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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    I'm a new v3.5 player/DM and I've been unable to figure out how to calculate damage from compound shortbows and longbows.

    I understand that a compound bow has a strength rating between +0 and +4 and that if a characters strength modifier does not meet or beat the strength rating they receive a -2 on their ranged attack rolls.

    I know that a if a weapon is masterwork it can have a magical enhancement between +1 and +5.

    I know that weapons can have magical enchantments that add damage to rolls such as 1d6 of fire or ice damage.

    What I do not know if exactly how all of these fit together, but it seems like the max damage possible from a magical compound longbow is:

    1d8+9+1d6 = 23

    So, Is +4 the highest strength rating possible for compound bows?

    Does that strength bonus stack with +1 through +5 magical enhancements to compound bows?

    If there any good way to get more damage out of magical bows?

    Thank you in advance for your answer. :D

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    There are such thing as mighty composite bows which you can add more str accordingly. Also yes there are ways to get more damage from bows, and it is something many archers forget about or don't like investing in and it is done by enhancing ammunition. The +1-+5 damage does not stack or the to hit, but its with other things like explosion or what nots. Also do not forget firing more arrows, just ignoring DR, or getting sneak/sudden/skirmish dice to each shot that requires an attack roll is a nice way to get extra umph. There are also things like targeteer fighter where you can apply some of your dex mod to damage, dead eye which gets your dex mod bonus to damage, and other things to get any extra damage.

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    Averis Vol's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty88 View Post
    I'm a new v3.5 player/DM and I've been unable to figure out how to calculate damage from compound shortbows and longbows.

    I understand that a compound bow has a strength rating between +0 and +4 and that if a characters strength modifier does not meet or beat the strength rating they receive a -2 on their ranged attack rolls.

    I know that a if a weapon is masterwork it can have a magical enhancement between +1 and +5.

    I know that weapons can have magical enchantments that add damage to rolls such as 1d6 of fire or ice damage.

    What I do not know if exactly how all of these fit together, but it seems like the max damage possible from a magical compound longbow is:

    1d8+9+1d6 = 23

    So, Is +4 the highest strength rating possible for compound bows?

    Does that strength bonus stack with +1 through +5 magical enhancements to compound bows?

    If there any good way to get more damage out of magical bows?

    Thank you in advance for your answer. :D
    Your bow can be any strength modifier, but each + is an extra 100g. So if you have a 30 strength, you would need to pay 1000 gold to get full use of your +10 modifier. As for magical modifiers, there's a number of things that can increase your damage. For a basic bow that will do good enough damage for most games, a +1 Splitting/collision/Force/keen/seeking bow of your choice will do jsut fine. You are going to want to get your party caster to hit you with greater magic weapon in the morning, and that should deal with your base +5.

    If you give us your level and gold though, I can probably give something a bit more helpful as the above bow is kind of a lot to take in.
    Last edited by Averis Vol; 2014-07-19 at 12:29 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Flickerdart's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Composite bows are uncapped - as long as you can afford the 100GP per point of Strength bonus, you can keep jacking up the draw strength and damage.

    There are other enchantments (such as Collision), weapon crystals, or special materials (such as Deep Crystal) that increase damage of bows.

    You can also use other magic items to improve your bow's damage. Strongarm Bracers let you wield a bigger bow than normal, and Greater Bracers of Archery make the bow deal more damage. Feats (such as Holy Warrior or Weapon Specialization) also add to a bow's damage.

    Most commonly though, bow damage is improved by using class features, from simple Sneak Attack to more esoteric like the Power Shot of a Peerless Archer. Because bows get a lot of support for extra attacks, it is often effective to invest only a little bit in damage and make that up by shooting a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Again thank you for replying.

    As of right now I my group is ONLY playing with the DMG, PHB, and MMI. So with that source material in mind, what I'm hearing is that to get the most damage from a bow I an do any of the following

    • Be a rogue
    • Have a magically enhanced bow +1-+5
    • Have magical enchantments to give extra damage dice
    • Use the Many Shot feat to get more arrows into a target and thus more
      damage
    • Have a compound bow with a strength rating as high as your strength modifier


    Can another person confirm or deny that magical enhancements stack with strength rating on a compound bow?

    Also in general can a weapon have more than one enchantment on it. For example can a weapon have the fiery and shock enchantments for 2d6 of additional energy damage?

    Also the source material seems to say that the magical enchantments and enhancements to a bow and the enchantments and enhancements to magical ammo do not stack.
    Last edited by Minty88; 2014-07-19 at 12:58 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Flickerdart's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty88 View Post
    Again thank you for replying.

    As of right now I my group is ONLY playing with the DMG, PHB, and MMI. So with that source material in mind, what I'm hearing is that to get the most damage from a bow I an do any of the following

    • Be a rogue
    • Have a magically enhanced bow +1-+5
    • Have magical enchantments to give extra damage dice
    • Use the Many Shot feat to get more arrows into a target and thus more
      damage
    • Have a compound bow with a strength rating as high as your strength modifier
    I would recommend Rapid Shot over Manyshot. It's easier to qualify for and has fewer restrictions. The one benefit of Manyshot - that it's only a standard action - isn't all that useful to you.


    Can another person confirm or deny that magical enhancements stack with strength rating on a compound bow?
    They stack. Magic weapons provide an enhancement bonus, while the bonus added from composite bows is untyped.

    Also in general can a weapon have more than one enchantment on it. For example can a weapon have the fiery and shock enchantments for 2d6 of additional energy damage?
    Yes.

    Also the source material seems to say that the magical enchantments and enhancements to a bow and the enchantments and enhancements to magical ammo do not stack.
    Enchantments stack. Enhancement bonuses do not.

    To understand how this works, you need to understand stacking in D&D. There are a bunch of bonus types; enhancement is one of them. When you fire a +1 arrow out of a +1 bow, each item provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. However, you can only have one enhancement bonus to a roll at a time, so only one of those (the higher one, when the bonuses are different) applies.

    When you fire a +1 flaming arrow out of a +1 shocking bow, the +1 and +1 don't stack, but there's nothing stopping flaming and shocking from stacking. If you had two different effects that added fire damage, they would still stack, because "fire" is not a type of bonus (but rather, a type of damage).

    Oh, another thing - bonuses only don't stack when they apply directly to the same thing. So your +1 bow and +1 arrow don't stack, but if you have a magic belt that gives a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength (and thus +1 to damage) that damage would stack with the bow's, because it is modifying your Strength bonus instead of the damage directly.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2014-07-19 at 01:37 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    The same sources do not stack I remind you is what they are probably talking about. Like how a +1 Flaming Arrow won't add extra damage with a +1 Flaming Bow, or how a +1 arrow does not stack for damage or to hit with a +1 bow. Otherwise yes a +1 Flaming Shocking would give you a 1d6 of fire and 1d6 of electric damage because they are different sources. Just remember that a quick guide to knowing when things do not stack is for example sake we will go with dex. You can get one enhancement bonus, one inherent bonus, one competence bonus, one morale bonus, one luck bonus, one sacred bonus, one profane bonus, in some cases deflection bonus, and as many untyped bonuses for the sake of gaining dex or nearly anything else and should you have multiple only the highest is used. So with another example is say you have a +1 Flaming bow and use a +1 Shocking Arrow, said attack would only give you a +1 to hit and damage from the enhancement bonus but the actually enhancement of Flaming and Shocking would go off without a problem so you get 1d6 for each.

    For your other questions:
    Ranged rogue within 30ft can add damage die quite nicely if your SA can be applied.
    The weapon enhancement from the spell or being bought is also nice flat damage to add to up your average.
    Firing more arrows also help as it ups the average of hitting and damage in the round.
    And same with more str as it is more flat damage.

    The biggest problems with range is DR and SA immunities if you are a rogue. Usually you would have access to spells to ignore the immunties for SA, have an acf ready to penetrate through the immunity, able to up the amount of attacks you do, and be able to just outright ignore DR.

    However, range is a nice thing as you can be quite capable of sniping from long distances or getting many attacks off in a round should they have no DR. With just core the easiest way I can see you doing damage is one of two routes, the full attack or the standard attack, hide and move.

    Full attack route: ways to get more attacks is haste and rapid shot for two extra attacks which can be quite deadly if you are a rogue with the ability to apply SA.
    Standard action w/ sneaky: Manyshot is your friend here and even with core there are plenty of ways to get a high hide and move silently and hence forth be able to kite and slowly pelt down whatever is needed to be brought down.

    Sadly with just core alone it can be quite hard to build a decent damage archer, but hey this is just my opinion and you can ignore it for all you want.
    Here is a build I did that worked as long as there were no immune to SA creatures in the encounter:
    Rogue 11/ Assassin 9 Human for the extra feat
    This character used the TWF line, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Haste, and his hiding ability to apply as many SA as possible to one guy. He dual wielded hand crossbows and would get on average of 9 attacks off in a round with all that going on each applying his SA of 11d6. In order to hit he would hide and move silently to get his opponent flat footed. However when he encounters creatures who were immune to SA he would take to his second attack option of using UMD and wands in order to use spells and deal damage, mainly Scorching Ray and earlier on magic missles.

    I apologize though for the long post, and do note this is just merely my opinion.

    Edit: Swordsage'd .... I'm now a level 3 swordsage time to get my 2nd level manuevers.
    Last edited by Regissoma; 2014-07-19 at 01:30 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Thank you Flickerdart and Regissoma for your very detailed post. And thank you to others that contributed.

    I feels very good about my ability to get the most out of both my ranger PC and my ability to reward my ranged players in the game that I DM.

    Now I just have to figure out these damn animated knives, lol. Gotta have a dangerous kitchen for the governors mansion :D

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Flickerdart's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty88 View Post
    Now I just have to figure out these damn animated knives, lol. Gotta have a dangerous kitchen for the governors mansion :D
    You may consider a magic trap that casts spiritual weapon as a possible alternative to animated objects that don't have limbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    It's also worth mentioning that whilst the maximum enhancement bonus (pre-epic) is +5, when making a bow one can add additional effects that are priced as "+x enchantments" up to a total of +10.

    For example (and by no means optimal) one can have a bow that is:
    +1, flaming, shock, frost, thundering, holy, speed
    This is priced as a +10 weapon while only having an enhancement bonus of +1
    It also does +1d6 file, +1d6 cold, +1d6 electricity, +2d6 untyped (vs evil creatures only), +3d8 sonic (on a critical) and gets an extra attack when making a full attack...

    The other thing to note is that if you can find a friendly person to cast greater magic weapon on your bow you really don't need more than the basic +1 enhancement bonus.

    Things you appear to be getting right, but are often confusing to new players and so worth repeating for confirmation and clarity:
    A weapon must be masterwork (+1 to hit) before it can be enchanted.
    A magic weapon must be at least +1 before any other abilities are added (no +0 flaming bows).
    The +1 to hit from masterwork and the +1 to hit and damage from magic +1 do not stack.

    Edit: Something I forgot that may become confusing...

    What is a mighty composite bow?

    Well, it's a carried over term from 3.0 that is actually very useful.
    As you know a composite bow can have a number of points of strength to damage that are required to use the bow properly. The question is how to represent that number.
    Consider a composite longbow: "longbow, composite +2" - is that magic or strength? Yes most people would write either "+2 composite longbow" or "+2 longbow, composite" for the magic version, but WotC don't.
    In 3.0 "mighty" was the term used to specify the bow's strength rating, and a lot of people still use it in 3.5 for clarity.
    E.g. longbow, composite, mighty +2, +1 flaming - a "+1 flaming" magic composite longbow with a +2 strength requirement.
    Without the "mighty" I would probably write something like: "composite +2 longbow +1 flaming" - but it isn't very nice or clear.
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2014-07-19 at 02:28 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Magical Compound Bow Damage Calculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    It's also worth mentioning that whilst the maximum enhancement bonus (pre-epic) is +5, when making a bow one can add additional effects that are priced as "+x enchantments" up to a total of +10.

    For example (and by no means optimal) one can have a bow that is:
    +1, flaming, shock, frost, thundering, holy, speed
    This is priced as a +10 weapon while only having an enhancement bonus of +1
    It also does +1d6 file, +1d6 cold, +1d6 electricity, +2d6 untyped (vs evil creatures only), +3d8 sonic (on a critical) and gets an extra attack when making a full attack...

    The other thing to note is that if you can find a friendly person to cast greater magic weapon on your bow you really don't need more than the basic +1 enhancement bonus.

    Things you appear to be getting right, but are often confusing to new players and so worth repeating for confirmation and clarity:
    A weapon must be masterwork (+1 to hit) before it can be enchanted.
    A magic weapon must be at least +1 before any other abilities are added (no +0 flaming bows).
    The +1 to hit from masterwork and the +1 to hit and damage from magic +1 do not stack.

    Edit: Something I forgot that may become confusing...

    What is a mighty composite bow?

    Well, it's a carried over term from 3.0 that is actually very useful.
    As you know a composite bow can have a number of points of strength to damage that are required to use the bow properly. The question is how to represent that number.
    Consider a composite longbow: "longbow, composite +2" - is that magic or strength? Yes most people would write either "+2 composite longbow" or "+2 longbow, composite" for the magic version, but WotC don't.
    In 3.0 "mighty" was the term used to specify the bow's strength rating, and a lot of people still use it in 3.5 for clarity.
    E.g. longbow, composite, mighty +2, +1 flaming - a "+1 flaming" magic composite longbow with a +2 strength requirement.
    Without the "mighty" I would probably write something like: "composite +2 longbow +1 flaming" - but it isn't very nice or clear.
    Thank you, this is helpful :D

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