same amount. That's just how starting gold works. It doesn't care whether you got your bow from a kindly old uncle, or if you found it in the woods, or if you bought it from some weird guy, or if you crafted it by your own hand. It counts as the same amount of money no matter what. Once you're actually in the game, money can start counting for more or less, so if you want to craft stuff, that's your time to do so, but you just don't have that luxury here.

[Segev]

Except you're not allowed to use the funds more efficiently. It matters not one whit how you come by your bow. It counts against your starting gold by the same amount. That's just how starting gold works. It doesn't care whether you got your bow from a kindly old uncle, or if you found it in the woods, or if you bought it from some weird guy, or if you crafted it by your own hand. It counts as the same amount of money no matter what. Once you're actually in the game, money can start counting for more or less, so if you want to craft stuff, that's your time to do so, but you just don't have that luxury here.

Eh, no. It's about how you choose to spend your entire character build suite of resources. If you invest in the Craft skill, you've spent skill points to spend fewer gp.

[eggynack]

Eh, no. It's about how you choose to spend your entire character build suite of resources. If you invest in the Craft skill, you've spent skill points to spend fewer gp.

It would work that way if it worked that way, and it'd make sense for it to work that way, but it just doesn't work that way. If you invest in the craft skill, then you've spent skill points to spend fewer GP after the game has already started. It doesn't let you bypass starting gold, because as I mentioned, starting gold doesn't care how you got the item. It just charges you.

[Synar]

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.

I'm pretty sure sleep still work against elfs (I think it is specified in the spell description).

EDIT:Well I can find it nowhere in the srd, but I'm sure it was written in my edition of the phb. I rember being frustrated by this fact. Or is it all a lie?

[Zombulian]

This has probably already been pointed out, but a Human Wizard with Easy Metamagic and Fell Drain on Sonic Snap will auto win if they win initiative.

[Karnith]

I'm pretty sure sleep still work against elfs (I think it is specified in the spell description).

Nope, and Elves are called out as being immune to magic sleep effects.

This has probably already been pointed out, but a Human Wizard with Easy Metamagic and Fell Drain on Sonic Snap will auto win if they win initiative.

It has. I believe that the counterpoint (in general, not to Fell Drain Sonic Snap specifically) was "how does the Wizard close in to a 25-ft. range against a ranged Fighter?"

[Story]

Seeing as my point was that, under the common mode of play, the fighter appears to be stronger than the wizard at 1st level because he can mix it up and be in less apparent danger while dishing out effective enemy-negation, yes, he made my point for me. My point centered around common mode(s) of play.

Except that you haven't proven your point at all. All you've done is argue anecdote vs anecdote. You criticized me for using the word common and then turned around and used it yourself. It's hard to even figure out what you're saying when you keep shifting the goalposts.

Anyway, if you ever want to put your money where your mouth is and so a same game test, I'd be willing to give it a try.

[Zombulian]

Nope, and Elves are called out as being immune to magic sleep effects.

It has. I believe that the counterpoint (in general, not to Fell Drain Sonic Snap specifically) was "how does the Wizard close in to a 25-ft. range against a ranged Fighter?"

Fair enough I suppose. Abrupt Jaunt + Moving 30ft should be okay for most situations I would think though, a Wizard shouldn't be fighting in an open field larger than that at level 1 anyway.