Belkar, Durkula, and Durkon and character reform

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think it was that, assuming Durkon gets freed before Belkar dies, or Durkon gains the capacity to resurrect Belkar after he's been freed, not reviving him while he's stuck in vampire form. But I'm not that poster's thoughts, so I don't know what he meant for sure.

My point was that once Durkon is freed, he wouldn't need Belkar to fight for his autonomy, so it's not a terribly compelling reason to resurrect him. Unless the poster was saying that Durkon would be grateful to Belkar for sticking up for him, but I didn't get that from his post.

[INoKnowNames]

My point was that once Durkon is freed, he wouldn't need Belkar to fight for his autonomy, so it's not a terribly compelling reason to resurrect him. Unless the poster was saying that Durkon would be grateful to Belkar for sticking up for him, but I didn't get that from his post.

That's exactly what I was trying to say that he was trying to say (even if I may have been reading too much into his post). When you have a member of your party who knows you enough to know that the person masquerading as you isn't you, and you're loyal enough to want to sacrifice your life for him, you'd think the two of you would be friends. And friends look out for each other. And if one friend can easily bring back the dead for a few thousand gp, well, that seems like a trivial sacrifice, and the kind of thing a friend would do.

[Darth Paul]

That doesn't mean ...that it would be in any way morally wrong if Solt Lorkyurg's sister cut his throat in the next strip, or that it would be morally right if the story ended with Belkar still a living adventurer.

Actually, there's NO circumstance in which it is morally right to cut someone's throat in revenge for their past deeds, even if it's disguised as a legal system. And if Belkar figured out some way to work out his own character's redemption, "Humphrey-Bogart-in-Casablanca" style, I for one would be delighted to see him join the ranks of "actual" heroes, rather than just "defaults to hero because he's a PC," and end the story walking off into the sunset with the rest of the Order. But it's not happening, due to the prophecy.

(Incidentally, can you picture Belkar in a trenchcoat and fedora?)

If Belkar is to be punished, it should be in a lawful enough manner that it can be distinguished from him simply falling prey to some other random psychopathic adventurer, or HPoH, or his own stupidity. Otherwise it isn't justice, its just Belkar getting killed ironically.

Yup.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's exactly what I was trying to say that he was trying to say (even if I may have been reading too much into his post). When you have a member of your party who knows you enough to know that the person masquerading as you isn't you, and you're loyal enough to want to sacrifice your life for him, you'd think the two of you would be friends. And friends look out for each other. And if one friend can easily bring back the dead for a few thousand gp, well, that seems like a trivial sacrifice, and the kind of thing a friend would do.

If that was what he was trying to say, then it makes more sense. What I got from it was that Belkar was his best friend only while he was helping him regain his autonomy.

[r2d2go]

Actually, there's NO circumstance in which it is morally right to cut someone's throat in revenge for their past deeds, even if it's disguised as a legal system.

I'm not convinced. Especially in a D&D world, where some prisons are horrendously incapable of keeping people down. Basically, if your options are "disintegrate the guy and keep him down until someone blows a True Resurrection" or "keep him in jail for 18 seconds", I think the the choice is obvious. The revenge part might not be morally correct, but doing it for the safety of others, which is what legal systems tend to do? I don't think you can really say no circumstance.

On that note, I think Belkar's doing pretty okay. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure he's not doing this to help the party, but rather to replace the Durkula who sucked his blood with the Durkon who doesn't like him but will only leave him with minor wounds after healing.

[Darth Paul]

I'm not convinced. Especially in a D&D world, where some prisons are horrendously incapable of keeping people down. Basically, if your options are "disintegrate the guy and keep him down until someone blows a True Resurrection" or "keep him in jail for 18 seconds", I think the the choice is obvious. The revenge part might not be morally correct, but doing it for the safety of others, which is what legal systems tend to do? I don't think you can really say no circumstance.

A) I think you just resurrected a dead thread.

B) The choice under discussion was the morality of "slitting a throat" specifically, as revenge. Actually, it was if the gnome Solt's sister were to hypothetically show up, and slit Belkar's throat, for his killing her brother. I still disagree on the morality of killing in anything but the immediate defense of life and safety of oneself or others, even if it's society (the justice system) doing it. You aren't allowed to anticipate that one who has committed the crime of murder is likely to do it again, therefore must be preemptively killed- at least not by my standards. In fact, Elan pointed out good D&D-verse reasons not to kill Nale and the Linear Guild, but rather to throw them into Shojo's anti-magic cells (he couldn't know that there was about to be an invasion).

The logic that says "A murderer must be executed to prevent him killing again" is the same logic that says "A thief will have his hand cut off to prevent him stealing again." I'm against that, because it deprives them of the choice to not kill or steal again. I believe people can reform.

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Synesthesy]

Resurrect thread is on standard cleric spell list?

However, I think that some of the Order could handle Belkar's death. Actually, I think at least Roy may want Belkar dead, becouse in "happy ending", the illusion (wich makes the Order see what they really desires becoming true, like the marriage of Elan's parents) shows Belkar death, and neither Roy nor Elan nor Haley wish Belkar resurrected.
A Happy Ending should show a "good aligned" Belkar, or something like that. Instead, it has shown Belkar dead.

[Keltest]

Resurrect thread is on standard cleric spell list?

However, I think that some of the Order could handle Belkar's death. Actually, I think at least Roy may want Belkar dead, becouse in "happy ending", the illusion (wich makes the Order see what they really desires becoming true, like the marriage of Elan's parents) shows Belkar death, and neither Roy nor Elan nor Haley wish Belkar resurrected.
A Happy Ending should show a "good aligned" Belkar, or something like that. Instead, it has shown Belkar dead.

Remember, Roy knew that Belkar was going to die quite soon. Had he survived, it would have undermined the illusion.

[Kish]

A Happy Ending should show a "good aligned" Belkar, or something like that.

Belkar's not as important to Elan as Nale was, and his becoming good-aligned would be only marginally more plausible than Nale doing so. Besides, Roy knows about the prophecy.

[brian 333]

Has anyone considered the idea that Belkar dies permanently because Durkula tries to make him a better companion by vampirizing him, then he 'forgets' to cast the protection from sunlight spell?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Has anyone considered the idea that Belkar dies permanently because Durkula tries to make him a better companion by vampirizing him, then he 'forgets' to cast the protection from sunlight spell?

This isn't quite a permanent death, as the Order could collect his ashes and have Resurrection cast on him. Also, Belkar would probably realize that the spell wasn't cast on him when he steps into the sun.

[ChowGuy]

Perhaps fortunately, Haley is not Durkon. Or Roy for that matter. Roy has shown a willingness to stand up for Belkar even when it would be easier (and arguably better) to just leave him to die.

You're forgetting though that Roy remembers the prophecy, and has already expressed the fact that he's willing to let Belkar become "someone else' problem" if/when it comes up. Why would we he want to have Belkar raised, just to watch him die again in a week or so? He's an adequate brawler, but he's not going to be that much use against Team Evil.

There's also the consideration that before they can even think about having Durkon raise Belkar, they'll have to get Durkon raised, and that's not going to be easy (look how long it took to bring Roy back). Especially considering that they're have to scrape together all their loot just to get the Arkhane repaired. Durkon bought some dust, but even if he still has it I doubt it will be enough for two resurrections so where are they going to get that much diamond?

[Domino Quartz]

<snip>...just to get the Arkhane repaired...<snip>

What's the Arkhane?

[Amphiox]

Durkon died for Belkar. He was willing to give his very life, and risk becoming the thing he most hated (and it in fact happened!) to prevent Belkar from dying.

No way in any of the nine circles do I see Durkon being unwilling to spend the 10 minutes and the diamond to cast a Resurrect on Belkar. In fact, if he was ordered not to resurrect Belkar, I think he would protest it vigorously.

[Synesthesy]

Durkon died for Belkar. He was willing to give his very life, and risk becoming the thing he most hated (and it in fact happened!) to prevent Belkar from dying.

No way in any of the nine circles do I see Durkon being unwilling to spend the 10 minutes and the diamond to cast a Resurrect on Belkar. In fact, if he was ordered not to resurrect Belkar, I think he would protest it vigorously.

And don't forget that Belkar is the only one who understand Durklula is not Durkon. Roy, Durkon's best friend, doesn't. Belkar now deserves Durkon's friendship, Durkon is LG and Durkon will more like Belkar from this point.

However, we are all thinking how "Durkon, coming back from vampirism, can resurrect Belkar". For this, the first think we need is Durkula dead and a resurrection spell to bring Durkon back! So, either there is a Cleric who is able to resurrect people (and him can resurrect both Durkon and Belkar), or neither Durkon nor Belkar will coming back.


I think that the Giant won't make a cliché story. Belkar won't become a second undead or something, but we are not sure that Belkar will actually die. There is a lot of way to make a profecy untrue we don't even image. I think the Giant will make something like that. And if Belkar will actually die, he will die in the very last part of the story... and maybe, with Belkar's death, the Order will be no more.

[evileeyore]

What's the Arkhane?

It's a magical Airship that flies powered by wishes and the dreams of children.


No really, just shovel those sleeping kids right into the furnace...

[Keltest]

It's a magical Airship that flies powered by wishes and the dreams of children.


No really, just shovel those sleeping kids right into the furnace...

no, you put the mages in the furnace, the children are set up with a bowel of onions in order to produce tears for lubrication of all the moving parts.

[evileeyore]

no, you put the mages in the furnace, the children are set up with a bowel of onions in order to produce tears for lubrication of all the moving parts.

Mine is lubricated by the distilled tears of strippers.

It's more satisfying that way.




And I don't let mages anywhere near the ship. They'd be yoinking all the Wish fuel!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's a magical Airship that flies powered by wishes and the dreams of children.


No really, just shovel those sleeping kids right into the furnace...

Well, at least it runs on a renewable resource.

[evileeyore]

Well, at least it runs on a renewable resource.

we here at EvilE Inc are all about being a Green Company.

[hamishspence]

A) I think you just resurrected a dead thread.

Limit is 6 weeks as I recall.

[Darth Paul]

Limit is 6 weeks as I recall.

Then I was mistaken and it was just on life support.

Eeyore, are you referring to that old Prince song, "When Strippers Cry"? Or did I get that title wrong? (Never a big fan of the artist formerly known as...)

[evileeyore]

Eeyore, are you referring to that old Prince song, "When Strippers Cry"? Or did I get that title wrong? (Never a big fan of the artist formerly known as...)

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMGVMtnxXEw

Warning: NSFW (lyrics, not for foul language, but for 'foul' comedy)

[Czhorat]

Given that the OOTS will have opponents of up to epic level, there are enough ways in which Belkar can not only die, but die in a manner that he'll STAY dead, beyond Durkon's ability to fix him.

[brian 333]

We are all going with the assumption that Durkon is eventually 'cured' of his vampirism. It may well be that he is now able to return to his old homeland, since the prophecy said, "After you are dead," and he is now (un)dead. And the Mechane is on its way to the dwarven lands.

Perhaps the HPoH has some ideas on where to acquire additional clerics for Hel, starting with the priest who kicked Durkon out of his home in the first place.

[Keltest]

We are all going with the assumption that Durkon is eventually 'cured' of his vampirism. It may well be that he is now able to return to his old homeland, since the prophecy said, "After you are dead," and he is now (un)dead. And the Mechane is on its way to the dwarven lands.

Perhaps the HPoH has some ideas on where to acquire additional clerics for Hel, starting with the priest who kicked Durkon out of his home in the first place.

As a cleric, Durkon is pretty much vital to the operating power of the team. Unlike Belkar, who brings no unique abilities to the team, he cant be disposed of without replacing him in some capacity, which isn't necessarily something a writer would want to do this late into a character driven story. Since the HPoH isn't likely to cooperate with the Order on a long-term basis, and Durkon wont be in control as long as the spirit is possessing him, that pretty much leaves resurrection.

[Atomburster]

There are so many options:
D 1) Durkon remains vampirised.
D 2) Durkon will not have the requisite item(Diamond Dust) to resurrect Belkar with.
D 3) Xykon will cast soul bind on Belkar/Durkon after killing them.
D 4) Durkon is imprisoned permanently in some fashion, or cannot be brought back to life.
D 5) V somehow kept the scrolls of soul bind the dragon had, and used them on Belkar/Durkon for some reason, so no Resurrection.
D 6) Belkar will die of old age via an obscure spell or method, or does not want to return.

L 1) Belkar will somehow get the magical ability to not breathe.
L 2) Comic will end before then.
L 3) Belkar will be subject to magical alteration to such an extent that he cannot be considered Belkar. Mind Rape comes to mind, as well as Baleful Polymorph with a subsequent will save fail.
L 4) The Kobold was refering to a highly obscure definition of year, possibly an antiquated one that lasts for 18 months or something. Or that is based on Belkar's lifespan.
L 5) The Kobold was not referring to Belkar the halfling, but Belkar his pet, which he intends to kill in some manner before the year ended.
L 6) The Kobold Roy saw was somehow an illusion created via a wand, along with a greater invisibility on the Kobold himself(again, by a wand), meaning it was a fake.

...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There are so many options:
L 4) The Kobold was refering to a highly obscure definition of year, possibly an antiquated one that lasts for 18 months or something. Or that is based on Belkar's lifespan.

Word of Giant rules out this one.

[Atomburster]

OK, so if Belkar gets polymorphed via polymorph any object into an air gnome (Or Air halfling), It'd have a duration of permanent, although not instantaneous.

+5 Same Kingdom (Animal)
+2 Same Size (Both small)
+2 Same or lower intelligence (No racial changes)

I guess we can ditch L4 then, if Word of God kills it.

EDIT: It may be that the in comic world will be utterly destroyed by the Snarl, thereby negating "End of the Year" due to there not being any years anymore.