New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 88
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    As a note, when I approach building a Heroic Spirit, I look at what the character does and who they were before I start to construct them in this format.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Robin appears to have no regular spell list, so a player learns no spells when contracting him. The only spell granted by this caster-class spirit appears to be, "You get one spell when you include/install." A bit odd for a caster to grant fewer spells than other spirits. Besides that, the install grants a unique combination of abilities (int and str), but nothing beyond that, and the only use of STR during this install is to buff damage spells. To that end, Tamamo is a clear choice over him.
    I was considering granting him a sword of some kind, but didn't really want him to have the same sort of weapon that his Saber version would. The intent behind his Include was to allow the player to have access to a wider variety of spells than they would normally, but only when they have Robin's tome handy. Unfortunately, I had no idea how to word that properly and just took a stab at the dark.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    If rally spectrum costs 1 round to turn on and stays for free, it might be a good saving grace - it's significantly more powerful than Anderson's passive. I think your "and maintaining" means it doesn't, so I'd call this a hard pick besides the specific spells it grants (below).
    I don't like the idea of it being "free" to maintain, but I suppose that, since it's an untyped bonus, that would work as a balancing factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Of his spells, a few - Magic Missile, Orb of Electricity, and Chain Lightning - are in use by other spirits. The only totally unbalancing spell on the list is darkbolt, which is scaled as a ~4th-5th level spell but given to the vile darkness domain at 2nd. It's one of the best spells for chameleon because it's so incredibly powerful for a 2nd level spell. Mystic Lash is also quite nice. They're even more powerful combined, which this guy can't do, since he can only use 1 per include.
    That was a wording error. The point here was that he'd have access to a few of the spells on his list for the include and then all when he installs. I'll fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    A saber with no attack boost, huh? Looks like he has mostly the same powers as the other build, including caster boosts with no casting restriction. I'm not sure I like that, because it gives a number of options I tried to avoid. I like the stock soul having only 1 caster install/day, so they can't use one to cast full-CL buffs in the morning unless they're blowing their only one on it (or spent feats or ACFs to do so). With this they have that option.
    Wording error on Rally Spectrum. It should apply to all allies, including himself. The bonuses it applies would bring him up to scale with a fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    The spells are dupes with your previous spirit but not with any of mine.
    Intentional. It's an example of a servant belonging to two separate classes, but having a distinction between the two of them based upon what class they were actually summoned as.

    Overall, Robin's intended as the strategist to an army who's picked up his abilities from others, where Iskandar would be the leader of the army. Iskandar would be able to give the army and, through tenacity and leadership alone, would be able to see victory himself. Robin would be the sort who, if he did any prep beforehand, could pick out a target army's weak links and direct his army to exploit them.

    Iskandar provides the army and keeps it together. Robin keeps it efficient and doing what it needs to be doing to succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    The Servant Soul spellcasing already includes the line, "Servant souls incur no penalty for casting spells while holding a weapon granted by any servant soul class feature" so I have you covered there. Flaming Burst can't be gained without flaming, and both are granted by Gawain. Returning and Brilliant Energy are also granted by existing spirits. By giving Brilliant Energy at 16th level, the user now holds a +12 weapon. With two levels in Spiritual Vassal it's +13. Yikes. Note that Brilliant Energy means that the servant is 100% unable to damage or even hit constructs or undead.
    Incorrect on your assessment on Flaming Burst. Flaming Burst includes Flaming, but doesn't require it. However, I didn't catch the ending total. That glaring weakness seems like a good tradeoff, but I'm not one to leave that sort of thing alone. I'll reconsider what to do with it.

    See: http://dndtools.eu/items/dungeon-mas...ng-burst--146/

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I avoided using variable-round-consuming phantasms as the first phantasm, since they are used in Includes, which don't spend rounds but rather terminate upon conclusion. As-is there's no penalty for someone including Phyriss and "spending" 6 rounds, because why spend only 2 or 4? Maybe put a clause in explaining what restrictions, if any, are placed on include-only use.
    I wasn't sure what to do on that. Maybe put a cooldown time on it, lasting double the rounds "spent" if it's done outside of an install?

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    His base install powers are pretty weak. All casters gave some extra boost to balance lack of attack and save bonus, although for some (like Anderson) it was pretty token, since the spirit is carried by other class abilities. Still, besides the int bonus and (standard) CL boost, his install seems like a direct nerf: loss of spell access and all damage swapped to the most common resistance/immunity.
    Admittedly, I wanted to include a resistance/immunity pierce in there a la Searing Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--...g-spell--2540/), but I wasn't sure if it would be too powerful for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Blast Wave is an odd phantasm, in that I never build one like it, so I have little for direct comparison. It nukes the install for a crapton of damage then exits. "Vulnerable to fire" means instead of 4.5/Round it deals about 6.75 and, as written, requires no attack roll and grants no save. Basically, Phyriss has a 1/Day nuke, and the rest of the spirit's powers are weak enough that the nuke is the only defining feature. He makes a good backup spirit for someone that has most mechanical niches already covered, and just wants the occasional explosion. That, or Devoted Soul (Phyriss) and end every encounter in one shot. Because if you went Spirit Affinity (Phyriss) and Spirit Devotion (Phyriss), with 18 starting con and a +2 item by level 6, you're now 3/day shooting 100+ damage to anyone not immune to fire 3/day. Basically, you end every encounter in 1 shot, or are basically useless. And that says nothing about starting as a dragonborn mongrelfolk...
    That's supposed to be the tradeoff for having an otherwise lackluster install. In the right hands, a Phantasm like Blast Wave will nuke a fairly large amount of potentially very dangerous enemies. Where Medea's billed as a strong blaster, Phyriss is meant to do what pyromancers do best: nuke as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time.
    Last edited by Naheal; 2014-07-28 at 07:51 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheal View Post
    Incorrect on your assessment on Flaming Burst. Flaming Burst includes Flaming, but doesn't require it. However, I didn't catch the ending total. That glaring weakness seems like a good tradeoff, but I'm not one to leave that sort of thing alone. I'll reconsider what to do with it.
    Not if Flaming Burst is a synergy property, as Corrosive and Corrosive Burst are in the MIC, and the book suggests that the other energy properties follow suit. I don't like the "synergy" setup cause it makes things more complicated, but MIC is clearly the main reference here so you can't have Burst without base Flaming.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    OK, let me get to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Took a bit of a break since we had no game this week, back with impressions on newest round of spirits:

    Archer Shirou: seriously man, are you trying to kill me? Like, 2 days before this went up I was thinking, "Hey, you know what'd be nice if we had to run for cover again? Blockade. Too bad it's nowhere near the Servant Soul lists." And then this guy has it, along with some actual reflex spells in slime and bands. The non-bludgeoning clause in Overedge seems weird but I get it what with how his magic works. I don't see a Teleporting property in MIC: do you mean Dislocating (MIC) for moving people when you hit them, or Teleporting (XPH) for having it teleport back to your hand? Floating feat install is awesome. Does the throwing part of Crane-stuff give you full bonus on both weapons, or does it iterative? Also, what happens if you try to Overedge during the second half of Crane and run out of rounds? I think it ends the install before you finish the attack but you could add "install" to the non-termination clause of Overedge if you want to allow it.
    - Yes, MIC Teleporting is a typo. So is Major Creation being from SpC.
    - If you blow your phantasm trying to deal more damage in it, nuts to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Berserker Lu Bu: the defense on his install is a lot less "proactive" but it's still berserkery. The Arcane Might weapon ability is normally so bad it offends me, but that sense has been suspended for Servant Soul stuff. Mid-range berserker does what it says on the tin. That spell list sure does tell a story, I guess Lu Bu wasn't a very nice guy.
    He's just misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Krusk note: I don't know what book that is for Krusk's second weapon ability, but with Lu Bu getting a DC20 shaken on every hit from Domineering compared to Krusk's DC11 on crits only I do hope the Krusk's second is more powerful. I also don't think Krusk's fear immunity piercing is very good. I'm guessing you didn't want to allow the Dread Witch clause were extra HD let you ignore it anyway (seems to be based on Improved Uncanny Dodge?), but a +4 on the save seems pretty big. I don't have any experience actually trying to fear stack though, maybe it ends up not so bad.
    His second ability: Every time he attacks, all enemies within 30 feet have to make a DC16 save or get shaken, and if shaken they panic. It's from Deities and Demigods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Caster Tamamo: love the unlimited warlock blasting, hate the Ranged shield ability (no one will convince me that throwing shields is not dumb). Taking a second look at Bestial Sky even just the double damage is pretty huge, better than maximizing, but it's quite well offset by needing to break resistance on your own or cut the damage a bit with Shattefloor. Still needs a reminder that you intend to treat each projectile of a volley spell as it's own hit, so as to multiply the int damage bonus.
    I don't see why that's a necessary clarification. I guess I could change it to "whenever she rolls damage of that damage type" instead of "inflicts" to make it clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Lancer Liz: I'm a bit sad seeing crit abilities on single threat range weapons, oh well. Nice to have another flying install, makes Medea seem a bit less OP. Sonic damage everywhere, the nauseate on Demoness is nice, though it reminds me of Drake's stun which I think has been reduced so that's good. I've seen that Spectral Dragon spell before and I thought it was bonkers, but by the time it comes up for Servant Souls it won't be any more. She makes a nice alternative to Cu if you want to focus on the booms and would rather have debuffs than Improved Blink. '
    Spectral Dragon is actually one of my favorite spells in high-op play. Get Body Outside Body, get spectral dragon as a Sp/Su ability, possibly combine with sonorous hum. Bam, summon your army of level-reducing backup dancers.

    Oh, and on Drake: I think her phantasm is crazy good, but at the same time, I haven't seen anybody pick her. Somehow Drake just seems less cool than other riders. Not sure how to fix it. If you're wondering, it hasn't been reduced in power since being made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I already talked about Iskander. Drake's off with "1D6 electricity damage for each of class level," and I think Medusa's use of "disembodies" is a little awkward. /nitpick
    Fair. I'll get to it sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Saber Gawain: now this guy is another game-changer, even if he's built to be simple. That Sun Blade is huge if you ask me with it's extra +2 enhancement vs. your opposed alignment and double damage vs. undead all the time (might or might not change that to deathless for evil wielders). Arturia's Holy is good but this shows up earlier. He's got flat bonuses up the wazoo that are perfect for everyone that's not me and thus using Power Attack and shores you up if your own numbers aren't so good. Honestly not sure if you'd noticed the x2 vs undead thing, hopefully that won't get it killed like the rhino. I love the use of interesting weapons that people never seem to use here and there: modified Gauntlet of Blades, Sun Blade, Tentacle Rod, very nice.
    Gawain's pretty mechanically simple in the source material. His primary defining feature was basically "He's quite skilled." So, flat bonuses.

    Sun Blade's extra +2 enhancement takes the place of the first +2 WSA (at 7 and 10), but from levels 3 to 9 it's a definite boost.

    I'd swap it to killing deathless if I'd literally ever seen a deathless in play. Iskander's summons and Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are the only times I've seen them referenced. Have you ever seen a deathless at a table? I haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    For new spirit ideas, I don't remember if I mentioned before but there was a show Day Break Illusion (on Crunchyroll anyway, I preferred "Phantom Piercing Sun" myself) that I immediately thought could make a set of spirits. It had it's flaws but I liked it a lot, needless to say it doesn't have comparable recognition . The characters had powers based on the "elemental tarot," and including the antagonist I think there's enough to fill out out a set. It was a short show, the attacks demonstrated would be pretty simple except maybe the antagonist's. Would probably have to just make some up for the side characters though. Heck, really it'd just be nice to hear of someone else watching it. /tangent
    I'm currently looking into matching up RWBY, a poser web series with good choreography very clearly written by non-writers. The main 8 characters use: A Scythe, a Rapier, Gauntlets, a Mighty Whip-Dagger (well, close enough), a Warhammer, a Heavy Steel Shield + Salamander Halfspear, a pair of Dart Thrusters (totally not guns), and a Shielding Longsword (I'd cut this guy). I like the weapon spread and I'd start on the spirits if only I could figure out which one is caster. They all tend to spend their time punching... I'm actually thinking of making the spearwoman caster due to an esoteric type/moon loophole, and the scythe user Lancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Regarding Nanoha, I disagree that re-naming Atlanta would do. Aside from the spell lists that you've carefully customized to each spririt, I don't think of her as "full attack and outdoor AoE." Uh, spoiler I guess? (The fight scenes in a fighting show are important).
    Spoiler: nanoha spoilers
    Show
    I remember more sending programmed smart projectiles after things, the seeker drones she used to find the person in the ship and then using her nuke level blasting (while specifically inside the ship) to hit someone she couldn't see though the walls. That and using her full power attack putting her in rehab for a year. Don't remember much about the fights in the previous seasons, but in the manga she's using huge flying gun/shield/somethings now in addition to her staff. Sure she shoots lots of projectiles and nukes, but since her main shtick of blowing up everything including the building is a bit too huge for DnD you could focus on something else.

    There's still mechanics left unexplored: she could have a volley attack instead of a full attack, either spell style or Manyshot style. Cartridges could be represented with their own fancy bits, or her weapon could be another staff like Mialee's, or she could be berserker archer, or archer berserker. Raging Heart is clearly an intelligent item, none of those yet. I do think that the number of spirits is getting up there and they shouldn't just start swapping abilities so much that classes don't matter, 5 sets is already enough and more than 7 would be too many, but I think if you really want to go to 7 you can pull it off. I still prefer the anime characters, but if you're down to the dregs of Type/Moon then go ahead and skip them if they're problematic. Naturally I'd love a set of Madokas and Nanohas, but if one proves too difficult then I suppose a round of public domains wouldn't be too bad.

    Hesitantly, I'm interested to see what you'd have in mind for Kyubey. The caveat is that actually using him would make me barf.
    Actually, that's very close to my unpublished nanoha design (her install phantasm is Wide Area Search, at any rate). I was just using her as an example of mechanical overlap.

    Oh, in my ideas scratchpad I list out spirits like this:

    Spoiler: Madoka
    Show
    Archer: Madoka (Alt. Caster) - Some bow
    Assassin: Homura (Caster) - Buckler
    Berserker: Mami (Archer, Caster) - Heavy Xbow?
    Caster: QB - Special
    Lancer: Kyouko (Assassin) - ???
    Rider: Nagisa - Trumpet???
    Saber: Sayaka (Berserker) -Elven Thinblade


    Here's my listing for Nanoha:
    Spoiler: Nanoha
    Show
    Archer: Nanoha (Alt. Caster) - Explosions
    Assassin: Teana (Alt. Archer?) - Explosions
    Berserker: Vita - Warhammer
    Caster: Hayate (Alt. Archer) - Explosions
    Lancer: Fate (Alt. Saber) - Scythe?
    Rider: Lutecia (Alt. Caster) - None
    Saber: Signum (Alt. Assassin) - What sword have I not used? Mercurial GS?
    So you can see why that's proving more difficult to make a full set.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Oh, in my ideas scratchpad I list out spirits like this:

    Spoiler: Madoka
    Show
    Archer: Madoka (Alt. Caster) - Some bow
    Assassin: Homura (Caster) - Buckler
    Berserker: Mami (Archer, Caster) - Heavy Xbow?
    Caster: QB - Special
    Lancer: Kyouko (Assassin) - ???
    Rider: Nagisa - Trumpet???
    Saber: Sayaka (Berserker) -Elven Thinblade
    Kyouko could easily have access to a greatspear (CW) and Mami could use a musket (DMG p145)

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Here's my listing for Nanoha:
    Spoiler: Nanoha
    Show
    Archer: Nanoha (Alt. Caster) - Explosions
    Assassin: Teana (Alt. Archer?) - Explosions
    Berserker: Vita - Warhammer
    Caster: Hayate (Alt. Archer) - Explosions
    Lancer: Fate (Alt. Saber) - Scythe?
    Rider: Lutecia (Alt. Caster) - None
    Saber: Signum (Alt. Assassin) - What sword have I not used? Mercurial GS?
    So you can see why that's proving more difficult to make a full set.
    Caro is another possibility for Caster or Rider, having access to both Friedrich and Voltaire as summons and using gloves to assist in summoning spells only.
    Last edited by Naheal; 2014-07-29 at 05:11 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheal View Post
    Caro is another possibility for Caster or Rider, having access to both Friedrich and Voltaire as summons and using gloves to assist in summoning spells only.
    I like Lutecia better, because I could fill her include with a slowly-upgrading Amulet of Vermin (MIC). It's a repurposed idea from Bluebeared before I settled on Tentacle Rod, and it fits her as a bug summoner.

    I don't have any clue how I'd use Caro in includes, but then I haven't read most of the mangas or seen strikers since it came out.

    I was looking at muskets recently. She could use one so long as she had a respawn mechanic. Maybe "Spawns with muskets = class level, can conjure back up to this number with a standard action" or something. And possibly make them quick drawable, I think eager or another WSA can do it.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I don't have any clue how I'd use Caro in includes, but then I haven't read most of the mangas or seen strikers since it came out.
    Well, Caro's primarily support, but I think I'd want to give her another take on the Obsidian (creature) figures. Probably an Obsidian Dragonling or something like that. Her Install should probably be something along the lines of turning Fried into a full sized, ride-able dragon.

    Hmm. I'll put some work into making her and post it up.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I don't see why that's a necessary clarification. I guess I could change it to "whenever she rolls damage of that damage type" instead of "inflicts" to make it clearer.
    Complete Arcane makes a big deal about how you only get bonus damage on spells once, and it's the only book that comes close to making a blanket ruling how abilities that give bonus spell damage work. Warmage edge only applies to one missile or ray, and sneak attack or Ranged Spell Specialization only work on the first ray of Scorching ray (similar: Ice Darts). I don't know where but I seem to remember it being justified by all the shots being fired simultaneously: since you have to designate targets before rolling attacks that makes sense, and if you only get the damage once then it would only boost one ray. Even a "whenever she rolls damage" line could be ignored since you roll for damage simultaneously, so it's only one "roll." For someone who hasn't read the above they'd probably add the bonus damage on every missile just like you intend (because it's the awesome way), but I'd expect anyone who's tried to cheese Warmage Edge before to have my same question, which is why I feel it's necessary.
    Oh, and on Drake: I think her phantasm is crazy good, but at the same time, I haven't seen anybody pick her. Somehow Drake just seems less cool than other riders. Not sure how to fix it. If you're wondering, it hasn't been reduced in power since being made.
    Yeah, I was aiming for Drake before but I got bored of the idea of the storm before our first level up, let alone using it. It would probably help if her weapon wasn't completely utterly useless, and the first phantasm is just small. Even more so than other riders, Drake is completely focused on the second phantasm, and it's so strong it's boring. Bam, wind and lightning both force saves every round till they're dead. I'd thought the stun duration was rounds=level before, rounds=con mod is smaller but still huge. A caster that layers spells until they've got wind/lightning/bombardment every round feels good about their build, but just picking Drake and getting the whole thing is too easy. Compared to chains/stone gaze/charging/better charging/armies/giant sword, it's just not cool enough to hold attention.
    I'd swap it to killing deathless if I'd literally ever seen a deathless in play. Iskander's summons and Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are the only times I've seen them referenced. Have you ever seen a deathless at a table? I haven't.
    Oh I haven't seen any either. Supposed to be some in Eberron and I followed a link to a homebrew setting around here that was setting them up but that's it. Just figured I'd mention it. Glad you seem fine with the multiplier
    I'm currently looking into matching up RWBY,
    Ah, another series I haven't watched. Seen the trailer, sounds like a safe bet. Dart Thrusters have a bunch of unanswered questions in their mechanics, otherwise I'd have one on every character.
    ideas scratchpad I list out spirits like this:
    I don't think you should stress too much about finding unique exotic variants for every spirit, if the only thing stopping you is not having enough different ways to shape a pointy bit of metal then just let loose.
    Spoiler: do I have any ideas?
    Show

    -Madoka bow: well there's Bone and Great bows (Frost, CW) left and depending on the art her bow could be huge.
    -Mami: I'd just give her a musket right out of the DMG. It could free reload or just poof new copies as a free action. Damage would be pretty dang low for either since no composite.
    -Kyouko: all the normal looking spears are taken, but a Manti's extra AoO is kinda mean, or a Duom has almost-versatile reach (AEG). A pointy Longaxe could also do the extendy thing. A Ripper for pure damage (PlH). I don't think she's ever delivered an effect through it or it could be a Spellflinging Spear specifically (RoD?). Just saying the "weapon" can resize to anything from a short/trident?/normal/long spear should be enough, no other spear users have Sizing yet. I'd make it a free action too because nyeh.
    -Nagisa: I honestly have no idea what she attacked with, don't remember. I'd have to go over the movie again.

    -Nanoha: a blasty stick. A staff with shooty spells instead of Mialee's area spells. Maybe a modified Rod of Force. The Nightblade of Arvandor lets you shoot force bits in place of attacks but the wording's a bit wonky. (MIC, BoED, update to Stars of Arvandor in CoV)
    -Teana: was she the guns or the powerfist? You already mentioned Dart Thrusters and there's plenty of gauntlet weapons to powerfist with.
    -Hayate: a blasty book? I don't think I've ever seen her do less than a full nuke, she doesn't really have normal attacks. A possible new mechanic might be an Include that gives you full caster level rather than weapons: it'd contrast the other casters that don't need you to cast spells while they're active. Or maybe a buff or tactical effect since she's supposed to be giving orders.
    -Fate: scythe is probably good, I think all the other forms were supposed to be over-limit modes.
    -Signum: this is why you shouldn't sweat the weapons, otherwise you wall off every character with a sword from this point on. I'd much rather see beloved and interesting characters with overlapping weapons than stuff you were trying to avoid, or chosen just because they have something weird (Your comment on RWBY: it might have nice fight scenes, but if the writing doesn't even hit low-anime tier I probably won't care about the characters so they'll just be mechanics who's origins I forget). That said, if you're counting Mercurial weapons you could add in some Heavy weapons (platinum and gold from MoF), those technically require an exotic feat. Other swords not in use include: Broadblade Shortsword, Quickblade Rapier, Khopesh, Great Scimitar/Falcion, Straightblade, or the Jovar (CAv, Sand ,PlH), if they come up. I don't see a problem repeating staples like Bastard Sword and Composite Longbow if necessary, one or two dupes is okay.

    Related to weapon choices: you know, I can't recall a character from anything animated or game-ified that used a quarterstaff. Magic staves, double-swords, and spinning polearms galore, but no stickfighting. Guess a stick just doesn't look dangerous enough unless it's a tree or shaped like a sword.

    [Edit: woah, triple ninja'd]
    Last edited by Fizban; 2014-07-30 at 07:20 AM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I'm currently looking into matching up RWBY, a poser web series with good choreography very clearly written by non-writers. The main 8 characters use: A Scythe, a Rapier, Gauntlets, a Mighty Whip-Dagger (well, close enough), a Warhammer, a Heavy Steel Shield + Salamander Halfspear, a pair of Dart Thrusters (totally not guns), and a Shielding Longsword (I'd cut this guy). I like the weapon spread and I'd start on the spirits if only I could figure out which one is caster. They all tend to spend their time punching... I'm actually thinking of making the spearwoman caster due to an esoteric type/moon loophole, and the scythe user Lancer.
    I can't believe that I missed this because I actually do watch this thing. One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of these weapons are intentionally hybrid weapons or transforming weapons. If there's ever an argument for sharing weapon enchantments, this theme is one of them.

    Ruby (Scythe) herself would work best as Lancer. I'm thinking of an acrobatic fighter and a tactician whenever I see her fighting with her scythe.

    Weiss (Rapier) could easily function as Saber, but her combat style fits better as Caster, truth be told. Outside of her trailer, she rarely actually seems to use her rapier for much of anything and relies far more heavily on her glyphs. Considering the size of her weapon, I'd suggest using the stats for an elven lightblade (CW) for her.

    Yang (Gauntlets) works as Archer or Caster. Berserker also has potential for her. When she's got her red shells loaded up, she's got an actual projectile that she fires into her targets. What's more, despite the fact that she fights mostly like a boxer, the shotgun blasts seem to be what do the most damage and she uses them all the damned time. I'd suggest bracers that give benefits akin to some form of a Monk's unarmed damage.

    Blake (Whip-dagger) is almost aggressively Assassin with a sub in Saber. Her weapon would be the more challenging one to make, but I'm thinking broadblade short sword (CA) which functions as a sheath for a standard short sword which can transform into a kusarigama (Oriental Adventures)

    I'm not entirely sure what to do with the other team, since there's so little information about them, but I'm beginning to see problems in the class system in relation to how we'd classify some characters. I'd have a hard time, for instance, classifying the hammer user as Berserker, despite her supposed inspiration (Thor), but she doesn't really fit under any other class.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    A few comments on RWBY:

    Saber is traditionally one of the more magically inclined classes after Caster. Arturia mentioned she qualifies for Caster due purely to knowledge of magical runes. That's why I was thinking Phyrra would be a fit, she's so knowledgeable, but in the mean time Weiss's rune magic fits. Also, I am totally psyched to finally have a Saber using (nearly) a saber.

    I chose Yang for rider because she rides a motorcycle. You could get more esoteric and use, I dunno, Penny and have some bizarre justification for what she "rides." I figured Yang would just be easier. For weapons, she can use either gauntlets or Spring-Loaded Gauntlets.

    Nora seems like the best fit for berserker because the requirement is a person that's gone berserk. I feel like her in combat kinda counts.

    Note that for Dart Thruster, you can resolve all issues by saying any unspecified mechanics are identical to a light repeating xbow. In other words: Light weapon, reload swaps all 3 darts, etc.

    If I made a RWBY set, I think every include phantasm would be a weapon transform (or equivalent mechanics).

    On Nanoha:

    I'd probably give Hayate some crazy nuke for her include. Full CL fits thematically, it just sort of breaks a few tenets I had on class design. For Nanoha I was thinking a wand of Orb of Force, but I'll look into your ideas.

    I am a bit tempted, if I make a full nanoha set, to create a cartridge subsystem to use on Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Signum and Vita's characters. It probably shouldn't take a phantasm - they have enough named attacks and whatnot - but maybe each one begins the include with a certain number of shells, and as a swift action they burn it for one turn of various bonuses. For instance, Nanoha begins with shells = 1/2 Class Level (maybe less). She burns one to empower the next orb of force from her wand. That sort of thing.

    I am psyched to write Signum. One of her phantasms makes it so that she can treat her included weapon as a sword or spiked chain for a round, chosen for every attack, and possibly grants a shield bonus.

    I don't want Caro's include to summon a dragon because I don't feel like it would be balanced at level 1. And if it were it would be a monster of a project making sure all dragon types balance out. 1+Con Mod is easily the length of a level 1 battle, and dragons rock. Also unless she'd have another spam include (like Tamamo) she wouldn't have a combat action encouraged by her class. If I see a servant soul pull out a dagger I feel like I've failed.

    Amulet of Vermin is a bit easier to control, I think.

    There's also the possibility of adapting one (either one, really) as the include just summoning a chosen creature from the appropriate SM list for the duration. The problem is that the standard scaling (Scaling with enhancement bonuses, like Anderson, so 5th level spell at 15) feels weak - it's not that weak, but it feels weak, just due to the numbers - whereas offering full SM (8th at 15) is way too strong for this class.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I am psyched to write Signum. One of her phantasms makes it so that she can treat her included weapon as a sword or spiked chain for a round, chosen for every attack, and possibly grants a shield bonus.
    The sheathe at least would grant a shield bonus, but keep in mind that Signum also qualifies for Archer. If she's in that Saber class, though, I'd be hesitant to give her the bow form of Laevatein.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheal View Post
    The sheathe at least would grant a shield bonus, but keep in mind that Signum also qualifies for Archer. If she's in that Saber class, though, I'd be hesitant to give her the bow form of Laevatein.
    I would love to keep it in mind but, unfortunately, I've scrubbed that from my brain. It was just so, so dumb. It looked dumb and was dumb. "Form of... a bow!"

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    3.1: Seven new spirits, based on the Nanoha franchise! The three aces (Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate) are joined by two cloud knights (Signum and Vita), a forward (Teana) and a summoner (Lutecia). New feat: Broken Phantasm. Fixed a typo in Luvia’ stat block and fixed several small style issues in heroic spirits. Disallowed power attack with Gae Bolg (you bet it came up in play). Placed a minimum of 1 die/increase on phantasms.
    This new set of spirits was a lot of fun to make (except Rider) and, I hope, will be fun to play as well. I aimed for a bit higher than my average power, because why would you balance against the worst of things, when the only real consideration is which thing is best? I'm thinking of buffing some of the weaker spirits in the future.

    Nanoha has a lot of characters. A second or even third set would be possible. However, the 5 ones I wanted to make have been made, so it's not really a priority.

    I did end up using a number of ideas from this thread, such as Hayate's full-CL include. So, thanks!

    Edit: Mostly a bookkeeping update, but here's 3.2:

    3.2: Clarified that servant souls can always use magical items summoned by class abilities. Added a (mostly flavor) ability to transform a held weapon into included weapons. Upped include time at level 1 (from level/2 to level/2 min 1). Added a new alternate class feature (Adapted Soul) and related feat (Spirit Versatility).
    The ACF and feat were an idea me and Nekomata brainstormed a bit. Also, this update is probably full of typos because I am tired.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Archer Nanoha: I admit, my first thought is that's too much blast power. Even without the cartidges she's got 4x as many shots as Mialee's staff, or twice as much damage as Tamamo's energy blast and without typing, and with the limit on composite rating I'm pretty sure she'll handly out-damage archers that aren't melee or nonlethal, and she does it with a touch attack. It makes other archers dependent on their longer ranges to compete in weapon effectiveness. I also have to note the irony that include phantasms are balanced toward 2nd level spells or just generally 1d6/2 levels upgrading to 1d6/level under circumstance, but she has a lv4 spell over and over as the main weapon. I suggested the blasty stick myself (nice chambering in staff btw), but I was thinking more a range of Magic Missiles and stuff set up like Mialee's rather than just a pile of free Orbs of Force. I'd feel really bad for a warlock having to play alongside Nanoha, even just a dip+Strengthened Connection is enough to make one weep. Half caster level sounds harsh and makes it really weak in the first few levels but 1/2 or 2/3 CL is what I'd drop it to. The charge limit also hurts at low level so if you took her then it'd be to combo after your other phantasm anyway. All of that said, I admit I don't actually have any experience with an orb-spammer character-I've DM'd for a Warlock with a number of damage boosters and I expect Nanoha's weapon would go about the same, but he was replaced by the archer so I didn't see them side-by-side. That's just her weapon, but obviously she's put most of her "points" into it.

    The Starlight Breaker's a pretty cool combo piece, I like the install modes though still sour seeing a common bonus type (deflection) showing up, Wide Area Search is handy enough and the spell list is good.

    Assassin Teana: ranged assassin, damage close enough to composite longbow, sudden strike in install to boost output, all good. Nice to have an assassin that can just go full invisible, assuming you want to keep it simple instead of messing with people.

    Berserker Vita: my first thought is hey finally another blunt weapon! And it's another berserker, only berserkers may fight liches (or like 3 different archers but what?). I could have sworn one version of the greathammer got errata'd, but I don't think there's MM4 errata so I guess that version stands and it is beast. Size and reach increasing, concealment at range is an interesting defensive ability, smashing walls of force, good. Mantle of Pure Spite is quite a high level spell but far more appropriate here than a full caster's list, cool.

    Caster Hayate: handy weapon, nifty phantasm, more install modes, serious charging phantasm. I can't agree with the "extreme ranges" line when medium range spells beat it until 12th level, especially when Nanoha's forced normal archers to back up and reminded us that bows shoot pretty far already, and that's not counting her Unison Mode doubling range on spells that already have medium or long range. For the spells, are you really sure you want Shivering Touch on there, or anywhere near Servant Soul? I know your group's got more power than mine but I was under the impression that spell was pretty universally hated. Grave Mist is nice, Orb of Dancing Death is pretty underpowered without Extend if you ask me, the Malevolent Tentacles are a nice finisher. I do like how her spells are all so evily.

    Lancer Fate: just about everything's groovy here too. I've already mentioned my distaste for crit abilities, but it's a thing at least. You might want to specify about line of sight and/or effect for that teleport phantasm, going through walls or teleporting out of stomachs being obvious uses. I would have expected just a move action but this is the grail spirit/noble phantasm version so it's appropriate, thus I don't know if you intended the teleport to go through walls.

    Rider Lutecia: well now that's interesting. I don't really feel like going over all the bug stat blocks but a quick check shows those grow far faster than the Summon Monster line. Dagger barrage is pretty cool. The Imbued Summoning install mechanic is very cool, but brings her individual spell list into play. Greater Elementals and Giants work fine and their adjusted effective level is right, but I don't even know how you'd buff locusts and the Desert Ally spells are so terrible they offend me: the Dustform template is crap and the summon list can't seem to decide if it's is equal to or better than Celestial/Fiendish, so the monsters are all over the place, most weaker but then some moved down a list as if to compensate for losing all their abilities. The Frostburn version Conjure Ice Beast on the other hand is a bit overpowered, but at least it works. Now for level 1 and 2 it's not so bad and possibly even worth it to use Desert Ally since the smaller creatures will have very high AC that might let them breath weapon more than once even though they lose all poison/trip/pounce, but thank god you didn't take it any higher. So anyway, yeah Lutecia's kinda cool. Shouldn't have any problems with the second phantasm it's also a nice unique ability.

    Saber Signum: I assume the sheath retains the base enhancement bonus so it's useful. I like deflecting lasers and removing ongoing effects, slippery mind everything is a bit more berserkery than vita but basically any Nanoha character could berserker. The language of "any unwanted effect" is a bit at odds with "able to act" since most unwanted effects people are afraid of remove or control your actions, thus I'm not sure what it works on here. It's very Iron Heart Surge: can Signum beat poison, disease, sunstroke? Biting Snake is a nice area-denial, I would figure that when it's active your sword always strikes as a spiked chain but it doesn't specify.

    New ACF and feat for floating spirits seems natural, continues to provide tons of options with a sharp limit on how much you can do on any given turn. I could see taking one or the other for a slanted build focusing on a certain style and using the less fitting classes for variable utility so yeah.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Archer Nanoha
    I built Archer Nanoha based on a few things: First, she gets 1 charge per level, compared to 60 arrows. Second, she gets no iterative attacks (or other tricks of bows: flurry, AoO arrows for EMIYA), only standard action activation. And, of course, the orb of force gets no WSAs such as splitting. That said, it targets touch AC, so yes it IS powerful. And being more powerful than Mialee's staff was 100% intentional, because Mialee's staff was built to suck.

    Here's my reasoning: A single arrow from a servant soul (assuming 16 strength at level 3) deals 1D8+4 damage, or 8.5. That's only 2 less than the orb, and every archer has a phantasm boosting their arrows (or stones) except for Nanoha. And, of course, use limits suck because your include time at 3rd level is 5-6 rounds. So Archer beats you there.

    At sixth level, without installs, you deal an average of 21 damage. Assuming that by now you have a +2 Strength item, your arrows deal 1D8+6, or 10.5 damage. So you have to hit twice to equal the damage of an orb of force. Nanoha definitely wins this one, although if she installs without aggressor mode, the other archers will beat her in installs.

    At level 9, Nanoha beats Warlock and archers, barring special abilities.

    At level 12, Nanoha deals 12D6 to a warlock's 11D6 with blast shape an essences. Definitely not worth the extra 1D6. Meanwhile, David and Atalanta are flurrying with 4 attacks and no penalty, dealing around 1D8+9 per hit for Atalanta (1 level from Splitting), or 1D8+9+1D6+Paralysis for David. Soveliss deals 1D8+9+1D6 and attacks a line, deals +4 in installs, and can poison in installs. So they can put on a show here as well. EMIYA falls behind on damage without an install; his power is wasted at midrange.

    At level 15, Nanoha peaks in power, and orb of force hits its dice cap. It's all downhill from there. Meanwhile, the other archers are dealing 1D8+10 with 3-5 shots, and the very next level get their crowning weapon abilities.

    So that was my logic, combined with the fact that her spells are defensive in nature. It might be a bit powerful, but she suffers at lower levels and can't do anything besides damage except when using her install phantasm (and fly in some installs), as opposed to paralysis/nonlethal damage/exhaustion from David, Movement/Vampire Shots from Atalanta (who also has a more active spell list), super long range/threatening in melee from EMIYA (plus blade spells and a better install phantasm), and Soveliss, who has a number of tricks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Assassin Teana
    Yeah, the idea was an assassin who could work outside of a 30-foot range. I think it ended up reasonably strong, but a bit boring, because her abilities force a comparison with wizards (while other assassins force comparisons with rogues). You see major image and ask, "is that really her most powerful move?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Berserker Vita
    Hey, only TWO archers get bludgeoning weapons, Shirou can't make any. Anyway, Vita's a pretty simple build. Have hammer, have bigger hammer, punch people with your hammer, drill through walls of force with your hammer. Done and done. Again, it feels boring when I look at it since it's mostly numbers. But they are very good numbers, and her Gefängnis der Magie keeps kiting casters from going too far. And mantle of pure spite is the first spell above 6th level I've used in the class, mostly because why on earth is it above 6th level? It would be a reasonable 4th level spell. I mean, you get a +1 every time they hit you? Are you fighting someone that deals less than 10% of your health every hit? If the mantle helps you against an enemy, you probably didn't need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Caster Hayate
    You brought me around on the weapon, because I couldn't think of anything better, heh. Her phantasm is pretty extreme range for a phantasm, which never use standard spell ranges, but yeah it takes a bit to pass spells themselves. I initially wanted her phantasms to be really hard to aim and you had to use unison mode to remove that, but it ended up super clunky and unattractive so I dropped it.

    Shivering touch is included here because 1) it comes at 8th level, 2) there is no situation in which you get an attack bonus aiming it, and 3) casters should get good spells. I think even with the other spirits I tried to make sure caster lists stood out. Certainly Medea's. Mialee's get some powerful metaspell synergy. Anderson has a good 4th and 5th level. Etc. Tamamo's list is mostly just good with her phantasm. Hayate's spell list in the show is based around eeeevvvviiiilll and cold. So I made her list here cold and negative levels.

    I may think up a solid replacement for shivering touch, but so far it's my top pick for the third level slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Lancer Fate
    Not too much to say about Fate except that her cartridge use is a result of being out of ideas for her. I tried a number of things and didn't like them. I'll probably change the phantasm to specify either line of sight or LoE, I'll figure it out later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Rider Lutecia
    Man, how underwhelming would it be if you got a level-appropriate summon monster as your power? That would suck (although be kinda useful out of combat, as her current power is. She can actually ride them, appropriately, and gets flight at decent levels because of it).

    For her spell list, I tried to pick interesting summons but ALL of the interesting summons are levels 5+, so I had to improvise. You should've seen my scratchpad, I had a dozen picks for that level 5 spot, and decided on giants because it's one of the best summoning spells in the game. On the lower end, I chose summon spells that had a bunch of vermin on them. I've decided that Garyuu is probably a heavily-templated, well-buffed Formian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Saber Signum
    All weapons summoned use the standard enhancement, including stuff like Nanoha's staff. The idea of her slippery mind was that it wouldn't work while unconscious or dead. If it's unclear I can probably ditch that. It's just based on the fact that she's known as being resistant to binds. I left the sword form ambiguous during the phantasms so you wouldn't have to nerf your damage. You lose the ability to hit at reach at will, but tough, cause you're spinning everything around and that would probably be kinda hard to do. Her cartridges originally gave you sword or chain, swap at will for 1 round, but I debuffed it a bit.

    Anyway, I tried to make every spirit here do something unique, have useful numbers (although direct comparisons to other spirits can be tricky), and be somewhat flavorful. I fully expect them to outpower some existing spirits like Atalanta at midlevels, Hassan, Bluebeard, Ember, and maybe Gawain. Possily Tamamo as well, who I'm flirting with granting iteratives. Buffing the weaker guys is always at the back of my mind. That said, of course, I said in my goals that some spirits work best at some level ranges. They don't have to have homogenous power curves, even if that would be pleasant.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    At level 12, Nanoha deals 12D6 to a warlock's 11D6 with blast shape an essences.
    Warlock 11d6, is that hellfire binder or a steady stream of Gauntlets of Admixture, or probably counting the extra dice from Vitriolic Blast? I'd forgotten about Atlanta's Splitting, no wonder I'd had her on my to do list. Your numbers are convincing enough then, I'm using Emiya and he's the only one without a real damage boost so the fact that I'm relying on uber-bard skewed me a bit lower.
    Yeah, the idea was an assassin who could work outside of a 30-foot range. I think it ended up reasonably strong, but a bit boring, because her abilities force a comparison with wizards (while other assassins force comparisons with rogues). You see major image and ask, "is that really her most powerful move?"
    Nah I'm just lazy, a well used Major Image with a DM that doesn't hose illusions is crazy good.
    Hey, only TWO archers get bludgeoning weapons, Shirou can't make any. Anyway, Vita's a pretty simple build.
    I count David with blunt, Emiya with the Force property, and I guess Nanoha's Orbs also beat DR. Though you caught me on forgetting Shirou's blades only bit.
    I may think up a solid replacement for shivering touch, but so far it's my top pick for the third level slot.
    Hey now, as a touch spell you know perfectly well it hardly needs help aiming. I can't think of a good replacement off the top either. Arg, now I just remembered I forgot a different spell I was going to suggest for something.
    Anyway, I tried to make every spirit here do something unique, have useful numbers (although direct comparisons to other spirits can be tricky), and be somewhat flavorful. I fully expect them to outpower some existing spirits like Atalanta at midlevels, Hassan, Bluebeard, Ember, and maybe Gawain. Possily Tamamo as well, who I'm flirting with granting iteratives. Buffing the weaker guys is always at the back of my mind. That said, of course, I said in my goals that some spirits work best at some level ranges. They don't have to have homogenous power curves, even if that would be pleasant.
    Mission accomplished. I've yet to a see a spirit completely without merit even if I'd pass on quite a few myself, and they definitely lend themselves to different level ranges.

    Game session update: our DM has junked the module because it's been terrible and is going off the rails, starting with what I'm pretty sure is a 180* by the initial quest giver. Mostly plot stuff but we did have a quick fight against a Bebilith demon: DR continues to infuriate me as I advise the new players and then hit DR one grade higher than expected. I'd buy myself an Angelhelm but that won't help anyone else (d'oh, forgot to tell them about Fiendslayer crystals). I just lobbed searing maxed fireballs at it to avoid risking my Relic armor to it's claws. There was also chasing down a caster after I botched a series of listen checks and got stole from in the middle of a tent in another tent with a guard, which was also resolved by lobbing fireballs.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    I was assuming HFW but no chasuble of fell power in that calculation. a Greater Chasuble, affordable by then, is 2 Dice while vitriolic deals 2 dice/round (total of 6 dice). If you want to optimize, mortalbane adds 2 dice 5/day. The gloves add 2-4 dice when used and, unlike many charged items, are very cheap and have no attunement time.

    Also, HFW really don't need binder. You lose 1 con/attack. If you're in 3 encounters in a day, and each one lasts 5 rounds, during which you use eldritch blast 4 times, that's just 12k on rods of bodily restoration (or more than cover yourself with 5-10 eternal wands of lesser resto). Always seemed cheaper than a class level to me, as long as you're not a glaivelock sitting in melee.

    ...At the same time I convinced you, I kind of unconvinced myself. Even though at players should be phantasm-spamming by midlevels, it is annoying that the orb can match that damage without using one. I'll keep tinkering.

    Hah, I actually just realized that Nanoha has a staff, David has a sling, and Emiya has an elvencraft bow (a staff). So yes, three do deal bludgeoning damage, and two of those can also do force damage. Black Knight, Vita, Lu Bu, Bluebeard, Lutecia sorta, Signum, and maybe Vadania also have reliable sources of either bludgeoning or force damage. And of course many servants can do various energy damage.

    I approve of your methods of conflict resolution. I'm sure V would have words to say on it.

    Edit:

    3.2.1: New feat: Spiritual Cacophony. Elizabeth Bathory’s install phantasm now scales nausea on her con mod. Tamamo-no-Mae’s witchcraft now gains iterative attacks. Fixed some typos.
    I think Tamamo is adequately powerful now. Her Averter shield buffs her from 4-7 until she gets her iterative.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    demidracolich's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    I have a question, since the spiritual vassal prc requires spellcasting, does that mean a servant soul with the initiate soul or martial soul acfs cant qualify? This doesn't really make sense to me as a non spellcasting servant soul should still be able to qualify.
    Really really really awesome avatar thanks to neoseph7

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by demidracolich View Post
    I have a question, since the spiritual vassal prc requires spellcasting, does that mean a servant soul with the initiate soul or martial soul acfs cant qualify? This doesn't really make sense to me as a non spellcasting servant soul should still be able to qualify.
    Hmm. It was originally intended as a way for alternate builds to get into the PrC with fewer soul levels (Soul 1/Wiz 3/Some BAB thing for instance). Changing this was on my todo list at some point, because honestly it's not worth the effort, but I forgot about it. Look for it in my next patch, along with a couple typo fixes, moving a few install abilities by one level, and possibly a spells/day change (I started hating the current S/D scaling because you get no spells per day at levels 6 or 20. I'm currently evaluating a number of alternate progressions, most of which end up giving 1-2 more spells of each level overall).*

    I sort of designed the class assuming entry at level 7, but I might end up reworking the class anyway to grant installs earlier in case people enter at level 4 (One earlier than is currently possible). Perhaps something as simple as swapping mastery with superior crafting would work.

    Oh, and now that there are a bunch of non-weapon includes I should make a note that attunement grants +1 CL to anything whose caster level scales by her include (I'll need some phrasing that includes hayate, as well as wand users like Nanoha and Anderson, TBD). Not sure what superior crafting would grant for them. All spells in the install gain heighten +1 would be the most direct analog, I suppose.

    Currently the class is just built to favor the most conventional spirit build. Even if I adapt it to support wands, Tamamo, Lutecia, and others are out of luck. There's really not much I can do about that short of making spirit-specific rules, which I'm loathe to do.

    *I know I could solve this problem by just ad-hocing a spell progression. I don't plan on doing so.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    3.2.1: New feat: Spiritual Cacophony. Elizabeth Bathory’s install phantasm now scales nausea on her con mod. Tamamo-no-Mae’s witchcraft now gains iterative attacks. Fixed some typos.
    3.3: Made a number of alterations to Spiritual Vassal to support non-casting souls as well as some souls that summon items besides weapons; granted install in it 2 levels earlier. Changed Spells/Day to an accelerated track that leads to more spells at every level past 1, as well as an increase for the highest or second-highest spell level on every level-up. Nerfed Drake’s install phantasm to only stun for 1 round.
    Changes completed. This is a slight powerup to the class mostly at low levels. The soul now gets spells slightly faster, but enters the slowdown quicker, and ends with only 1 more at every level. And no more 0 spell capstone.

    Alhandra is my next target: she looks boring to me. I plan on playing her soon so I can get an idea of how to fix that, or if it needs fixing.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    . . . I rushed in to go "you moved the spells and now level 12 is dead" then I looked again and I must need my eyes checked or something. So a nicer looking and increased ammo count on the spell slots, I can dig it. More slots means more room to use both spirit spells and generic spells.

    Spiritual Cacophony's a thing. Aside from the effective glut with ACFs and feats letting one remix the class in every which way it should be just as fine as the rest (not necessarily a bad thing, that's what we like about 3.5 anyway!). Like a caster the spells, or spirits are where the problems would crop up, and I'd expect if one had a problem with picking from a selection spontaneously they should probably make their own changes to the spirits before allowing the class. Max looks like 2, maybe 3 spirit classes could have 1/day spontaneous, but that would just be more headache for the player since even the perfect spirit is less perfect for X and more their own thing. Just like the Universaile feat I'd have given this strong consideration if it existed before the game started, but I'm happy enough with my extra ammo from Duality for pounding through problems instead of finessing them.

    Funny how Liz got buffed and then Drake got nerfed, poor bastard's a victim of his own assumed success. I actually like how Alhandra's so simple: Paladin is a simple class and she does a plain but highly effective lance charge with about as much positive energy and healing as an actual paladin can manage. I think I'd be happier with her than Cu in terms of high powered stabbing: Cu's lance gets all the press with it's cheaty auto-crit and I basically rely on that and maximized fireballs all the time. At least with Alhandra it's a standard build anyone can do of lance+horse+feats, less room for complaining and having to move around to get the charge would give other people time to act. I have seen a move similar to her positive energy burst in play before: we had a Paladin of Tyranny with Profane Lifeleech and it was quite effective at letting him just stand there and laugh at swarms of mooks on a couple occasions. Fighting a pile of skeletons I'm sure she'd feel pretty fancy, and for everything else there's lance charge.

    I don't think I mentioned Broken Phantasm before: I like the idea but it just looks way to weak. Especially since the scaling damage only kicks in if you break an install, it's not so much an alternate universal phantasms as burning a whole slightly less useful install on a crappy attack. Like most "smite" style abilities it's actually better at buffing to-hit rather than damage and 1 damage per round of install just looks pitiful even if you do it immediately. The only use I can really see is for the more useless weapons like Medea's dagger get a single decent hit in, but even in an emergency I'd take multiple swings with a high enhancement bonus over a single attack. Maybe you've seen more fights resolved on those last few hit points but I don't think I've run into a make or break situation in my games where a single smite would have saved the day, certainly not enough to spend a feat on the option to convert a much stronger resource. I'd want it to give the full damage on include or install, and maybe even double on a charge or something like the Charging Smite ACF. Junking your weapon on a charge leaves you unable to full attack (at least until 10th) but with maybe twice your level on damage could be worth it. Might be dangerous with Alhandra though. Hmm, thought maybe double enhancement bonus or something instead of adding con to attack but that's still not much damage unless you multiply it higher and then it gets crazy.

    Bonus: on considering Emiya's Rho Aias (I also noticed you changed the spelling btw), there's something that's been bugging me quite a bit. For being a shield meant to block any attack it's pretty bad at it when you consider that Wall of Force can only be vertical. It's also completely invisible but opacity can swing either way, however with all the jumping around anime characters do I expect he'd know how to make it point up. Obviously an immediate action Wall of Force is plenty crazy but using the spell as is leaves a gaping hole in defensive uses while retaining the normal version's super BC ability.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2014-08-20 at 09:20 AM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Spiritual Cacophony's a thing. Aside from the effective glut with ACFs and feats letting one remix the class in every which way it should be just as fine as the rest (not necessarily a bad thing, that's what we like about 3.5 anyway!). Like a caster the spells, or spirits are where the problems would crop up, and I'd expect if one had a problem with picking from a selection spontaneously they should probably make their own changes to the spirits before allowing the class. Max looks like 2, maybe 3 spirit classes could have 1/day spontaneous, but that would just be more headache for the player since even the perfect spirit is less perfect for X and more their own thing. Just like the Universaile feat I'd have given this strong consideration if it existed before the game started, but I'm happy enough with my extra ammo from Duality for pounding through problems instead of finessing them.
    Since Cacophany locks you out from Duality, I would take it for one spirit type at the most in most games. I built it mostly for Devoted Souls - now they have a feat chain that lets them be pseudo-class specialists but still bust out 500 install rounds on their hero when they need it.

    I decided around when I made my first ACF (Class specialist, for the record) that I would just keep making ACFs and feat chains instead of multiple base classes. It appeals to me on a number of levels. I've said a few times that I like how "I'm playing a servant soul" can tell someone effectively nothing about your build or role. I also just find it easier to not have to repeat a whole bunch of boilerplate, especially as I keep closing loopholes or adding wrinkles and the class gets more involved (for the record, I really like the weapon transformation I added 3.2. I think it really improved action economy at lower levels, when a soul can't be included the entire encounter). And I've probably said this before, but I love making meaningful build decisions, and I like that you don't have to leave the class to get some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Funny how Liz got buffed and then Drake got nerfed, poor bastard's a victim of his own assumed success.
    Actually, Liz used to scale on 1/2 Soul level, so scaling by con mod is a nerf on the upper levels. It just generally makes her flatter and uses con again, which I like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I actually like how Alhandra's so simple: Paladin is a simple class and she does a plain but highly effective lance charge with about as much positive energy and healing as an actual paladin can manage. I think I'd be happier with her than Cu in terms of high powered stabbing: Cu's lance gets all the press with it's cheaty auto-crit and I basically rely on that and maximized fireballs all the time. At least with Alhandra it's a standard build anyone can do of lance+horse+feats, less room for complaining and having to move around to get the charge would give other people time to act. I have seen a move similar to her positive energy burst in play before: we had a Paladin of Tyranny with Profane Lifeleech and it was quite effective at letting him just stand there and laugh at swarms of mooks on a couple occasions. Fighting a pile of skeletons I'm sure she'd feel pretty fancy, and for everything else there's lance charge.
    I agree, more or less, that Alhandra is effective in her role. I just find her boring. I want to give her a few small tweaks that make her interesting, I just have to figure out what they are first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I don't think I mentioned Broken Phantasm before: I like the idea but it just looks way to weak. Especially since the scaling damage only kicks in if you break an install, it's not so much an alternate universal phantasms as burning a whole slightly less useful install on a crappy attack. Like most "smite" style abilities it's actually better at buffing to-hit rather than damage and 1 damage per round of install just looks pitiful even if you do it immediately. The only use I can really see is for the more useless weapons like Medea's dagger get a single decent hit in, but even in an emergency I'd take multiple swings with a high enhancement bonus over a single attack. Maybe you've seen more fights resolved on those last few hit points but I don't think I've run into a make or break situation in my games where a single smite would have saved the day, certainly not enough to spend a feat on the option to convert a much stronger resource. I'd want it to give the full damage on include or install, and maybe even double on a charge or something like the Charging Smite ACF. Junking your weapon on a charge leaves you unable to full attack (at least until 10th) but with maybe twice your level on damage could be worth it. Might be dangerous with Alhandra though. Hmm, thought maybe double enhancement bonus or something instead of adding con to attack but that's still not much damage unless you multiply it higher and then it gets crazy.
    Broken phantasm is a victim of two opposing thought processes. On the one hand, I really want to make it possible for a servant soul to go really, really nova, because I find that cool. Something like blowing multiple includes/installs in a full attack for massive buffs. It's just such a cool boss finisher/all-or-nothing gambit.

    On the other hand, I find that spike damage is an easy way to make apparent class imbalance and is frowned upon by a lot of people that spend their time frowning upon things. And yes, this does come from the guy that wrote Cu.

    So I settled on "you can blow through you includes for to-hit bonuses, but the installs are where the money is." It's basically the "generic phantasm" that you can use with any spirit, but isn't too amazing. I agree that it ends up weak in practice. Basically it ends up as "if your include/install is ending anyway and you don't want to pop it with a phantasm, might as well get a to-hit and damage bonus." My rationale for making it this way is that you'll run into this situation a decent amount as a servant soul (some phantasms are too specific or unsuited to many circumstances when in melee). This also frees up the player for riskier spirit picks, since they can just choose to use a spirit as a weapon + broken phantasm battery.

    That said, even if it is good when used in this extremely conservative fashion - and I don't really know because I haven't tested it - it's boring. "My include's ending, I don't need to HIPS, better get +Con to hit with my bow." A few ideas to buff it:
    • Double the damage bonus, or just on a charge.
    • Install only ends at the end of your action, so you can full-attack. Leads to a slight issue where you might be able to attack, then use some swift action phantasm or something with it, I'd have to check the interactions or specifically ban it.
    • Give it interaction with normal phantasms? Probably not.
    • Something else????

    Also note that there's no way to way to lose an attack on a charge as a straight servant soul, because the only way the straight servant soul can pounce is with phantasms, and broken phantasm can only be used with normal attacks.

    Next project: I'm trying to make a prestige class that grants a new spirit every level. Here's my outline so far:
    D6 HD
    0 BAB (as Survivor), but Installs give +1 attack/level.
    Casting as normal
    Probably normal skills, maybe 2+Int.
    Poor will save.

    Still too powerful? The thing is, with that many spirits, you're basically installed all day so the only thing it loses is iteratives and some chassis penalties.
    I could also forgive the chassis penalties - D8 HD, 4+Int, good will - but in exchange you can only include each spirit 1/Day. Seems odd to take away a spammable ability when you enter a class, is my thing. I thought through a few scaling restrictions and don't like them too much. Like 1/15 minutes at level 1, 1/30 minutes at level 2, 1/hour includes at level 3, 1/2hr at level 4, then 4, then 8, 12, and finally 1/Day.

    Of course, if I go through with this, I'll have to mod a few ACFs to support it. But that's not uncommon.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Do Anything, Be Anyone. With just a bit of help... [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Also note that there's no way to way to lose an attack on a charge as a straight servant soul, because the only way the straight servant soul can pounce is with phantasms, and broken phantasm can only be used with normal attacks.
    The attack is lost next round when you have to spend a move action to include a new weapon (until 10th level). So if Broken Phantasm had an extra charge benefit it would have a bit of opportunity cost in that you'd give up full attacking the next round, kinda, was the idea.
    Next project: I'm trying to make a prestige class that grants a new spirit every level. Here's my outline so far:
    That seems like a very bad idea, at least if it can be used with the base class. I could see an accelerated progression style class that gives you a ton of spirits but with really short durations so you're forced to re-install during every fight. Or since you want to pick on includes just no includes or no include phantasms but I think low duration or ending install on phantasm would hurt more since otherwise there really is no downside. In any case I'd want it to wall off the original class., like Ur-Priest where if you had divine casting it's no longer usable because you went Ur-Priest. If it did work in conjunction with the base class then no more than 5 levels.

    The problem I fear is that we're approaching wizard territory where there's so many "spells" it's considered okay to know way more just because you don't technically know them all. It costs a normal Servant Soul two feats to get the same benefit of learning an extra spirit as they would get in two class levels, making spirit acquisition a solidly level-based commodity. A PrC that gives 1/level throws that away and makes Duality a chump feat. Or for a worse metaphor, it's like if Metamind and straight Psion switched places: you get more "power to burn" from free powers longer durations and includes in the base class Metamind Servant Soul, but the PrC gets twice as many installs and thus full strength phantasms like how Psion levels get twice as many powers known and higher level powers faster than a Metamind. As you've noted, BAB +0 only matters if you're actually making attacks, outside of installs, while high con phantasm spamming is already doable with the base class.

    That said, I've basically been ignoring PrCs up to this point so it won't affect me much. Since there's one for comboing caster spirits with actual caster classes that's a pretty high bar so maybe it'd be fine even if it turns out super strong. I'll admit I've become rather biased against PrCs over the years as every single class becomes nothing more than an entry for this or that PrC, and this class so far has been a perfect example of not doing that. The existing super-specialist and caster-theurge are natural enough and being specialists they're not for everyone, but a PrC for install spamming just feels too close to "the base class but better!" for my taste even if you found a way to make the mechanics perfect. Then there'd need to be a PrC for include spamming and so on and once there's a PrC for every aspect you're effectively punished for not taking one unless you intentionally find the one build idea that hasn't been PrC'd.

    I'm sure that once you finish writing it and put up some sample builds I could be convinced it's not broken (as you did with Nanoha), but I'd still be harrumphing about it being inappropriate (Nanoha is always appropriate)

    Session update: managed to browbeat the party into just going and fighting the guy at his hideout instead of fancy talky stuff (if you already know where he is than following him back from the meeting is pointless >.<). Got lucky and won all the initiative, forgot Hassan's Delusional Hearbeat was a will save, shut down the caster anyway, then shut down the Barbed Devil. Failed the third and final DH on the guy apparently in charge but the wizard dropped Black Tentacles on him which worked plenty long enough for the rest of the party to catch up (them and the NPCs chewed up everything else: Chain Devils and Swashbuckler mooks, Rogues cleaned house). DM was extremely sour.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2014-08-25 at 06:08 AM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul. Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    The attack is lost next round when you have to spend a move action to include a new weapon (until 10th level). So if Broken Phantasm had an extra charge benefit it would have a bit of opportunity cost in that you'd give up full attacking the next round, kinda, was the idea.
    I guess I could fix that, but it only matters levels 8 and 9. Well, you lose AoOs before then, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    That seems like a very bad idea, at least if it can be used with the base class. I could see an accelerated progression style class that gives you a ton of spirits but with really short durations so you're forced to re-install during every fight. Or since you want to pick on includes just no includes or no include phantasms but I think low duration or ending install on phantasm would hurt more since otherwise there really is no downside. In any case I'd want it to wall off the original class., like Ur-Priest where if you had divine casting it's no longer usable because you went Ur-Priest. If it did work in conjunction with the base class then no more than 5 levels.
    You're right, in the form that I posted above.

    I haven't finished tinkering with the idea - hence why I haven't published it. Let's say includes got to 1/Hour at level 1. A one-level dip would cost a feat (Install Universale makes sense, no?). Some groups never have multiple encounters within an hour, so their only loss is out-of-combat utility (Anderson and Alhandra's healing, Hayate's full-CL buffs, Vita and Arturia's destruction, Shirou and Black Knight's utility weapons, Soveliess and Lidda's skill use, Bluebeard's spell slot savings, Medea and Joan's magical disable device, Mialee's use-specific spell spam, Drake's swimming, Lutecia's varied flying summons, and Gawain's +3 to whatever). They'd lose that, as well as 1 BAB, as well as not be closer to mastery, plus the chassis pain. Worth a heroic spirit? Very possibly, but it's not a shoo-in.

    Currently planning a 5-level class, 1 spirit known per level. 1 include/Hour, 1/3 Hours, 1/6 Hours, 1/12 Hours, 1/Day at the capstone. Which means only your installs, for those keeping track, since installing... erm... includes an include. And bye to 5 HP, 10 SP, +2.5 Will save, 5 BAB outside installs, and your last iterative before 20th level. And Heroic Spirit Mastery? Yeah, never happening before epic. That's a better tradeoff, I think.

    Of course, If I made an iconic, it would spoil you. One strike against!

    3.4: Introduced a new adaptation: Infused Soul, for players that like binders. Fate's sonic move requires LOE. Diarmuid's shortspear is explicitly a light weapon. Increased Corpse Swallower's range to 30 feet/level. Updated Miyu, Kuro and Luvia's increased spells per day, and slightly reworded Miyu's fluff block.
    3.4.1: Buffed both of Gawain’s phantasms (Numeral of the Saint no longer ends an include, and Knight of the Sun hits with an AoE even if the roll misses). Nero’s Aurea now requires an extra save. Modified devoted soul to qualify for a few things it was missing.
    Infused Soul is a bit closer to what I wanted from binder, although I admit the flavoring isn't nearly as fleshed out. Basically, I don't mind it that much when a class violates the fluff/mechanics divide like the Binder did, but I do mind it when you can roll badly and be forced to perform certain actions. In my opinion, systems like that work better when you instead give small (or medium) mechanical incentives to act in line with the infused personality. Something like this, for instance. I'm not going to say "Every time you install Anderson, make a will save or you can't attack." I'll just give you a penalty to save DCs and touch attack rolls and let you figure it out. /rant

    The actual balance is a bit all over the place, although I tried to match "things that come up often" with more of the same. I'll probably tinker with a number of them, I just wanted to get the idea out first. It's a variant rule instead of an ACF because mixing infused souls in a party with normal servant souls would be a Bad Thing, or at least a Really Weird Thing, fluffwise.

    On another note, I think the heroic spirit subsystem is large enough to be called a "tome." Tome of the Holy Grail is the obvious move, although I can always use Waver's "Tome of Arcane Secrets." It's from the source, I just don't think it's as germane to the project. Maybe "Tome of Akasha: the Heroic Spirit System. Draw Power From Legends." Thoughts?

    Current Work: Buffing Lidda's include. First idea was swapping her crappy sword to a set of MWK thieves tools that gives trapfinding and some skill bonuses. I'm currently tinkering with it. Something like: "Lidda summons a set of tools useful for the work at hand. These give her a circumstance bonus to skills equal to her normal enhancement bonus (minimum +1), and apply to a number of skills of her choice equal to that same number. In addition, she may use those skills untrained, and if the selected skills include search or disable device, she gains trapfinding for the duration."

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul. Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I guess I could fix that, but it only matters levels 8 and 9. Well, you lose AoOs before then, I suppose.
    Right, 3/4 BAB, yeah that doesn't matter much then.
    Of course, If I made an iconic, it would spoil you. One strike against!
    Agreed. Even saying that much could make me think things I'd have preferred not thinking of until they happened, but one can only be so vague without losing all meaning
    Infused Soul (variant)
    I'll go over them in detail eventually, but what I noticed skimming is a lot of save penalties. With the base number being 2 and penalties being double the bonus, that means a ton of them give -4 or more on various or all saves. Saving throws I've found are not nearly as polarized as some people think, but having -4 or more will actually swing it far enough they start being right. Agreed that they are much more interesting than the Binder penalties. Personally I'd only apply them when installing spirits since I find multiple "zomg quirks" in one person weird and it's a lot of stuff to worry about if they're all active always, and of course installing is when you're actually closest to the spirit.
    On another note, I think the heroic spirit subsystem is large enough to be called a "tome." Tome of the Holy Grail is the obvious move, although I can always use Waver's "Tome of Arcane Secrets." It's from the source, I just don't think it's as germane to the project. Maybe "Tome of Akasha: the Heroic Spirit System. Draw Power From Legends." Thoughts?
    I don't recognize (remember?) the name Akasha so I'll pretend I didn't hear that While I'd like to go with Waver's book it probably won't hook people. (Or will it? People love their arcane caster variants.) So I'd go with Tome of the Holy Grail: The Heroic Spirit System. Draw Power From Legends. This does bring up a point: systems are usually meant to be built on with more base classes and whatnot, so their mechanics are somewhat portable. As evident from working on the "tons of spirits" PrC, it's hard to change anything from the base include/install mechanic, and instead of multiple base classes it's built with every ACF option possible. So I feel that system isn't quite the right word (and normally when I see a new "system" it isn't nearly this good or ever gets finished). So actually I'd go with something like Tome of the Holy Grail: Heroic Spirits and how to use them or ToHG: The Servant Soul. Draw Power From Legends.
    Current Work: Buffing Lidda's include. First idea was swapping her crappy sword to a set of MWK thieves tools that gives trapfinding and some skill bonuses. I'm currently tinkering with it. Something like: "Lidda summons a set of tools useful for the work at hand. These give her a circumstance bonus to skills equal to her normal enhancement bonus (minimum +1), and apply to a number of skills of her choice equal to that same number. In addition, she may use those skills untrained, and if the selected skills include search or disable device, she gains trapfinding for the duration."
    Ah, much more appropriate. Also reminds me to ask: what happens with all the new non-weapon includes and Legacy Hero? I would expect some of them to still function except so far I'm pretty sure the ruling has been "mix and match feats and ACFs with the wrong spirits and it's your own fault." In particular, Lutecia's bug summoning is completely nullified. Every time I consider building a Legacy Hero I realize at least one spirit I want is rendered useless that way so I figured I'd check.
    Edit: on the other hand, Shirou's works fine. I could have sworn Overedge lasted until the weapon disappeared so there'd be a reason to not dissolve them every round other than swift actions but I guess not?

    Session update: found out just how sour the DM was last session. That was a level 14 wizard I KO'd with Delusional Heartbeat and he rage deleted the sheet so we didn't even know what loot there was to find. He'd fully expected to kill someone that fight, hence the NPC backup. This session we had a lot of interrogating and talking and planning followed by ambushing and stabbing. Every session I lament the rocket tag game: last three fights were lose initiative and get full attacked before I act, win initiative and lockdown everything, then lose initiative and get full attacked before I act again. So I'll be changing my item priorities to initiative post-haste. The only Servant Soul thing I did was respond to the target's full attack with the usual bard-boosted Spear of Barbed Death and order him to surrender before I did it again. Hence the desire to win initiative so I don't have to resort to that every time. (Other party memebers: wizard threw scorching rays point blank after being cornered, rogue used a grizzly bear to grab 'n stab, tank kicked the door back through someone's face, and the bard finished off the guy who went for the wizard. Combat only lasted 1 1/2 rounds since he surrendered immediately.)
    Last edited by Fizban; 2014-09-03 at 08:45 AM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Vortalism's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    I love what you've done with translating TYPE-Moon's massive Fate series lore into a digestible D&D friendly subsystem for handling Heroic Spirits, but I was just wondering... Where's Gilgamesh?

    Or would he be too OP? Seeing as he fires just about a thousand and one different magic weapons at his opponents and has a freaking jet.

    Last edited by Vortalism; 2014-09-03 at 03:17 AM.
    Avatar by Kris On a Stick.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    Spoiler: Fate/Stay Night+Unlimited Blade Works
    Show
    Unfortunately, Gilgamesh never recovered after Shirou whipped the smug off his face and beat the snot out of him for being a whiny useless git. His ego destroyed, the throne of heroes rejected what was left of Gilgamesh and none have seen him appear since.
    Just my personal opinion Looking forward to the remake and next movie, hopefully this time the movie will be a bit more coherent.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    Fizban:
    On infused soul: The number of save penalties was a product of lack of creativity. I tried to keep them each one somewhat unique: Soveliess -will because he's a coward, Elizabeth takes a penalty if she screws up an attack and is embarrassed, Ember takes penalties on practically nothing (poisons, nonmagical traps, and a few special attacks), Drake -Fort was a bit random I admit, Iskander take a penalty on area spells that I justified as a "he feels for his men" situation, Arturia has a similar martyr complex but gives a huge benefit so she got a larger penalty, and Bazzett was always just a swap. Side note: How do you like bazzett?

    I decided on infused soul affecting includes for a number of reasons. First is that installs are only 1/Day/Spirit, and second is that installs start at level 6. The end result is that installs of any given spirit are (a) rare, and (b) don't even up up for a while. Basically, if you wanted to roleplay something actually affecting your personalty, it might make more sense if you spend a couple minutes per day doing it than if you spend 24 seconds per day (depending on phantasms, shorter).

    The third reason is that just giving mechanical changes in installs makes it just a variation on installs, and not really a new mechanic. "Installs now do this new thing," who cares? The fourth reason is that, and this will sound really hypocritical, I don't like installs giving drawbacks over includes. Like, I know they limit casting, but that's as far as I wanted to take it. Besides the occasional spell issue, I want the only tradeoff between includes and installs to be the opportunity cost of going nova. I'd have it if someone was walled off from installs because doing one crippled them, and imo that's less likely to happen with just spell hits.

    The fifth reason is for specific mechanical interactions. For instance, spiritual vassal and spirit specialization. I like them affecting your mind a little all the time. Also, install universale now gives you two sets of infusions at once, and I want to see that in play because it sounds hilarious.

    I'll get to why I don't want "Servant Soul" in the thread name in a bit... Oh, and Akasha is a religious concept of the repository of all knowledge. It contains the "templates" of heroic spirits that are instantiated for grail wars, because it contains, well, everything. Some mages, like Tohsaka Tokiomi, wish to win the grail so that they might access Akasha and learn all knowledge for themselves and become the ultimate mage. Others, like Araya Souren, have other uses for it (sometimes translated as "Radix," "Ultimate" or "Origin").

    Legacy Hero: In my defense, the ACF was built to adapt a D&D subsystem that just makes you worse if you use it (all weapons of legacy are garbage). So is it that bad that it's only situationally useful? More seriously, it doesn't work equally with everything, but its real advantage is that you can make one badass weapon with all the enchants you want, take spirits that only use that weapon type (or no weapon type), then be awesome with full BAB and iteratives. Makes sense that if you actually were using a weapon of legacy, you'd avoid spirits that weren't centered on weapons, no?

    Vortalism:
    I've been over Gilgamesh a huge number of times, trying to adapt him in a way that keeps roughtly to the mechanics of the system, while still presenting his powers, while still being balanced. He began as a prestige class, then I made him into an ACF, then a feat chain, then a prestige class again, then an ACF again. Currently I'm planning a Gilgamesh base class, Heroic Progenitor or something, I'm bad with names.

    The class is centered around three essential powers:
    1. Gilgamesh can include any spirit's weapon.
    2. Gilgamesh has an install.
    3. Gilgamesh has Gate of Babylon.

    My current plan is this:
    1. Gilgamesh gets 1 general include/day at level 1, which goes up every other level. Thus he gets 2 includes/day at 3, 3 at 5, etc.
    2. Gilgamesh gets access to his install at level 6. Current plan is to grant 1 Install at 6 and 1 every other level after (2 at 8, 3 at 9, etc). His installs would boost all of his physical stats, and possibly give him other abilities, like bonuses mind blank, bonuses to spellcraft/knowledge/appraise checks, and 1/install can treat a natural 1 as a 20.
    3. Gate of Babylon is a phantasm not tied to his install, and has daily uses at well. It's some giant AoE nuke, obviously, on the scale of Hayate's and maybe more powerful. Probably granted at level 2 and every 3 levels after (possibly every 2 levels after, this whole thing is pretty in flux).
    4. If he spends a feat, he can spend uses of Gate of Babylon to access Enkidu, Chains of Heaven. It's a single-target no-save effect that entangles the opponent and keeps them from moving and attacking, but can be broken with strength/escape artist. the DCs are +1 against magical beasts, +2 against fey, +3 against elementals, +4 against dragons and +5 against outsiders.
    5. He probably gains spells, full BAB (install won't increase attacks), and a reasonably high hit die. I'm thinking I'd use a mystic Ranger-style spell progression, where they keep him strong through early levels, but eventually he no longer needs them because his class powers scale up enough.

    So... still in the conceptual stages, but I like it better than my previous attempts. It's also why I'd rather call the subsystem a tome: despite my previously ACFtastic approach, I've finally found a concept that changes enough to warrant a new base.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Servant Soul: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    Spoiler
    Show
    Bazzet in the show? Well as you can imagine from my view of Gilgamesh, I really hate characters that are just arbitrarily overpowered (even some protagonists). I might have been annoyed to find out I'd been "spoiled" on the existence of the character, but in this case it was countered by the reduction in annoyance at a Marty Stu from knowing about them in advance, even if I didn't know much other than "so badass he gets his own ACF." Note that I'm only on episode 8: I expect the next two episodes will be another massive fight like dark saber but we can talk again in a couple weeks when the season's over.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    I decided on infused soul affecting includes for a number of reasons.
    I missed the detail there, I thought it was always on all the time. That makes enough sense, helps if you play up the weapon not being a weapon but a portion of the spirit's legend (since even the DM barely knows what my class does I just say "I summon X" all the time, though the tank's player has heard enough he usually knows what I'm saying).
    Legacy Hero: In my defense, the ACF was built to adapt a D&D subsystem that just makes you worse if you use it (all weapons of legacy are garbage).
    Well yeah but that's why they won't be using legacy weapons: Ancestral Relic and/or expensive sword and/or buffed sword is the way to go. Hmm, you might want to change "ranged" to "projectile" since thrown weapons are ranged and that would let someone use one weapon for everything. Of course I'd love to see a reason to use a Trident for once. I'd put the main advantage another way: with full BAB you're just as good with includes as installs (not counting the stat buffs of course). The closest thing to an Include specialist, take Increased Output and spirits focused on their first phantasms and ignore all but one or two installs. Would save on actions in the 10-13 range before Quicker Install can get to a swift action, and there might be some things that make saving swift actions worthwhile after that.
    Gilgamesh
    I assume by Including their weapons you mean he also gets their phantasms since that's part of Include, but I don't know of him actually using anyone else's phantasm cause ya know, it's theirs and not his. He claims to own everything but that's it: a bunch of flying swords that just fly around (with some exceptional weapons that have their own superpowers). Some spirits have phantasms that are just their copy of a magic weapon, but a lot of the Include phantasms here are based on the spirit's skill and not the weapon so even if it's mechanically sound it makes me because screw that guy
    Last edited by Fizban; 2014-09-06 at 07:16 AM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bekeleven's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    4.0: New Base Class: Legacy Gatekeeper! Create portals to the vaults of the king’s treasury and requisition weapons, shields, goods, and magical flying machines. Comes with two feats and two ACFs, and integrates into the tome’s feats, prestige classes, and heroic spirits. Buffed Lidda’s include to summon tools instead of a crappy sword. Reduced penalties in Arturia and Signum’s infusions.
    OK, that was fun. New base class! The Legacy Gatekeeper's vaults are a bit more powerful than noble phantasms, which makes sense as using any of them requires expenditure of a limited daily resource. The class can go reasonably nova (1/2 level + charisma requisitions in one encounter). It has a significantly better chassis than the servant soul, but fewer installs at every level. Further, it can use more of its highest level spells in day if you do nothing else with your resources, but why would you?

    The class is a bit less feat-hungry than the soul, not in that you won't blow feats on it, but in that it deliberately doesn't qualify for the majority of servant soul feats. The class gets a single spirit known at level 6, and it still fails to fall into a spirit type, meaning you can take spirit affinity but not empowered install, alternate hero, etc.

    It can also grant flight at level 3 (and does so without turning your build into a one-trick pony), but alter self exists, so oh well.

    The class is currently fluff-lite and there are a few spots in other areas where I should clean up language. I'll get to it as soon as I figure out a good general term for heroic spirit at once. Tome of radiance beat me to Evoker by a year or two, and other terms with the same meaning (Theurge, etc.) are rather trampled in D&D vocabulary as well.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw Power From Legends. [3.5]

    I want to play a Legacy Gatekeeper so badly.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •