Killing the JLA, or, How Are These People Still Alive?

[Anteros]

Wait, Superman actually one shot Captain Marvel in the comics? In the video game I got the impression that Superman killed Billy Batson before he had a chance to transform because Superman didn't want to risk the possibility of losing to a similarly powered enemy. That is kind of messed up.

Also, why do they even need the super pill in the comics? In the video game it makes sense to explain why they are all fighting in one on one brawls ala Mortal Kombat, but in the comic couldn't they just use the same sort of plot armor / inconsistent super powers they always do?

Also, did anyone notice that in the video game they never undo the super pill? So all the people from the mainline universe who went over there are in theory still super, like the Joker is now bullet proof?

He killed him in the game by sending heat vision through his eyes. Marvel's guard was down and he wasn't expecting Supes to go from casual conversation to murder at the time.

The super pill is implied to wear off after a period of time. It's required to exist in the comics because they're slowly building up to the game storyline. It's the same continuity.


Fan, the it is possible to disagree with someone without being angry and condescending. If you make an effort to do so, I will be happy to debate these points with you. Otherwise I will simply state that I disagree and move on.

[Talakeal]

He killed him in the game by sending heat vision through his eyes. Marvel's guard was down and he wasn't expecting Supes to go from casual conversation to murder at the time.

In the game he talks like a teenager, Superman calls him Billy, and says "Shaz" as Superman interrupts and kills him. To me that implies that he is still Billy Batson and Superman takes him out before he could transform, but he is wearing the Captain Marvel costume at the time, so I suppose it is possible either way.

[Fan]

In the game he talks like a teenager, Superman calls him Billy, and says "Shaz" as Superman interrupts and kills him. To me that implies that he is still Billy Batson and Superman takes him out before he could transform, but he is wearing the Captain Marvel costume at the time, so I suppose it is possible either way.

I believe it was more implied that he was going to use his AOE attack because he was surrounded by various other superheroes of roughly superman's level before switching back. The Bolt from the transformation hitting someone else actually does quite a bit of damage and it's a tactic he's employed before to get out of tight situations.

He doesn't exactly own the costume either, it comes with the transformation, and he's never showed up to any previous justice league meetings as Billy Batson.

There's no reason to believe that beyond speculation though I suppose it's more of a "Choose your poison" type of deal as the credence either way is as much theory as fact and both are awful out of character moments.

Anyway it goes, Captain Marvel isn't someone you should be one shotting as anyone short of The Spectre.

[Anteros]

In the game he talks like a teenager, Superman calls him Billy, and says "Shaz" as Superman interrupts and kills him. To me that implies that he is still Billy Batson and Superman takes him out before he could transform, but he is wearing the Captain Marvel costume at the time, so I suppose it is possible either way.

He looks like Shazam, so unless Billy got extremely buff he was transformed.

[Devonix]

In the game he talks like a teenager, Superman calls him Billy, and says "Shaz" as Superman interrupts and kills him. To me that implies that he is still Billy Batson and Superman takes him out before he could transform, but he is wearing the Captain Marvel costume at the time, so I suppose it is possible either way.

The game is an alternate dimension but not in the future. Everyone is the same age as their regular continuity counterparts.

Also He says Shazam when activating most attacks not just transforming.

[Aquillion]

Anyway it goes, Captain Marvel isn't someone you should be one shotting as anyone short of The Spectre.

Of course!

My new plan to beat the JLA. Step 1: Be The Spectre.

[Talakeal]

The game is an alternate dimension but not in the future. Everyone is the same age as their regular continuity counterparts.

Also He says Shazam when activating most attacks not just transforming.

Wait, its not in the future? Well that raises all sorts of questions. The first one is why the same scheme that caused superman to go nuts in the first place is what sends the alternate universe heroes over iirc.

[Anteros]

Wait, its not in the future? Well that raises all sorts of questions. The first one is why the same scheme that caused superman to go nuts in the first place is what sends the alternate universe heroes over iirc.

It is 5 years in the future and Joker never pulled this scheme in the main continuity. They got pulled over during a different scheme of his.

[Fan]

Of course!

My new plan to beat the JLA. Step 1: Be The Spectre.

It'd work too. Spectre ain't no joke.

[Talakeal]

It is 5 years in the future and Joker never pulled this scheme in the main continuity. They got pulled over during a different scheme of his.

Ok, that makes sense.

[Devonix]

Ok, that makes sense.

The two universes are running concurrently. The game takes place 5 years after the event that triggered Supes to go over the edge. But the characters and universes are the same ages in both dimensions

[Traab]

It'd work too. Spectre ain't no joke.

Superman would just grab the spear of destiny again. He has already managed to fight off its taint before, so there is no reason to expect he couldnt do so again.

[Talakeal]

Does anyone know if shining knight's sword could kill Superman? Assuming it was wielded by someone quick enough to hit him of course.

For anyone who doesnt know, shining knights sword is enchanted to be able to cut through anything.

[Fan]

Does anyone know if shining knight's sword could kill Superman? Assuming it was wielded by someone quick enough to hit him of course.

For anyone who doesnt know, shining knights sword is enchanted to be able to cut through anything.

Yes, any magic weapon if wielded by someone strong enough could kill Superman.

Dude cuts himself on Diana's sword all the time and it's just forged by Hephaestus.

Also @Trabb: I assume no one time power ups barring special scenarios, however, if Superman were allowed prep to do things like Sundip and put on his warsuit he'd be able to at least fight on par. Alternatively we could pull out Captain Marvel Superman (The Captain Marvel that attained the power of every magic user in the universe temporarily to fight The Spectre. Superman has donned Captain Marvel's transformation before to deal with Gods in magic dimensions. The Spectre had to be hauled away after fighting Captain Marvel with that level of power up.).

[Traab]

Yes, any magic weapon if wielded by someone strong enough could kill Superman.

Dude cuts himself on Diana's sword all the time and it's just forged by Hephaestus.

Also @Trabb: I assume no one time power ups barring special scenarios, however, if Superman were allowed prep to do things like Sundip and put on his warsuit he'd be able to at least fight on par. Alternatively we could pull out Captain Marvel Superman (The Captain Marvel that attained the power of every magic user in the universe temporarily to fight The Spectre. Superman has donned Captain Marvel's transformation before to deal with Gods in magic dimensions. The Spectre had to be hauled away after fighting Captain Marvel with that level of power up.).

Yeah I know its a power up, but I figured its one that has actually happened in canon. Sort of like, "What happens when thor and hulk fight?" We dont have to wonder, its happened, this was the result. (I assume its happened) It wasnt a, "Well, if superman does this that grabs this power up and then fights during the ides of march, he can win"

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The more important points on killing the Justice League in a null-plot environment that would remove their plot armor is A) that there also isn't any executive meddling to keep the status quo or B) give them the idiot ball. Thus;


Batman
1) Hey Clark, your ship survived hitting the ground like a meteor without a scratch, right? That's like, ten thousand times harder impact than a direct hit by a tank's main gun. You don't mind if I use the same alloy in the batsuit and the batmobile, and maybe a few armored suits for the other members of the League, right?
2) I will add a transparent cover over my lower jaw and eyes in my mask, maybe using the same alloy as Clark's rocket's canopy. After all, there is such a thing as highly accurate marksmen using no-recoil guns and a hypervelocity dart to the jaw can explode my whole head.
3) I will also make my suit sealed and with a self-contained air supply or air scrubber. After all, Sarin is both odorless and colorless and it is the least lethal biological warfare crap that can be sent my way and my three biggest opponents (Joker, Scarecrow, Poison Ivy) are known for their use of exactly this kind of crap. Also, I don't want to be brainwashed by Brainiac's nanites again.
4) My suit will also include a non-gun, high-power weapon to disable tough opponents. Maybe tazer gloves make with "borrowed" Apokoliptian tech. Maybe a magical knife borrowed from my girlfriend (Zatanna - Wonder Woman is Clark's now).
5) My suit will also include a life signs monitor. If I am knocked out or seriously wounded despite my preparations, the Watchtower will be set to automatically teleport me to safety.


The Flash
1) I will not run in combat unless necessary. If my running speed is near the speed of light, a leisury jog at 1/4 that speed is still faster than anyone except speedsters and Kryptonians and allows me time to observe my surroundings. No need to get tired after all or run so fast that I can't control where I go or dodge attacks.
2) I am a trained investigator and scientist. Since I can think and act about thirty million times faster than most humans (Flash Speed/top human speed = superspeed factor), I can very well spend a thousandth of a second every couple hundreds of a second to observe stuff - such as where I am going and what the bad guys are doing and how to better react. A thousandth of a second for me is still eight subjective hours of observation and thinking after all - more than enough to see every single one of the bad guys' moves coming.
3) I am cocky, not stupid. Against most enemies, I can still give one-liners while moving between letters and words to set them up and totally humiliate them. What I did to Grodd by rewiring his mind-helmet when he wasn't looking was too fun not to repeat to my other enemies.
4) I will wear the new bulletproof suit Batman made for me. Sure, I can see bullets mid-flight if I remember my combat observation routine and at my speed, bad guys would never even see me to target me but accidents and bad luck are a fact of life. Besides, that suit could take a lot more than just bullets.


Martian Manhunter
1) I'm a manhunter with centuries of experience. I will always be invisible and intangible in combat unless there's specific reason not to. Giving my enemies a target is plain dumb. And because my enemies are smart, I will always assume I'm in combat unless I am in a secure location. I can have as much fun in the Watchtower's lounge or one of my friends' places as I can on a random bar where a shapeshifting alien could set a trap for me.
2) I'm a manhunter with centuries of experience. I will use a gun, even a nonlethal one. Shooting bad guys in the back under cover of invisibility with Superman's phantom zone projector will resolve fights fast, limiting collateral damage and danger to civilians.
3) I will have the Watchtower's systems automatically teleport me to safety if my temperature spikes beyond a certain point. Fire is my weakness and despite my being invisible and intangible, my enemies might get lucky once or twice. I can always have the Watchtower teleport me back in if the team needs me.


Wonder Woman
1) Now that I'm Goddess of War and stuff, I could ask my brother Hephaestus for a more covering magical armor. If I still want to look like a trollop, I could have the extensions be invisible, like my jet. The smart and prepared warrior is a victorious warrior and wouldn't my enemies be unpleasantly surprised by those preparations?
2) A gift exchange with my new boyfriend is in order. Some of those Kryptonian weapons are pretty cool.
3) I will get some ambrosia, healing potions, amazon magic and the like for my League friends. My position as Queen gotta count for something.


Aquaman
1) I'm King of Altantis. Time to man up and wield the Trident of Poseidon full-time. It might look goofy but it's a mighty divine weapon that can take out the average Old One in a single hit.
2) I'm King of Atlantis. My empire has the wealth of the oceans and advanced technology beyond surface nations. Let's use it to build a couple thousand antimissile sattelites and send to space. 99% of the firepower of all surface nations comes in the form of missiles, airplanes and other projectiles. Not only will thus Atlantis have the upper hand in a potential conflict but if a sattelite could hit a missile, it could also hit most League enemies. No reason to enter dangerous fights if a couple hundred space lasers could deal with opponents. My people will be very happy with this decision.
3) I have marine telepathy. I can optimize the growth of plankton in all the seas, both promoting the growth of Atlantean herd animals and ridding the atmosphere of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide surplus. Then I can make more money for Atlantis by trading the fish surprlus to the surface. Millions of tons of fish, fish oil and biofuel will put many greedy surfacer companies out of work or cripple them (Lexcorp comes to mind), and will mean more money for Watchtower upgrades and my new SDI network.
4) 99% of all illegal weapons, all illegal slaves, all illegal drugs and all other illegal substances passes through the seas. Being King of the Seas and those criminals violating both local and international laws, I can and will deal with them while they're still in my domain and under my laws. I don't have an extradiction treaty with the US so when I sink Luthor's boat and capture him, I can deal with him as I please.
5) The majority of the Internet's info and other networks goes through underwater cables. I will tap those cables and, with the help of Batman, use that info to fight crime. It's not as if Atlantis has any information protection laws to cover those bad guys' companies and crippling the likes of Lexcorp and other corrupt companies in bed with the surfacer military could only weaken the surfacer nations in relation to Atlantis.


Superman
1) My nigh-indestructile Kryptonian suit will include an inner antiradiation layer from now on. Because kryptonite has been used far too many times against me.
2) I will never just sit there and let bullets bounce off me. The ricochets could kill innocent civilians and some bullets could be secretly kryptonite, meant to assassinate me. I will instead vaporize such projectiles with superspeed + heat vision or grab them while wearing a radiation-shielded and armored glove.
3) I will never just sit there and take explosive projectiles. Not only they cause collateral damage but some of them could be more than just explosives - they could be dirty bombs, nukes or biologicals that could kill thousands. I will always fry their detonators with x-ray + heat vision, then vaporize the projectile.
4) I will have Keelex (my kryptonian computer) scan Earth for neutrino and antineutrino sources. Then, I will exclude all sources coming from normal radioactive elements. The remaining sources will be alien radioactives, such as Kryptonite. Using my superstrength, superspeed and antiradiation armor, I will gather all such instances of alien radioactives except for a single piece Batman has and throw them into the Sun. Luthor's attempts to conceal Kryptonite in lead-covered boxes will dismally fail - neutrino/antineutrino particles are not stopped by either objects or electromagnetic or gravitic fields. As a plus, this search will locate Metallo (which I'll apprehend) and Luthor's battlesuit, which I'll have CSI scan for shed skin cells and hair.
5) I will use my micro-vision to see Luthor's DNA and compare it with that found in the battlesuit of "unknown" origin who has been repeatedly used in criminal activity. Finding them the same, I will inform the authorities and denounce Luthor publicly. Even if he doesn't consent to the DNA test, his public image will be severely hurt. Then I'll let Aquaman apprehend him the next time Luthor goes on a boat trip through his domain or flies in international airspace.
6) I will have my girlfriend teach me how to fight. Because I suck at it.
7) It's time for some gift exchange with my girlfriend. Because that magic sword that can split atoms looks awesome.
8) I will have Keelex build robots in my fortress. Then I will have those robots build more robots, Von Neumann style. There are some times - such as when Brainiac/Darkseid/Thanagarians are attacking - where an army will be very useful. There are other times where saving people after a natural disaster or performing large public works needs hundreds to thousands of hands. Thus a cubic kilometer worth of robots (roughly 500 million of them) should do.
9) I will do a sun dip daily to be fully charged in case of emergency. Alternatively, a 100-meter-wide magnifying glass addition on the Watchtower could provide sunlight ten thousand times more powerful than normal if I sit in its focusing point. Because I can take 10 minutes off every day to get a year's worth of sunlight, becoming stronger daily until I can match all threats to the planet.

[The Glyphstone]

That reads more like a list of "how to make the Justice League immortal'" than "how to kill the JLA".

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the point was "if the villains (as defined as "people who are trying to kill heroes") aren't forced into suboptimal combat patterns because status quo/DC said so, neither are the heroes" which makes the job ten times harder... At the minimum.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Traab]

I think the point was "if the villains (as defined as "people who are trying to kill heroes") aren't forced into suboptimal combat patterns because status quo/DC said so, neither are the heroes" which makes the job ten times harder... At the minimum.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

And it is a good point. But I dont think any of those prep ideas, as good as they are, would change what the actual level of skill is for being able to totally wipe out the JLA. Namely, preventing the Omniverse from coming into existence in the first place. Its the DC version of "nuke the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure" The only way to stop it is through author fiat. (Well, that and failing to retroactively destroy ALL of reality, because you are having to get The Presence to not do something. Good luck with that) I mean, I suppose if you want to be picky, you only have to destroy the DC oriented multiverse, but its best to be safe, im sure there are plenty of other multiverses with the potential to stop this from happening, or to reverse the damage if they ever learn of it so best to cover all bases.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I think the point was "if the villains (as defined as "people who are trying to kill heroes") aren't forced into suboptimal combat patterns because status quo/DC said so, neither are the heroes" which makes the job ten times harder... At the minimum.

Precisely. DC has made the stupid suboptimal choice of giving everyone the idiot ball and relying on plot armor for its heroes but if that was removed from everyone, then the Justice League, the most powerful and experienced group of super-heroes in the DC universe would not remain static.


Do keep in mind that any one of the suggested points in my previous post has been done at least once in the comics. For example, Supes did get a magical sword and combat lessons from his girlfriend in one of the recent issues. What I propose is that such "upgrades" would simply not be forgotten in subsequent issues and in fact the Justice League would strive to make them a daily SOP if not given the idiot ball. Because everyone knows for any operation to be successful over time, it has to evolve and improve.

[Metahuman1]

Precisely. DC has made the stupid suboptimal choice of giving everyone the idiot ball and relying on plot armor for its heroes but if that was removed from everyone, then the Justice League, the most powerful and experienced group of super-heroes in the DC universe would not remain static.


Do keep in mind that any one of the suggested points in my previous post has been done at least once in the comics. For example, Supes did get a magical sword and combat lessons from his girlfriend in one of the recent issues. What I propose is that such "upgrades" would simply not be forgotten in subsequent issues and in fact the Justice League would strive to make them a daily SOP if not given the idiot ball. Because everyone knows for any operation to be successful over time, it has to evolve and improve.

This gives me the mental image of Batman swallowing Asprin by the bottle while trying to break Barry and Hal out of the mold and teach them what "creative and intelligent application of powers." really means. Possibly involving a Holodeck, a black board, a couple of desks, and a couple of dunce caps like a 1930's cartoon.

[Aotrs Commander]

This gives me the mental image of Batman swallowing Asprin by the bottle while trying to break Barry and Hal out of the mold and teach them what "creative and intelligent application of powers." really means. Possibly involving a Holodeck, a black board, a couple of desks, and a couple of dunce caps like a 1930's cartoon.

Comedy gold.

DC should totally do that!

[Metahuman1]

Actually yeah. You can't even say it's him being a Bat Sue cause he's beating the shape of his cowled face into the wall in frustration and giving himself a heart problem trying to pound through there traditionally rather thick skulls.

Ok, I know Hal's not always that bad and Barry's usually better then Hal, but still. It would certainly be an improvement on "Opps, screwed over the multyverse cause I didn't think three freaking steps ahead" and "Yes, let's go to war with the other 6 corps and then stop helping people whole sale cause I said so cause of something that might happen in trillions of years if we don't!" respectively in that at least it would be humerus and therefor you could derive joy form it.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's a pretty perfect set-up, thoughk, isn't it? Batman is the perfect straight-man and it'd be even more satisfying to see his composure crack a bit in frsutration. You could send him a few more of good measure... Guy Gardener, maybe? Plastic Man? I'm sure those of you more familar with DC than me could give poor old Bats practically a full team line-up!

(Is it wrong I'm totally envisioning the How It Should Have Ended Batman voice...?)

[Metahuman1]

It's a pretty perfect set-up, thoughk, isn't it? Batman is the perfect straight-man and it'd be even more satisfying to see his composure crack a bit in frsutration. You could send him a few more of good measure... Guy Gardener, maybe? Plastic Man? I'm sure those of you more familar with DC than me could give poor old Bats practically a full team line-up!

(Is it wrong I'm totally envisioning the How It Should Have Ended Batman voice...?)

Hmmm. Guy Gardner could work, though he's actually more or less fine now that he's a Red Lantern. Then again he was more or less fine on the matter given that by the time the New 52 happened he had been successful in privet buisness via being self employed, gotten a collage degree and become a counscler, and was generally much better about being generally smart with the use of his ring.

Plastic Man could defiantly fit though. Ray Palmer could work by presenting a different problem. He has the potential for immense power (He can totally control his molecular and Atomic Structure and that of things and people within a certain vicinity to him.) so his problem would be less smarts and more finding a balance between the confidence to tap his full potential, and the ability to not sell his soul in the process (Cause the last time I saw him getting creative with his powers it was in Cry For Justice and we saw how that went.).

Dr. Fate and Zatanna also fit the bill I'd say since there's GOT to be better ways to fight bad guys then just lazer blasts and force fields when you can rewrite reality itself with words and hand signals.

I'm not familiar with Captain Atom, but being made of pure energy sounds like it should lend itself to some more creative power uses then what little I've seen of him, but then it might just be something weird about how he's getting his power that's putting the Kibash on that.

Oooh! Got one! Firestorm!



Also, Nope, not at all.

[lord_khaine]

Oooh! Got one! Firestorm!

Firestorm is actually a rather funny case, because he is a person who is only a short step away from godhood (shorter step than Superman), but he is generally wasting his time trying to come up with smart or creative uses of his power, when he instead could be using it as a hammer, and turn the air into steel (or Prometium) around his opponents.

[Jayngfet]

It'd work too. Spectre ain't no joke.

...unless of course someone brings their bullcrap super mode along. I believe Ion and an upgraded Captain Marvel have both outstripped him power wise and Cap actually outpunched him once. Order Lord Amethyst also seems to have managed it and I suspect anyone with upgrades on that tier could probably manage.


But at that point physical bodies become irrelevant. That's a standard of power that basically turns the wielder into Doctor Manhattan, for all intents and purposes, with all the physical and emotional baggage it implies.